Is Mace Really an Oaf?

[not an answer]

I mean, look at his careful maneuvering during Robert’s Rebellion - declaring for the Iron Throne, yet refusing to actually risk his army. I wouldn’t say he’s a good tactician but certainly a strategist:

When Robert advances on the Reach, he gives him a beating at Ashford - which seems to have been a small-scale battle, perhaps just between the vanguards? Robert knows the Tyrells command the largest host in Westeros, so he turns his army north... mission accomplished; the war is now fought on someone else’s land.

And after that, he heads straight for Storm’s End - which he besieges for the remainder of the war. No attempt to storm the castle. At the Trident, forces from the Reach are present, but Mace himself remains in the south (likely together with the larger part of his army) Why? Because Mace could not care less about his lunatic king. He wants his soldiers occupied with something that does not get them killed.

The moment it becomes clear the war is over, he immediately bends the knee; returning to the Reach with (perhaps) the most intact host of all the seven kingdoms.

Thoughts?

[The hairy bear]

I agree with you. Also, so far in the series, he has always managed to bet on the right horse and adapt quickly to changing cirumstances. Crowning Renly, then wainting until he got an offer from the Lannisters, and when in the Council playing his cards well until he managed to get up to three more lords from the Reach in the Small Council.

[John Suburbs]

I think he's an oaf. Every time he speaks it's something stupid.

In Storm:

Quote

"You are certain Lord Stark means to go north?" Lord Rowan asked. "Even with the ironmen at Moat Caillen?"

Mace Tyrell spoke up. "Is there anything as pointless as a king without a kingdom? No, it's plain, the boy must abandon the riverlands, join his forces to Roose Bolton's once more, and throw all his strength against Moat Caillen. That's what I would do."

snip

"Lord Redwyne laughed. "What is there north of the Neck that any sane man would want? If Greyjoy will trade swords and sails for stone and snow, I say do it, and count ourselves lucky."

"Truly," agreed Mace Tyrell. "That's what I would do. Let King Balon finish the northmen whilst we finish Stannis."

In Feast:

Quote

"Rosby? That...cougher? But...the matter was agreed, Your Grace. "Garth is on his way to Oldtown."

"Best send a raven to Lord Hightower and ask him to make certain your uncle does not take ship..."

A flush crept up Tyrell's thick neck. "This...your lord father assured me..."  He began to sputter.

Then his mother appeared...

It seems pretty clear that Mace is merely the figurehead in Highgarden. Lady Olenna is really the one making all the important decisions and she, correctly, sees that a union between Stark, Tully, Arryn and Baratheon is a threat to Highgarden's historical hegemony on the continent.

Mace was not all that clever during RR. He was ordered to sit at Storm's End, primarily because Aerys didn't want both the Reach and the Dornish marching large armies to the Trident. They might have ended up killing each other before the battle began.

It's well-known but rarely stated that Tarly won at Ashford. Mace wasn't even there.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I think he's an oaf. Every time he speaks it's something stupid.

In Storm:

Is this really dumb? He's talking about Robb reclaiming the north from the iron born-a course Robb did take.

24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

seems pretty clear that Mace is merely the figurehead in Highgarden. Lady Olenna is really the one making all the important decisions and she, correctly, sees that a union between Stark, Tully, Arryn and Baratheon is a threat to Highgarden's historical hegemony on the continent.

Seems to be done out of the vindictiveness of Cersi

 

24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Quote

"Rosby? That...cougher? But...the matter was agreed, Your Grace. "Garth is on his way to Oldtown."

"Best send a raven to Lord Hightower and ask him to make certain your uncle does not take ship..."

A flush crept up Tyrell's thick neck. "This...your lord father assured me..."  He began to sputter.

Then his mother appeared...

