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Hammers1895

Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

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Given that the former Seven Kingdoms were really always 8 (II not counted usually, for whatever reason, amongst the Seven (North, Vale, Riverlands, Westerlands, Stormlands, Reach, Dorne), and the Crownlands were created administratively, there are nine constituent regions of Westeros south of the Wall. GRMM makes it clear at the outset (and canonically) who the Great Houses are. The Starks in the North, the Arryns in the Vale, the Tullys in the Riverlands, the Greyjoys on the Iron Islands, the Tyrells in the Reach, Lannisters in the Westerlands, Baratheons in the Stormlands, and the Martells in Dorne with Baratheon of KL's as the Royal house/simultaneously being the default Great House of the Crownlands.

And GRRM gives ample evidence, in addition to outright writing it in places, that other houses outside the "Great" houses are very powerful, to varying degrees. Some of these may be considered "overmighty" bannermen. I love lists and rankings and things of that sort, so I thought it would be fun and a conversation-starter to list the houses of each region, picking the 5 most powerful per region. I would stipulate too a slight difference between most powerful vs. most influential/important. Here's my take on matters:

The North:

1. Stark- the Great House, ancient family with deep loyalty from bannermen of region, very strong castle

2. Manderly- controls White Harbor and thus most of the North's commerce, has a small fleet of warships, heavy mounted Calvary. Most knights of any Northern house, and the wealthiest.

3. Bolton- Once Red Kings, ancient house, very strong castle, control large land area, have large amount of soldiers (judging from Roose's actions in the War of 5 Kings and retaking the North post-Red Wedding)

4. Umber- Another ancient line, seems like good number of soldiers available considering sparse population to draw from, known genetically for physical strength and size .

5. Karstark- Good troop numbers and large land area under their control. Power in the North definitely favors those houses on the Eastern side of the continent. 

The Riverlands:

1. Frey- control busiest crossing route on the Green Fork, wealthy and numerous, strong castle. Can field 4,000 men easily, 1,000 of which are knights. Have vassals of their own (Haigh, Erenford, Charlton)

2. Tully- the Great House, control all water traffic at junction of Tumblestone and Red Fork. Good relations seemingly with most houses in region.

3. Mallister- Seagard is a strong castle, and a town grows around it. Formidable warriors historically, usually first defense of Riverlands from ironborn. 

4. Blackwood- Putting these two houses in together and by default, as I believe from inference they are stronger than Vance/Whent/Darry/Mooton/Piper/Ryger/Roote, etc. 

5. Bracken- see above

The Vale of Arryn:

1. Royce- another surprise here, not a Great House at number one. More by default as Arryn's have very weak leadership right now, house about to pass to some amalgamation of Baelish/Sansa/Harry Hardyng

2. Arryn- the name still carries weight, nearly impregnable fortress in the Eyrie. 

3. Grafton- not much info on them militarily, but they control Gulltown and therefore have money. 

4. Hunter- these two go in by default, not much is known about their military strength but flip a coin between Hunter/Redfort/Belmore/Melcolm/Templteton/Waynwood/Coldwater/Waxley/Lynderly, etc.

5. Redfort- see above

The Westerlands:

1. Lannister- Rich, access to gold, Casterly Rock nearly impregenable. Jaime great warrior, Tywin feared leader, Tyrion clever as all get out and Cersei master schemer/evil bitch capable of anything.

2. Lannister- Yup, these guys again. Control, nominally, city and port of Lannisport, can use population to raise troops, theoretically would have the backing of Casterly Rock and vise versa due to blood ties

3. Marbrand- Similar to previous sections, these two houses seem to be close to House Lannister and provide a lot of military support  

4. Crakehall- see above

5. Lefford- The castle controls the main entrance to the Westerlands from the east

The Stormlands:

1. Baratheon of Storm's End- Sort of goes without saying...very powerful house, very strong castle. 

2. Swann- Marcher Lords seem the strongest of Baratheon bannermen, and Swann's are an ancient house with a strong castle

3. Dondarrion- Same criteria as above (Caron would make the list aside from them no longer existing as a House, and we can't get confirmation one way or another whether the Selmy's are knights or nobles)

4. Penrose- Putting them here simply because they haven't been overrun by the Golden Company (unlike the Wylde's, Morrigen's, Mertyn's, Estermont's)

5. Staedmon- ditto

The Iron Islands:

1. Greyjoy- Have powerful navy at their disposal, and have essentially been the Kings on the II, as they remain aloof from rest of Westerosi society for the most part

2. Harlaw- Have their own islands/vassals, multiple branches and castles/keeps

3. Goodbrother- Have multiple branches and castles/keeps

4. Botley- Prominent family

5. Drumm- ditto

The Crownlands:

