U.S. Politics: Would You Like A Warranty With Your Magic Beans?

[Seli]

2 hours ago, Vin said:

How do we not have equality under the law in the US ? Give me an example of a discriminatory law . ..

Bail.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/14/america-bail-system-law-rich-poor

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/10/new-york-city-to-end-cash-bail-for-non-felony-cases-in-win-for-reform-advocates

https://harvardlawreview.org/2018/02/bail-reform-and-risk-assessment-the-cautionary-tale-of-federal-sentencing/

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Somebody really wants that Nobel, even used capital letters!* 

 

Great potential for Trump branded hotels and golf courses!  Yeah baby, economic development for dummies dictators. 

 

* (which of his aids wrote this one?)

I really think Trump sees the Presidency of the US as, primarily, a money making opportunity for him.  He's talking real estate with world leaders.  He can't change his frame of reference to allow him to act as a head of state not a "head of business".  I think it's part of the reason he continues to come off like a mafia don.

[Vin]

12 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Somebody really wants that Nobel, even used capital letters!* 

 

Great potential for Trump branded hotels and golf courses!  Yeah baby, economic development for dummies dictators. 

 

* (which of his aids wrote this one?)

He reminds me of gilderoy lockhart.

4 minutes ago, Selibration Srbija! said:

Bail.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/14/america-bail-system-law-rich-poor

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/10/new-york-city-to-end-cash-bail-for-non-felony-cases-in-win-for-reform-advocates

https://harvardlawreview.org/2018/02/bail-reform-and-risk-assessment-the-cautionary-tale-of-federal-sentencing/

 

Close but no cigar , both have to post bail . It's not like the rich don't have to while the poor do . However I do personally agree that the bail system is not good and should change (I think John Oliver did an episode on it once that was really interesting ) 

[DanteGabriel]

2 hours ago, Vin said:

Other than Richard Spencer and his goons I can't really think of a real supremacist who's out there (feel free to add names with justification and sources)

Unless you subscribe to the internet trolls are nazis, a portion of starwars fans are nazis , republicans are nazis ...etc.

Asshole or person I disagree with =/= Nazi 

Why are so many people just eager to fight yet can't stand the idea of dialogue and compromise ?

 

1 hour ago, butterbumps! said:

When you're saying "not racist," are you treating euphemisms like "culturally anxious" as a separate category not under the umbrella of racism?   This is a genuine question.   I'm admittedly in a very blue area, but know a fair number of Trump voters and continued supporters.  Even those who are "good people"-- people who are incredibly decent and kind when it comes to those in their "in-groups," including, for example, neighbors who aren't white-- are super racist once you scratch the surface a little in my experience, though they'd get indignant at being told their beliefs are racist.   Others I know are more garden variety Republicans who just voted for the R, but even they are pretty "culturally anxious" once you start asking pointed questions.  In my experience, even in the most charitable cases, they are wholly indifferent to people who don't belong to one of their in groups.

I mean, it's not just racism, but also misogyny, homophobia, nativism-- kind of like all these people are convinced that these "others" are hostile and taking resources, attention and specialness away from them or something.  They feel like victims, and it seems to strengthen their sense of in group sensibility, as well as sense of who's "out."  But, again, I think when you scratch the surface of that, it's bigotry.   I could be wrong.   What's your take on what motivates them other than racism (or bigotry in general)?

@Vin, I'd be curious to see if you have any response to butterbumps' post. Because you seem to think of racism or white supremacy as being limited to cross-burning Klansmen. I also notice you shifted terminology from racism, which is a very broad term, to white supremacy, which is a little narrower, to actual Nazism, which is very specific.

In reality I believe everyone has racist impulses. Everyone has an instinctive reaction to sort people into "us" vs "them" and often that is based on skin color. Everyone has these impulses, but not everyone lets those affect their actions. Hopefully, we would be well educated and sensitive enough to recognize these emotions and reactions, interrogate them, and deal with them. But a lot of people don't, and don't even realize what they're doing.

I think racism is on a spectrum. Most white people aren't Klansmen and would react with horror at the suggestion. But maybe they think that an unarmed black man deserved to be beaten or shot for resisting arrest. Maybe they cross the street when they see a black person heading their way (Obama famously used this as an example of his own white grandmother's racism). Maybe they'll follow a black person in a store. Maybe they'll ignore a black person's complaints about the criminal justice system. That's racism too. Maybe they think the election of Barack Obama means racism isn't a real problem any more. And the invisibility of the baked-in racism of the criminal justice system, of retailers, of hiring managers, of banks redlining black people out of mortgages in white neighborhoods or charging them higher rates, all add up to the pervasive white supremacy we all swim in. You don't have to be Richard Spencer to be part of the problem. You could, for example, be the Attorney General of the United States. Or the President.

