Shaera in Aerys´ rule

[Jaak]

What was Queen Shaera doing?

She had been a young mother. 18 when she had Aerys and 19-20 when she had Rhaella.

She was just 33 when she became a grandmother, and a Queen. She is attested as alive after Summerhall, because she stayed home with Jaeharys when their army sailed for Ninepenny Wars.

She was 36 when she became a widow.

At first Aerys was a decent boy except for crazy ideas he soon lost interest in (wildings, Braavos).

But the matters degraded from 270. While Rhaella had never been fond of her big brother in that way, from 270 Aerys accused the then 25 year old Rhaella of cheating him and confined her under guard.

What would the 44 year old Shaera have said about Aerys treating her daughter that way?

Jaime and Jonothor were sworn to protect Rhaella, too, but not from Aerys. They were sworn to obey the King and keep his secrets. While the then just 57 year old Queen Shaera was under no vows to not upbraid his 39 year old boy.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Building a second wall and an irrigation system for Dorne is not crazy if the realm was prepping for winter.  The second wall is an additional line of defense.  Greening the desert is a terrific idea to grow food during the winter.   Aerys was warned by Bloodraven.  

 

[Lord Varys]

We don't know that Queen Shaera lived to see the reign of her son, Aerys II. She survived Summerhall and she sat as queen at the side of Jaehaerys II but we don't know whether she outlived her brother-husband or not. Could be. Or not.

If she predeceased Jaehaerys II - or died in the first or second year of Aerys II's reign she wouldn't have said anything to anything.

Still, if she lived into the 270s, say, it would be interesting to know what she did.

[Big P]

We are not told what happened to her.  I hope for her sake she didn't live to see her son and grandson squander away their kingdom to the Baratheon schmuck.  If she had she needed to beat Aerys and Rhaegar with a long lash.  The Targaryen boys were not good leaders.  Thankfully, their little sister Dany is extremely capable and I'm counting on her to get Westeros back from the usurpers.

[Jaak]

Maester Yandel took care to date 8 miscarriages, childbirths and babyhood deaths that Rhaella had between Rhaegaer and Viserys, and name the 4 who got names.

While the general series of tragedies was straining Aerys´ sanity and his marriage, dating the life of his mother would have been far more relevant than any single baby.

We know that in the matter of Rhaella´s marriage, it was Jaehaerys´ idea, on advice of woods witch - Rhaella objected (but could do little), and so did Egg (he as the King could have done something, but he declined to overrule his heir). What did Shaera think about the marriage?

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

What was Queen Shaera doing?

She had been a young mother. 18 when she had Aerys and 19-20 when she had Rhaella.

She was just 33 when she became a grandmother, and a Queen. She is attested as alive after Summerhall, because she stayed home with Jaeharys when their army sailed for Ninepenny Wars.

She was 36 when she became a widow.

At first Aerys was a decent boy except for crazy ideas he soon lost interest in (wildings, Braavos).

But the matters degraded from 270. While Rhaella had never been fond of her big brother in that way, from 270 Aerys accused the then 25 year old Rhaella of cheating him and confined her under guard.

What would the 44 year old Shaera have said about Aerys treating her daughter that way?

Jaime and Jonothor were sworn to protect Rhaella, too, but not from Aerys. They were sworn to obey the King and keep his secrets. While the then just 57 year old Queen Shaera was under no vows to not upbraid his 39 year old boy.

It's also quite possible that Shaera was conniving, cruel and vindictive: the Cersei to Aerys' Joffrey.

Jaehaerys was amiable, but sickly, so it's hard to see how he could become the object of such ardent passion that Shaera would defy her parents to marry him and throw the realm into chaos. At the same time, it's hard to see how someone like Jaehaerys could raise such an insecure and erratic son like Aerys. But if he grew up under the tutelage of a scheming, grasping mother...

But we'll probably never know.

[Jaak]

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It's also quite possible that Shaera was conniving, cruel and vindictive: the Cersei to Aerys' Joffrey.

Jaehaerys was amiable, but sickly, so it's hard to see how he could become the object of such ardent passion that Shaera would defy her parents to marry him and throw the realm into chaos.

Hm? You are underestimating teen girls.

Shaera/Jaehaerys like Cersei/Jaime, if they had had family tradition and parents willing to yield to their children even though the parents wanted to change it?

Jaime was amiable, but at least healthy and strong champion. Jaehaerys was not.

But it is Jaehaerys, not Shaera, to whom Aerys/Rhaella marriage is attributed.