1. Baratheon/Lannister- Royal family, have the loyalty of Crownlands Houses minus Narrow Sea lords, plus Gold Cloaks and position in Westeros' largest city

2. Baratheon of Dragonstone- Strong island fortress, commands loyalty of Narrow Sea houses (Sunglass, Bar Emmon, Velaryon, Celtigar), seemingly over their loyalty to Iron Throne; naval power

3. Massey- Seem like one of the few legit strong Crownsland houses

4. Staunton- ditto

5. Brune- preeminent house of Crackclaw Point, can fairly safely assume has vassal houses (Cave, Crabb, Hardy, Pyne), multiple branches (Dyre Den and Brownhollow)

The Reach:

1. Hightower- Rulers of Oldtown, ancient and large family

2. Tyrell- Great House, rule large area and population

3. Redwyne- Wealthy and well-protected by island location, strongest private navy in Westeros

4. Tarly- Strong military leadership

5. Toss up between Rowan/Oakheart/Florent/Fossoway's/Costayne/Cuy/Crane/etc.

Dorne:

1. Martell- Great House, two castles (Sunspear, Water Gardens), very loyal bannermen

2. Yronwood- Powerful, ancient, guard the Boneway

3. Fowler- Guards Prince's Pass

4. Wyl- Dornish Marcher Lords

5. Blackmont- Dornish Marcher Lords

 

What would your list/reasons be? 

 

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I suspect that Dustins should be either 3rd or 4th strongest house in the North. Or they are stronger than Karlstarks and could even challenge Boltons.

They could be even more ancient house than either Starks or Boltons (assuming they were Barrowkings).

They control huge area of land, major population center, had their own allies and bannermen and powerful military including those Barrowknights. 

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The Dustins are likely on a par with the Boltons, or close to them. I would rate them as the 3rd most powerful bannermen of the Starks, after the Manderlys in first place and the Boltons in 2nd. 

Then the Ryswells should be in the Karstark league.

So my ranking of the Northern Banner houses:

Level 1: Manderly

Level 2: Bolton/Dustin

Level 3: Karstark/Ryswell/Umber/Flint of Widow’s Watch

Level 4: Glover/Tallhart/Reed/Cerwyn/Slate/Locke/Flint of Flint’s Finger/Hornwood/Mormont

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North is Manderly, Dustin and only after them, Boltons. And that is an if because Karstarks are on par with them, either slightly weaker or slightly more powerful.

Dustin owns the second largest population center with at least one bannermen so well off he equips his men better than Freys, who are oh so rich and yet weaker than Boltons? Winter Wolves alone had 2000 HORSE. It was the Dustin and Manderly votes along with Stark ones that mattered in the Great Council not Bolton one.

In my signature you can find almost all of the number information we have compiled along with some estimations through what we know.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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11 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

North is Manderly, Dustin and only after them, Boltons. And that is an if because Karstarks are on par with them, either slightly weaker or slightly more powerful.

On what basis are the Dustins ahead of the Boltons? Certainly nothing seen in the books. 

11 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Dustin owns the second largest population center with at least one bannermen so well off he equips his men better than Freys, who are oh so rich and yet weaker than Boltons?

Which bannerman equips his men better than the Freys? How many of the 1,000 Frey knights are worse equipped that these soldiers you are referring to? 

11 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Winter Wolves alone had 2000 HORSE. 

Sure, but just because they are led by a Dustin does not mean they are all Dustin men. 

 

On 6/11/2018 at 8:47 PM, Hammers1895 said:

 

 

4. Umber- Another ancient line, seems like good number of soldiers available considering sparse population to draw from, known genetically for physical strength and size .

The Greatjon and his brood are powerful, but there is little to suggest that as a House they are. The Karstarks provided far more men and there is little mention from Tyrion of their banners when he is facing the 17k Northern army on the Green Fork. 

On 6/11/2018 at 8:47 PM, Hammers1895 said:

 

3. Mallister- Seagard is a strong castle, and a town grows around it. Formidable warriors historically, usually first defense of Riverlands from ironborn. 

From what we have seen they are not that powerful. The Vances are likely the third most powerful given it is only them and the Freys who has a Lordly bannerman, while the rest of the Riverlords would just have knightly and petty lords as their vassals. 

On 6/11/2018 at 8:47 PM, Hammers1895 said:

 

 

3. Grafton- not much info on them militarily, but they control Gulltown and therefore have money. 

 

they share control of Gulltown, they don't control it all. 

 

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Dustins own 2nd largest population center, Barrowton in the huge area called Barrowlands.They claim descent from Barrow Kings. Boltons don't command the land Red Kings used to, Hornwoods control a great portion of that land now. 

We saw Stout men wearing brigandines and we saw the Frey men wearing mail. Brigandine is more expensive than mail and also worn over it, not instead of it.

