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Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

by all means quote where this is either said or even suggested in the books. 

 

To satisfy the pedant, let’s refer to it as their “most likely” domain then. Just in case there is some hidden great lord in the North ruling half of the Barrowlands, who for some reason we have not heard a hint of as yet.

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2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

To satisfy the pedant, let’s refer to it as their “most likely” domain then. Just in case there is some hidden great lord in the North ruling half of the Barrowlands, who for some reason we have not heard a hint of as yet.

It is hardly pedantry, we have no idea about where their boundaries are, for example where do the Slates of Blackpool now reside? we have no idea how far either the Tallhart or Cerwyn lands extend south, who technically rules Moat Cailin, if it the Starks how much of that domain extends West into the Barrowlands. 

We are basically clueless about a lot of things of territories in all of Westeros, do all the lords hold just blobs of lands or do they have multiple demesnes scattered around.

So given the huge gaps we have in knowledge it is hardly pedantry to point out that we have no idea which lord in the north holds the most, second most etc. land in the North.  

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7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

because that quote is very clear

So, even if Frey was there at the Harrenhal, which I we don't know, but let's assume he was, that battle was a bloodless victory as said in quote. 

So, assuming again that Frey was indeed in Harrenhal

Quote

All this came to pass even as Prince Aemond and Ser Criston Cole advanced upon the riverlands. After nineteen days on the march, they reached Harrenhal … and found the castle gates open, with Prince Daemon and all his people gone.

Prince Aemond had kept Vhagar with the main column throughout the march, thinking that his uncle might attempt to attack them on Caraxes. He reached Harrenhal a day after Cole, and that night celebrated a great victory; Daemon and his “river scum” had fled rather than face his wroth, Aemond proclaimed. Small wonder then that when word of the fall of King’s Landing reached him, the prince felt thrice the fool. His fury was fearsome to behold.

Harrenhal was abandoned without bloodshed.

Riverlords gathering at Harrenhal. Only Blackwoods are mentioned so Frey may or may not have been joined them but if he did, all the more proof he lost no men, save perhaps some on march.

Quote

The fall of Harrenhal to Prince Daemon came as a great shock to His Grace. Until that moment, Aegon II had believed his half sister’s cause to be hopeless. Harrenhal left His Grace feeling vulnerable for the first time. Subsequent rapid defeats at the Burning Mill and Stone Hedge came as further blows, and made the king realize that his situation was more perilous than it had seemed. These fears deepened as ravens returned from the Reach, where the greens had believed themselves strongest. House Hightower and Oldtown were solidly behind King Aegon, and His Grace had the Arbor too … but elsewhere in the south, other lords were declaring for Rhaenyra, amongst them Lord Costayne of Three Towers, Lord Mullendore of Uplands, Lord Tarly of Horn Hill, Lord Rowan of Goldengrove, and Lord Grimm of Greyshield.

Other blows followed: the Vale, White Harbor, Winterfell. The Blackwoods and the other river lords streamed toward Harrenhal and Prince Daemon’s banners.

 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

and where are the boundaries for the Dustins land? it is impossible to claim one lords lands are larger when you have no idea how big the Dustin's holdings are, you are merely guessing to win an argument on the internet. 

And what are you doing with the Frey post? I have provided Bolton lands as I said I would, we are never told the boundaries of Barrowlands but one can get a good idea of it looking at the map.

 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

enough for what? what exactly do you think you are proving? 

Unless you are on the same region with similar resources, more land may or may not mean you have more numbers and more gold. 

 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

everyone in the series wears boiled leather, we have seen the Thenn's beyond the Wall, the BWB and the Ironborn. Are you really under the impression that the Frey' can not afford 'boiled leather'. Is that really your sincere belief? 

 

Quote

The company included more swords than Catelyn would have liked. Three by the fire wore the red stallion badge of the Brackens, and there was a large party in blue steel ringmail and capes of a silvery grey. On their shoulder was another familiar sigil, the twin towers of House Frey. She studied their faces, but they were all too young to have known her. The senior among them would have been no older than Bran when she went north.

