The legend of Storm's End foreshadows a romance between Aegon and Arianne, and a war between Aegon and Euron

[BlackLightning]

On ‎6‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 9:41 AM, Lord Varys said:

I don't like the signs, but even I must admit that there is very strong foreshadowing (real foreshadowing, going back to the House of the Undying) implying that Dany might marry Euron Greyjoy. It would have to be after Cersei's death (who I think is definitely going to marry Euron) and before the Dany-Jon thing, but it is a possibility that the rogue kraken ends up as playing the role of Daemon to Dany's Rhaenyra.

I mean, we have those three visions which seem to be Dany's consort. First Drogo, then the whole Greyjoy vision thing with the dude in the ship, etc., and then the obvious Jon vision. The ship guy wasn't Hizdahr, it isn't going to be another Dothraki, so who is it going to be?

If she is in trouble when she lands she'll take any help she can get. And as of yet Dany has no issue whatsoever with Euron Greyjoy. Whereas she might have a lot of issues with the impostor and his ilk by the time she comes.

Still, if that's nonsense I'd think that Euron on his own becomes a major threat to Dany on her way to Westeros, at a point when the Lad Without Ships might sit on the Iron Throne but have as much strength at sea as Aegon II.

While are you not wrong to think that Daenerys will end up marrying - and, let's be honest, f8@king - a Greyjoy (YUCK!!!), I think you are wrong to think that will be Euron.

Euron is not the Greyjoy she will marry. Victarion is.

Her marriage to Victarion will likely be very short-lived (he'll be gruesomely murdered by Euron in an epic sea battle similar to how the Sand Snakes died in the show) but it will be the key to coming back to Westeros.

As a matter of fact, I think don't think Daenerys' return to Westeros will have anything to do with Aegon. The global threat posed by the Others and/or Euron Greyjoy is more than enough to do the trick (plus, her second husband will be Victarion who has a ugly history with Euron). Hell, depending on how serious Daenerys gets about her "Mhysa, Breaker of Chains, Stallion that Mounts the World" spiel, she might just want to go to Westeros to give people food for their bellies and fire for their homes. Or even to free them from feudalism.

Now, I'm not saying there won't be a Second Dance. There will. When Arianne learns of Quentyn's death, she's not going to want anything to do with Daenerys. She already has serious doubts about Daenerys' moral integrity behind Viserys' death. I think that the Targaryen administration in King's Landing will assume the worst about Daenerys (mainly Jon Connington) and so they will be the ones to first shots.

Daenerys will eventually get pissed off. And that'll be the point where she'll be trying to eat Aegon alive.

 

But there's no way she's going to marry Euron. Daenerys is going to have to completely do a heel-face-turn change as a character in order for that to happen. And if that happens, then Daenerys will become a villain.

So no. It'll be:

• Aegon and Arianne
• Daenerys and Victarion (and, later on, Daenerys and Jon)
• Euron and Cersei

Yep. I'm calling it: Cersei and Euron will marry and join forces both in the books and the show.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

13 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Euron is not the Greyjoy she will marry. Victarion is.

I'm not so sure, Euron actually appears to be Daenerys type, on the surface at least. He's handsome, has swagger and can be very charismatic with his silver tongue. He's also a leader of men and has a keen mind for warfare, as shown with his plan to burn down Lannisport's navy. He's almost like a Daario 2.0, he is very  much the "fire" that Barristan says Dany and most young women are attracted too. He is also the actual ruler of the Iron Islands where as Victarion is under his command. 

Then you have Victarion. He's tall with a strong build but is never mentioned as being comely. While he's a good warrior and able commander he is also "dumb as a stump." I don't see him ever outfoxing Euron or Dany.  Unlike Euron, Victarion is not able to appear as something he is not, which I think will be his downfall. I think it's most likely that Dany will be able to bring him to her cause with only the promise of marriage and kingship once she gets to Westeros. Then when she meets Euron she'll willingly leave Victarion for Euron , much like Victarion's  last wife did.

[BlackLightning]

14 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I'm not so sure, Euron actually appears to be Daenerys type, on the surface at least. He's handsome, has swagger and can be very charismatic with his silver tongue. He's also a leader of men and has a keen mind for warfare, as shown with his plan to burn down Lannisport's navy. He's almost like a Daario 2.0, he is very  much the "fire" that Barristan says Dany and most young women are attracted too. He is also the actual ruler of the Iron Islands where as Victarion is under his command. 

Then you have Victarion. He's tall with a strong build but is never mentioned as being comely. While he's a good warrior and able commander he is also "dumb as a stump." I don't see him ever outfoxing Euron or Dany.  Unlike Euron, Victarion is not able to appear as something he is not, which I think will be his downfall. I think it's most likely that Dany will be able to bring him to her cause with only the promise of marriage and kingship once she gets to Westeros. Then when she meets Euron she'll willingly leave Victarion for Euron , much like Victarion's  last wife did.

But you're forgetting one very important details. Well, actually, you're missing several but let's just focus on this one.

Euron is a slaver.

Daenerys is not like Sansa: looks and charisma have never fooled her and she definitely won't be fooled by them by the time she meets Euron in Dream of Spring. Once she catches wind of Euron's slaves and how he treats them, she's not going to want anything to do with him if it doesn't involve fire and blood. And that's not even taking into consideration, the fact that Euron is a grade A megalomaniac and an aspiring dark wizard. Daenerys has had some very unpleasant experience with megalomaniacs

There is fire and there is poison. Euron is poison. Which is precisely why I believe Cersei will end up choosing Euron because she'll be stupid and desperate (mostly desperate) enough to do so. At least, she'll get some very, very good sex out of it.

Victarion's last wife didn't willingly leave him for Euron...for just one night. If she did, why would she be so quick and ready confess it to Victarion? Most people who cheat on their spouses aren't willing to (wo)man up and be honest.

But yeah, Victarion's inability to outfox Euron is what is going to get him killed. Does Victarion really think he can hoodwink? He's not stealing Euron's bride; Euron is playing a game (of thrones) with him.

I, along with many others, believe that Euron is a skinchanger (maybe even a former apprentice of the Three-Eyed Raven) and that he forced Victarion's wife to approach him for sex.

[Clegane'sPup]

23 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

(he'll be gruesomely murdered by Euron in an epic sea battle similar to how the Sand Snakes died in the show)

I would agree book Euron is a manic.