During Dance North sends 3 armies. One commanded by Starks, one by Manderlies and one by Dustins. From AGOT we know who gathers where. So there could only be Ryswells with Dustins in that 2000. Perhaps also some Flints from their Finger. So 2, at most 3 houses sending 2000 horse men. At a time where Freys commanded 800 men instead of 4000 they do now. Freys definitely extended their lands over time as Charltons became their vassals later on, but still 2000 to 800 with no mention of any Ryswells or Flints?

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Dustins own 2nd largest population center, Barrowton in the huge area called Barrowlands.They claim descent from Barrow Kings.

The Glovers also are descended from Kings, it does not really mean much in the present day. Who knows how large their 'kingdom' once was. What we do know is that it was the Boltons who were the last to submit and the biggest threat to the Starks. 

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Boltons don't command the land Red Kings used to, Hornwoods control a great portion of that land now. 

Looking at the map there seems to be as much potential land for the Boltons as there is for the Dustins. There is also three major rivers that possibly are on their land. 

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

We saw Stout men wearing brigandage and we saw the Frey men wearing mail. Brigandine is more expensive than mail and also worn over it, not instead of it.

And we saw how many Stout men wear it? Two of his guards? 

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

During Dance North sends 3 armies. One commanded by Starks, one by Manderlies and one by Dustins. From AGOT we know who gathers where. So there could only be Ryswells with Dustins in that 2000.

No, that is ridiculous. They were led by a Dustin, it stands to reason that would be where the Winter Wolves north of Barrowton would gather before marching. 

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 At a time where Freys commanded 800 men instead of 4000 they do now.

For someone who has created so many threads on this subject it suprises how many details you overlook. This was not the Freys, or the Riverlands or Westerlands, first battle. They had been fighting for around a year, starting in 129  while the  battle of the Fishfeed occurred in 130

There were many such supporters in the riverlands, who rose in their thousands and joined the prince's host in Rhaenyra's name. Notable amongst them was the puissant knight, Lord Forrest Frey, who had once been a suitor for Rhaenyra's hand.....Lord Forrest fought gallantly for the queen he had loved, until the Fishfeed, where he was amongst many lords and knights killed in the war's bloodiest battle. 

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Freys definitely extended their lands over time as Charltons became their vassals later on, but still 2000 to 800 with no mention of any Ryswells or Flints?

eh? 

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Glovers also are descended from Kings, it does not really mean much in the present day. Who knows how large their 'kingdom' once was. What we do know is that it was the Boltons who were the last to submit and the biggest threat to the Stark

Perhaps I should have been clearer; Dustins claim descent from Barrow Kings who obviously either took their name from, or gave their name to Barrowlands which you can see for the huge expanse of land it is.

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

ooking at the map there seems to be as much potential land for the Boltons as there is for the Dustins. There is also three major rivers that possibly are on their land

I would like quotes on that, please. I am mostly posting from phone so I'll post later the boundaries of FORMER Bolton lands and CURRENT Hornwood lands, which were obviously part of Red Kings of old.

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

And we saw how many Stout men wear it? Two of his guards?

 

And how many Frey soldiers with better armor have we seen? Zero? 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, that is ridiculous. They were led by a Dustin, it stands to reason that would be where the Winter Wolves north of Barrowton would gather before marching. 

Now you are being ridiculous; Three armies mean armies gathered. We know from Robb's host the houses that gathered at Winterfell. We also know the ones that would gather near MC. So there's two gathering places for marching south.

Some have, however, didn't march south but sailed there. Manderlied influence lands east of WK but even if they didn't do so back then, those houses east of WK will all be closer to WH so it is more reasonable that they'd gather there and sail south instead of marching a longer way to another gathering place just so they could march even more to join the fight

 
 

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

For someone who has created so many threads on this subject it suprises how many details you overlook. This was not the Freys, or the Riverlands or Westerlands, first battle. They had been fighting for around a year, starting in 129  while the  battle of the Fishfeed occurred in 130

Quote

The Princess and the Queen

West of Harrenhal, fighting continued in the riverlands as the Lannister host slogged onward. The age and infirmity of their commander, Lord Lefford, had slowed their march to a crawl, but as they neared the western shores of the Gods Eye, they found a huge new army athwart their path.

Roddy the Ruin and his Winter Wolves had joined with Forrest Frey, Lord of the Crossing, and Red Robb Rivers, known as the Bowman of Raventree. The northmen numbered two thousand, Frey commanded two hundred knights and thrice as many foot, Rivers brought three hundred archers to the fray. And scarce had Lord Lefford halted to confront the foe in front of him when more enemies appeared to the south, where Longleaf the Lionslayer and a ragged band of survivors from the earlier battles had been joined by the Lords Bigglestone, Chambers, and Perryn.