A swollen red sun hung low against the western hills when the gates of the castle opened. The drawbridge creaked down, the portcullis winched up, and Lady Catelyn Stark rode forth to rejoin her son and his lords bannermen. Behind her came Ser Jared Frey, Ser Hosteen Frey, Ser Danwell Frey, and Lord Walder's bastard son Ronel Rivers, leading a long column of pikemen, rank on rank of shuffling men in blue steel ringmail and silvery grey cloaks.

Above are search results for Frey and chainmail/mail/ringmail. I would have added the results with Frey and boiled leather, but sadly there are none.

Walder's sons are wearing plate but not their soldiers.

 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

A prince posing as a common knight. 

By which you mean he'd sooner ride a whore than a horse," the first man said. Thickly built and powerful, the prince—he was surely a prince— wore a leather brigandine covered with silver studs beneath a heavy black cloak trimmed with ermine.

Indeed he is. As common a Knight as you can get with silver studs and cloak with Ermine. Not to mention Dunk is the Lunk so he can easily  mistake a commoner for a prince.

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And yet the man who fought before him, Talbert Serry, was not described as wearing it. Either it means that GRRM does not describe every character's clothing or that the smith was richer than the lord he served. Does it really take that much common sense to work out the answer to this one? 

Again, you are twisting my words. I have never said we get a descrpiton of what everyone wears but we clearly get a description of what Frey soldiers wear. Also I have said most lords would be wearing plate armor, which is better and more expensive, so again, you are twisting my words to win some argument on the internet, which you claimed I was doing in this very same post.

 

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Mullendore, Beesbury and Cuy are all vassals of House Hightower, they are not all lumped together as one. 

And did I say they are not? Or have I asked which ones are Hightower vassals? 

 

22 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And which bannermen would these be?

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Clash_of_Kings-Appendix

As you can see none of those Hightower bannermen we know were listed as Hightower bannermen at the time and in fact, if you check AGOT appendix Mullendores are listed as Tyrell bannermen and not Hightower. So things get added or changed as the universe progresses.

This is what I said. Have you even bothered to check the link to see these houses aren't listed in that appendix as Hightower bannermen? It is entirely possible GRRM haven't decided that these houses would be Hightower bannermen and in Mullendores' case he later decided he would be Hightower men instead of Tyrell.

You are so set on winning this internet argument you are twisting my words, pulling single sentences out of context to reply to and don't even bother to check the sources because they will prove you wrong.

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2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So, even if Frey was there at the Harrenhal, which I we don't know,

we do know, it is said in the quote. 

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

but let's assume he was, that battle was a bloodless victory as said in quote. 

So, assuming again that Frey was indeed in Harrenhal

Harrenhal was abandoned without bloodshed.

and yet we are told that Frey had fought gallantly UNTIL, the Fishfeed. the fishfeed was not his first battle in that war. 

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Riverlords gathering at Harrenhal. Only Blackwoods are mentioned so Frey may or may not have been joined them but if he did, all the more proof he lost no men, save perhaps some on march.

read the actual quotes I gave you 

It was during the early days of the Dance that Prince Daemon Targaryen led Queen Rhaenyra's forces to a bloodless victory at Harrenhal, seizing the castle and making it a rallying place for her supporters. There were many such supporters in the riverlands, who rose in their thousands and joined the prince's host in Rhaenyra's name. Notable amongst them was the puissant knight, Lord Forrest Frey

  1. how can he be notable amongst them if he was not there? 
  2. how can he have fought gallantlhy until the fishfeed if that was his first actual battle? 

the war kicks of in 129, the battle of the fishfeed happens in mid 130 and there are a lot of battles we are not told about, though the constant changes in who leads the Westerland host is a good example of there frequent battles. 

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

And what are you doing with the Frey post? I have provided Bolton lands as I said I would, we are never told the boundaries of Barrowlands but one can get a good idea of it looking at the map.

not really. you are guessing, nothing more. 

we are all, even I'm guessing Ran, clueless when it comes to the boundaries and territories of the vast majority of the lords of westeros. 

When it comes to the Dustins we have no idea how far their land extends north, or how far the Cerwyn's or Tallharts land extend south.  we know the Dustins don't rule the lands around moat cailin, so we have no idea how far their lands extend east or where their border are with the Ryswells. 