It seems pretty clear that Mace is merely the figurehead in Highgarden. Lady Ole

Seems to be done out of vindictiveness of Cersi not the plots of Olena 

You would be a fool to make Mace Tyrell your Hand," Ser Kevan admitted, "but a bigger fool to make him your foe. I've heard what happened in the Hall of Lamps. Mace should have known better than to broach such matters in public, but even so, you were unwise to shame him in front of half the court."

"Better that than suffer another Tyrell on the council." His reproach annoyed her. "Rosby will make an adequate master of coin. You've seen that litter of his, with its carvings and silk draperies. His horses are better dressed than most knights. A man that rich should have no problem finding gold. As for Handship . . . who better to finish my father's work than the brother who shared all his counsels?"

"Every man needs someone he can trust. Tywin had me, and once your mother."

24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Mace was not all that clever during RR. He was ordered to sit at Storm's End, primarily because Aerys didn't want both the Reach and the Dornish marching large armies to the Trident. They might have ended up killing each other before the battle began.

I dont show how this is him being stupid. 

[Lord Varys]

Mace is right about the North. That's not worth fighting for. Especially not if you are from the Reach and have everything you could possibly want. It might not be the right thing for somebody thinking in the tradition of Aegon the Conqueror but nobody ever said Mace was thinking like such a man.

29 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

It seems pretty clear that Mace is merely the figurehead in Highgarden. Lady Olenna is really the one making all the important decisions and she, correctly, sees that a union between Stark, Tully, Arryn and Baratheon is a threat to Highgarden's historical hegemony on the continent.

Olenna Redwyne cleans up behind Mace, she doesn't rule him, nor does she make the important decisions in the house. Those are made by her son. Olenna has a lot of influence over her son - like many a parent has over her child - (as is proved when she cancels Tywin's proposal of marrying Cersei to Willas) but once Mace has made up his mind his mother can just sit there and watch, and do her best make things work - like she did when she arranged the murder of Joffrey (which wouldn't have been necessary if Mace hadn't decided to marry Margaery to him). 

Olenna makes it also clear that she didn't like the ridiculous Renly adventure - that was the brainchild of Renly, Loras, and Mace, not Olenna.

It is pretty likely that Mace has absorbed and tries to realize all the ambitions his parents Luthor and Olenna (who were both supposed to marry into royal family and ended up being stuck with each other) and that Olenna shares his basic naked ambition (to make a Tyrell queen and see her child on the Iron Throne) but she doesn't exactly approve of everything he does to accomplish this.

Quote

Mace was not all that clever during RR. He was ordered to sit at Storm's End, primarily because Aerys didn't want both the Reach and the Dornish marching large armies to the Trident. They might have ended up killing each other before the battle began.

There is no evidence that Aerys II commanded Mace and Paxter to besiege Storm's End. It might have been the case (they certainly didn't do that in defiance of a royal command) but if that's the case then we don't know it yet.

Quote

It's well-known but rarely stated that Tarly won at Ashford. Mace wasn't even there.

It was Mace's army, and Tarly was nothing but a sub-commander in his army. If the Blackfish won a victory commanding Robb's vanguard then it would still be the Young Wolf's victory.

Mace is stretching things because he always paints himself as this great warrior and general without ever having had that much personal success at any of that, but he still is the nominal general of the host. And as such the victory was his, not Mace's. Just as ultimately said victory was Aerys II's, considering he was the king. Just as the Blackwater was won by King Joffrey, not Tyrion, Tywin, or Mace. They were just commanding the king's armies.

There are other quotes indicating that Mace Tyrell is an ambitious, grasping, and ruthless individual. He may not be the sharpest knife in the box, but he is no oaf. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

It is pretty clear that George intended to portray Mace Tyrell as an oaf, lacking in imagination, and fairly easily fooled by smarter men.

He certainly didn’t do much to give us a different impression. 

Not everyone can be a secret puppeteer, or hide their true nature under a crafty facade. Some characters just are what they appear to be. And Mace is one such.

