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Frey Kings

We're missing Flints and Dustins from the story

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

This sounds interesting, but I don't understand your point. Can you expand on the OP a bit?

Yes! This was hasty done without further content

 

In this book series, I persume The Flints are a big house that are spread out over the North. Although I doubt they are that closely related. The Dustins are as big as the Boltons, Karstarks & Manderlys... Yet we have no characters to appear in the Northern Storyline. No notable Dustins and Flints...  & Lady Dustin herself is a Ryswell. 

 

I remember reading a thread about why would Ned Stark let Lady Dustin keep ruling the barrowlands while there are other Dustins around... 

 

So the Flints and Dustins have been MIA

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4 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

Yes! This was hasty done without further content

 

In this book series, I persume The Flints are a big house that are spread out over the North. Although I doubt they are that closely related. The Dustins are as big as the Boltons, Karstarks & Manderlys... Yet we have no characters to appear in the Northern Storyline. No notable Dustins and Flints...  & Lady Dustin herself is a Ryswell. 

 

I remember reading a thread about why would Ned Stark let Lady Dustin keep ruling the barrowlands while there are other Dustins around... 

 

So the Flints and Dustins have been MIA

Robin Flint from Finger ones was among Robb's personal guards.

Torghen Flint appears during Sigorn and Alys's wedding.

Byam Flint is killed during mutiny at Craster's keep.

 

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5 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

Yes! This was hasty done without further content

 

In this book series, I persume The Flints are a big house that are spread out over the North. Although I doubt they are that closely related. The Dustins are as big as the Boltons, Karstarks & Manderlys... Yet we have no characters to appear in the Northern Storyline. No notable Dustins and Flints...  & Lady Dustin herself is a Ryswell. 

 

I remember reading a thread about why would Ned Stark let Lady Dustin keep ruling the barrowlands while there are other Dustins around... 

 

So the Flints and Dustins have been MIA

We know that George had not fleshed out much of his world and story at the time of the first book. You will note that the Dustins and Ryswells are barely mentioned in the first book, and are not among the prominent lords in Robb’s retinue. We even saw Ned command Helman Tallhart to send bowmen to Moat Cailin, despite the Dustins being the closest House to that border. 

Then in Dance and further in the World of Ice and Fire, we suddenly see the Dustins and Ryswells fleshed out as major power players in the North. With some retconned reasons why they were not a major presence in Robb’s army (Lady Dustin deliberately held men back, and the Ryswells were split by internal fighting amongst the brothers).

It is quite clear that George only created much of the Dustin and Ryswell backstory later in the series, elevating them from less prominent Houses to some of the most powerful lords in the North.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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19 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

There's 3 flints:  hill clans (not as strong), flint's finger and widow's watch. And the Barrow Kings, the first Kings. :/

I find Lady Barbary Dustin to be an acceptable Dustin. I assume she must have some heir, and based on other houses, I do not think it is uncommon for widows of the lord to rule until their death. I assume Anya Waynwood is a widow. Arwyn Oakheart is a widow and Arys says he has older brothers. House Oakheart and Waynwood are prominent houses in the Reach and the Vale respectively. There are probably more I am forgetting. 

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House Dustin is arguably one of the worst examples of GRRM retconning his earlier books. Barbrey would not realistically have been allowed to rule House Dustin as a childless widow unless there was absolutely no other member of House Dustin left to challenge her. But then how does such a prominent house dwindle down to just one branch in what should be a huge family tree (though that itself is an issue I have with the whole series). Plain and simple, George dropped the ball trying to justify Lady Dustin, and as interesting a figure as she is, her illogical existence is a head scratcher for me that I can’t think about too much while re reading Dance of Dragons.

Edited by Canon Claude

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22 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

House Dustin is arguably one of the worst examples of GRRM retconning his earlier books.

How exactly is it a retcon seeing as she is not introduced till ADWD? 

Her being in power follows the same protocol of Lady Hornwood who seemed to have been able to remain as the ruler even after her husband and son were killed. Lady Dustin being in control does not retcon any existing law, especially as GRRM has gone to great lengths to explain how fluid such laws are. 