Vic is the one who traveled to Slavers Bay.  Vic is the one who thinks he is gonna claim the Dragon Queen. Vic & his dragon horn and the 30+ ships and Vic's red priest.

To me Euron is story filler. A distraction. What can he actually do? Sure Euron scares his underlings. Euron is extremely violent.

It is my opinion that the Iron Born can not mount an effect inland attack on Westeros. The Iron Born can harry the shore and the islands and cause a lot of carnage.

Book Euron isn't going to get to Cersei unless he defeats the Redwyne fleet, sails past Dragonstone, and sails up Blackwater Bay to the port.

Cersei I am thinking still has that chain Tyrion had built sooooooooo that may be a deterrent. or saving grace.

If Euron tries to take SE he has to have his men row dingy's ashore and have his men travel across land. What is SE known for --- even on good days Shipwrecker Bay is dangerous. Damn I hope I got that SWB right.

Some more martin ambiguity --- kackens have been rumored to be pulling ships under the sea. I hope a sea serpent kracken grabs that ship sailing the red eyed flag and drags that ship and Euron to the underwater depths.

Euron is insignificant filler like the crazies Tywin hired to rape and pillage.

 

[Bowen Marsh]

I am not making the connection.  Sorry.  There is very little there other than some names sounding somewhat the same.  Euron saying he's the storm just meant he brings destruction.  He doesn't care one whit who Aegon is nor would he care who he marries.  Why would he bother to attack SE for that purpose.   Euron doesn't need Storm's End and it is bad strategic position that he could never hold.  Euron is sea power.  He doesn't have the men to hold SE.  He's spread too thin.

[Bowen Marsh]

On 6/22/2018 at 9:36 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

But you're forgetting one very important details. Well, actually, you're missing several but let's just focus on this one.

Euron is a slaver.

Daenerys is not like Sansa: looks and charisma have never fooled her and she definitely won't be fooled by them by the time she meets Euron in Dream of Spring. Once she catches wind of Euron's slaves and how he treats them, she's not going to want anything to do with him if it doesn't involve fire and blood. And that's not even taking into consideration, the fact that Euron is a grade A megalomaniac and an aspiring dark wizard. Daenerys has had some very unpleasant experience with megalomaniacs

There is fire and there is poison. Euron is poison. Which is precisely why I believe Cersei will end up choosing Euron because she'll be stupid and desperate (mostly desperate) enough to do so. At least, she'll get some very, very good sex out of it.

Victarion's last wife didn't willingly leave him for Euron...for just one night. If she did, why would she be so quick and ready confess it to Victarion? Most people who cheat on their spouses aren't willing to (wo)man up and be honest.

But yeah, Victarion's inability to outfox Euron is what is going to get him killed. Does Victarion really think he can hoodwink? He's not stealing Euron's bride; Euron is playing a game (of thrones) with him.

I, along with many others, believe that Euron is a skinchanger (maybe even a former apprentice of the Three-Eyed Raven) and that he forced Victarion's wife to approach him for sex.

I mostly agree with your opinions.  Something you wrote caught my focused attention.  So if Euron was an apprentice of BR might we assume that he also has the green sight?  BR never tried to contact Aemon to warn him of the white walkers.  It is possible he's hoodwinking Bran and supports the white walkers.  

 

[BlackLightning]

23 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I would agree book Euron is a maniac.

Vic is the one who traveled to Slavers Bay.  Vic is the one who thinks he is gonna claim the Dragon Queen. Vic & his dragon horn and the 30+ ships and Vic's red priest.

Why did Vic travel to Slaver's Bay to begin with? Who provided Victarion with the ships that he has?

Euron.

23 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

To me Euron is story filler. A distraction. What can he actually do? Sure Euron scares his underlings. Euron is extremely violent.

It is my opinion that the Iron Born can not mount an effect inland attack on Westeros. The Iron Born can harry the shore and the islands and cause a lot of carnage.

That's not an opinion. That's fact. The Ironborn cannot mount an effective inland attack on Westeros.

Other than harrying the coasts and the islands, the best they can do is raid and reave their way up the giant ship-navigable rivers. Like the Greenblood, the Mander, the Trident, the White Knife and - to a lesser extent - the Blackwater.

23 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Book Euron isn't going to get to Cersei unless he defeats the Redwyne fleet, sails past Dragonstone, and sails up Blackwater Bay to the port.

Cersei I am thinking still has that chain Tyrion had built sooooooooo that may be a deterrent. or saving grace.

If Euron tries to take SE he has to have his men row dingy's ashore and have his men travel across land. What is SE known for --- even on good days Shipwrecker Bay is dangerous. Damn I hope I got that SWB right.

Some more martin ambiguity --- kackens have been rumored to be pulling ships under the sea. I hope a sea serpent kracken grabs that ship sailing the red eyed flag and drags that ship and Euron to the underwater depths.

Euron is insignificant filler like the crazies Tywin hired to rape and pillage.

 

Euron and Cersei aren't going to hook up until Dream. There's just too much going on for them to join forces in Winds - much less meet. By that point, Aegon and Arianne will be in King's Landing and Cersei - if she's still alive at this point - will have already ran for the hills. Pun intended.

Cersei will likely be locked herself away in Casterly Rock, likely ruling the Westerlands or - at least - the Lannister lands from there. If she manages to try and take one of her two remaining children with her (one of them will be already dead before she makes a break for it), they'll die on the road or immediately after they get to the Rock, In books, the Lannisters are still very, very, very rich. There is plenty of gold and jewels and silver that they haven't even mined yet. And since the Iron Throne is indebted to House Lannister, all Cersei has to do once she is no longer in immediate danger is call in her debts and BOOM!

Trade war.

So, at that point, Euron won't have to get past the Redwynes and Dragonstone to take Cersei in King's Landing. She'll be in Casterly Rock. And Casterly Rock is a coastal fortress. He probably won't even have to invade because Book Cersei will likely do what TV Cersei did: invite him.

Euron is definitely not going to take Storm's End. He's not your average Ironborn pirate-king; there's nothing for him in Storm's End. The reason why he's attacking Oldtown is because there's a buttload of magical and scientific knowledge to be found and used there.

So, I strongly disagree.

