Bastards in Essos

[Moiraine Sedai]

Very basic question because I'm on vacation and away from the books.   How are bastards treated in:

1) The free cities.  Can the bastards of the rich inherit?  

2) Under the religion of the red god.  Can bastards become priest/priestesses?

3) Slaver's Bay.  The masters father a lot of children with their slaves.  What happens to these children?  Born free or slave?

 

 

 

 

[Ylath's Snout]

4 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Under the religion of the red god.  Can bastards become priest/priestesses?

We do know that slaves can become clergy of Rh'llor so I'd guess yes.

 

[The Sunland Lord]

6 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Very basic question because I'm on vacation and away from the books.   How are bastards treated in:

1) The free cities.  Can the bastards of the rich inherit?  

2) Under the religion of the red god.  Can bastards become priest/priestesses?

3) Slaver's Bay.  The masters father a lot of children with their slaves.  What happens to these children?  Born free or slave?

 

 

 

 

1) Probably depends on the rich people.

2) I think yes.

3) Depends on the masters, most likely.

[Texas Hold Em]

Bastards can inherit purely personal property like gold.  What the law prevents them from inheriting are those properties that belongs to the realm.  They cannot inherit land.  The land belongs to the ruler in Westeros and can be passed only according to the laws of the ruler.  The Free Cities are not feudal and they all do not have the same government.  It depends on which city.  Somebody who has the world book can chime in but it seems to me that they each have their own laws.  

Melonie was a slave before she became the Melissandre that we all know.  R'hllor doesn't discriminate.  

The baby of a slave is a slave.  The tattoo on the face mark them for life.  They might earn freedom later on but the mark stays.  Those born into slavery are slaves.   They're at the mercy of their father master because they're property.  I know it has to suck but slavery isn't nice.  

[Kandrax]

8 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Very basic question because I'm on vacation and away from the books.   How are bastards treated in:

1) The free cities.  Can the bastards of the rich inherit?  

2) Under the religion of the red god.  Can bastards become priest/priestesses?

3) Slaver's Bay.  The masters father a lot of children with their slaves.  What happens to these children?  Born free or slave?

 

 

 

 

Personally, i don't think that Essos view bastards in same way as Westeros.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

10 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Very basic question because I'm on vacation and away from the books.   How are bastards treated in:

1) The free cities.  Can the bastards of the rich inherit?  

2) Under the religion of the red god.  Can bastards become priest/priestesses?

3) Slaver's Bay.  The masters father a lot of children with their slaves.  What happens to these children?  Born free or slave?

 

 

 

 

1. Sure the father can support his bastard.  Walder Frey does.  The bastard can't inherit the title and the lands but all else is available.  
2. ?  
3. The children will be slaves until their master gives them freedom.  Slaves are lower socially than bastards.

[Jaak]

6 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Bastards can inherit purely personal property like gold.  What the law prevents them from inheriting are those properties that belongs to the realm.  They cannot inherit land.  The land belongs to the ruler in Westeros and can be passed only according to the laws of the ruler. 

We are not actually told Westeros´ rulers even make that claim.

Westeros has tradition of property staying in same houses for millennia, through hundreds of generations. Rulers can seize lands for rebellion and give them to favourites, but this is so rare that after millennia, most land has not changed hands that way.

What prevents ruler himself from bequeathing his throne to his bastard is a strong tradition of legitimate inheritance.

In Essos?

Volantis did not prevent a freed slave from inheriting her husband´s palace inside the Black Wall. They forbade her to keep it, but did allow her to sell it and keep the sale price.

If a Volantene noble wanted to leave his or her property to a child born of a free (and noble and Volantene!) mother, just out of wedlock, would Volantene law object?

Nymeria Sand is a bastard born of a Volantene noblewoman. Is she an "outlander"? Or is she a Volantene citizen by birth, entitled to walk in the gates of Black Walls without needing a specific invitation of anyone, even her mother?

If Nymeria owns property in Volantis, can she vote? (Does she vote Tiger or Elephant)?

Does Nymeria have "direct Valyrian descent", and is she legally eligible to be elected as Triarch?

6 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

 The baby of a slave is a slave.  The tattoo on the face mark them for life.  They might earn freedom later on but the mark stays.  Those born into slavery are slaves.   They're at the mercy of their father master because they're property.