Oaf is a fair description of him, but I would almost be tempted to add “likeable” oaf as a more accurate description. Mace is an ok guy. Just not very smart.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It is pretty clear that George intended to portray Mace Tyrell as an oaf, lacking in imagination, and fairly easily fooled by smarter men.

He certainly didn’t do much to give us a different impression. 

I suggest you reread the material on Mace Tyrell. You seem to take Olenna's public dismissal of her son at face value - which is, for the most part, as hollow as most of her other 'uncontrolled bluntness'.

Tyrion paints a different picture of the man during the Small Council meeting he attends in ASoS, as does Ser Kevan in his Epilogue. The man dominating the political scene in KL at the end of ADwD is Mace Tyrell, and Kevan is very aware of the fact that he feels the thorns of the roses around his neck. Mace has all the real power and Kevan is completely dependent on him in military matters.

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Oaf is a fair description of him, but I would almost be tempted to add “likeable” oaf as a more accurate description. Mace is an ok guy. Just not very smart.

He isn't very likable, either. Just reread Tyrion's encounters/interactions with him. He is not nice. He is a cold fish, and incapable/unwilling to even hide the contempt he feels for other people (e.g. the way he treats Tyrion, the fact that he and Paxter - unlike Mathis Rowan - don't care about the murders of the Targaryen children).

Mace is certainly not very subtle, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he wants or lacks the abilities to get that. If you are the Lord of Highgarden you get what you want. You don't have to play childish games.

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I suggest you reread the material on Mace Tyrell. You seem to take Olenna's public dismissal of her son at face value - which is, for the most part, as hollow as most of her other 'uncontrolled bluntness'.

Tyrion paints a different picture of the man during the Small Council meeting he attends in ASoS, as does Ser Kevan in his Epilogue. The man dominating the political scene in KL at the end of ADwD is Mace Tyrell, and Kevan is very aware of the fact that he feels the thorns of the roses around his neck. Mace has all the real power and Kevan is completely dependent on him in military matters.

He isn't very likable, either. Just reread Tyrion's encounters/interactions with him. He is not nice. He is a cold fish, and incapable/unwilling to even hide the contempt he feels for other people (e.g. the way he treats Tyrion, the fact that he and Paxter - unlike Mathis Rowan - don't care about the murders of the Targaryen children).

Mace is certainly not very subtle, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he wants or lacks the abilities to get that. If you are the Lord of Highgarden you get what you want. You don't have to play childish games.

Sometimes you don’t need to argue just for the sake of arguing, Lord Varys.

Mace is not a moron. But he isn’t particularly impressive either. He rules the roost in Kings Landing because Tywin is dead and he has 100000 troops at his command, maybe 30000 of which are in Kings Landing vicinity.

As for not liking Tyrion - who does like that disgusting excuse for a human being?

Anyway, Mace is likely to rush off to Storms End and die in battle at Aegon’s hands, completing his unimpressive arc fairly shortly. 100000 soldiers notwithstanding.

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Sometimes you don’t need to argue just for the sake of arguing, Lord Varys.

Well, you wanted to portray Mace as a nice chap. But he isn't.

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Mace is not a moron. But he isn’t particularly impressive either. He rules the roost in Kings Landing because Tywin is dead and he has 100000 troops at his command, maybe 30000 of which are in Kings Landing vicinity.

I'd actually consider Mace to be a smarter political animal than, say, Eddard and Robb Stark - who didn't know what they wanted, didn't know how to accomplish it, and failed to grasp political necessities and realities, making one devastating mistake after the other.

Mace Tyrell aimed at making his house the second in the Realm, marrying his daughter to a king, and he succeeded at that. He is a pretty successful politician.

And he is still in a very strong position, being the ruler of KL in all but the name right now.

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for not liking Tyrion - who does like that disgusting excuse for a human being?

It is not just him disliking him, it is the patronizing way in which he dismisses Tyrion, as well as other things (the North, say) and people he dismisses. That shows what kind of person he is. 