Euron is endgame. And he is likely to become a very powerful sorcerer. Powerful enough to give Daenerys pause.

1 hour ago, Bowen Marsh said:

I mostly agree with your opinions.  Something you wrote caught my focused attention.  So if Euron was an apprentice of BR might we assume that he also has the green sight?  BR never tried to contact Aemon to warn him of the white walkers.  It is possible he's hoodwinking Bran and supports the white walkers.  

It's possible. But then again, we aren't entirely sure what the white walkers are, why they exist, where exactly are they trying to go and what are they trying to accomplish.

[aryagonnakill#2]

3 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Why did Vic travel to Slaver's Bay to begin with? Who provided Victarion with the ships that he has?

Euron.

That's not an opinion. That's fact. The Ironborn cannot mount an effective inland attack on Westeros.

Other than harrying the coasts and the islands, the best they can do is raid and reave their way up the giant ship-navigable rivers. Like the Greenblood, the Mander, the Trident, the White Knife and - to a lesser extent - the Blackwater.

Euron and Cersei aren't going to hook up until Dream. There's just too much going on for them to join forces in Winds - much less meet. By that point, Aegon and Arianne will be in King's Landing and Cersei - if she's still alive at this point - will have already ran for the hills. Pun intended.

Cersei will likely be locked herself away in Casterly Rock, likely ruling the Westerlands or - at least - the Lannister lands from there. If she manages to try and take one of her two remaining children with her (one of them will be already dead before she makes a break for it), they'll die on the road or immediately after they get to the Rock, In books, the Lannisters are still very, very, very rich. There is plenty of gold and jewels and silver that they haven't even mined yet. And since the Iron Throne is indebted to House Lannister, all Cersei has to do once she is no longer in immediate danger is call in her debts and BOOM!

Trade war.

So, at that point, Euron won't have to get past the Redwynes and Dragonstone to take Cersei in King's Landing. She'll be in Casterly Rock. And Casterly Rock is a coastal fortress. He probably won't even have to invade because Book Cersei will likely do what TV Cersei did: invite him.

Euron is definitely not going to take Storm's End. He's not your average Ironborn pirate-king; there's nothing for him in Storm's End. The reason why he's attacking Oldtown is because there's a buttload of magical and scientific knowledge to be found and used there.

So, I strongly disagree.

Euron is endgame. And he is likely to become a very powerful sorcerer. Powerful enough to give Daenerys pause.

It's possible. But then again, we aren't entirely sure what the white walkers are, why they exist, where exactly are they trying to go and what are they trying to accomplish.

Debt is not the same thing is trade.  Nor can Cersei call in debts to people who are unwilling to pay.  If/when the Lannisters loose this war, they loose the 3 million dragons the crown owes them.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

On 6/22/2018 at 6:36 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

But you're forgetting one very important details. Well, actually, you're missing several but let's just focus on this one.

Euron is a slaver.

 Victarion is basically a slaver too. As are all other Iron Born that take thralls and salt wives. Just because they claim it isn't because they "paid the iron price" for them and stole them instead of buying them with gold really makes little difference. 

On 6/22/2018 at 6:36 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Daenerys is not like Sansa: looks and charisma have never fooled her and she definitely won't be fooled by them by the time she meets Euron in Dream of Spring. Once she catches wind of Euron's slaves and how he treats them, she's not going to want anything to do with him if it doesn't involve fire and blood. And that's not even taking into consideration, the fact that Euron is a grade A megalomaniac and an aspiring dark wizard. Daenerys has had some very unpleasant experience with megalomaniacs

She did fall for the sellsword Daario even though she knows he's not a good person by any means. She knows he has no conscience and is a murderer. She even thinks how she'd give up her throne for him but thinks he wouldn't want her anymore if she wasn't Queen. So she knows Daario very much covets power. Not as much as Euron, but still lust for power all the same.

She will see how Victarion treats his slaves(thralls) the same way or worse long before she meets Euron. The way he sacrifices them. Euron might be cunning enough to hide it or free them before he meets Daenerys, Victarion on the other hand isn't smart enough for that. He'd probably just grunt and say it's "the iron price" if she asked about thralls.

On 6/22/2018 at 6:36 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

There is fire and there is poison. Euron is poison. Which is precisely why I believe Cersei will end up choosing Euron because she'll be stupid and desperate (mostly desperate) enough to do so. At least, she'll get some very, very good sex out of it.

Again if Euron is poison then Victarion is as well, just a much less attractive and stupid one. I mean his hand is literally poisoned, leaking and smoking blood all because of Moqorro and his dark magic.  Under Moqorro's influence Victarion is becoming just as power hungry as Euron. That becomes apparent in his winds chapter.

Speaking of poison though, Barristan believes she's already chosen poison once in loving Daario.

Her love for Daario is poison. A slower poison than the locusts, but in the end as deadly-Barristan

On 6/22/2018 at 6:36 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Victarion's last wife didn't willingly leave him for Euron...for just one night. If she did, why would she be so quick and ready confess it to Victarion? Most people who cheat on their spouses aren't willing to (wo)man up and be honest.

Euron claims she came to him willingly. So I guess we can only speculate for now. Also do we know the circumstance of how the situation became known? Did his salt wife tell Victarion that Euron raped her? I honestly don't remember if that was ever covered.  Also do we know it was only one night? Victarion claims she had gotten pregnant with Euron's child. If she had been sleeping with Victarion and Euron grabbed her and slept with her for one night then how would Victarion know it was Euron's child and not possible his own?

I would guess a salt wife's relationship with her husband must be very different then usual marriages as most of the time they are taken against their will. She may have hated Victarion for making her his salt wife in the first place. Maybe she tried to get back at Victarion buy sleeping with Euron or she thought if she slept with Euron she'd become his  salt wife instead.  Perhaps Euron promised her that's exactly what he'd do, like he did with Faila Flower. Speaking of her, she is the only other female relationship we are privy to with Euron and she seemed very willing and happy to become Euron's lover.

On 6/22/2018 at 6:36 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

I, along with many others, believe that Euron is a skinchanger (maybe even a former apprentice of the Three-Eyed Raven) and that he forced Victarion's wife to approach him for sex.

I guess anything is possible. As of now though I believe it's more likely Victarion's salt wife just happen to choose the handsome silver tongued Euron over the brute Victarion. I'm sure Euron did his part in seducing her as well though. Just seems like a thing he'd do to his brothers. 