They are not tattooed inside the womb.

At which age are slave babies usually tattooed?

If a master decides to manumit a baby and not tattoo it... how long does the master have to decide it? Does delaying to tattoo a baby´s face to make up a decision whether to free it or keep it as a slave operate as freeing it by default?

[The Lord of the Crossing]

People do not normally dwell on bastards.  They happen and they become a statistic.  One of the many fatherless children in every city.  The bay is different because the bastards are the property of the slave owner.  The masters of slaves can do what they want with the baby.  If say a slave woman gets pregnant by a free man.  The master might see this as a good thing.  You know like a farmer and his cows making more cows.  To which they can sell for a profit.  

[Moiraine Sedai]

15 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Personally, i don't think that Essos view bastards in same way as Westeros.

Bastards are considered second class in most areas.

[Moiraine Sedai]

19 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

We do know that slaves can become clergy of Rh'llor so I'd guess yes.

 

Good answer.  Mel was a slave.

[Moiraine Sedai]

17 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Bastards can inherit purely personal property like gold.  What the law prevents them from inheriting are those properties that belongs to the realm.  They cannot inherit land.  The land belongs to the ruler in Westeros and can be passed only according to the laws of the ruler.  The Free Cities are not feudal and they all do not have the same government.  It depends on which city.  Somebody who has the world book can chime in but it seems to me that they each have their own laws.  

Melonie was a slave before she became the Melissandre that we all know.  R'hllor doesn't discriminate.  

The baby of a slave is a slave.  The tattoo on the face mark them for life.  They might earn freedom later on but the mark stays.  Those born into slavery are slaves.   They're at the mercy of their father master because they're property.  I know it has to suck but slavery isn't nice.  

Babies born into slavery are slaves.  A free man can still be a bastard.

[Jaak]

6 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

People do not normally dwell on bastards.  They happen and they become a statistic.  One of the many fatherless children in every city. 

Not obviously.

The attitude to marriage varies. So the likely reasons why the parents did not get married also vary.

As does the attitude to babies. We are told that the old religion of Sisters permitted infanticide, and Seven forbid it.

In a society where full born infanticide is legal, bastards are among the obvious candidates.

 

[Kandrax]

5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Bastards are considered second class in most areas.

Are you sure? I can't remember that any bastard is mentioned during Danny's storyline. Because of that i believe that concept of bastardom doesn't exist in Essos. In fact i believe that Faith invented it.

[Darth Sidious]

25 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Are you sure? I can't remember that any bastard is mentioned during Danny's storyline. Because of that i believe that concept of bastardom doesn't exist in Essos. In fact i believe that Faith invented it.

Hi K,

The social disapproval and the general negative attitude towards bastard evolved because they are unwanted children in most cases.  A byproduct of infidelity in some cases and premarital sex as well.  Laws are in place to make sure the stability of the family and the inheritance rights are protected.  It assures the wife that her children will inherit her husband's rights and privileges.  

Humans being what they are, there is sure to be a social stigma associated with bastards everywhere.  The wives will not look kindly on bastards because they are the living symbols of infidelity.  I don't think any wife and mother would like it if her husband's accident is allowed to compete with her children for inheritance.

On 6/13/2018 at 11:05 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Very basic question because I'm on vacation and away from the books.   How are bastards treated in:

1) The free cities.  Can the bastards of the rich inherit?  

2) Under the religion of the red god.  Can bastards become priest/priestesses?

3) Slaver's Bay.  The masters father a lot of children with their slaves.  What happens to these children?  Born free or slave?

 

 

 

 

I don't remember a passage where we are specifically told how the law treats bastards in the Free Cities.  But I suspect they also have laws to protect the rights of the children of the marriage.  I concur with what Ylath's said about bastards and Rhllor.  I don't think they discriminate.  They comfort the poor and the unfortunate.  Many slaves flock to Rhllor.  That is why Benerro supports Daenerys Targaryen, the Breaker of Chains.  

No doubt many slave owners get their women pregnant.  But bastardry is the least of the problems such a child faces.  Baby has to first deal with being a property because worrying about being a bastard.  The father and owner of the child is not likely to claim the child.  The masters consider themselves above other men and they pride themselves for being the masters of men.  Theoretically though, sure, a father who is also the owner can free the child and make it legitimate.  