No I do not. Freys came together with Roddy the Ruin and Red Robb Rivers and are not part of Longleaf's survivors.

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh?

Charltons are Frey bannermen in current timeline but they weren't always so. They are listed apart from Freys both in Book of Swords and TPATQ. So they must have become bannermen later on. It wouldn't be the only example; Andal Toletts under Royce, all those lands under Manderlys control who came only some thousand years before or even the Westerman living near the border swearing Fealty to Tyrells during Tytos' rule.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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21 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

North is Manderly, Dustin and only after them, Boltons. And that is an if because Karstarks are on par with them, either slightly weaker or slightly more powerful.

Dustin owns the second largest population center with at least one bannermen so well off he equips his men better than Freys, who are oh so rich and yet weaker than Boltons? Winter Wolves alone had 2000 HORSE. It was the Dustin and Manderly votes along with Stark ones that mattered in the Great Council not Bolton one.

In my signature you can find almost all of the number information we have compiled along with some estimations through what we know.

As we have discussed before, the evidence for the Bolton strength is pretty solid. Now, the Dustins MAY match or exceed this, but we cannot state that definitively as yet.

If they do exceed it, it is because of their great strength, not because of Bolton weakness. The Boltons are a very powerful House, with a strength in excess of 4000 men, including substantial cavalry numbers.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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30 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As we have discussed before, the evidence for the Bolton strength is pretty solid. Now, the Dustins MAY match or exceed this, but we cannot state that as yet.

If they do exceed it, it is because of their great strength, not because of Bolton weakness. The Boltons are a very powerful House, with a strength in excess of 4000 men, including substantial cavalry numbers.

As before Boltons WERE a very powerful house as Red Kings. lands of Bolton LORDS  are not as extensive as lands of Bolton KINGS.

And again It was the Dustin and Mandely votes that counted as important in Great Council, not Bolton.

We have no indication of Boltons having 4000 men, we haven't even seen the Manderlys with so many men( 2100 men so far; 1250-1550 infantry and 550-850 horse) and they are the most powerful Stark Bannermen with the biggest settlement with a huge area of land in a part of the North with a better climate.

Again, "one in five" of "twenty thousand" men Roose had in MC are not all his. ~4100 who managed to ford the Ruby are also not his alone. He left behind 600 men who are not his. He has enough Umbers and Mountain clansmen and Karstark men among the 3000 infantry and 500 horse that Arya takes notice. He has some Locke men who were caught mid ford, as evidenced with their lords being there. Some men from the other houses may also have been part of his forces, we do not know. That 500 horse obviously does not belong to him alone as he has several lords with him who would have their own mounted escort/guard and mounted standardbearers as seen in GF.

 

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As before Boltons WERE a very powerful house as Red Kings. lands of Bolton LORDS  are not as extensive as lands of Bolton KINGS.

And again It was the Dustin and Mandely votes that counted as important in Great Council, not Bolton.

We have no indication of Boltons having 4000 men, we haven't even seen the Manderlys with so many men( 2100 men so far; 1250-1550 infantry and 550-850 horse) and they are the most powerful Stark Bannermen with the biggest settlement with a huge area of land in a part of the North with a better climate.

Again, "one in five" of "twenty thousand" men Roose had in MC are not all his. ~4100 who managed to ford the Ruby are also not his alone. He left behind 600 men who are not his. He has enough Umbers and Mountain clansmen and Karstark men among the 3000 infantry and 500 horse that Arya takes notice. He has some Locke men who were caught mid ford, as evidenced with their lords being there. Some men from the other houses may also have been part of his forces, we do not know. That 500 horse obviously does not belong to him alone as he has several lords with him who would have their own mounted escort/guard and mounted standardbearers as seen in GF.

 

You don’t have to denigrate House Bolton’s strength in order to have House Dustin above them. House Dustin could very well be above House Bolton in strengh even if Bolton has 4000+ men.

I have previously explained why the Boltons had to have in excess of 600 cavalry with Roose to plausibly explain the 3300 mounted lancers gathered at Winterfell, especially after the Karstarks brought so few, and the Clansmen and Mormonts were unlikely to have significant cavalry numbers.

Add at least a few hundred cavalry in Ramsay’s force and it is clear that House Bolton easily exceeds 800 cavalry. With a likely 4-1 cavalry ratio in the North, that easily gives House Bolton 4000+ men.

 

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10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

On what basis are the Dustins ahead of the Boltons? Certainly nothing seen in the books. 

Which bannerman equips his men better than the Freys? How many of the 1,000 Frey knights are worse equipped that these soldiers you are referring to? 

Sure, but just because they are led by a Dustin does not mean they are all Dustin men. 

 

The Greatjon and his brood are powerful, but there is little to suggest that as a House they are. The Karstarks provided far more men and there is little mention from Tyrion of their banners when he is facing the 17k Northern army on the Green Fork. 