[Frey Kings]

King Aurane is the only ideal match. He'll show how a true Valyrian rules. In style.

[Frey Kings]

.

[BlackLightning]

21 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Debt is not the same thing is trade.  Nor can Cersei call in debts to people who are unwilling to pay.  If/when the Lannisters loose this war, they loose the 3 million dragons the crown owes them.

Tell that to the Iron Bank.

Or better yet, go tell that to the United States government (who uses their near-apocalyptic levels of debt as of both collateral and leverage in trade) or any real-life banking and crediting institution.

Trust and believe, these people are going to get their money. One way or another.

And just to clarify, I am not saying that Cersei will be successful. I am just predicting that she will do it and that it will likely give the Iron Throne pause. And because she won't be yoked to the Iron Throne anymore, there will be little to no reason for the Iron Bank to come after her. She'll just be a fellow creditor.

21 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 Victarion is basically a slaver too. As are all other Iron Born that take thralls and salt wives. Just because they claim it isn't because they "paid the iron price" for them and stole them instead of buying them with gold really makes little difference. 

She did fall for the sellsword Daario even though she knows he's not a good person by any means. She knows he has no conscience and is a murderer. She even thinks how she'd give up her throne for him but thinks he wouldn't want her anymore if she wasn't Queen. So she knows Daario very much covets power. Not as much as Euron, but still lust for power all the same.

She will see how Victarion treats his slaves(thralls) the same way or worse long before she meets Euron. The way he sacrifices them. Euron might be cunning enough to hide it or free them before he meets Daenerys, Victarion on the other hand isn't smart enough for that. He'd probably just grunt and say it's "the iron price" if she asked about thralls.

Again if Euron is poison then Victarion is as well, just a much less attractive and stupid one. I mean his hand is literally poisoned, leaking and smoking blood all because of Moqorro and his dark magic.  Under Moqorro's influence Victarion is becoming just as power hungry as Euron. That becomes apparent in his winds chapter.

Speaking of poison though, Barristan believes she's already chosen poison once in loving Daario.

Her love for Daario is poison. A slower poison than the locusts, but in the end as deadly-Barristan

Euron claims she came to him willingly. So I guess we can only speculate for now. Also do we know the circumstance of how the situation became known? Did his salt wife tell Victarion that Euron raped her? I honestly don't remember if that was ever covered.  Also do we know it was only one night? Victarion claims she had gotten pregnant with Euron's child. If she had been sleeping with Victarion and Euron grabbed her and slept with her for one night then how would Victarion know it was Euron's child and not possible his own?

I would guess a salt wife's relationship with her husband must be very different then usual marriages as most of the time they are taken against their will. She may have hated Victarion for making her his salt wife in the first place. Maybe she tried to get back at Victarion buy sleeping with Euron or she thought if she slept with Euron she'd become his  salt wife instead.  Perhaps Euron promised her that's exactly what he'd do, like he did with Faila Flower. Speaking of her, she is the only other female relationship we are privy to with Euron and she seemed very willing and happy to become Euron's lover.

I guess anything is possible. As of now though I believe it's more likely Victarion's salt wife just happen to choose the handsome silver tongued Euron over the brute Victarion. I'm sure Euron did his part in seducing her as well though. Just seems like a thing he'd do to his brothers. 

Well, you have a good point about the Ironborn's slavery-by-another-name.

But then again, you can say the same thing about Daenerys and the Dothraki. Daenerys' influence changed the behaviors and attitudes of her tiny khalasar. She'll likely have to do that in Vaes Dothrak to the Dosh Khaleen, all of the khals and the other khalasars.

Who's to say that she can't and won't do it to Victarion. As a matter of fact, Victarion is so much of a simple-minded people-pleaser, he will probably genuinely make the change the moment she asks -- if not before.

Euron wants to enslave the whole world, become a God and use Daenerys as a baby factory, a sex toy (or worse, a step above a chamberpot where he can receive himself when he wills), a trophy, a crown and a sword.

Victarion has a gaping hole in his heart and he thinks that a wife will bring him peace - which is actually quite sad when you think about. By 

As for Daario? I agree; Euron (or who Euron would have portrayed himself as) was definitely Daenerys' type. But that was Daenerys in Storm and Dance. But by the end of Dance, Daenerys is like "I'm done playing these little girl games. Playtime is over." By the time Daenerys comes back to Meereen in Winds, she'll be a very, very different person. Her core values and attitudes won't change but Daenerys in Winds will probably be more Dothraki like, more "kill it with fire." Victarion will be super turned on by all of it; Daenerys won't really care too much about Victarion.

Which makes sense.

Because remember the riddle about the men she would marry.

• One to bed - meaning that the whole purpose of Daenerys' marriage to Drogo was to have sex with him, to keep his bed warm and to bear his children; in other words, she was supposed to be a concubine (i.e. salt wife, bedslave) and a babymaking factory
• One to dread - meaning that the whole purpose of Daenerys' marriage to Victarion is for her to become more militarily powerful and frighteningly. By the end of Dance, her enemies don't fear her and her dragons neither respect or obey her. The Dothraki respect strength and merit and only the magical/spiritual gives them pause. In order to win them, Daenerys needs to be able to command respect, terrify those who would oppose and destroy them with fire and blood. And she needs ships. After all, think about it:
  • Dragons plant no trees = the Greyjoy words of ''we do not sow''
• One to love - meaning that the whole purpose of this marriage (everyone knows by this point that Jon Snow is the third and final one) will be love. By this point, Daenerys will go overboard a bit with Victarion and she will have learned the hard way. She'll have been wizened and softened up to the point where she is - for the first time in her life - in a position to be loved by someone and to love someone in return.

I mean, Daenerys could marry Euron. But that's unlikely as Victarion is going to get to her first and he (along with Archmaester Marwyn, Moqorro and maybe even the Dosh Khaleen) will turn her against Euron. Euron, one way or another, is going to show Daenerys - and the rest of the world - exactly the kind of person he is: be it his reaction to Victarion's treachery (Euron is too smart to see that coming), what he ends up doing to the Redwyne fleet or to Oldtown, the ramifications of the blood magic spell he's implementing, and/or something else And that will only serve as an even greater turn-off to Daenerys.