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

At the same time, it's hard to see how someone like Jaehaerys could raise such an insecure and erratic son like Aerys. But if he grew up under the tutelage of a scheming, grasping mother...

Compared to Joffrey, Aerys was decent into his twenties. His crazy ideas were benign then.

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But we'll probably never know.

Ser Barristan knew the woman. He was at court early enough to attend Rhaella´s wedding, and note her lack of fondness. Shaera outlived that, and Summerhall.

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Compared to Joffrey, Aerys was decent into his twenties. His crazy ideas were benign then.

Eh, I'm not too sure that he was decent. The World Book (not an unbiased source by any means), described young Aerys as neither diligent nor intelligent but a good dancer with an undeniable charm, which is Joffrey to a T, and he was also "vain, proud and changeable" and was "easy prey for flatterers and lickspittles," again, a lot like Joffrey.

 

[Lord Varys]

30 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Eh, I'm not too sure that he was decent. The World Book (not an unbiased source by any means), described young Aerys as neither diligent nor intelligent but a good dancer with an undeniable charm, which is Joffrey to a T, and he was also "vain, proud and changeable" and was "easy prey for flatterers and lickspittles," again, a lot like Joffrey.

Aerys clearly wasn't the sharpest knife in the box, but unlike Joffrey - or Aerion, or Maegor, or Daemon - he didn't have a sadistic/cruel streak as such. Young Aerys didn't force people to fight each other to death, didn't whip serving man bloody who brought him bad news, didn't mistreat/kill animals, didn't abuse/beat up smallfolk, etc.

Aerys II did have his lapses later, especially when his children died and his paranoia/fear caused him to lay the blame at the feet of innocent people, but when sane the man's judgments weren't harsh or cruel - that only changed after Duskendale.

In that sense, Aerys II pre-Duskendale is in a completely different league than Joffrey - who is basically Maegor the Cruel at the age of 12-13 wearing a crown (while lacking the man's prowess as a warrior).

But unlike Maegor and Joffrey, Aerys II apparently had an actual mental illness.

[John Suburbs]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aerys clearly wasn't the sharpest knife in the box, but unlike Joffrey - or Aerion, or Maegor, or Daemon - he didn't have a sadistic/cruel streak as such. Young Aerys didn't force people to fight each other to death, didn't whip serving man bloody who brought him bad news, didn't mistreat/kill animals, didn't abuse/beat up smallfolk, etc.

Aerys II did have his lapses later, especially when his children died and his paranoia/fear caused him to lay the blame at the feet of innocent people, but when sane the man's judgments weren't harsh or cruel - that only changed after Duskendale.

In that sense, Aerys II pre-Duskendale is in a completely different league than Joffrey - who is basically Maegor the Cruel at the age of 12-13 wearing a crown (while lacking the man's prowess as a warrior).

But unlike Maegor and Joffrey, Aerys II apparently had an actual mental illness.

Well, we don't have a lot of info about Aerys' boyhood, so we can't say for certain that he didn't do this kind of stuff. As far as I can tell, Joffrey talks about forcing men to fight to the death but it never actually happens. Histories aren't going to record things that young princes do to animals or servants, so I wouldn't rule out all manner of behavior by a young Aerys that people today would consider over the top.

But regardless of whether Aerys was as maniacal as Joffrey, they certainly shared many qualities, if Yandel is to be believed. From the description of Jaehaerys, it seems unlikely he would have picked up these traits from his father, so that would leave his mother, unless someone else had primary responsibility for his upbringing.

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, we don't have a lot of info about Aerys' boyhood, so we can't say for certain that he didn't do this kind of stuff.

We have a considerable amount of information on the youth Prince Aerys as well as the young king Aerys II. Nothing indicates the man enjoying torturing animals or people, nor have we any reason to assume the man had such tastes. If he had, we would assume Yandel would have portrayed him more like young Maegor, young Daemon, or young Aerion (whose cruelty is mentioned in passing).

We would also have gotten a reign that resembled the rule of Maegor the Cruel much more (when the king's cruel traits were not checked by Lord Tywin). But there is nothing of that sort, either.

20 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

As far as I can tell, Joffrey talks about forcing men to fight to the death but it never actually happens.

It happened repeatedly. Cersei gave Joff leave to do justice, and his sentences stood (when given, most he just didn't partake in deliberations) and were carried out.

20 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Histories aren't going to record things that young princes do to animals or servants, so I wouldn't rule out all manner of behavior by a young Aerys that people today would consider over the top.