From what we have seen they are not that powerful. The Vances are likely the third most powerful given it is only them and the Freys who has a Lordly bannerman, while the rest of the Riverlords would just have knightly and petty lords as their vassals. 

they share control of Gulltown, they don't control it all. 

 

The Shetts have a tower. They control most of the city.

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12 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You don’t have to denigrate House Bolton’s strength in order to have House Dustin above them. House Dustin could very well be above House Bolton in strengh even if Bolton has 4000+ men.

I have previously explained why the Boltons had to have in excess of 600 cavalry with Roose to plausibly explain the 3300 mounted lancers gathered at Winterfell, especially after the Karstarks brought so few, and the Clansmen and Mormonts were unlikely to have significant cavalry numbers.

Add at least a few hundred cavalry in Ramsay’s force and it is clear that House Bolton easily exceeds 800 cavalry. With a likely 4-1 cavalry ratio in the North, that easily gives House Bolton 4000+ men.

 

I am not denigrating it for Dustins to be powerful, in fact I highly doubt even Dustins have that many men. Manderlys certainly must have that many but I doubt any other Northerners have more than 4000. Karstarks have so far near 3000 men but some may be boys, we don't know. Boltons also have more  or less the same amount from what we have seen.

Dustins should obviously be more powerful than both so they may have close to 4000 but think of it this way; If they have 4000, or over it, Manderlys must have some 5000-6000. Even Hightowers only have some 15000 men and that is at most( my guess is 12000 or so) They command so large an area that they could be LP themselves and their lands are obviously more fertile. It gets even worse with Boltons having so many cavalry because it inflates Manderly numbers even more. 

We have seen the North having 30000 men at most and I remember Ran saying it was a Winter army. 

So say, 4000 Boltons, 4500 Dustins to exceed them a little, 6000 Manderlys to exceed them reasonably and we already make half of that number. Add to that 3000-4000 mountain clansmen, 3000 Karstarks we have so far seen, at worst some 2000 Starks and some 2000 Glovers(Stannis alone has some 1000 wood clansmen) at worst some 4000 Tallhart, Hornwood, Cerwyn put together, at worst some 1500 Umbers, at worst some 4000 Ryswell, Locke and Flint together and you can see where it goes. Some of these numbers are made up of course but they aren't baseless.

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14 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I am not denigrating it for Dustins to be powerful, in fact I highly doubt even Dustins have that many men. Manderlys certainly must have that many but I doubt any other Northerners have more than 4000. Karstarks have so far near 3000 men but some may be boys, we don't know. Boltons also have more  or less the same amount from what we have seen.

Dustins should obviously be more powerful than both so they may have close to 4000 but think of it this way; If they have 4000, or over it, Manderlys must have some 5000-6000. Even Hightowers only have some 15000 men and that is at most( my guess is 12000 or so) They command so large an area that they could be LP themselves and their lands are obviously more fertile. It gets even worse with Boltons having so many cavalry because it inflates Manderly numbers even more. 

We have seen the North having 30000 men at most and I remember Ran saying it was a Winter army. 

So say, 4000 Boltons, 4500 Dustins to exceed them a little, 6000 Manderlys to exceed them reasonably and we already make half of that number. Add to that 3000-4000 mountain clansmen, 3000 Karstarks we have so far seen, at worst some 2000 Starks and some 2000 Glovers(Stannis alone has some 1000 wood clansmen) at worst some 4000 Tallhart, Hornwood, Cerwyn put together, at worst some 1500 Umbers, at worst some 4000 Ryswell, Locke and Flint together and you can see where it goes. Some of these numbers are made up of course but they aren't baseless.

Yes, then you get closer to the 45000 strength of the North, according to the wiki and the 2005 RPG numbers endorsed by George.

If you have a problem with the Manderleys having 6000 men from their vast by southron standards territory and prosperous city, then why have no problem with the Freys having 5000 (a third of the Hightower strength) despite having no city or town whatsoever?

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No I do not. Freys came together with Roddy the Ruin and Red Robb Rivers and are not part of Longleaf's survivors.

It is right there in the quote ....Lord Forrest fought gallantly for the queen he had loved, until the Fishfeed, where he was amongst many lords and knights killed in the war's bloodiest battle. 

the Fishfeed was not the Frey's entry into the battle, and the Fishfeed takes place in 130, the war had started a year earlier in 129.  The reason for the low numbers from the Riverland Houses is pretty clear they had been fighting for around a year, casualties are going to mount. i

Quote

Charltons are Frey bannermen in current timeline but they weren't always so. They are listed apart from Freys both in Book of Swords and TPATQ. So they must have become bannermen later on.

eh? I have no idea what this means. 