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Anyway, Mace is likely to rush off to Storms End and die in battle at Aegon’s hands, completing his unimpressive arc fairly shortly. 100000 soldiers notwithstanding.

I'd not count on that. It might be that Mace personally marches his army against Aegon - or not. He could stay behind controlling the city and the Iron Throne, sending Tarly in his stead. Even if he didn't - Mace is neither a young man nor a fearsome warrior leading from the front. How likely is it that such a man dies in battle? And how likely is that Aegon and Connington would be stupid enough to allow anyone to kill as valuable a hostage as Mace Tyrell?

If they capture him alive they could win the allegiance of Highgarden and the entire Reach without much difficulty.

If Mace remained behind keeping the peace in KL he would be more likely to die in the series of events leading to Aegon's rise to the Iron Throne. Varys is still there, as is Cersei, the Faith Militant, etc.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Is this really dumb? He's talking about Robb reclaiming the north from the iron born-a course Robb did take.

Not by throwing all his might against Moat Caillen, which pretty much everybody else recognizes as a lost cause.

21 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Seems to be done out of the vindictiveness of Cersi.

Sure, but if Mace really was the authority in Highgarden there is no way he would allow his mother to upbraid him like that, in front of the queen no less. I can't imagine Ned or Robert or Tywin or any other high lord putting up with that.

21 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I dont show how this is him being stupid. 

He is not completely stupid but neither is he the cagey military strategist that the OP makes him out to be. He basically did as he was told in RR.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Mace is right about the North. That's not worth fighting for. Especially not if you are from the Reach and have everything you could possibly want. It might not be the right thing for somebody thinking in the tradition of Aegon the Conqueror but nobody ever said Mace was thinking like such a man.

Olenna Redwyne cleans up behind Mace, she doesn't rule him, nor does she make the important decisions in the house. Those are made by her son. Olenna has a lot of influence over her son - like many a parent has over her child - (as is proved when she cancels Tywin's proposal of marrying Cersei to Willas) but once Mace has made up his mind his mother can just sit there and watch, and do her best make things work - like she did when she arranged the murder of Joffrey (which wouldn't have been necessary if Mace hadn't decided to marry Margaery to him). 

Olenna makes it also clear that she didn't like the ridiculous Renly adventure - that was the brainchild of Renly, Loras, and Mace, not Olenna.

It is pretty likely that Mace has absorbed and tries to realize all the ambitions his parents Luthor and Olenna (who were both supposed to marry into royal family and ended up being stuck with each other) and that Olenna shares his basic naked ambition (to make a Tyrell queen and see her child on the Iron Throne) but she doesn't exactly approve of everything he does to accomplish this.

I think we have plenty of evidence to see that Mace does not make any important decisions against the wishes of his mother.

From Littlefinger:

Quote

"The old woman is not boring, though, I'll grant her that. A fearsome old harridan, and not near as frail as she pretends. When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery's hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey's nature."

From Tywin:

Quote

Lord Tywin cut him off. "Mace Tyrell has refused my offer to marry Cersei to his heir Willas."

"Refused our sweet Cersei?" That put Tyrion in a much better mood.

"When I first broached the match to him, Lord Tyrell seemed well enough disposed," his father said. "A day later, all was changed. The old woman's work. She hectors her son unmercifully. Varys claims she told him that your sister was too old and too used for this precious one-legged grandson of hers."

Adding the two quotes I posted above showing Mace acting like a clueless boob, and I think there is enough evidence to conclude that Mace is just the figurehead in Highgarden. I'm sure he makes plenty of decisions without Lady O's input, but whatever the "old woman" wants, she gets, particularly when it comes to marriages.