The biggest indication of their power is in the fact that lady Dustin could challenge Roose

White Harbor might prove troublesome should Lord Wyman survive this coming battle … but I am quite sure that he will not. No more than Stannis. Roose will remove both of them, as he removed the Young Wolf. Who else is there?"
"You," said Theon. "There is you. The Lady of Barrowton, a Dustin by marriage, a Ryswell by birth."
That pleased her. She took a sip of wine, her dark eyes sparkling, and said, "The widow of Barrowton … and yes, if I so choose, I could be an inconvenience. Of course, Roose sees that too, so he takes care to keep me sweet."
 
 
but beyond that we have no idea of their military power or how many people live in their lands, so while I don't claim they are not as powerful as you think they are, I just don't think there is enough information to back up your claim. 
2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Unless you are on the same region with similar resources, more land may or may not mean you have more numbers and more gold. 

i'm sorry, i am still lost on what point you were trying to make. 

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Above are search results for Frey and chainmail/mail/ringmail. I would have added the results with Frey and boiled leather, but sadly there are none.

Walder's sons are wearing plate but not their soldiers.

again, eh? is this some kind of smoking gun? 

we know the freys are wealthy, the author himself describes them as such in the appendix while Cat, daughter of one overlord and married to another, describes them as such. now either the author has been playing an elaborate hoax with the reader about something as pointless as a secondary house's wealth or the two times he described some of their warriors is not a true indication of all of them any more than the two Stout guards is a reflection for the entire Dustin military force. 

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

By which you mean he'd sooner ride a whore than a horse," the first man said. Thickly built and powerful, the prince—he was surely a prince— wore a leather brigandine covered with silver studs beneath a heavy black cloak trimmed with ermine.

Indeed he is. As common a Knight as you can get with silver studs and cloak with Ermine. Not to mention Dunk is the Lunk so he can easily  mistake a commoner for a prince.

and? the incognito prince joins the smith, the acolyte at the citadel and the stout guards in being the only people rich enough to wear such equipment. 

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Again, you are twisting my words. I have never said we get a descrpiton of what everyone wears but we clearly get a description of what Frey soldiers wear.

twice. one random group of men at an inn, clearly ready for war and the second the frey pikemen. 

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Also I have said most lords would be wearing plate armor, which is better and more expensive, so again, you are twisting my words to win some argument on the internet, which you claimed I was doing in this very same post.

dude, i can say hand on heart no one is winning at this discussion, not you, not me and not the poor bastards who are still reading it 

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

And did I say they are not? Or have I asked which ones are Hightower vassals? 

it seemed like that is exactly what you were asking me. 

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

This is what I said. Have you even bothered to check the link to see these houses aren't listed in that appendix as Hightower bannermen? It is entirely possible GRRM haven't decided that these houses would be Hightower bannermen and in Mullendores' case he later decided he would be Hightower men instead of Tyrell.

no idea your point i gave you a clear example, not sure why you are not trying to move the goalposts, oh wait a minute, it is obvious why you are now trying to change the argument. 

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

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46 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:
  • how can he be notable amongst them if he was not there? 
  • how can he have fought gallantlhy until the fishfeed if that was his first actual battle? 

Even if he was in Harrenhal, when and where did he fight? We know Blackwoods were at Harrenhal and they join Winterwolves much later, at Fishfeed, with a new lord at their head. And even if he fought in some place, he didn't lose many men as his rounded figures of 200 horse to 600 foot still gives us the 1:3 ratio we see with the Freys.

 

46 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

and? the incognito prince joins the smith, the acolyte at the citadel and the stout guards in being the only people rich enough to wear such equipment. 

Equipping yourself and a son or two if you are a landed knigt or a lord is one thing, equipping masses of men is another.

And by the way those aren't the only ones wearing it.

Quote

The last of the three was a youth as skinny as his longbow, if not quite as tall. Red-haired and freckled, he wore a studded brigantine, high boots, fingerless leather gloves, and a quiver on his back. His arrows were fletched with grey goose feathers, and six of them stood in the ground before him, like a little fence.