By this point, Daenerys will want absolutely nothing to do with blood magic sorcerery. Who could blame her? She was backstabbed and publicly humiliated and played for a fool by a witch and that same witch ended up killing her husband and unborn child. Oh, and she also happens to believe that the witch cursed her with a barren womb.

I'm not entirely sure where Aegon, Arianne and Storm´s End fit in with this. But for the record, I don't think Arianne and Aegon are going to fall in love with each other. One of them might love in love with the other but I doubt both of them will love each other. And I doubt that their love story (if there´s one at all) will take place at Storm's End alone.

And I'm not sure why Euron would abandon his schemes in Oldtown to go to the other side of the continent and harass a Dornish beauty and her too-good-to-be-true Targaryen benefactor.

[aryagonnakill#2]

54 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Tell that to the Iron Bank.

Or better yet, go tell that to the United States government (who uses their near-apocalyptic levels of debt as of both collateral and leverage in trade) or any real-life banking and crediting institution.

Trust and believe, these people are going to get their money. One way or another.

And just to clarify, I am not saying that Cersei will be successful. I am just predicting that she will do it and that it will likely give the Iron Throne pause. And because she won't be yoked to the Iron Throne anymore, there will be little to no reason for the Iron Bank to come after her. She'll just be a fellow creditor.

Well, you have a good point about the Ironborn's slavery-by-another-name.

But then again, you can say the same thing about Daenerys and the Dothraki. Daenerys' influence changed the behaviors and attitudes of her tiny khalasar. She'll likely have to do that in Vaes Dothrak to the Dosh Khaleen, all of the khals and the other khalasars.

Who's to say that she can't and won't do it to Victarion. As a matter of fact, Victarion is so much of a simple-minded people-pleaser, he will probably genuinely make the change the moment she asks -- if not before.

Euron wants to enslave the whole world, become a God and use Daenerys as a baby factory, a sex toy (or worse, a step above a chamberpot where he can receive himself when he wills), a trophy, a crown and a sword.

Victarion has a gaping hole in his heart and he thinks that a wife will bring him peace - which is actually quite sad when you think about. By 

As for Daario? I agree; Euron (or who Euron would have portrayed himself as) was definitely Daenerys' type. But that was Daenerys in Storm and Dance. But by the end of Dance, Daenerys is like "I'm done playing these little girl games. Playtime is over." By the time Daenerys comes back to Meereen in Winds, she'll be a very, very different person. Her core values and attitudes won't change but Daenerys in Winds will probably be more Dothraki like, more "kill it with fire." Victarion will be super turned on by all of it; Daenerys won't really care too much about Victarion.

Which makes sense.

Because remember the riddle about the men she would marry.

• One to bed - meaning that the whole purpose of Daenerys' marriage to Drogo was to have sex with him, to keep his bed warm and to bear his children; in other words, she was supposed to be a concubine (i.e. salt wife, bedslave) and a babymaking factory
• One to dread - meaning that the whole purpose of Daenerys' marriage to Victarion is for her to become more militarily powerful and frighteningly. By the end of Dance, her enemies don't fear her and her dragons neither respect or obey her. The Dothraki respect strength and merit and only the magical/spiritual gives them pause. In order to win them, Daenerys needs to be able to command respect, terrify those who would oppose and destroy them with fire and blood. And she needs ships. After all, think about it:
  • Dragons plant no trees = the Greyjoy words of ''we do not sow''
• One to love - meaning that the whole purpose of this marriage (everyone knows by this point that Jon Snow is the third and final one) will be love. By this point, Daenerys will go overboard a bit with Victarion and she will have learned the hard way. She'll have been wizened and softened up to the point where she is - for the first time in her life - in a position to be loved by someone and to love someone in return.

I mean, Daenerys could marry Euron. But that's unlikely as Victarion is going to get to her first and he (along with Archmaester Marwyn, Moqorro and maybe even the Dosh Khaleen) will turn her against Euron. Euron, one way or another, is going to show Daenerys - and the rest of the world - exactly the kind of person he is: be it his reaction to Victarion's treachery (Euron is too smart to see that coming), what he ends up doing to the Redwyne fleet or to Oldtown, the ramifications of the blood magic spell he's implementing, and/or something else And that will only serve as an even greater turn-off to Daenerys.

By this point, Daenerys will want absolutely nothing to do with blood magic sorcerery. Who could blame her? She was backstabbed and publicly humiliated and played for a fool by a witch and that same witch ended up killing her husband and unborn child. Oh, and she also happens to believe that the witch cursed her with a barren womb.

I'm not entirely sure where Aegon, Arianne and Storm´s End fit in with this. But for the record, I don't think Arianne and Aegon are going to fall in love with each other. One of them might love in love with the other but I doubt both of them will love each other. And I doubt that their love story (if there´s one at all) will take place at Storm's End alone.

And I'm not sure why Euron would abandon his schemes in Oldtown to go to the other side of the continent and harass a Dornish beauty and her too-good-to-be-true Targaryen benefactor.

Westeros cannot be compared to modern economies, there are no such things are credit scores, and again debt really has no relation to trade in either regard.  The Iron bank gets its due because they finance people who will come take down a person who doesn't pay/ hire an assassin.  If Cersei runs back to Casterly Rock all she can do is stop providing more loans for the Crown, but if the Crown nullifies the debt due to treason, then their debt payments become significantly smaller and they can restart payments to the Iron bank and anyone else they owe.  

Robert accumulated his debt in two ways, throwing parties/ feast/ tournaments all the time, giving out enormous prizes at those tournaments, and he had a massive navy that just sat around not doing anything.  With no navy, and more responsible leadership not giving away 100,000 galleon prizes every year they won't need new debt.

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

.

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Who's to say that she can't and won't do it to Victarion. As a matter of fact, Victarion is so much of a simple-minded people-pleaser, he will probably genuinely make the change the moment she asks -- if not before.

I'm not sure I'd call Victarion, someone who beats a pregnant women to death with his bare hands, "a people pleaser."  We don't know how he'll react to Daenerys but he doesn't exactly treat women well. Most importantly though, Victarion is trying to  take Dany's dragon's for himself. If he's willing to do that I doubt Dany will trust him. We know Victarion is most definitely not releasing any slaves(thralls) before the battle in Meereen. Spoilers from his chapter in Winds.