[bent branch]

Just want to remind everyone that all people who serve R'hllor are slaves. Temple prostitute, Temple guard or priest, they are all slaves of R'hllor. This includes Moqorro, Melisandre, Benerro and Thoros. R'hllorism is a slave religion for and by slaves. There is also a very practical reason that all the servants of R'hllor are slaves and that is because anyone can be taken as a slave (as Vigaro's widow explained to Tyrion). However, there are laws to protect owners property (slaves). Therefore, by being slaves to R'hllor, the red priests can move freely through Essos without fear of being kidnapped and sold into slavery.

[Jaak]

6 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

Hi K,

The social disapproval and the general negative attitude towards bastard evolved because they are unwanted children in most cases. 

Not in all societies...

6 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

A byproduct of infidelity in some cases and premarital sex as well.  Laws are in place to make sure the stability of the family and the inheritance rights are protected.  It assures the wife that her children will inherit her husband's rights and privileges.  

Humans being what they are, there is sure to be a social stigma associated with bastards everywhere.  The wives will not look kindly on bastards because they are the living symbols of infidelity.  I don't think any wife and mother would like it if her husband's accident is allowed to compete with her children for inheritance.

Wives won´t. More importantly, neither will the fathers and brethren of wives.

But there will be husbands who want to promote their bastards.

And who succeeds depends on society.

Medieval Europe from 11th century had normative monogamy, lifelong with a strict ban on divorce, and bastards did not have inheritance rights.

Compare with their contemporaries right across border in Islamic world, that had polygamy and easy divorce.

The Norse before the imposition of European marriage laws in 13th century or so had clearly distinguished single principal wife, but bastards had broad inheritance rights.

So, there is nothing implausible about Essos having a very different attitude to bastards.

6 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

No doubt many slave owners get their women pregnant.  But bastardry is the least of the problems such a child faces.  Baby has to first deal with being a property because worrying about being a bastard.  The father and owner of the child is not likely to claim the child.  The masters consider themselves above other men and they pride themselves for being the masters of men.  Theoretically though, sure, a father who is also the owner can free the child and make it legitimate.  

It´s more than theoretical. In societies where freeing slaves is at all common, the children of the master are one of the first groups to consider.

Is there any special legal discrimination against bastard freedmen over and above discrimination against bastards born of freeborn mothers?

Vogorro´s Whore had no children to mention, either by Vogorro or afterwards. If she had borne children to Vogorro, would the Old Blood of Volantis have declared Vogorro´s children freedmen as well, and forced them out of Black Walls, or would they have accepted that they were born of mother who was by then free, and allowed Vogorro´s Whore to stay inside Black Walls as a household member of her children?

[Frey Kings]

The faith only allows one wife. But in Essos, They have multiple wives & concubines. So I'm assuming bastards aren't that common. 
 

Slavery's bay is another topic

[Jaak]

2 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

The faith only allows one wife. But in Essos, They have multiple wives & concubines. So I'm assuming bastards aren't that common.

We don't get details of what "concubine" means.

Does child of a "concubine" inherit equally with child of a "wife", not at all, or something but not equally?

Lynesse Hightower had no children in her five years of marriage to Jorah. If she did/does bear children to Tregar Ormollen, how would Lynesse's children be treated, compared to Tregar's children by his wife?

[Moiraine Sedai]

21 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Are you sure? I can't remember that any bastard is mentioned during Danny's storyline. Because of that i believe that concept of bastardom doesn't exist in Essos. In fact i believe that Faith invented it.

The northern bastards are considered so by the same people who worship the old God's.   The very first wife at the beginning of time put pressure on her husband to distinguish between their children and his children with a random woman.  

[Moiraine Sedai]

13 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

The faith only allows one wife. But in Essos, They have multiple wives & concubines. So I'm assuming bastards aren't that common. 
 

Slavery's bay is another topic

That is something to think about.  If the laws and the church allowed for multiple wives to be legal then only the children outside of marriage are bastards.  But even among the wives, there is pecking order.  The First wife has the highest rank, I would think.  Any group has to have a rank order to prevent chaos.