When Renly lists the Houses that support the Hightowers and their Lordly vassals are listed apart. Them being listed apart means nothing. Though, I'm not sure what this had to do with my point. 

 

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Perhaps I should have been clearer; Dustins claim descent from Barrow Kings who obviously either took their name from, or gave their name to Barrowlands which you can see for the huge expanse of land it is.

The North is huge, pretty much most of the lords own a huge expanse of land. I'm not sure what your point is here. 

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

I would like quotes on that, please. I am mostly posting from phone so I'll post later the boundaries of FORMER Bolton lands and CURRENT Hornwood lands, which were obviously part of Red Kings of old.

I'll provide quotes for the boundaries of the Bolton lands when you provide quotes for the Dustin lands. 

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And how many Frey soldiers with better armor have we seen? Zero? 

lol so your argument that a couple of soldiers seen in decent Armour means the Dustins are now more powerful than a House with around 4k soldiers, 1k of which was just knights. 

We have not seen any Lannister l men wear Brigandine either, going by your logic I guess you think the Dustins are more powerful than them as well. 

Nor do we see any of the Kingsguard, Loras, Garlan, Renly in fact the vast majority of the richest characters in the world don't wear it. 

We have seen it mentioned four times, a man Victarion presumed was a Smith, the few guards of House Stout, the disguised Alleras and the incognito Daemon Blackfyre II.  Four times it is mentioned in the entire series, and only once for someone who is actually fighting in a war. 

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Now you are being ridiculous; Three armies mean armies gathered. We know from Robb's host the houses that gathered at Winterfell. We also know the ones that would gather near MC. So there's two gathering places for marching south.

No, you are jumping to conclusions. There is not a single piece of evidence that suggests that the Winter Wolves were all Dustin men. 

Cregan had sent a small force while it was still summer and the rest of his force came when it was winter. 

 Nowhere in the Seven Kingdoms did the winter matter more than in the North—and the fear of such a winter had driven the Winter Wolves to gather beneath the banner of Lord Roderick Dustin and die fighting for queen Rhaenyra. But behind them came a greater army of childless and homeless men, unwed men, old men, and younger sons, under the banner of Lord Cregan Stark. They had come for a war, for adventure and plunder, and for a glorious death to spare their kin beyond the Neck one more mouth to feed.

The Winter Wolves are led by Dustin, but there is nothing to indicate that they are all Dustin men. 

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Some have, however, didn't march south but sailed there.

The Manderly force was tiny in comparion, in the hundreds rather than the thousands

Ser Medrick Manderly, leading a hundred White Harbor men, did the same for the area northeast of Aegon’s High Hill, down to the Iron Gate.

and they are always referred to as White harbor or Manderly men, the Winter Wolves are not. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is right there in the quote ....Lord Forrest fought gallantly for the queen he had loved, until the Fishfeed, where he was amongst many lords and knights killed in the war's bloodiest battle. 

I don't know what you are trying to get at by posting the same quote over and over but fine, I'll play along.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Riverlands: House Tully

Lord Forrest fought gallantly for the queen he had loved, until the Fishfeed, where he was amongst many lords and knights killed in the war's bloodiest battle. His widow, the Lady Sabitha of House Vypren, proved redoubtable for her courage and notorious for her lack of mercy. According to Mushroom, she was a "sharp-featured, sharp-tongued harridan of House Vypren, who would sooner ride than dance, wore mail instead of silk, and was fond of killing men and kissing women."

 

Quote

The Princess and the Queen

West of Harrenhal, fighting continued in the riverlands as the Lannister host slogged onward. The age and infirmity of their commander, Lord Lefford, had slowed their march to a crawl, but as they neared the western shores of the Gods Eye, they found a huge new army athwart their path.

Roddy the Ruin and his Winter Wolves had joined with Forrest Frey, Lord of the Crossing, and Red Robb Rivers, known as the Bowman of Raventree. The northmen numbered two thousand, Frey commanded two hundred knights and thrice as many foot, Rivers brought three hundred archers to the fray. And scarce had Lord Lefford halted to confront the foe in front of him when more enemies appeared to the south, where Longleaf the Lionslayer and a ragged band of survivors from the earlier battles had been joined by the Lords Bigglestone, Chambers, and Perryn.

Caught between these two foes, Lefford hesitated to move against either, for fear of the other falling on his rear. Instead he put his back to the lake, dug in, and send ravens to Prince Aemond at Harrenhal, begging his aid. Though a dozen birds took wing, not one ever reached the prince; Red Robb Rivers, said to be the finest archer in all Westeros, took them down on the wing.

It is right there in the title, the book where the quote was taken. One is taken from TPATQ and gives us more detail while the other is taken from TWOIAF. Army with Frey, Robb Rivers and Wolves are described as new, while the second one is Longleaf's survivors.