Spoiler

He's making three thralls blow the dragon horn once each to steal Dany's dragons. Even though he believes all three will die doing it. So it doesn't look like he's on his way to treating his slaves any better before the battle of Meereen.

 

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Euron wants to enslave the whole world, become a God and use Daenerys as a baby factory, a sex toy (or worse, a step above a chamberpot where he can receive himself when he wills), a trophy, a crown and a sword.

And Victarion doesn't?  Spoilers from Vic's Winds of Winter chapter 

Spoiler

Victarion just doesn't want to fight for Dany and marry her, he wants to use the dragon horn to steal her dragons and takeover the world.  That's just as bad as Euron.

Euron was a fool to give me this, it is a precious thing, and powerful. With this I'll win the Seastone chair and then the Iron Throne. With this I'll win the world.-Victarion from Winds of Winter Chapter

If those aren't the words of a megalomaniac I don't know what are.

I'm not saying Euron is any better but he can at least appear to be different and better than Victarion by being charismatic, that's how he won the Kingsmoot. Both want to use Dany and her dragon's for the same purpose and neither seem to be concerned about winning her love or trust. They only want "the dragon queen"

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Victarion has a gaping hole in his heart and he thinks that a wife will bring him peace - which is actually quite sad when you think about.

I doubt Victarion would be treating Dany any better then his salt wife. He even says he is going to "steal" Dany from Euron the way Euron stole his wife. I don't see Victarion becoming a gentle husband. I also doubt Daenerys would think him to be one either. So I don't feel sorry for Victarion because it broke his heart to beat his salt wife to death because she "horned him." A women he most likely took against her will.  Before he started bedding the dusky woman he planned on slitting her throat and  then sacrifice her to the Drowned God. Again I'm not saying Euron is any better but he's a handsome bad boy that is capable of attracting women to him that actually want him.

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

As for Daario? I agree; Euron (or who Euron would have portrayed himself as) was definitely Daenerys' type. But that was Daenerys in Storm and Dance. But by the end of Dance, Daenerys is like "I'm done playing these little girl games. Playtime is over." By the time Daenerys comes back to Meereen in Winds, she'll be a very, very different person. Her core values and attitudes won't change but Daenerys in Winds will probably be more Dothraki like, more "kill it with fire." Victarion will be super turned on by all of it; Daenerys won't really care too much about Victarion.

Suppose that is all true. Why would that make Dany want Victarion instead of Daario or anyone else? A unattractive, slave sacrificing brute, with a magic enslaving dragon horn and a red witch as his adviser. 

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

One to dread

This could easily be Euron as well. Him and Victarion are interchangeable in many ways. Except Euron is less transparent about what he is on the inside.  

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

By this point, Daenerys will want absolutely nothing to do with blood magic sorcerery.

I agree, which is why I believe she won't want to marry Victarion, who is using blood magic with Moqorro. She may kill him. Perhaps that what's Euron's plan was all along.

I seriously doubt Euron doesn't know Victarion is planning on betraying him and is going for Dany himself. So I guess we have to agree to disagree about the rest.

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I don't think Arianne and Aegon are going to fall in love with each other.

I agree with this. I believe (f)Aegon will fall in love with Elia Sand who is accompanying Arianne to meet (f)Aegon. I believe symbolically Elia Sand represents both Elia Martell and Lyanna Stark the same way (f)Aegon symbolically represents Rhaegar. Elia is obviously named after Rhaegar's wife Elia and shares her Dornish looks. While Elia Sand's personality seems to have a lot of common with Lyanna Stark's.

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Westeros cannot be compared to modern economies, there are no such things are credit scores, and again debt really has no relation to trade in either regard.  The Iron bank gets its due because they finance people who will come take down a person who doesn't pay/ hire an assassin.  If Cersei runs back to Casterly Rock all she can do is stop providing more loans for the Crown, but if the Crown nullifies the debt due to treason, then their debt payments become significantly smaller and they can restart payments to the Iron bank and anyone else they owe.  

Good points. I stand corrected.

But we all know what kind of person Cersei is: she's not going to just let that go.

And, in all honesty, she has a valid (shallow but still very valid) case: she is the de facto head of House Lannister and the previous head of House Lannister lent the money to the previous kings who sat the Iron Throne in good faith which has then been eroded piece-by-piece by civil war with the Starks, the Tullys, the Baratheons, the Tyrells, the terrorism of the Greyjoys and the violent return of the maybe-fake-maybe-legit Targaryens. Like I said it's shallow because almost everything that has happened up to that point in King's Landing is her fault. But it's valid.

Particularly if she makes nice with overseas bankers and especially if she just ends up fleeing the city before Aegon and co. can get there rather than trying to blow the city up on her way out.

Moreover, Cersei will have enough money and financial legitimacy to hire sellswords and assassins (she'll likely bankrupt herself but hey...) to enforce her will on the Red Keep.

So, then what's the point of GRRM going out of his way to introduce the Iron Bank and the fact that the nation is ~6 million and counting "dollars" in debt - a subplot that goes all the way back to the first half of Game and became a big part of the main King's Landing plot in Feast - if Aegon and crew are just going to handwave 1/2 of it away.

Unless, of course, he's running a long con with the audience where the heroes of Westeros miraculously manage to save Westeros from the Others and Euron and Cersei and Littlefinger and maybe even Daenerys...only for said heroes to be destroyed, incarcerated or enslaved by the Iron Bank.

In that case ... I'm cool with that.

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Robert accumulated his debt in two ways, throwing parties/feasts/tournaments all the time, giving out enormous prizes at those tournaments, and he had a massive navy that just sat around not doing anything.  With no navy, and more responsible leadership not giving away 100,000 galleon prizes every year they won't need new debt.

Yes, they will. They will absolutely need new debt.