They did record stuff like that for Maegor the Cruel and Prince Daemon, though. I agree that we don't have enough information on Aerys II's childhood as of yet but that doesn't enable us to speculate wildly about his nature.

Do you see King Joffrey, King Maegor, or Princes Daemon or Aerion waking from a mad rage, humbling himself in front of the Seven, and making a walk of repentance through the city to the Great Sept to beg the forgiveness of the High Septon?

That's what Aerys II did after he had his mistress, her family, and other people executed after the death of his son, Prince Jaehaerys.

It shows that Aerys' character was fundamentally different from the real (Targaryen) sadists and psychopaths in the series. He is actually a much more nuanced and tragic character when compared to the likes of Maegor, Aerion, and even Joffrey. Joffrey was still a boy, that makes his murder also tragic, but unlike Aerys Joffrey wasn't suffering from a mental illness actually affecting his abilities to make rational decisions.

20 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But regardless of whether Aerys was as maniacal as Joffrey, they certainly shared many qualities, if Yandel is to be believed. From the description of Jaehaerys, it seems unlikely he would have picked up these traits from his father, so that would leave his mother, unless someone else had primary responsibility for his upbringing.

There is no need to believe Aerys II had to pick up traits from his elders. Just as Maegor, Daemon, Aerion, and even Joffrey didn't pick up their traits from their parents or other role models (Cersei and Robert were shitty parents, but none of them taught their boy to cut open cats or to relish in the notion to brutalize smallfolk). Visenya was stern but, as far as we know, not sadistic or fond of torturing people. The same with Daemon, Aerion, etc. And there is really no indication in the history of Aerys II reign that anybody expected the man to be a particularly cruel king. Not a great king, mind you, but also no Maegor.

Queen Shaera is pretty much a footnote in history. I'm inclined to believe that theirs was some sort deep incestuous love story but aside from that we really know nothing about her. If she was some sort of mad sadist one should expect that this would have been mentioned in passing.

My gut feeling is that it is going to turn out she predeceased her brother-husband (or died shortly after Aerys II took the throne). Else she should have been mentioned at least in passing during the rather long and detailed account on the reign of her son.

[Ylath's Snout]

Could it be that if Shaera lived during Aerys' reign she became a historical footnote because Aerys and/or Tywin was able to politically outmaneuver her?

Cersei and Olenna seems to show that savvy women can do plenty in the "grey eminence" role behind a son.

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Could it be that if Shaera lived during Aerys' reign she became a historical footnote because Aerys and/or Tywin was able to politically outmaneuver her?

It is possible but it is very odd that she is simply not mentioned at all. That makes it not unlikely she predeceased her brother-husband. Jaehaerys II's reign isn't covered in detail, but Aerys II is. So one would expect that the death of the mother of the king and queen would have been mentioned if she had died during their reign.

It might be that this is an oversight that will be corrected later on, but as of yet I'm not counting on that.

But I very much doubt that Shaera played ever an important political role - if that had been the case then Aerys II wouldn't have been able to push her aside easily, nor would that fact have been so unimportant that Yandel never mentioned it.

[Ylath's Snout]

53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is possible but it is very odd that she is simply not mentioned at all. That makes it not unlikely she predeceased her brother-husband. Jaehaerys II's reign isn't covered in detail, but Aerys II is. So one would expect that the death of the mother of the king and queen would have been mentioned if she had died during their reign.

Well speaking as someone that has taken a semester of history at a Swedish university plenty of queens and queen mother just get brushed to the side unless they or their kids did something major. The two queen that from what I recall mostly get talked about are:

Catherine Jagiellon a polish princess that married into the Wasa royal house, this caused plenty of problems down the line as trying to rule lutheran Sweden and catholic Poland did not work out and the claim polish kings had on the swedish crown was used as casus belli in several wars.

Queen Christina straight up ruled Sweden for several years, was a patrons of arts and science before converting to catholicism, abdicating and moving to Rome. Pretty extraordinary when you consider Sweden's affiliation during the wars of religion in Europe.

Shaera doesn't seem to have done as much and considering how patriarcal Westeros is it isn't odd that she is mentioned mostly in genealogies and the like.

But sure she could deffo have died before Aerys reign.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It might be that this is an oversight that will be corrected later on, but as of yet I'm not counting on that.

Mmmhmmm, GRRM and his minions have better things to worry about than Jon's great grandmother.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But I very much doubt that Shaera played ever an important political role - if that had been the case then Aerys II wouldn't have been able to push her aside easily, nor would that fact have been so unimportant that Yandel never mentioned it.