I don't believe a word she says to Sansa during that entire dinner conversation, least of all that her lord oaf son is intent on riding a lion. She also said she was the one to put an end to her betrothal to Daeron. The whole dinner was a mummer's show. Lady O already knows exactly what kind of boy Joffrey is, and Sansa reveals nothing to her that is not already public knowledge. So this was all an attempt to get Sansa to reveal what kind of person she is, not to learn anything about Joffrey. 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no evidence that Aerys II commanded Mace and Paxter to besiege Storm's End. It might have been the case (they certainly didn't do that in defiance of a royal command) but if that's the case then we don't know it yet.

It was Mace's army, and Tarly was nothing but a sub-commander in his army. If the Blackfish won a victory commanding Robb's vanguard then it would still be the Young Wolf's victory.

Mace is stretching things because he always paints himself as this great warrior and general without ever having had that much personal success at any of that, but he still is the nominal general of the host. And as such the victory was his, not Mace's. Just as ultimately said victory was Aerys II's, considering he was the king. Just as the Blackwater was won by King Joffrey, not Tyrion, Tywin, or Mace. They were just commanding the king's armies.

There are other quotes indicating that Mace Tyrell is an ambitious, grasping, and ruthless individual. He may not be the sharpest knife in the box, but he is no oaf. 

Honestly? Mace has taken the field in support of Aerys and the one battle that will decide the future of the realm is forming on the Trident but Aerys could care less that he has an entire second army at his disposal to smash the rebels? Please. If Mace's orders were not to lay siege to Storm's End then he is an even bigger oaf than I thought. Not only did he miss the decisive battle, but then he sat out the sack of the capital city and the murder of said king and his grandchildren. Instead, he thought it best to camp, what, 30,00?, 40,000? men outside Storm's End for nearly the entire war making sure Stannis and a few hundred men can't join the fighting.

Yes, the top lord and ultimately the king get credit for the victories, but that doesn't make them smart or competent. BTW, Tywin, not Joffrey, is credited with winning the Blackwater; he was proclaimed Savior of the City.

I'd be interested to see your quotes, unless their Lady Olenna's, of course, as they are all a pack of lies. And the term oaf is indeterminant, but there is no reason why an oaf cannot be ambitious, grasping and ruthless all the same.

[TyrionFan82]

I think Randyll Tarly is more of the strategic genius of the Reach. Mace isn't an idiot, he's an opportunist. He's maneuvered his way up the political ladder, no doubt with his mother's help....but to say he's COMPLETELY incompetent is a bit much.

[M.Alhazred]

Mace is a ambitious,grasping,bloviating oaf.That's the impression I've had of him from I 1st came across him.Olena knew this as well. 

[Angel Eyes]

I’d say that Mace isn’t very good at politics without his mother. It was his idea to support King after King in attempts to gain power and winds up pissing off Cersei, which has gotten Margaery and three of her cousins, plus a bunch of other people imprisoned by the Faith.

[The Sleeper]

I would say that there is a chance that he isn't. 

His personal demeanor is blunt, boastful and oblivious. It still cannot be ignored that he manages to usually land on top or not significantly weakened.

The fact is that his immediate family and close counsellors are very capable and he doesn't hinder them, whether deliberately or though obliviousness. The overwhelming power of house Tyrell is not a problem either. 

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Yes, Mace is an oaf.

In the Small Council discussions after Renly's murder, Loras is stated to be the key Tyrell to win over, since Mace will mindlessly follow him. When LF describes the politics of the Lannister-Tyrell negotiations to Sansa, he portrays Mace as being easily manipulated, which seems to be true. During Tyrion's trial, Mace irrationally bases his determinations on the false idea that Margaery was the target of the poison.