Because:

1. Euron Greyjoy and most of the Ironborn are still raping the Reach. The Reach happens to be both the realm's fruitbasket - even in times of winter - and the second wealthiest, if not the #1, region in realm.
2. Daenerys Targaryen is coming with three flying nukes with teeth (air force), 8,000+ castrated Spartans (infantry), 500,000+ Dothraki (cavalry), God-knows-how-many former slaves/followers of the red god (army + auxiliary support), the remaining Ironborn and their sleek longships forming the backbone of her navy with Aurane Waters maybe even providing brand new, state-of-the-art warships and her own wealth and food supply
3. The Riverlands, Westeros' backup breadbasket in bad times and a rival of the Reach in good ones, has been so thoroughly devastated to the point where IF (note: that's a big if) they had any crops and arable lands that weren't destroyed or ruined by the Wot5K, there wouldn't be enough people to work the fields in time. So any food that they could have salvaged would've gone bad before they made it to the dinner table
4. King's Landing is completely unable to support itself and the rest of the Crownlands would starve to death if they even tried to feed King's Landing
5. Westeros' third breadbasket, the Vale, has been shut down by both Littlefinger and winter itself. Although Littlefinger is hoarding food, it's not for charity, it's for political leverage. And I doubt he will be able to jump on the Aegon bandwagon via Sansa because his Sansa-related plots are too far along to be cancelled or postponed. Plus, he's too far to be of any assistance.

So yeah.

The fact that the Iron Throne is broke even with the support of the realm's two wealthiest families means that Aegon and friends are going to be absolutely busted.

How will they fund a war with both Euron and Daenerys? Even if they can count on Euron and Daenerys being too busy going at each other to bother with them, that whole southern half of the continent will bleed in the crossfire. And it's unlikely that Euron or Daenerys (or even Cersei for that matter) will completely ignore them or the lands they claim to belong to them long enough for them to get their s#1! together.

[BlackLightning]

26 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I'm not sure I'd call Victarion, someone who beats a pregnant women to death with his bare hands, "a people pleaser."  We don't know how he'll react to Daenerys but he doesn't exactly treat women well. Most importantly though, Victarion is trying to  take Dany's dragon's for himself. If he's willing to do that I doubt Dany will trust him. We know Victarion is most definitely not releasing any slaves(thralls) before the battle in Meereen.

And Victarion doesn't?

If those aren't the words of a megalomaniac I don't know what are.

I'm not saying Euron is any better but he can at least appear to be different and better than Victarion by being charismatic, that's how he won the Kingsmoot. Both want to use Dany and her dragon's for the same purpose and neither seem to be concerned about winning her love or trust. They only want "the dragon queen"

I doubt Victarion would be treating Dany any better then his salt wife. He even says he is going to "steal" Dany from Euron the way Euron stole his wife. I don't see Victarion becoming a gentle husband. I also doubt Daenerys would think him to be one either. So I don't feel sorry for Victarion because it broke his heart to beat his salt wife to death because she "horned him." A women he most likely took against her will.  Before he started bedding the dusky woman he planned on slitting her throat and  then sacrifice her to the Drowned God. Again I'm not saying Euron is any better but he's a handsome bad boy that is capable of attracting women to him that actually want him.

This could easily be Euron as well. Him and Victarion are interchangeable in many ways. Except Euron is less transparent about what he is on the inside.  

Victarion is a people-pleaser. He wants to be popular among the Ironborn, he wants to please the Ironborn. Why else would he ride the fence between the drowned god (of whom there is no evidence of) and the red god (of whom there is ample evidence of that Victarion can personally attest to)?

The Ironborn are twisted. Salt wives and their children are not considered to be a protected part of neither the family nor the household, farming and mining are sinfully disgraceful professions and greenlanders are somehow subhuman and deserving of whatever the Ironborn bring upon them. So, in there world, I guess beating pregnant women to death with your bare hands is fine. Obviously that wouldn't fly in the Riverlands, much less Dorne and the North. But hey, we are talking about the Ironborn.

Look, I'm not saying Victarion will be a gentle husband. I'm not saying that Daenerys will think him to be one or that she will want one. She didn't even want a gentle, good husband when she sought out Hizdahr…and she was in a good place at that point.

What I am saying is that Daenerys will have a soul-bleeding, flag-burning, "kill the boy" transformation in the Dothraki Sea. What I am saying is that Daenerys is going to want fire and blood and dread and Victarion will be in a position to give that to her. Victarion has no idea what he'll be dealing with. Euron probably has no idea either but, to his credit, he seems to be both smart and a quick learner. He'll catch on.

But when Daenerys marries and joins herself to Victarion, I don't think she'll just trade in one Greyjoy for another the moment she finds out what a sexy beast the second Greyjoy is. No way.

1. Girls - both in the books and in real life - are just as promiscuous as boys; the only difference is the fact that they are just choosier than boys. Ever heard of the proverb "a bird in hand is worth more than two in the bush?" So, other than some eye-candy and amazing orgasms, what can Daenerys possibly get out of jumping from Victarion's bed to Euron's bed that she can't get out of Victarion? Or, better yet, what can Euron give her that she can't take - or doesn't have - for herself? Daenerys is not only a girl (i.e. choosy and methodical in her promiscuity) but she is a lot smarter than what people are willing to admit - characters and readers alike.
2. Euron is a sorcerer and he's only getting more and more powerful. Daenerys has a deep distrust of sorcerers and she's been around the block long enough to be able to pick one out when she sees one. Again: Daenerys is the opposite of Cersei in this - she's smarter than she thinks she is.
3. Victarion is easy to manipulate and outmaneuver because he's painfully stupid and ignorant. Euron, however, is probably one of the most smartest, if not the smartest, characters in the whole entire series. Daenerys, even though she is a wily, fearsome warlord in the making, is not going to be able to bend him to her will; Euron may be able to overpower her initially but he too won't be able to get her to submit. The two will be at each other's throats before long. Why would a dog-show trainer gleefully trade in a temperamental puppy for a man-eating adult wolf?
4. Let's be honest: Victarion has a better claim than Euron does. Period. Kingsmoot be damned. As a matter of fact, the legitimacy of the Kingsmoot is already in doubt by the fact that
   1. Theon, the last of Balon Greyjoy's trueborn sons, is alive and was not there to participate
   2. Euron killed the previous king so that he could have a chance to be king and, thus, is both a traitor and a kinslayer
   3. The Ironborn are super-fickle and have short attention spans; they were already beginning to turn on Euron which is the reason why Euron couldn't leave for Meereen in the first place

Victarion has also has a knack of talking out of the side of his neck (i.e. saying stuff and not meaning it or saying stuff and not backing it up). He's going to be in for a rude awakening when he meets Daenerys. Or better yet, when he realizes that the horn doesn't work like he think it does.