Well could be that Shaera kept a low profile while wielding power behind the scenes, how likely is as that Varys or Little Finger will get more than a passing mention in some future in-univers history book of the five kings era as it stands right now? They are both super important to the story but unless they are exposed they are unlikely to get the recognition their action merit. Not saying th Shaera is the real mastermind behind all of aSoIaF or anything but unless she gets the spotlight put on her for some reason we will never know much about her.

[Jaak]

2 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Well speaking as someone that has taken a semester of history at a Swedish university plenty of queens and queen mother just get brushed to the side unless they or their kids did something major. The two queen that from what I recall mostly get talked about are:

Catherine Jagiellon a polish princess that married into the Wasa royal house, this caused plenty of problems down the line as trying to rule lutheran Sweden and catholic Poland did not work out and the claim polish kings had on the swedish crown was used as casus belli in several wars.

Queen Christina straight up ruled Sweden for several years, was a patrons of arts and science before converting to catholicism, abdicating and moving to Rome. Pretty extraordinary when you consider Sweden's affiliation during the wars of religion in Europe.

Shaera doesn't seem to have done as much and considering how patriarcal Westeros is it isn't odd that she is mentioned mostly in genealogies and the like.

Yes. But babies, especially baby girls and stillbirths/miscarriages of unmentioned sex, do even less of importance.

Yandel takes care to date all 8 miscarriages, stillbirths and deaths in infancy between Rhaegaer and Viserys, and name the 4 that had names. By comparison, death of the mother of Rhaella and Aerys should have been a relevant event to report and date. After all, unlike the infants, Shaera could have expressed her opinion about the marital troubles of her children, and be heard.

(Even Rhaegaer... he was 11 when Aerys confined Rhaella. Was the boy allowed to get in and out of his mother´s prison?)

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We have a considerable amount of information on the youth Prince Aerys as well as the young king Aerys II. Nothing indicates the man enjoying torturing animals or people, nor have we any reason to assume the man had such tastes. If he had, we would assume Yandel would have portrayed him more like young Maegor, young Daemon, or young Aerion (whose cruelty is mentioned in passing).

We would also have gotten a reign that resembled the rule of Maegor the Cruel much more (when the king's cruel traits were not checked by Lord Tywin). But there is nothing of that sort, either.

What information? Where? The World Book devotes two sentences to Aerys' youth, and even then it begins with him at 16, not a boy:

Quote

A handsome youth, Aerys had fought gallantly in the Stepstones during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Though not the most diligent of princes, nor the most intelligent, he had an undeniable charm that won him many friends. He was also vain, proud, and changeable, traits that made him easy prey for flatterers and lickspittles, but these flaws were not immediately apparent to most at the time of his ascension.

Later we find out that he was childhood friends with Tywin and Steffan. But the statement that "these flaws were not immediately apparent to most" is a clear indication that much of Aerys' boyhood activities were hidden.

I'm not saying Aerys was Joffrey in a previous life, but when we look at their character traits, there are a lot of similarities. Since we know, or should know at least, that Joffrey is the way he is primarily due to the influence of his mother and that Aerys' own father was a fairly amiable guy, then we should at least consider the possibility that Aerys' mother may have been just as shrewish and manipulative as Cersei. So in answer to the OP's question: if Shaera was even still alive when Rhaella's beatings began, she might not have been all that concerned. Indeed, we also have no idea what kind of person Rhaella was or what her relationship with her mother was like. I'll wager that Shaera was none too pleased by the whole Bonifer Hasty affair.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It happened repeatedly. Cersei gave Joff leave to do justice, and his sentences stood (when given, most he just didn't partake in deliberations) and were carried out.

I'd love to know where you get that from. I don't recall any duels to the death actually happening, nor anyone bemoaning the fate of poor Ser Whoever who lost his life for Joffrey's enjoyment. Joffrey shoots his mouth off, but nothing ever comes of it. There's a war on, the city is preparing for battle and needs every sword for its defense.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They did record stuff like that for Maegor the Cruel and Prince Daemon, though. I agree that we don't have enough information on Aerys II's childhood as of yet but that doesn't enable us to speculate wildly about his nature.

Do you see King Joffrey, King Maegor, or Princes Daemon or Aerion waking from a mad rage, humbling himself in front of the Seven, and making a walk of repentance through the city to the Great Sept to beg the forgiveness of the High Septon?

That's what Aerys II did after he had his mistress, her family, and other people executed after the death of his son, Prince Jaehaerys.