So are 63 million Trump voters white supremacists? There aren't 63 million Klansmen. But there are at least 63 million who saw Trump's open racism and xenophobia and decided that wasn't enough to stop them from supporting him. They decided that lower taxes or Hillary Clinton's emails were worth treating millions of their fellow Americans as second class citizens, as presumed rapists and drug dealers. Racism is America's original sin, and it seems like most white Americans are too coddled and comfortable to deal with it honestly. Certainly we'll never really deal with the issue if everyone thinks the only racism emanates from literal Nazis and everyone else is doing fine.

[lessthanluke]

4 hours ago, Vin said:

Do you seriously believe that Donald Trump got elected mainly because of supremacists ? 63 million people voted for him , how many of them are supremacists ?

I know all 63 million are pretty okay with having a racist as President. So there's that.

 

ETA : Or what DanteGabriel said above.

[Fragile Bird]

My God, a thread taken over by trolls sure is boring!   

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 hours ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

Presidents constantly overturning each other's unilateral decisions is one of the only ways I imagine Congress doing its fucking job once in a while.

Negative, my friend. The legislature is broken, and international affairs aren't going to fix it.

[SweetPea]

28 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

I know all 63 million are pretty okay with having a racist as President. So there's that.

That doesn't make them racists.

[butterbumps!]

8 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

That doesn't make them racists.

In what way?  If one supports racism (by voting for and continuing to approve of racists and racist policy), why is it unfair to characterize that person as a racist?  Is the term "racism supporter" more apropos, in your view?

[Vin]

12 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

 

@Vin, I'd be curious to see if you have any response to butterbumps' post. Because you seem to think of racism or white supremacy as being limited to cross-burning Klansmen. I also notice you shifted terminology from racism, which is a very broad term, to white supremacy, which is a little narrower, to actual Nazism, which is very specific.

In reality I believe everyone has racist impulses. Everyone has an instinctive reaction to sort people into "us" vs "them" and often that is based on skin color. Everyone has these impulses, but not everyone lets those affect their actions. Hopefully, we would be well educated and sensitive enough to recognize these emotions and reactions, interrogate them, and deal with them. But a lot of people don't, and don't even realize what they're doing.

I think racism is on a spectrum. Most white people aren't Klansmen and would react with horror at the suggestion. But maybe they think that an unarmed black man deserved to be beaten or shot for resisting arrest. Maybe they cross the street when they see a black person heading their way (Obama famously used this as an example of his own white grandmother's racism). Maybe they'll follow a black person in a store. Maybe they'll ignore a black person's complaints about the criminal justice system. That's racism too. Maybe they think the election of Barack Obama means racism isn't a real problem any more. And the invisibility of the baked-in racism of the criminal justice system, of retailers, of hiring managers, of banks redlining black people out of mortgages in white neighborhoods or charging them higher rates, all add up to the pervasive white supremacy we all swim in. You don't have to be Richard Spencer to be part of the problem. You could, for example, be the Attorney General of the United States. Or the President.

So are 63 million Trump voters white supremacists? There aren't 63 million Klansmen. But there are at least 63 million who saw Trump's open racism and xenophobia and decided that wasn't enough to stop them from supporting him. They decided that lower taxes or Hillary Clinton's emails were worth treating millions of their fellow Americans as second class citizens, as presumed rapists and drug dealers. Racism is America's original sin, and it seems like most white Americans are too coddled and comfortable to deal with it honestly. Certainly we'll never really deal with the issue if everyone thinks the only racism emanates from literal Nazis and everyone else is doing fine.

Well I thought about replying to said user's post but while I felt the content was aimed at me it did seem a bit baity ? I dunno , maybe I'm assuming the worst of them for which I apologize .

Alright, let's try to unpack this and reach common ground .