Anguy

 

Quote

The white cloak of the Kingsguard was draped over his broad shoulders and fastened with a jeweled brooch, the snowy cloth looking somehow unnatural against his brown roughspun tunic and studded leather jerkin.

Sandor as KG.

Quote

As he neared, she saw that Stannis wore a crown of red gold with points fashioned in the shape of flames. His belt was studded with garnets and yellow topaz, and a great square-cut ruby was set in the hilt of the sword he wore. Otherwise his dress was plain: studded leather jerkin over quilted doublet, worn boots, breeches of brown roughspun.

Stannis as King.

Of course, it is much easier to twist my words, even after I have just mentioned the plate wearing sons of Walder and have said earlier lords would be wearing plate.

 

Also another brigandine wearer, Bronn in KL employed by Tyrion:

Quote

Bronn came in behind him. The sellsword knight wore a jerkin studded with silver and a heavy riding cloak, with a pair of fine-tooled leather gloves thrust through his swordbelt.

Bronn's equipment before he became Tyrion's men.

Quote

He wore only a shirt of black oiled ringmail over boiled leather a round steel halfhelm with a noseguard, and a mail coif. High leather boots with steel shinguards gave some protection to his legs, and discs of black iron were sewn into the fingers of his gloves.

 

46 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

no idea your point i gave you a clear example, not sure why you are not trying to move the goalposts, oh wait a minute, it is obvious why you are now trying to change the argument. 

I have no idea what that empty quote is supposed to mean.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Even if he was in Harrenhal, when and where did he fight? We know Blackwoods were at Harrenhal and they join Winterwolves much later, at Fishfeed, with a new lord at their head. And even if he fought in some place, he didn't lose many men as his rounded figures of 200 horse to 600 foot still gives us the 1:3 ratio we see with the Freys.

We have no idea how many men he had left, or if any freys took part in other battles such as the battle of the red fork, or even how many battles there were in the riverlands both before he battle of the red fork or between the battle of the red fork and the fishfeed. there is an awful lot of missing information. he may well have fought in the battle of the red fork and returned home for reinforcements

what we do know, unless the author is lying, is that the battle of the fishfeed was not the first battle in the war that forrest frey had fought in. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is hardly pedantry, we have no idea about where their boundaries are, for example where do the Slates of Blackpool now reside? we have no idea how far either the Tallhart or Cerwyn lands extend south, who technically rules Moat Cailin, if it the Starks how much of that domain extends West into the Barrowlands. 

We are basically clueless about a lot of things of territories in all of Westeros, do all the lords hold just blobs of lands or do they have multiple demesnes scattered around.

So given the huge gaps we have in knowledge it is hardly pedantry to point out that we have no idea which lord in the north holds the most, second most etc. land in the North.  

For most of our theorizing we are forced to use incomplete information. In this case I think it is fair to assume that the Barrow Kings once ruled the Barrowlands, with the Dustins inheriting their mantle.

The Slates of Blackpool were once petty kings themselves and since the Barrowlands were first ruled by Barrow Kings until the Starks conquered their lands, it is a fair assumption to make that the Slates’ petty kingdom was not in the Barrowlands.

Adding to this evidence is the fact that all the surviving Houses mentioned as ruling the Wolfsden at one time or another were from that general area. The Locke’s of Oldcastle, the Flints of nearby Flint’s Finger and of course the Manderlys.

It suggests that the Slates were also from that vicinity.

But more fundamentally, you don’t have petty lords that don’t have greater lords they are sworn to. So if land is occupied, it will have some type of local lord ruling over it. And that lord will be sworn to a greater lord who rules that region, such as the Karstarks, Umbers or Dustins.

So if you have people living between Barrowton and the Rills, they will be sworn to some petty lord, and that petty lord will be sworn either to the Ryswells or the Dustins, because there are no other Northern Great Lords inbetween that we know of. 

And as to where that boundary will be, in the absence of further information, one can assume it is the river separating the Barrowlands from the Rills.

Just like the Reeds rule all of the Neck, the Dustins from Barrowton almost certainly rule all of the Barrowlands.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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We have no clue how large the Barrowlands are, or how large any domains of the Lords of the North are aside from very sketchy information on the size of the Umber and clansmen lands.