It shows that Aerys' character was fundamentally different from the real (Targaryen) sadists and psychopaths in the series. He is actually a much more nuanced and tragic character when compared to the likes of Maegor, Aerion, and even Joffrey. Joffrey was still a boy, that makes his murder also tragic, but unlike Aerys Joffrey wasn't suffering from a mental illness actually affecting his abilities to make rational decisions.

Again, I'm not saying Joffrey is Aerys reborn, or vice versa. I'm just making a general comparison of their personality traits based on the information we have so far and then offering some speculation that maybe both of their personalities were shaped by their mothers.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no need to believe Aerys II had to pick up traits from his elders. Just as Maegor, Daemon, Aerion, and even Joffrey didn't pick up their traits from their parents or other role models (Cersei and Robert were shitty parents, but none of them taught their boy to cut open cats or to relish in the notion to brutalize smallfolk). Visenya was stern but, as far as we know, not sadistic or fond of torturing people. The same with Daemon, Aerion, etc. And there is really no indication in the history of Aerys II reign that anybody expected the man to be a particularly cruel king. Not a great king, mind you, but also no Maegor.

Queen Shaera is pretty much a footnote in history. I'm inclined to believe that theirs was some sort deep incestuous love story but aside from that we really know nothing about her. If she was some sort of mad sadist one should expect that this would have been mentioned in passing.

My gut feeling is that it is going to turn out she predeceased her brother-husband (or died shortly after Aerys II took the throne). Else she should have been mentioned at least in passing during the rather long and detailed account on the reign of her son.

I disagree with you on that. Parents have a great deal of influence over the personalities of their children, and we can see from the riverside feast during the Hand's Tourney and from his initial interactions with Cersei at court that Joffrey is very emotionally dependent on her and very much involved with his her machinations. It is certainly well within the possibility that Shaera was much the same and was the primary cause of Aerys' weaknesses and insecurities as a boy, which would later develop into full-blown mania as a king.

But my gut feeling also is that she was dead by the time Aerys truly went over the edge.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

What information? Where? The World Book devotes two sentences to Aerys' youth, and even then it begins with him at 16, not a boy:

Later we find out that he was childhood friends with Tywin and Steffan. But the statement that "these flaws were not immediately apparent to most" is a clear indication that much of Aerys' boyhood activities were hidden.

Aerys II was still a youth when his father took the throne, he wasn't even that old when he became king, and considering his choice of Hand (the butcher of the West, drowning hundreds or thousands in Castamere) Aerys could have been more than open with his sadistic desires as soon as he donned his crown.

We know some things about those years - Aerys accompanying the army to the Stepstones, Aerys allegedly deflowering Joanna in 259 AC. But nothing about cruel tendencies.

8 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm not saying Aerys was Joffrey in a previous life, but when we look at their character traits, there are a lot of similarities.

Superfluous similarities. Joffrey has undeniably a cruel streak that comes out when he is drunk (Mycah) or overly agitated. Aerys II is suffering from a mental illness that gradually worsened, and then Duskendale drove him over the edge, greatly increasing his paranoia. His cruel judgments/actions are driven by fear, not because he thrives on violence. In the end his obsession with fire develops, but that is a very late development.

8 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Since we know, or should know at least, that Joffrey is the way he is primarily due to the influence of his mother and that Aerys' own father was a fairly amiable guy, then we should at least consider the possibility that Aerys' mother may have been just as shrewish and manipulative as Cersei.

I see no reason to entertain such a notion, just as I see no reason Baelon/Alyssa Targaryen, the Conqueror and Visenya, Maekar and Dyanna Dayne, Ramsay's mother, etc. are responsible for the nature and preferences of their children.

8 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So in answer to the OP's question: if Shaera was even still alive when Rhaella's beatings began, she might not have been all that concerned. Indeed, we also have no idea what kind of person Rhaella was or what her relationship with her mother was like. I'll wager that Shaera was none too pleased by the whole Bonifer Hasty affair.

This wasn't an affair as far as we know. Just an infatuation. And Shaera was just a princess at that time, a princess who herself defied her royal parents, marrying her own brother. Just as her eldest brother and younger brother defied her parents.

It was Jaehaerys who forced him children to marry each other. Whether his sister-wife supported him in that is completely unclear.

8 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I'd love to know where you get that from. I don't recall any duels to the death actually happening, nor anyone bemoaning the fate of poor Ser Whoever who lost his life for Joffrey's enjoyment.

It is from one of the later Sansa chapters in AGoT.