 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'll provide quotes for the boundaries of the Bolton lands when you provide quotes for the Dustin lands. 

Here is the boundaries for FORMER Bolton lands as I said I would post.

Quote

House Greenwood, House Towers, House Amber, and House Frost met similar ends, together with a score of lesser houses and petty kings whose very names are lost to history. Yet the bitterest foes of Winterfell were undoubtedly the Red Kings of the Dreadfort, those grim lords of House Bolton whose domains of old stretched from the Last River to the White Knife, and as far south as the Sheepshead Hills.

 

Quote

Hornwood is a castle in the north and the seat of House Hornwood.[2] The castle is located in the Hornwood forest near the northwestern edge of the Sheepshead Hills,[1] which are within the dominion of House Manderly,[3] and the Hornwood lands also neighbor those of House Bolton to the North.

Hornwood lands from Wiki. 

Quote

Jovial Lord Hornwood had no daughters, but he did bring gifts, a horse one day, a haunch of venison the next, a silver-chased hunting horn the day after, and he asked nothing in return … nothing but a certain holdfast taken from his grandfather, and hunting rights north of a certain ridge, and leave to dam the White Knife, if it please the lord.

In addition to what is written in wiki, this shows us their land is near White Knife, the river where " House Bolton whose domains of old stretched from Last River to"

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol so your argument that a couple of soldiers seen in decent Armour means the Dustins are now more powerful than a House with around 4k soldiers, 1k of which was just knights. 

And where have I said Dustins are more powerful in numbers? You are twisting my words. Not that I am saying they have fewer numbers, we don't know.

Quote

Dustin owns the second largest population center with at least one bannermen so well off he equips his men better than Freys, who are oh so rich and yet weaker than Boltons?

This is what I said. Oh and since we are delving into numbers again...

Quote

"House Florent can field two thousand swords at best." It was said that Stannis knew the strength of every house in the Seven Kingdoms. "And you have a deal more faith in your brothers and uncles than I do, my lady. The Florent lands lie too close to Highgarden for your lord uncle to risk Mace Tyrell's wrath."

Lord Stannis himself was still on the march, but his vanguard had appeared two nights ago during the black of the moon. King's Landing had woken to the sight of their tents and banners. They were five thousand, Sansa had heard, near as many as all the gold cloaks in the city. They flew the red or green apples of House Fossoway, the turtle of Estermont, and the fox-and-flowers of Florent, and their commander was Ser Guyard Morrigen, a famous southron knight who men now called Guyard the Green.

Ser Axell proposed to use Salladhor Saan's fleet and the men who had escaped the Blackwater—Stannis still had some fifteen hundred on Dragonstone, more than half of them Florents—

"Power?" The king snorted. "I have thirteen hundred men on Dragonstone, another three hundred at Storm's End." His hand swept over the Painted Table. "The rest of Westeros is in the hands of my foes. I have no fleet but Salladhor Saan's. No coin to hire sellswords. No prospect of plunder or glory to lure freeriders to my cause."

 

I hope these will be enough but I can provide the quotes about Florents that were taken captive/killed and Renly left all his infantry behind and Stannis couldn't get them. As you can see Florents with their 2000 men can field more than 650/750 (depending on Stannis' figüre or Axell's) horse, considering some of them were in the van and there were deaths and/or captives. Near as many knights as Freys, perhaps even more so with those killed, while having only half the number in total.

As you can see, wealth doesn't always correlate with numbers you can field. You can be richer while having fewer troops. In the same region with lands of similar fertility however, you'll likely be wealthier than your neighbour if you have more land.That is unless there are other resources of note.

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We have not seen any Lannister l men wear Brigandine either, going by your logic I guess you think the Dustins are more powerful than them as well. 

Nor do we see any of the Kingsguard, Loras, Garlan, Renly in fact the vast majority of the richest characters in the world don't wear it. 

Lannister men wear boiled leather and mail, we have seen it several times. Though I don't know whether it's better or worse than a brigandine, It is still good armor to mass equip your men and much, much better than the mail only of Freys we have seen. 

Well we see a prince with it if you want to know which richest characters wear it. Also since you are so curious about what the richest wear, they wear plate armor which is both better and more expensive than brigandine, which is leather armor with steel plates/studs on it.

 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We have seen it mentioned four times, a man Victarion presumed was a Smith

And a Smith will be wealthier than most commoners and would know his stuff better. He may or may not have been able to afford plate, we can't know, but he'll certainly not have the training to fight in plate so even if he could afford it a brigandine would be better for him.

 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? I have no idea what this means. 

When Renly lists the Houses that support the Hightowers and their Lordly vassals are listed apart. Them being listed apart means nothing. Though, I'm not sure what this had to do with my point. 

And which bannermen would these be?