I think you guys overestimate the strength of House Bolton above. We never get numbers on the men Roose takes with him down south. We only get numbers on the garrison Ramsay brings to Winterfell, and Theon's guesstimates on the numbers of the men returned from the Twins - but the latter aren't all Bolton men, nor does it mean that all those men who are 'Bolton men' in that army started as 'Bolton men' when they set out.

Men can and do change their allegiances during war. Many a freerider and a levy may have ended up changing his liege during the war, especially after their liege lords died (which happened after the Green Fork and at Harrenhal while Roose had command over the army).

In that sense, our guess about the strength of House Bolton isn't really clear (unlike with the Karstarks, say).

In relation to overall importance it seems pretty clear to me that the Dustins and Manderlys are the most prominent Northern houses after the Starks.

The Boltons and Karstarks are powerful, too, but, by and far, they seem to be of lesser importance than the other two.

That Roose is capable of doing what he does is due to the very specific circumstances during the War of the Five Kings - for one, that he is actually given command of one of the Northern armies, and that no Dustin is with the army, nor the Lord of White Harbor with the strength to claim command from Robb.

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

But more fundamentally, you don’t have petty lords that don’t have greater lords they are sworn to. So if land is occupied, it will have some type of local lord ruling over it. And that lord will be sworn to a greater lord who rules that region, such as the Karstarks, Umbers or Dustins.

That is by no means a given. For instance, we don't know who rules Cape Kraken, the Stony Shore, or Sea Dragon Point - nor do we know that the lords we do know rule over petty lords ruling those regions. After all, that would then mean that the Ryswells, say, (who rule the Rills, not Cape Kraken) would also rule Cape Kraken, or the Glovers or Tallharts the Stony Shore, etc.

And we also know the Skagosi rule themselves, just as the Three Sisters do, being sworn directly to Winterfell and the Eyrie.

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

And as to where that boundary will be, in the absence of further information, one can assume it is the river separating the Barrowlands from the Rills.

We can do no such thing, because we have no idea about any of that.

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just like the Reeds rule all of the Neck, the Dustins from Barrowton almost certainly rule all of the Barrowlands.

That might be the case (it is not confirmed as of yet) but the more important issue there is that we don't happen to know how large the Barrowlands are.

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AGOT

ACOK

ASOS

AFFC

ADWD

These are all maps of the North with Barrowlands labeled on it.

Of course it doesn't give the exact borders but it gives a pretty good idea on where it may or may not extend to.

ADWD is the most fleshed out and it also gives us some idea on how much land can Bolton, Hornwood and Flints may have.

 

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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One can make a guesstimate as to how far east and west the Barrowlands may extend, but certainly not how far north and south. That's completely unclear.

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

One can make a guesstimate as to how far east and west the Barrowlands may extend, but certainly not how far north and south. That's completely unclear.

ADWD map shows it reaching as far North as Wolfswood's edge and as for the south, there isn't much land there, Blazewater bay is there and going east, you have the Fever  which is almost next to MC, so swamplands.

 

Since we are discussing borders, one thing I am very curious is, how much land does Lannisters have, either owned by them, or owned through petty lords and landed knights?

Barristan is offered a keep north of Lannisport but Casterly rock is located north of it, less than a mile away and since even Barrowton's walls are a mile away from it's center, Lannisport with much bigger population will cover a much larger area.

Where exactly is the keep Barristan was supposed to take and where are the Casterly lands located? Or does Lannisport belong to Lannisters of the Rock and CR doesn't own much land beside it?

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As Corvo correctly points out, it is pretty obvious that the Barrowlands are huge. Originally Martin had them include the Rills, on the Book 1 map, but later he carved out the Rills and gave it to the Ryswells. So again, logic dictates that the Barrowlands end at the river on the border of the Rills. Furthermore, we know the general extent of other Northern Lords' holdings, and they are indeed vast.

The Umber lands run along the Kingsroad for 300 miles, between the Lonely hills in the South and the Gift in the North. And they fish the Bay of Seals. So, it is clear they rule an area of about 300 miles North to South, and from the Kingsroad to the ocean, East to West.