8 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Joffrey shoots his mouth off, but nothing ever comes of it. There's a war on, the city is preparing for battle and needs every sword for its defense.

It is before there is a war. Or at least a war KL does have to concern itself with.

8 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I disagree with you on that. Parents have a great deal of influence over the personalities of their children, and we can see from the riverside feast during the Hand's Tourney and from his initial interactions with Cersei at court that Joffrey is very emotionally dependent on her and very much involved with his her machinations. It is certainly well within the possibility that Shaera was much the same and was the primary cause of Aerys' weaknesses and insecurities as a boy, which would later develop into full-blown mania as a king.

Cersei isn't a good mother, but she isn't the kind of person Joffrey was - or rather: was on the way of becoming. Cersei is capable of murder, and she has a fondness for harsh punishments to keep the rabble in line, but she doesn't like cruelty and violence for their own sake, nor does she get aroused or excited at the prospect of hurting or torturing people (watching them being hurt or tortured).

You see this again and again during her POV chapters. She doesn't want to know what Qyburn does to the people she sends to him. She was abhorred when Jaime actually tried to kill Bran, etc.

Joff is a completely different animal. He likes to hurt people, and he likes to watch when people are hurt. In that sense, the boy is different from his mother.

Cersei turns a blind eye to Joff's cruel streaks but she doesn't actively encourage them, either.

Joff is very much like Aerion Brightflame - and like Aerion Brightflame he never kept his desires a secret. But Aerys II apparently did for decades after he became king (Aerion tortured commoners and threatened to castrate his brothers while his grandfather and uncle Baelor still ruled the Realm). If Aerion could do those things under these great guys, then Aerys certainly could have done so under Aegon V, too.

But apparently he did not.

[John Suburbs]

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aerys II was still a youth when his father took the throne, he wasn't even that old when he became king, and considering his choice of Hand (the butcher of the West, drowning hundreds or thousands in Castamere) Aerys could have been more than open with his sadistic desires as soon as he donned his crown.

We know some things about those years - Aerys accompanying the army to the Stepstones, Aerys allegedly deflowering Joanna in 259 AC. But nothing about cruel tendencies.

 

Aerys was born in 244, his father ascended the throne in 259, when Aerys was 14 or 15, and he himself became king in 262 at the age of 17 or 18. This was approximately two years after the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Sorry to be pedantic but we know virtually nothing about his childhood.

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Superfluous similarities. Joffrey has undeniably a cruel streak that comes out when he is drunk (Mycah) or overly agitated. Aerys II is suffering from a mental illness that gradually worsened, and then Duskendale drove him over the edge, greatly increasing his paranoia. His cruel judgments/actions are driven by fear, not because he thrives on violence. In the end his obsession with fire develops, but that is a very late development.

OK, well superfluous similarities are similarities nonetheless. And when we make a comparison, we see that:

Aerys -- not diligent -- neither is Joffrey

Aerys -- not intelligent -- neither is Joffrey

Aerys -- undeniable charm -- so does Joffrey

Aerys -- vain, proud, changeable -- so is Joffrey

Aerys -- easy prey for flatterers and lickspittles -- so is Joffrey

No evidence about any animal or servant cruelty for Aerys, but there is no evidence about anything at all regarding his childhood or young adulthood before the Stepstones. Given what the man became later in life, I think it is more likely than not that he had his share of episodes as a boy.

All of these traits, save the intelligence, are learned, not inherited biologically. Our primary teachers for these kinds of things are our parents, our siblings, or others that surround us and influence us as we mature. Given the right circumstances, they can even lead to psych problems later in life, since these traits become ingrained into our personalities. It is simply not possible to run a psych profile on a fictional character who is 15 years dead, so we cannot conclude with certainty that he had a mental illness or if he was just cracking under the pressure. If his primary driver is fear, well, fear and greed are the primary drivers for just about everyone, so there would be nothing special about Aerys in that regard.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I see no reason to entertain such a notion, just as I see no reason Baelon/Alyssa Targaryen, the Conqueror and Visenya, Maekar and Dyanna Dayne, Ramsay's mother, etc. are responsible for the nature and preferences of their children.

It's a simple fact of family dynamics: all parents have a substantial influence over the personality development of their children, both positively and negatively. Sorry, but this is a basic tenant of modern psychology. Do you think it's a coincidence that the Stark children are at least reasonably well adjusted, save for Arya perhaps, while the Lannisters are all scheming connivers, even Tyrion? Or that Theon softened up during his time with the Starks only to revert back to his iron heritage as soon as he renewed contact with his father?