22 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Barbrey would not realistically have been allowed to rule House Dustin as a childless widow unless there was absolutely no other member of House Dustin left to challenge her.

Or is it is possible that she and the her late husband were cousins, like Ned's parents, like Tywin and Joanna or the last ruling Whents, and the Ryswell's were the next in line. That is just one possible reason, there are likely others. Just because an answer is not immediately obvious to you does not mean there is not one.  However he only explained her situation in ADWD, so this is hardly a retcon. 

 

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How exactly is it a retcon seeing as she is not introduced till ADWD? 

Her being in power follows the same protocol of Lady Hornwood who seemed to have been able to remain as the ruler even after her husband and son were killed. Lady Dustin being in control does not retcon any existing law, especially as GRRM has gone to great lengths to explain how fluid such laws are. 

Or is it is possible that she and the her late husband were cousins, like Ned's parents, like Tywin and Joanna or the last ruling Whents, and the Ryswell's were the next in line. That is just one possible reason, there are likely others. Just because an answer is not immediately obvious to you does not mean there is not one.  However he only explained her situation in ADWD, so this is hardly a retcon. 

 

A bit of a softer statement perhaps is that he had to create plausible reasons for the lack of prominence such large Houses as the Dustins and Ryswells had earlier in the series, particularly in Robb’s campaign.

This while even poorer, weaker Houses much farther removed from the action, like the Mormonts and others, were very prominent in Robb’s army. 

So while he did a fairly decent job of it come Dance, it is still noteworthy nevertheless.

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3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

A bit of a softer statement perhaps is that he had to create plausible reasons for the lack of prominence such large Houses as the Dustins and Ryswells had earlier in the series, particularly in Robb’s campaign.

This while even poorer, weaker Houses much farther removed from the action, like the Mormonts and others, were very prominent in Robb’s army. 

So while he did a fairly decent job of it come Dance, it is still noteworthy nevertheless.

They were part of the Northern army; Robb raised 12k at Winterfell from the Glovers, Tallharts, Hornwoods, Mormonts, Boltons, Cerwyns, Umbers, Karstarks and Mountain Clans. On the way to Moat Cailin that army adds another 5k from the Flints, Lockes, Dustinss and Ryswells.

There is no actual retcon, the information is there. 

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28 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

They were part of the Northern army; Robb raised 12k at Winterfell from the Glovers, Tallharts, Hornwoods, Mormonts, Boltons, Cerwyns, Umbers, Karstarks and Mountain Clans. On the way to Moat Cailin that army adds another 5k from the Flints, Lockes, Dustinss and Ryswells.

There is no actual retcon, the information is there. 

Yeah, and not a single named Dustin or Ryswell lordling in any of Robb’s councils. And when Rodrik has to raise men to evict the Ironborn in the southwest of the kingdom, he gets men from as far afield as Karhold and Widow’s Watch, but not a single mention of Dustins or Ryswells.

Same when Eddard has to fortify Moat Cailin in a hurry. He tells Helman Tallhart and House Glover to raise bowmen and send them to Moat Cailin, but no mention of the much closer Dustins and Ryswells.

It is pretty noteworthy.

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@Frey Kings

I'd really dig meeting a few new members of the Flints, Dustins and Ryswells - something I expect to happen in the next book. Considering Winter has arrived, it would be fascinating to meet some more descendants of the Barrow Kings of old.

The top northern houses each have some gimmick attached to their lore, such as the Starks being the wolf/ice family, the Boltons being the skinners, Reeds as the swamp dwelling eco family - from the sounds of it, House Dustin might have been the death/zombie family, as crude as that may sound.

With the coming cold sure to bring a whole heap of death, it would be fascinating to hear a Dustin perspective on the situation.

The Flints - being an old mountain clan which has spread around the North - are sure to have some interesting lore. Same goes for the Ryswells, who have that Brandon Stark connection.

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7 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yeah, and not a single named Dustin or Ryswell lordling in any of Robb’s councils.

How many of Robb's War councils did we actually see? And did we see a member of every Riverland House represented in them when he was in the South? Do we see a member of every Reach or Stormland House represented in Renly's war councils?