I did narrow down the terminology because it felt like hyperbole was getting the better of the conversation and I think one should try to be precise even if one fails (now I don't claim this was entirely conscious , it kinda just happened with the flow of debate )

I think the concept of inherent group preference does hold some merit and there's actually been some research that suggests it's biological (you see someone who looks like you and that makes you feel safer  is the idea ) and BTW this is an excellent argument against people who believe only white people can be racist . I agree that one can try to be alert and recognize ones own bias but I don't buy that cultural sensitivity trainings and courses are helpful ,I've seen some of those manuals and their methodology is just nonsensical and I don't agree with them being forced on people by universities and employers ( but I guess an employer has the right to dictate company procedure so that's kinda fine), it's kinda demeaning . I think this bias fire wall needs to be self built by a person's own efforts to be effective .

 

Sorry but I really don't believe in original sins and collective guilt . I can't accept that .

To say that a large portion of 63 million people suffer from some degree of prejudice is permissible but declaring our nation a white supremacy is not  . I'd be the first to say that I don't agree with the list of priorities and hierarchy of values that most republicans have but I also acknowledge that there are common grounds and cooperation to be had , the US is not just the coasts , we need each other . 

So while I agree that we have differences with the republicans and we'll never see eye to eye on certain points ,I wholeheartedly denounce and disagree with this sensationalism and demonization of them . This polarization that so many seem to revel in is abhorrent to me and I believe we should seek common ground and unity based on compromise and sincere and respectful dialogue not try to shame people and shout them down with chants of "fascist/Nazi" . This method is simply ineffective and will never win hearts and minds . A good rule of thumb that I found is to remember that most people are reasonable with simple motivations (get a job or have better relationships or whatever) so if you're patient and don't insult them you'll reach common ground and possibly even sway them to your side . 

 

I think this rant long enough , sorry about that lol so to sum it up , I want my country whole not just half of it .

Also I've really enjoyed this discussion , you've raised many interesting points that I'm sure we can discuss further . This is constructive dialogue and I thank you for it 

[Jace, Extat]

21 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Negative, my friend. The legislature is broken, and international affairs aren't going to fix it.

Duh. Ain't just the legislature, the whole damn country's busted. I just said it was one of the ways I could 'imagine' congress doing work. Didn't say it was realistic.

Bam! Outflanked!

[SweetPea]

1 minute ago, butterbumps! said:

In what way?  If one supports racism (by voting for and continuing to approve of racists and racist policy), why is it unfair to characterize that person as a racist?  Is the term "racism supporter" more apropos, in your view?

No. It's unfair to characterize them as racists because an election is about far more than social issues like racism. You need to take a ton of things into consideration before deciding who to vote for. It's very strange to suggest that someone must agree with every view of the president he is voting for.

[Vin]

47 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

I know all 63 million are pretty okay with having a racist as President. So there's that.

 

ETA : Or what DanteGabriel said above.

That's not grounds to declare the country a supremacist cesspool which is basically what the user I replied to claimed . 

Call them racists if you want , I just don't think that's gonna win us the house or the Senate .

 

And just to be cheeky , you guys have a political inquisition so call it even ? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 hours ago, SweetPea said:

It's quite amazing that a white supremacist country has had a black president for 8 years.

A black president who conservatives said wasn’t born in this country, so therefore he couldn’t be president, meanwhile, they supported Ted Cruz’s bid for the presidency, even though he was actually born in Canada, and he was not born abroad for fear of safety, which was George Romney’s loophole.

Also, did you miss all the public mock lynchings of Obama? Cause there were a ton of them.

And as Luke said, the reaction to Obama was to elect an openly racist man, who made his political bones on, circling back to the beginning, birtherism. And the strongest indicator of support for Trump was white racial resentment. It cannot be clearer what took place in 2016.

5 hours ago, Relic said:

In fairness to Americans they have been conditioned to be this way for around 50 years now. Entertainment, comfort, material wealth...these are the altars we worship upon. 

It’s why, despite its many, many flaws, They Live is one of the most important films of our time.

[Week]

1 minute ago, SweetPea said:

No. It's unfair to characterize them as racists because an election is about far more than social issues like racism. You need to take a ton of things into consideration before deciding who to vote for. It's very strange to suggest that someone must agree with every view of the president he is voting for.

It's an endorsement. Whether you agree 100% or not is irrelevant -- the warts are deemed acceptable. "Lock her up", "Grab 'em by the pussy", "Build that wall", etc. were all regarded as an acceptable cost, or feature, to Trump voters.

[mormont]

21 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

That doesn't make them racists.

Here's the thing: being a racist isn't a binary condition. 