More importantly, in the ADwD epilogue Mace shows he has already acted stupidly and continues to act stupidly. Kevan needs to explain to Mace that it is vital to the interests of House Tyrell that Cersei be found innocent. Mace has failed to reach that conclusion on his own. Mace has allowed the alleged lovers of Margaery (who have recanted their forced accusations) to be held in the dungeons by Qyburn, instead of keeping them in cells that can be supervised by Tyrell men. He has allowed Cersei's trial by combat to be scheduled before Margaery's jury trial, an epic mistake. The High Sparrow has accused two queens of treason - he cannot allow both to be found innocent and still maintain face. Given that Ser Robert Strong will undoubtedly win any trial by combat for Cersei, the High Sparrow must have Margaery found guilty whether she is or not, and he is in position to make sure that happens since he gets to select the jury. Mace also advocates having King Tommen quash the charges against Margaery, a move that would enrage the Faith and put his strongest bannerman Randall Tarly in a moral dilemma, since Tarly has sworn a Holy Oath to deliver Margaery for trial.

What is a mace? A blunt instrument that is by definition not sharp.

Not only is Mace an oaf, he is obviously Too Dumb To Live, and will be an early casualty in TWoW.

[Makk]

Is he a lucky oaf or a clever plotter acting an oaf? It can be very hard to tell without a pov (or even a lot of first hand events) since the latter who is very good will appear to be the former.

However I suspect he is an oaf. Cersei appeared to be able to outmaneuver him (following Jaime's advice) endangering Margaery by appealing to his ego, I don't see an upside for him in that move. And I suspect Connington is about to crush him but we will have to wait for Winds for any sort of confirmation about that.

[Castellan]

On 6/10/2018 at 8:15 PM, The hairy bear said:

I agree with you. Also, so far in the series, he has always managed to bet on the right horse and adapt quickly to changing cirumstances. Crowning Renly, then wainting until he got an offer from the Lannisters, and when in the Council playing his cards well until he managed to get up to three more lords from the Reach in the Small Council.

its partly that he is the right horse isn't it? Once Stannis kills Renley, for example, Tywin knows his chance of preserving Joffrey's rule is through winning over Mace. Mace is the Lord of the most fertile and populous of the Seven Kingdoms. He can supply an army, food and control over a big chunk of land.

I don't know if he's that adaptive he just consistently uses his strength to push for power. 

[The hairy bear]

On 1/19/2019 at 2:56 AM, Castellan said:

its partly that he is the right horse isn't it? Once Stannis kills Renley, for example, Tywin knows his chance of preserving Joffrey's rule is through winning over Mace. Mace is the Lord of the most fertile and populous of the Seven Kingdoms. He can supply an army, food and control over a big chunk of land.

I don't know if he's that adaptive he just consistently uses his strength to push for power. 

The Tyrells are not that "strong", though, Their strength is the strength of the lords of the Reach, and the fact that he manages to have all of them following his lead both in the Rebellion and in the War of the Five Kings is notorious by itself.

We have plenty of examples of conflicts when the Reach lords just ignored the Tyrells and fought one another. It happened in the Faith Militant uprising, in the Dance of Dragons, and in the Blackfyre Rebellions. Olenna acknowledges that many lords of the Reach still see the Tyrells as upjumped stewards.

A succession crisis is the perfect opportunity for ambitious lords to make a bet. And still, all the great lords of the Reach follow his lead. I'd say that happens because they trust Mace's ability to extract the maximum profit for them at the minimum cost: in both conflicts Mace betted on the likely winner, tried to avoid direct engagements, and ensured that the Reach forces suffered the minimum casualties.

[Arthur Peres]

On 1/19/2019 at 5:09 PM, The hairy bear said:

The Tyrells are not that "strong", though, Their strength is the strength of the lords of the Reach, and the fact that he manages to have all of them following his lead both in the Rebellion and in the War of the Five Kings is notorious by itself.

 

Mace is kind the exception to this, he is half Redweyne through his mother, and is married with a Hightower. This is the biggest power block on the Reach.

And even then, a argument could be made that he does not have this much control of his vassals. Several of his lords swaped to Stannis after Renly's death, such as Fossoway, Florent and Mullendore for example.

I don't think Mace is very clever, but he is not a fool either.