The Karstarks logically rule the peninsula southeast of the Umber lands. The Mormonts rule the entire Bear Island, and the Reeds rule the Neck. Lord Varys (I think) asked who rules Cape Kraken, which is is a weird question, as the Flints of Flint's Finger are the only major Stark vassals from that entire peninsula. Obviously the Flints (or their vassals) rule it.

The Glovers rule a good chunk of the Wolfswood, and the only question is where their territory ends and the Starks direct holdings begin. Because again, there are no other major Stark vassals inbetween Winterfell and Deepwood Motte.

The part where the borders of Stark vassals seem most unclear, is the southeast, where a lot of lords seem to hold smaller territories (probably because it is the most densely populated part of the North).  Specifically the Manderlys, Hornwoods, Lockes, Slates and Flints of Widow's Watch seem to live relatively close to each other compared to other major Stark vassals. The Flints likely rule the Widow's Watch peninsula, which is quite an extensive territory. The Locke's rule Oldcastle, but it is not clear how far there domain stretches. And the location of the Slates is indeed a mystery.

But from clues we have it would seem they are also in that general vicinity, or maybe from the Northern half of the Widow's Watch peninsula.

But as for the Barrowlands, it is pretty obvious that it is the largest constituent part of the North.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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26 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The part where the borders of Stark vassals seem most unclear, is the southeast, where a lot of lords seem to hold smaller territories (probably because it is the most densely populated part of the North).  Specifically the Manderlys, Hornwoods, Lockes, Slates and Flints of Widow's Watch seem to live relatively close to each other compared to other major Stark vassals. The Flints likely rule the Widow's Watch peninsula, which is quite an extensive territory. The Locke's rule Oldcastle, but it is not clear how far there domain stretches. And the location of the Slates is indeed a mystery.

But from clues we have it would seem they are also in that general vicinity, or maybe from the Northern half of the Widow's Watch peninsula.

But as for the Barrowlands, it is pretty obvious that it is the largest constituent part of the North.

I don't know about the Slates being in that area. 

Sure they ruled the wolfs den for a while, but that could have been a offshoot or side branch of the main house, just like the Greystarks where an offshoot of house Stark and the Flints of Widows Watch and Flints of Flints Finger are offshoots of the Flint mountain clan.

There seat is named Blackpool, most likely because it is near a body of water by that name. One of the lakes above the Barrowlands and the Rills would be the most likely candidates for this, so i would personally place them there and not in they southeastern area of the North.

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14 minutes ago, direpupy said:

I don't know about the Slates being in that area. 

Sure they ruled the wolfs den for a while, but that could have been a offshoot or side branch of the main house, just like the Greystarks where an offshoot of house Stark and the Flints of Widows Watch and Flints of Flints Finger are offshoots of the Flint mountain clan.

There seat is named Blackpool, most likely because it is near a body of water by that name. One of the lakes above the Barrowlands and the Rills would be the most likely candidates for this, so i would personally place them there and not in they southeastern area of the North.

Yeah thats certainly possible. 

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50 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

ADWD map shows it reaching as far North as Wolfswood's edge and as for the south, there isn't much land there, Blazewater bay is there and going east, you have the Fever  which is almost next to MC, so swamplands.

That doesn't help us determine what lands exactly are part of the Barrowlands, or what domains exactly are ruled by the Dustins.

Having a word written across a map doesn't exactly specify the borders of the named region, no? Nor does it help us to determine the feudal landscape of that region.

50 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Since we are discussing borders, one thing I am very curious is, how much land does Lannisters have, either owned by them, or owned through petty lords and landed knights?

Barristan is offered a keep north of Lannisport but Casterly rock is located north of it, less than a mile away and since even Barrowton's walls are a mile away from it's center, Lannisport with much bigger population will cover a much larger area.

Where exactly is the keep Barristan was supposed to take and where are the Casterly lands located? Or does Lannisport belong to Lannisters of the Rock and CR doesn't own much land beside it?

We have no idea, but if I had to guess I'd say that the Lannisters of Casterly Rock rule both Lannisport and Casterly Rock. They tell their cousins what to do, and they do it. And they seem to have the same hold over most of their other vassals, too.