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Clash_of_Kings-Appendix

As you can see none of those Hightower bannermen we know were listed as Hightower bannermen at the time and in fact, if you check AGOT appendix Mullendores are listed as Tyrell bannermen and not Hightower. So things get added or changed as the universe progresses.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I don't know what you are trying to get at by posting the same quote over and over but fine, I'll play along.

because that quote is very clear  ....Lord Forrest fought gallantly for the queen he had loved, until the Fishfeed, 

the fishfeed was not his first battle in the war, as that sentence makes zero sense if it was,  and that is not the only quote that backs it up

It was during the early days of the Dance that Prince Daemon Targaryen led Queen Rhaenyra's forces to a bloodless victory at Harrenhal, seizing the castle and making it a rallying place for her supporters. There were many such supporters in the riverlands, who rose in their thousands and joined the prince's host in Rhaenyra's name. Notable amongst them was the puissant knight, Lord Forrest Frey

 

this battle takes place early in 129, the Fishfeed was one of the last battles in 130. there was a lot of battles in between. 

 

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

It is right there in the title, the book where the quote was taken. One is taken from TPATQ and gives us more detail while the other is taken from TWOIAF. Army with Frey, Robb Rivers and Wolves are described as new, while the second one is Longleaf's survivors.

it may well be new, that does not mean Forret or other Frey's had not taken part in any of the other battles that tool part before that. 

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Here is the boundaries for FORMER Bolton lands as I said I would post.

and where are the boundaries for the Dustins land? it is impossible to claim one lords lands are larger when you have no idea how big the Dustin's holdings are, you are merely guessing to win an argument on the internet. 

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I hope these will be enough

 

enough for what? what exactly do you think you are proving? 

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

but I can provide the quotes about Florents that were taken captive/killed and Renly left all his infantry behind and Stannis couldn't get them. As you can see Florents with their 2000 men can field more than 650/750 (depending on Stannis' figüre or Axell's) horse, considering some of them were in the van and there were deaths and/or captives. Near as many knights as Freys, perhaps even more so with those killed, while having only half the number in total.

eh? why on earth are you bringing up the Florents? I'm sorry, you completely lost me, was this reply actually meant for me? 

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As you can see, wealth doesn't always correlate with numbers you can field. You can be richer while having fewer troops. In the same region with lands of similar fertility however, you'll likely be wealthier than your neighbour if you have more land.That is unless there are other resources of note.

eh? The Florents are rich, and they have a high proportion of knights and almost as many knights as the Freys. Beyond that I have no idea what point you are trying to make. 

The Florents are also clearly richer than House Stout or the smith who works on the shield islands despite what some of them are wearing. 

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Lannister men wear boiled leather and mail, we have seen it several times. Though I don't know whether it's better or worse than a brigandine, It is still good armor to mass equip your men and much, much better than the mail only of Freys we have seen. 

everyone in the series wears boiled leather, we have seen the Thenn's beyond the Wall, the BWB and the Ironborn. Are you really under the impression that the Frey' can not afford 'boiled leather'. Is that really your sincere belief? 

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Well we see a prince with it if you want to know which richest characters wear it.

A prince posing as a common knight. 

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And a Smith will be wealthier than most commoners

and yet the man who fought before him, Talbert Serry, was not described as wearing it. Either it means that GRRM does not describe every character's clothing or that the smith was richer than the lord he served. Does it really take that much common sense to work out the answer to this one? 

brigandine is mentioned 3 times in the five main books, are you really under the impression that these are the only characters who wear it? an apprentice Maester, a smith and two Stout guards? 

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And which bannermen would these be?

"Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . .

Mullendore, Beesbury and Cuy are all vassals of House Hightower, they are not all lumped together as one. 

 

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Not that it settles the argument, but the Dustins rule the Barrowlands, which is indeed the largest domain ruled by a vassal House in the North, and therefore in all of Westeros.

It is also undeniable that the Bolton lands of today are smaller than the domains of the Red Kings of old. But that is irrelevant as the numbers raised by Roose are from the current day lands, and do not require the Boltons to be in charge of the full territory of the ancient Red Kings.

If the Boltons can raise 4000 men today, it might be that the ancient Red Kings could raise 6000 or even 8000, as they ruled a larger portion of the North than they do today.

Or, because population numbers and distributions would have changed over the last 3000 years, absolute numbers may not be appropriate as a comparison. Instead, let’s say that if the Boltons have 10% of the strength of the entire North today, the Red Kings may have had 15% or even 20%, at the height of their power, whatever that equated to in the presumably more sparsely populated primitive North of the time.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Not that it settles the argument, but the Dustins rule the Barrowlands, which is indeed the largest domain ruled by a vassal House in the North, and therefore in all of Westeros.

by all means quote where this is either said or even suggested in the books. 

 

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