You may ask why Joffrey turned out so rotten while Myrcella and Tommen are normal, and the answer is simple: Joffrey has been the focus of Cersei's attention, since he is the one through whom she hopes to rule. Once her attention turns to Tommen, we see first hand how she approaches him: shame, manipulation and cruelty inflicted on his whipping boy. And we can also see the affect this has on Tommen: anger, hostility, wilfullness.

Do you honestly believe that if Aerys, or Joffrey, were born to loving parents who doted on him constantly and sang him to sleep every night all while educating him on the responsibilities of leadership and being a good king, that either would have turned out as bad as they did? With very few exceptions, you show me a psycho murderer and I'll show you someone who was abused as a child, usually quite horribly.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This wasn't an affair as far as we know. Just an infatuation. And Shaera was just a princess at that time, a princess who herself defied her royal parents, marrying her own brother. Just as her eldest brother and younger brother defied her parents.

It was Jaehaerys who forced him children to marry each other. Whether his sister-wife supported him in that is completely unclear.

Whatever, the fact is that she was carrying on with someone far below her station. And what little we know about Shaera shows her to be headstrong and willful, which are the basic requirements for someone who is also manipulative and conniving. The relationship between mother and daughter could have been quite poor, which may have deteriorated even more once the daughter became the wife of the son through which the mother is trying to wield power.

Is there any reason why we should conclude that this is true? Of course not. But neither is there any reason to summarily dismiss it.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is from one of the later Sansa chapters in AGoT.

It is before there is a war. Or at least a war KL does have to concern itself with.

It's from Joffrey's name day tourney, which is long after the war has begun and armies have taken the field:

Quote

The king laughed. "My dog has a fierce bark. Perhaps I should command him to fight the day's champion. To the death." Joffrey was fond of making men fight to the death.

Tyrion says something to the same effect as well. If you take all this at face value then there is probably no use arguing the point, but this is obviously bluster. Joffrey may have a fondness for it but it isn't happening. Nowhere is there a single mention of any death-fight for Joffrey's amusement. The whole idea is absurd. They need every available fighting man for the defense of the city, particularly the kind of armed, armored and trained knights and lords that come into Joffrey's orbit.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei isn't a good mother, but she isn't the kind of person Joffrey was - or rather: was on the way of becoming. Cersei is capable of murder, and she has a fondness for harsh punishments to keep the rabble in line, but she doesn't like cruelty and violence for their own sake, nor does she get aroused or excited at the prospect of hurting or torturing people (watching them being hurt or tortured).

You see this again and again during her POV chapters. She doesn't want to know what Qyburn does to the people she sends to him. She was abhorred when Jaime actually tried to kill Bran, etc.

Joff is a completely different animal. He likes to hurt people, and he likes to watch when people are hurt. In that sense, the boy is different from his mother.

Cersei turns a blind eye to Joff's cruel streaks but she doesn't actively encourage them, either.

Joff is very much like Aerion Brightflame - and like Aerion Brightflame he never kept his desires a secret. But Aerys II apparently did for decades after he became king (Aerion tortured commoners and threatened to castrate his brothers while his grandfather and uncle Baelor still ruled the Realm). If Aerion could do those things under these great guys, then Aerys certainly could have done so under Aegon V, too.

But apparently he did not.

Joffrey does not commit violence for violence's sake either. Everything he had done to Sansa, and everyone else, had a greater purpose than her torment. Does he enjoy it? Sure, the same way that Cersei also enjoys getting other people to do her killing. You don't think she would have enjoyed watching Tyrion or Margaery get their heads snicked off? You don't think she'll take her revenge on the three septas if she gets the chance?

Again, I'm not saying Joff is Aerys is Aerion is Maegar. Each of these men had unique personalities, although I'll note that two of them, at least, had conniving, manipulative mothers.

[Lord Varys]

@John Suburbs

To cut to the chase, I don't think George is heavily leaning on the nurture aspect of 'nature vs. nurture' in his more extreme characters. There are people that a victims of cruelty and war and go over the edge of that, of course, but the likes of Maegor, Daemon, Aerion, and Joffrey are described with very strong natural sadistic tendencies, nothing they learned from their elders.

Even if we presumed it was otherwise, then we would have to deal with the fact that royal and noble parents simply don't play that much of an influential and important role in the upbringing of their own children. Their relations with their children are usually formal and distant, and they hand the day-to-day care of their children over to servants. We know that the Stark children are emotionally much closer to Luwin, Mordane, and Nan than they are to Ned and Cat, and Cersei's children have their tutors, maesters, wetnurses, septas, and companions, too. They don't hang around their parents all day long - their parents have better and more important things to do.