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Umber lands run along the Kingsroad for 300 miles, between the Lonely hills in the South and the Gift in the North. And they fish the Bay of Seals. So, it is clear they rule an area of about 300 miles North to South, and from the Kingsroad to the ocean, East to West.

For the Umbers we have considerable information.

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Karstarks logically rule the peninsula southeast of the Umber lands.

Well, some of that land, to be sure. But do you know where the borders between the Umber/Karstark or Karstark/Bolton lands are? No, you don't.

And neither do we know whether some other lord not sworn to either of them owns land in-between them.

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Lord Varys (I think) asked who rules Cape Kraken, which is is a weird question, as the Flints of Flint's Finger are the only major Stark vassals from that entire peninsula. Obviously the Flints (or their vassals) rule it.

Nope, that's not obvious because we have no information on that. Flint's Finger isn't on Cape Kraken.

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

But as for the Barrowlands, it is pretty obvious that it is the largest constituent part of the North.

That is not really important in relation to the strength of the Dustins. What makes them significant is that they rule the only town in the North. That makes them powerful. The Barrowlands as such seem to be pretty empty, nor do we know how large their territory actually is. We don't even know whether they rule all the lands down to the Neck or whether other lords hold that territory.

34 minutes ago, direpupy said:

There seat is named Blackpool, most likely because it is near a body of water by that name. One of the lakes above the Barrowlands and the Rills would be the most likely candidates for this, so i would personally place them there and not in they southeastern area of the North.

That isn't a bad idea, but it could also be a seat at the shores of the Long Lake. That would put them closer to the Dreadfort, and considering that Maester Henly is willing to serve Roose right now that might make more sense.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nope, that's not obvious because we have no information on that. Flint's Finger isn't on Cape Kraken.

Actually we don't know if it is or isn't, this is the same situation as the Barrowlands, is cape Kraken they entire peninsula next to the neck or only the farthest section of it. We do not know, if you look at some maps of the north the name only appears on the farthest part but on others it is they entire peninsula. If it is only the farthest part then Flint's Finger is not on Cape Kraken, but if it is they entire peninsula then it is on there.

As i said basically it is the same situation as the Barrowlands we simply do not know.

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That isn't a bad idea, but it could also be a seat at the shores of the Long Lake. That would put them closer to the Dreadfort, and considering that Maester Henly is willing to serve Roose right now that might make more sense.

If it was at the shores of Long Lake then why call it Blackpool? No if you are going to call a seat after a pool then it will be because it is next to a pool or lake by that name, so that would be one of the as yet unnamed lakes north of the Barrowlands and the Rills, or perhaps even a lake or pool that we do not yet know about.

As to Maester Henly, the Slates are with Roose at Winterfell and before that the where at Barrowton, so Roose ordering him around really is not all that strange, he is the maester of one of the Lords that is with Roose.

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6 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Actually we don't know if it is or isn't, this is the same situation as the Barrowlands, is cape Kraken they entire peninsula next to the neck or only the farthest section of it. We do not know, if you look at some maps of the north the name only appears on the farthest part but on others it is they entire peninsula. If it is only the farthest part then Flint's Finger is not on Cape Kraken, but if it is they entire peninsula then it is on there.

Whatever implications we have implies that Cape Kraken is - more or less - the place where the name is written, not the place farther away from it. We all agree, I assume, that the Barrowlands are definitely the parts where 'the Barrowlands' is written, right ;-)?

6 minutes ago, direpupy said:

If it was at the shores of Long Lake then why call it Blackpool? No if you are going to call a seat after a pool then it will be because it is next to a pool or lake by that name, so that would be one of the as yet unnamed lakes north of the Barrowlands and the Rills, or perhaps even a lake or pool that we do not yet know about.

Because the name of the castle might not, in fact, be named after a pool. After all, those large lakes are not likely to be called pools, either, no?

6 minutes ago, direpupy said:

As to Maester Henly, the Slates are with Roose at Winterfell and before that the where at Barrowton, so Roose ordering him around really is not all that strange, he is the maester of one of the Lords that is with Roose.