Prejudice has degrees to it, like most personality traits. The only reason to insist on setting boundaries like this is because you deny that something someone has done is racist in any degree, and the most effective way to do that is to pretend that there's a clear dividing line that one the one hand has flaming crosses and on the other has perfectly blameless people.

[butterbumps!]

1 minute ago, SweetPea said:

No. It's unfair to characterize them as racists because an election is about far more than social issues like racism. You need to take a ton of things into consideration before deciding who to vote for. It's very strange to suggest that someone must agree with every view of the president he is voting for.

No one is suggesting a voter must agree with every view of the person he's voting for.   The issue is that bigotry, and the promise of bigoted policies, was inextricable from Trump's candidacy.  By voting for him, no matter what your alleged primary motivation, you have decided that whatever "non racist" motivation drives you is worth the price of electing a racist and having racist policies.  Even if you voted for "lower taxes," you still pulled the lever in support of bigotry, because the bigotry is not only inextricable from the Trump package, but the major feature.  I think this is really something people need to come to terms with.

 

[Vin]

3 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

No. It's unfair to characterize them as racists because an election is about far more than social issues like racism. You need to take a ton of things into consideration before deciding who to vote for. It's very strange to suggest that someone must agree with every view of the president he is voting for.

This is relevant and I kinda agree  but it's not like it's a small deal .

 

 

[SweetPea]

1 minute ago, butterbumps! said:

No one is suggesting a voter must agree with every view of the person he's voting for.   The issue is that bigotry, and the promise of bigoted policies, was inextricable from Trump's candidacy.  By voting for him, no matter what your alleged primary motivation, you have decided that whatever "non racist" motivation drives you is worth the price of electing a racist and having racist policies.  Even if you voted for "lower taxes," you still pulled the lever in support of bigotry, because the bigotry is not only inextricable from the Trump package, but the major feature.  I think this is really something people need to come to terms with.

 

4 minutes ago, Vetrani Weekić said:

It's an endorsement. Whether you agree 100% or not is irrelevant -- the warts are deemed acceptable. "Lock her up", "Grab 'em by the pussy", "Build that wall", etc. were all regarded as an acceptable cost, or feature, to Trump voters.

Yes. That's the point. Many people voted for Trump despite the racism, not because of it. To say that all those 63 million people support racism is nonsensical.

4 minutes ago, La Albearceleste said:

Here's the thing: being a racist isn't a binary condition. 

Prejudice has degrees to it, like most personality traits. The only reason to insist on setting boundaries like this is because you deny that something someone has done is racist in any degree, and the most effective way to do that is to pretend that there's a clear dividing line that one the one hand has flaming crosses and on the other has perfectly blameless people.

Completely missed my point. That's not what I'm suggesting at all.

 

[Week]

9 minutes ago, Vin said:

[..] there's actually been some research that suggests it's biological (you see someone who looks like you and that makes you feel safer  is the idea ) and BTW this is an excellent argument against people who believe only white people can be racist .

Racism and prejudice are two different terms. Racism implies a power dynamic wherein - yes - racism is caused by white people. Reverse racism is not a term with any actually meaning despite protestations to the contrary.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/good-men-project/why-its-so-hard-to-talk-to-white-people-about-racism_b_7183710.html

Quote

Racial Arrogance: Most whites have a very limited understanding of racism because we have not been trained to think in complex ways about it and because it benefits white dominance not to do so. Yet, we have no compunction about debating the knowledge of people who have thought complexly about race. Whites generally feel free to dismiss these informed perspectives rather than have the humility to acknowledge that they are unfamiliar, reflect on them further, or seek more information.

9 minutes ago, Vin said:

Sorry but I really don't believe in original sins and collective guilt . I can't accept that .

https://www.citylab.com/solutions/2017/05/the-100-year-old-penalty-for-being-black/526731/

There are very real consequences that millions of our fellow citizens still suffer -- your lack of sympathy and understanding is not something to be proud of. It's either ignorance or arrogance and you ought to unpack that.

9 minutes ago, Vin said:

To say that a large portion of 63 million people suffer from some degree of prejudice is permissible but declaring our nation a white supremacy is not 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m6yf0wjn2tp6ij3/SURJ Talking White Supremacy Flyer.pdf?dl=0

https://collectiveliberation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/What_Is_White_Supremacy_Martinez.pdf

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/8/17/1690658/-The-sweet-lull-of-white-supremacy-or-why-white-people-hate-to-be-called-white

Our nation is built upon white supremacy.