Vice versa, Tywin had pretty much no hand in the upbringing of any of his children, considering he was absent father, ruling the Realm in KL while Jaime and Cersei grew up at Casterly Rock (not to mention Jaime was later fostered at Crakehall). He was present more often during Tyrion's teenage years, true, but Cersei/Jaime never spent much time with their lord father.

If you want to find people who nurtured bad tendencies (especially a lust for violence and blood) in certain people then one should look to other people - in Maegor's case perhaps to the Corbray man-at-arms Visenya chose for him, the deadliest man in the Seven Kingdoms. In Joff's case Sandor Clegane springs to mind, whose stories bloodshed and war certainly fueled his worst tendencies while he was trying to emulate and impress his mother's dog.

Whatever influence the parents had in all that - who the children only interacted during formal occasions like meals and the like - would have paled in comparison to the influence the people who spent most of the day with the children.

As to Joff having people fight for the death:

That did happen. There were such cases, as we are told when we learn that Joffrey mostly allows his mother the Queen Regent and his advisers decide a case laid before him, but when he takes an interest he decides himself, and when he has rendered a sentence nothing can sway him.

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@John Suburbs

To cut to the chase, I don't think George is heavily leaning on the nurture aspect of 'nature vs. nurture' in his more extreme characters. There are people that a victims of cruelty and war and go over the edge of that, of course, but the likes of Maegor, Daemon, Aerion, and Joffrey are described with very strong natural sadistic tendencies, nothing they learned from their elders.

Even if we presumed it was otherwise, then we would have to deal with the fact that royal and noble parents simply don't play that much of an influential and important role in the upbringing of their own children. Their relations with their children are usually formal and distant, and they hand the day-to-day care of their children over to servants. We know that the Stark children are emotionally much closer to Luwin, Mordane, and Nan than they are to Ned and Cat, and Cersei's children have their tutors, maesters, wetnurses, septas, and companions, too. They don't hang around their parents all day long - their parents have better and more important things to do.

Vice versa, Tywin had pretty much no hand in the upbringing of any of his children, considering he was absent father, ruling the Realm in KL while Jaime and Cersei grew up at Casterly Rock (not to mention Jaime was later fostered at Crakehall). He was present more often during Tyrion's teenage years, true, but Cersei/Jaime never spent much time with their lord father.

If you want to find people who nurtured bad tendencies (especially a lust for violence and blood) in certain people then one should look to other people - in Maegor's case perhaps to the Corbray man-at-arms Visenya chose for him, the deadliest man in the Seven Kingdoms. In Joff's case Sandor Clegane springs to mind, whose stories bloodshed and war certainly fueled his worst tendencies while he was trying to emulate and impress his mother's dog.

Whatever influence the parents had in all that - who the children only interacted during formal occasions like meals and the like - would have paled in comparison to the influence the people who spent most of the day with the children.

As to Joff having people fight for the death:

That did happen. There were such cases, as we are told when we learn that Joffrey mostly allows his mother the Queen Regent and his advisers decide a case laid before him, but when he takes an interest he decides himself, and when he has rendered a sentence nothing can sway him.

Sorry Varys, usually your analyses are pretty good, but I think you are way off on this. The Stark children look up to and admire both their parents, and, with the exception of Arya, try to live up to their moral standards. Joffrey, it is clearly shown, is completely under his mother's spell. From the riverside feast we can see how she uses him in her schemes. From his wailing after cutting himself on the throne we can see that he turns to her for emotional succor. He's a total mama's boy. But even if they did receive outsized influence from tutors, maesters and the like, these people could very well be equally responsible for the personalities that they eventually developed.

What you're saying is not scientifically sound. Physical defects in the brain can cause mental impairments, loss of focus, even bouts of anger or schizophrenia, but cruelty, sadism, joy at other's pain, these are all the products of nurturing. Joffrey, Aerys, even Maegor were not born tyrants and sadists, they learned these behaviors, most likely through abusive relationships, starting at a young age.

Sorry, but no on the death matches. Never once does anyone mention having seen one. No one is lamenting poor Ser Somebody who was a noble knight and a valued fighter and jouster but lost his life for Joffrey's amusement. Joffrey dispenses justice, but like the singer, it is usually done through Ser Illyn. If you have text where somebody is saying these fights are actually happening, please post.