Roose is fighting a war and is surrounded by men he cannot trust. He should trust the maesters he allows to handle his ravens. If he can't, he is pretty much finished.

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FNR has the right of it with slates, I think. Not only most lords we know to have held the den are from that area, but we also never get a mention of Slates in Winterfell while even Tallharts are seen. We don't see the mountain clans either but they have on average 100 men per clan, at most.

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That doesn't help us determine what lands exactly are part of the Barrowlands, or what domains exactly are ruled by the Dustins.

Having a word written across a map doesn't exactly specify the borders of the named region, no? Nor does it help us to determine the feudal landscape of that region.

We have no idea, but if I had to guess I'd say that the Lannisters of Casterly Rock rule both Lannisport and Casterly Rock. They tell their cousins what to do, and they do it. And they seem to have the same hold over most of their other vassals, too.

For the Umbers we have considerable information.

Well, some of that land, to be sure. But do you know where the borders between the Umber/Karstark or Karstark/Bolton lands are? No, you don't.

And neither do we know whether some other lord not sworn to either of them owns land in-between them.

Nope, that's not obvious because we have no information on that. Flint's Finger isn't on Cape Kraken.

That is not really important in relation to the strength of the Dustins. What makes them significant is that they rule the only town in the North. That makes them powerful. The Barrowlands as such seem to be pretty empty, nor do we know how large their territory actually is. We don't even know whether they rule all the lands down to the Neck or whether other lords hold that territory.

That isn't a bad idea, but it could also be a seat at the shores of the Long Lake. That would put them closer to the Dreadfort, and considering that Maester Henly is willing to serve Roose right now that might make more sense.

You keep asking whether other lords rule some areas in the North, such as Cape Kraken or parts of the Barrowlands etc.

What are you suggesting with such questions? Two fundamental assumptions can guide us in this case, based on reasonable evidence:

1: Every person living between the Gift and Cape Kraken, and from the Sunset Sea to the Narrow/Shivering Sea, is rules by House Stark, either directly or through a Stark vassal House.

2: We do not have evidence of a single bit of territory in the North that is ruled directly from Winterfell, other than the lands surrounding Winterfell itself. Given the size and wildness of the North this makes sense, as the Starks cannot practically directly rule areas hundreds of miles away over wild terrain with no proper road infrastructure to facilitate local governance.

In fact, even where the Starks have conquered new territories they have historically dished it out to vassal lords in every known instance, in line with this model. Here we can cite the Starks giving of the Wolfs Den to countless Houses over the ages, the Starks defeating the rebel in the Karstark lands and immediately giving the land to the newly created House Karstark, the Starks winning Bear Island from the Ironborn and giving it to House Mormont, the Starks gradually carving off pieces of the Red Kings’ domain and giving it to the likes of the Hornwoods, etc.

So, while the South is a complex tapestry of much smaller, densely populated and interwoven little domains, the North, in all the evidence we have at hand, follows a simpler territorial approach to ruling their vast land.

In this light, it means that any region either has no people, or those people are sworn to some regional lord who is a vassal to House Stark. So, that means that if Cape Kraken has people, they are either sworn to House Flint of Flints finger, or to another regional vassal of House Stark who for some reason we have not heard even a hint of as yet. Because practically, the Starks cannot effectively rule them directly, all the way from Winterfell.

The same goes for some hypothecal area elsewhere in the North. Either they are sworn to the closest known regional lord, or they are sworn to another regional lord we  don’t know about. There is only one such regional lord whose territory remains undefined, and that is House Slate. 

So in all other cases areas like Cape Kraken etc will be ruled by the closest known House, such as House Flint.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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On 6/15/2018 at 9:59 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

Just like the Reeds rule all of the Neck, the Dustins from Barrowton almost certainly rule all of the Barrowlands.

But then we are told that at least one of the Ryswell castles are located in the Barrowlands

"Old ghosts, from before the Old King, even before Aegon the Dragon, seventy-nine deserters who went south to be outlaws. One was Lord Ryswell's youngest son, so when they reached the barrowlands they sought shelter at his castle, but Lord Ryswell took them captive and returned them to the Nightfort. - ASOS

So it can't be entirely correct that they rule all of the barrowlands

 

 

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