Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Sigella

The cursed libido of House Frey

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

please explain why? 

Having lots of children has not cursed Walder any more than it cursed Cregan Stark, Robert Baratheon or Lord Hightower. What has cursed him is his pride and his choice to break guest rights. 

 

 

It means apeal to popularity. "If other people do it it can't be a pattern" is an obvious fallacy and aside from making disgusting assumptions about my person its all you have brought argument-wise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/8/2018 at 6:14 PM, Sigella said:

I was just struck with this: seems like a ton of characters from House Frey is like cursed by their libido:

- Walder Frey keeps breeding even at a point where its a threat to House Frey which is grossly overpopulated,

- Gatehouse-Ami's libido shames her House at any given oppurtunity,

- Lord Walders older sister slept with a kitchen scullion got caught and handed over to lord Butterwell and lost her head in TMK,

- Black Walder sleeps around the Twins which would breed a lot of inhouse scorn,

- Petyr Pimple followed a camp follower into the BB's hands and got hanged,

- Merret Frey's misfortunes began with getting a pox from a campfollower (which might have been why he was an easy target for Wenda)

 

Its a pretty big pattern, right?

-sigh- Another anti Frey.

Walder is not the only nobleman to spray semen all over the place.  Walder's production is brought to our attention because many of his children are present at the twins.  The ones who aren't were either married off to other houses or in a career as maesters for other houses.  We don't know for a fact that Robert Baratheon wouldn't surpass Walder if the wild pig hadn't ended his life.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sigella said:

It means apeal to popularity. "If other people do it it can't be a pattern" is an obvious fallacy and aside from making disgusting assumptions about my person its all you have brought argument-wise.

It is not an obvious fallacy. You made a poor point, Walder is doomed and he has lots of children so the two must be connected somehow. 

Having plenty of heirs is not a cause of doom. We see plenty of examples of much smaller Houses who have just as much division in their ranks as the Freys and we also see some large Houses with no known division in their ranks. 

A lot of your original points were wrong, but rather than accept they were, such as your claims about Walder Frey's older sister being executed, you just ignored it and carried on with the exact same argument. You had a flawed premise. 

 

And lets be real, the Freys are low hanging fruit in the fandom. The popular thing to do is to find flaws with them, your whole argument was appealing to the popular. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, The Pink Letter said:

-sigh- Another anti Frey.

Walder is not the only nobleman to spray semen all over the place.  Walder's production is brought to our attention because many of his children are present at the twins.  The ones who aren't were either married off to other houses or in a career as maesters for other houses.  We don't know for a fact that Robert Baratheon wouldn't surpass Walder if the wild pig hadn't ended his life.  

You can easily name another house with six known characters that died or get their lives ruined because of their libido, then?

No? -sigh-

Edited by Sigella

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The author is against overpopulation.  I suppose it can be argued this practice of having a lot of children is one source of the problem.  It isn't just House Frey though.  The children of Rickard Stark (Lyanna and Brandon), King Aerys (Rhaegar), Steffon (Robert, Stannis, Renly) and Tywin (Jaime, Cersei) caused more problems than all of Walder's children put together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Well, he himself say that people spits on him and that he can't find marriages for his offspring so you are plainly wrong.

No, in the books he never claims that he can't find marriages for his offspring. You are mistaken. 

Also when does he say that people spit on him? https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=spit&scope[]=agot&scope[]=acok&scope[]=asos&povs[]=Catelyn

I can't find any reference to it. 

 

36 minutes ago, Sigella said:

 Yeah she'll have her pick from the stable boys before the BB hangs her. Lucky lucky.

lol you think the BB are targeting her because she is promiscuous? 

Ami is alive and the BB have only killed people at the Twins, not Darry. If anything she is safer because of her promiscuity thought frankly it seems bizarre to blame her for her grandfather making enemies. It is the most bizarre form of both victim blaming and slut shaming I have seen. 

 

38 minutes ago, Sigella said:

She was married off with an senior citizen who lost all his castles and 9/10's of his lands five minutes after they married, lucky lucky.

Again, how is her libido to blame for Butterwell rebelling against the Crown?