We spend as much time in agot with the Lannister war councils as we do Robb's and despite House Serrett being mentioned as a principle House in AGOT appendix we have yet to be introduced to a single member. The same goes for another principle House mentioned in AGOT, Broom, no members actually seen in the war council or the entire war, one member later revealed in a later appendix as a Master of Arms. 

GRRM has gone over this, he can't mention by name the majority of people in a 20k army. It is simply not feasible. That does not mean it is a retcon especially as Mark Ryswell and lord Willam Dustin were introduced in AGOT. They are not retcons. 

Quote

 

And when Rodrik has to raise men to evict the Ironborn in the southwest of the kingdom, he gets men from as far afield as Karhold and Widow’s Watch, but not a single mention of Dustins or Ryswells.

Well we know why that is, they are not particularly fans of the Starks, and seem closer to House Bolton (one of Lord Ryswell's sons is even named after Roose)

But help was still requested: 

 and Maester Luwin had sent ravens before them, summoning levies from White Harbor and the barrowlands and even the deep places inside the wolfswood.

Quote

Same when Eddard has to fortify Moat Cailin in a hurry. He tells Helman Tallhart and House Glover to raise bowmen and send them to Moat Cailin, but no mention of the much closer Dustins and Ryswells.

The majority of the Northern Houses are closer to Moat Cailin than House Glover. Manderly, Cerwyn and Hornwood all make better choices if the decision was just about distance, it was not. Ned wanted this to be a secret, he did not want others to be aware

"Oh, now there's a treasure," Littlefinger said, exiting.
When the door had closed behind him, Ned turned back to his wife. "Once you are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. 
 
Him trusting his two Masterly Houses makes sense in this regard. 

 

Quote

It is pretty noteworthy.

No, it really is not. 

Edited by Bernie Mac

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

How many of Robb's War councils did we actually see? And did we see a member of every Riverland House represented in them when he was in the South? Do we see a member of every Reach or Stormland House represented in Renly's war councils?

We spend as much time in agot with the Lannister war councils as we do Robb's and despite House Serrett being mentioned as a principle House in AGOT appendix we have yet to be introduced to a single member. The same goes for another principle House mentioned in AGOT, Broom, no members actually seen in the war council or the entire war, one member later revealed in a later appendix as a Master of Arms. 

GRRM has gone over this, he can't mention by name the majority of people in a 20k army. It is simply not feasible. That does not mean it is a retcon especially as Mark Ryswell and lord Willam Dustin were introduced in AGOT. They are not retcons. 

Well we know why that is, they are not particularly fans of the Starks, and seem closer to House Bolton (one of Lord Ryswell's sons is even named after Roose)

But help was still requested: 

 and Maester Luwin had sent ravens before them, summoning levies from White Harbor and the barrowlands and even the deep places inside the wolfswood.

The majority of the Northern Houses are closer to Moat Cailin than House Glover. Manderly, Cerwyn and Hornwood all make better choices if the decision was just about distance, it was not. Ned wanted this to be a secret, he did not want others to be aware

"Oh, now there's a treasure," Littlefinger said, exiting.
When the door had closed behind him, Ned turned back to his wife. "Once you are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. 
 
Him trusting his two Masterly Houses makes sense in this regard. 

 

No, it really is not. 

:agree:

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On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 9:25 PM, Frey Kings said:

Yes! This was hasty done without further content

 

In this book series, I persume The Flints are a big house that are spread out over the North. Although I doubt they are that closely related. The Dustins are as big as the Boltons, Karstarks & Manderlys... Yet we have no characters to appear in the Northern Storyline. No notable Dustins and Flints...  & Lady Dustin herself is a Ryswell. 

 

I remember reading a thread about why would Ned Stark let Lady Dustin keep ruling the barrowlands while there are other Dustins around... 

 

So the Flints and Dustins have been MIA

My impression of the discrepancy between Lady Dustin and Lady Hornwood is that LH had nobody left to defend her and the Boltons had designs on her lands. Lady Dustin, meanwhile, is not in jeopardy of losing Barrowton and has a fair number of Ryswells to come to her aid should anyone try.

But my favorite northern house is the Liddles: Big Liddle, Middle Liddle and Little Liddle.

 

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