The betrothal was made while he still had all his land, you are slut shaming someone for the idiotic decisions of her husband. 

 

41 minutes ago, Sigella said:

You don't really excell at information intake do you? Sleeping with his brothers and nephews wives have zero chances of happy outcomes.

You said it ruined his life, it has not so far. He has suffered no negative repercussions for his actions. 

 

42 minutes ago, Sigella said:

On page he thinks his unfortunes started by getting a pox from a campfollower. It doesn't get much more obvious 

No, he does not. He never blames the pox for all his troubles. He is simply going over his time as a squire. 

While his fellow squire Jaime Lannister was covering himself in glory, Merrett had first caught the poxfrom a camp follower, then managed to get captured by a woman, the one called the White Fawn. Lord Sumner had ransomed him back from the outlaws, but in the very next fight he'd been felled by a blow from a mace that had broken his helm and left him insensible for a fortnight. 

 

Being captured did not ruin his life. 

 

50 minutes ago, Sigella said:

 I called your grudge against me incel bullshit and I was not wrong.

 

I don't have a grudge against you. You are reading too much into this conversation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/10/2018 at 11:38 AM, Helena Kyle said:

I am a firm believer in procreating only when the parent has the resources to properly take care of the offspring.  To that end, I don't condemn Walder for having many children because he has the resources to take care of them and he does.  Unlike the other men who produce bastards.  Walder gets an unfair amount of hate because of his role in diminishing the Starks but the things he does actually follows logic.  Mortality was high before modern medical practices came along.  It is sensible to produce many children to guarantee the family's survival.   

Yes, people gets more children when there are no birth-control except abortion too. Still: Walder in the beginning of the series (with about as many offspring as he did after he joined the Lannisters and got more lands and castles and marriages) owned one castle and was a vassal lord the Tully's. Not sustainable at all. And sure, he beat it in Steveron's head that blood is blood but with him dead things aren't so certain. 

 

I do give that old creep that he looked out for his own in contrast with Robert who doesn't give two groats. But at the same time - all Walder has done in his road to better the prospects of his House might cost him his entire House (by Arya or the BB or the wolf pack).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Walder Frey sin is to make Kings abide by their words... 

But wouldn't surprise me if he outlasts everyone.

Edited by Chancho

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the meta level: Considering that the Freys seems to be based on the twin nordic fertility deities Frey and Freya Walder is only doing what he is supposed to be doing. As ist Amy.

On the story level I think it's pretty cool since it gives the family a sort of character and background. Whether its gross or not or makes sense or not is beside the point IMO. I think the point is that it adds flavour to the story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Amris said:

On the meta level: Considering that the Freys seems to be based on the twin nordic fertility deities Frey and Freya Walder is only doing what he is supposed to be doing. As ist Amy.

On the story level I think it's pretty cool since it gives the family a sort of character and background. Whether its gross or not or makes sense or not is beside the point IMO. I think the point is that it adds flavour to the story.

Yeah, it was that thought that sparked this thread. Only with a darker twist considering the toll this behaviour takes out on them.

 

I don't know that I would deem house Frey cool, but they are obviously great enough pieces of literature to merit us sitting here analysing and arguing about them :D 

Edited by Sigella

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[mod] OK folks, remain civil with each other, thanks. If you're making things personal, you have not understood the purpose of the forum. We're all here to have fun discussing the books - not to get into slanging matches. [/mod]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All I have to contribute to this topic is a little observation concerning Ami. Her promiscuity might not be a curse but a blessing, since Lancel is unwilling to produce an heir himself. He and his wife are likely to find an agreement on that matter. I am very sure it was truly Ami's reputation that made Kevan chose this girl for his son.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

All I have to contribute to this topic is a little observation concerning Ami. Her promiscuity might not be a curse but a blessing, since Lancel is unwilling to produce an heir himself. He and his wife are likely to find an agreement on that matter. I am very sure it was truly Ami's reputation that made Kevan chose this girl for his son.

Huh? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/8/2018 at 6:14 PM, Sigella said:

I was just struck with this: seems like a ton of characters from House Frey is like cursed by their libido:

- Walder Frey keeps breeding even at a point where its a threat to House Frey which is grossly overpopulated,

- Gatehouse-Ami's libido shames her House at any given oppurtunity,

- Lord Walders older sister slept with a kitchen scullion got caught and handed over to lord Butterwell and he in turn lost his 2 castles and 9/10's of his land during their wedding celebration in TMK,

- Black Walder sleeps around the Twins which would breed a lot of inhouse scorn,

- Petyr Pimple followed a camp follower into the BB's hands and got hanged,

- Merret Frey's misfortunes began with getting a pox from a campfollower (which might have been why he was an easy target for Wenda)

 

Its a pretty big pattern, right?

George Martin has frowned on reproduction for the sake of reproduction.  That is one of the problems Havilland Tuf faced with the Suthlamese and their religion.  I am sure he would not approve of people having too many children.  Children are the byproducts of sexual relations and that is what libido leads to.  I will say libido can be managed through self-discipline.  That is what surprises me about Lord Walder. He comes across in every way a very self-disciplined and deliberate man.  He played Robb like a broken fiddle and it worked.  A man like that should be able to control his libido.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

George Martin has frowned on reproduction for the sake of reproduction. 

Walder Frey was born during the time of Great Sickness followed by a drought that lasted two years and then the Blackfyre wars and associated troubles that saw the Crown go from Dareon to the 13th in the line of succession Egg. 

Even by medieval standards, Walder was born in an era of uncertainty and would have been encouraged to procreate. It is even possible that House Frey had more members pre the Great Sickness than it does now, though they would be uncles, aunts, nephews, nieces and cousins of Lord Frey than direct descendants. 

for example look at the much younger (i'm guessing about 40 years younger) Tytos Blackwood, while he only has 7 children we are aware that he houses many more Blackwoods

"Bethany." Lord Tytos looked stricken. "I also have two brothers and a sister. A pair of widowed aunts. Nieces, nephews, cousins. I had thought you might consent …"

and as soon a Walder dies this will be what House Frey will be like, a Lord with a few children and many relatives

2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

 

 A man like that should be able to control his libido.

But his libido is fine, the bigger issue is his excellent health and that of his sons. before the war of the five kings only one son had died, he and his family are incredibly healthy. 

As long as he can house, feed and educate his offspring there is no real issue. 

 

though it could he argued that watching his arch nemesis struggle to get another son may have given him a lot of joy as he continued to produce heir after heir. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/17/2018 at 8:39 PM, Sigella said:

Yes, people gets more children when there are no birth-control except abortion too. Still: Walder in the beginning of the series (with about as many offspring as he did after he joined the Lannisters and got more lands and castles and marriages) owned one castle and was a vassal lord the Tully's. Not sustainable at all. And sure, he beat it in Steveron's head that blood is blood but with him dead things aren't so certain. 

 

I do give that old creep that he looked out for his own in contrast with Robert who doesn't give two groats. But at the same time - all Walder has done in his road to better the prospects of his House might cost him his entire House (by Arya or the BB or the wolf pack).

Walder is a popular topic on these boards.  I saw a Walder poll just now.  Walder had a plan.  He can use his children to build relations with other houses through marriage.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Helena Kyle said:

Walder is a popular topic on these boards.  I saw a Walder poll just now.  Walder had a plan.  He can use his children to build relations with other houses through marriage.  

Yeah I don't really have the soft spot lots of posters have for him. But most people don't like Cersei as much as I do so... To each our own.

 

In the beginning he couldn't because the supply was so much higher than the demand. Plus who would add the Frey chin or weasel like appearance to their gene pool without getting something real nice in return? I doubt that he would have counted on civil-war pre Roberts death hence all the stuff he got from the Lannisters wasn't always in the cards. Maybe there is a parallell to LF somewhere in Walder thriving in chaos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/9/2018 at 7:44 AM, Sigella said:

- Gatehouse-Ami's libido shames her House at any given oppurtunity,

Well, that's nothing to do with her being a Frey. Ami is Lord Walder's grandchild, through his third wife, Amarei Crakehall. All of the Crakehall women are sluts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×