Speaking of the horn, Victarion is so stupid LOL. He repeatedly tells himself that Euron's gifts are poison but he takes full advantage of all the gifts Euron provides him (i.e. the dusky woman, the horn, the crew, the license to travel to Meereen and fetch Daenerys).

I feel bad for him.

But yeah, Daenerys doesn't want Daario or Quentyn (despite of the fact that she enjoys Daario) because they can't give her anything she wants or needs. She and Ser Barristan both make that abundantly clear. Victarion (or Euron, if you must insist) is able to give her what she wants and/or needs.

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I agree with this. I believe (f)Aegon will fall in love with Elia Sand who is accompanying Arianne to meet (f)Aegon. I believe symbolically Elia Sand represents both Elia Martell and Lyanna Stark the same way (f)Aegon symbolically represents Rhaegar. Elia is obviously named after Rhaegar's wife Elia and shares her Dornish looks. While Elia Sand's personality seems to have a lot of common with Lyanna Stark's.

I never thought about (f)Aegon and Elia Sand falling in love with each other. But I always knew that Elia Sand would be a troublemaker. So it makes sense.

I actually thought that Elia would be the one to send a raven to Prince Doran and accidentally (or purposefully) use the code word that tells him that Aegon is 100% legit and that Dorne must support him. At that point, Arianne will be forced between a rock and a hard place: especially if she comes to believe that Aegon is fake, that he just isn't cut out for the job or that he'd be a bad husband/father and that its better for Dorne to let it play itself out.

It would also be absolutely hilarious (but absolutely horrible for Arianne) if Elia puts Arianne into a difficult situation where she has no choice but to marry Aegon only for Elia to start screwing her king-husband behind her back...and end up pregnant.

Oh and, to make matters worse:

• the Hand of the King is giving her hell because she's a Martell and Martell women have a knack for taking away and then destroying every man that he has ever cared about in his life
• said Hand of the King, Jon Connington, has been accidentally infecting almost everyone around him with greyscale
• Daenerys comes to Westeros with a vengeance

Oh, and RIGHT THEN is when she learns that Aegon is fake (thereby making every single good thing she experienced illusory and every bad thing she endured pointless) and that Varys is actually an evil mermaid-wizard in disguise who has been spent the last two decades trying to completely destroy human civilization because he/she thinks regular humans are old news and that it's time for the mermen to purge the world.

LOL

It's a crackpot theory but it's entertaining as hell and it could work.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 6/23/2018 at 4:09 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Why did Vic travel to Slaver's Bay to begin with? Who provided Victarion with the ships that he has?

Euron.

I gotta hew & haw about this a bit. Yes, Euron told Vic to travel to Slaver's Bay and collect the Dragon Queen.

Euron, returning from exile, after the death of Balon, has been elected king of the Iron Born.

BUT Vic is/has been the Captain of the Iron Fleet for a long time. Euron may be cray cray but he isn't stupid. PLUS Euron is hopped up on that special juice.

On 6/23/2018 at 4:09 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Euron and Cersei aren't going to hook up until Dream. There's just too much going on for them to join forces in Winds - much less meet. By that point, Aegon and Arianne will be in King's Landing and Cersei - if she's still alive at this point - will have already ran for the hills. Pun intended.

Argh, I dunna want this Iron Born shite to carry on into DoS. I'm hoping it will end in WoW. I'm hoping a kracken will get the kracken.

I was also hoping LF would fly from the moon door, but now that the Eryie has been shutdown for winter looks like that ain't gonna happen.

Quote

Euron is definitely not going to take Storm's End. He's not your average Ironborn pirate-king; there's nothing for him in Storm's End. The reason why he's attacking Oldtown is because there's a buttload of magical and scientific knowledge to be found and used there. 

I agree there is nothing Euron can do with SE. My stance is that Euron can attack Oldtown BUT Euron has neither the men or stamina to hold Oldtown.

I typed a post a while back, perhaps a year or so ago. Short version ---- Vic arrives at Slavers Bay with 30+ ships not all are fighting ships.

Euron has been leaving a trail of Iron Born left behind on various islands.

The Iron Born capture ships as they float around wreaking havoc --- each time they capture a ship they have to put Iron Born on the captured ship to keep the captured individuals (thralls) in line.  Rather risksy.

Sooooo, it is my opine that the Iron Fleet just ain't as powerful as it once was. Jabber-wonky, this Iron Born stuff is jabber-wonky filler.

Kinda like Brienne traveling around hunting for the girl only to end up in LSH's hidey hole and sent on a mission to seek and find Jaime.

Edit: yes the jabber-wonky was intentional.

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 9:15 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Good points. I stand corrected.

But we all know what kind of person Cersei is: she's not going to just let that go.

And, in all honesty, she has a valid (shallow but still very valid) case: she is the de facto head of House Lannister and the previous head of House Lannister lent the money to the previous kings who sat the Iron Throne in good faith which has then been eroded piece-by-piece by civil war with the Starks, the Tullys, the Baratheons, the Tyrells, the terrorism of the Greyjoys and the violent return of the maybe-fake-maybe-legit Targaryens. Like I said it's shallow because almost everything that has happened up to that point in King's Landing is her fault. But it's valid.

Particularly if she makes nice with overseas bankers and especially if she just ends up fleeing the city before Aegon and co. can get there rather than trying to blow the city up on her way out.

Moreover, Cersei will have enough money and financial legitimacy to hire sellswords and assassins (she'll likely bankrupt herself but hey...) to enforce her will on the Red Keep.

So, then what's the point of GRRM going out of his way to introduce the Iron Bank and the fact that the nation is ~6 million and counting "dollars" in debt - a subplot that goes all the way back to the first half of Game and became a big part of the main King's Landing plot in Feast - if Aegon and crew are just going to handwave 1/2 of it away.

Unless, of course, he's running a long con with the audience where the heroes of Westeros miraculously manage to save Westeros from the Others and Euron and Cersei and Littlefinger and maybe even Daenerys...only for said heroes to be destroyed, incarcerated or enslaved by the Iron Bank.

In that case ... I'm cool with that.

Yes, they will. They will absolutely need new debt.

Because:

1. Euron Greyjoy and most of the Ironborn are still raping the Reach. The Reach happens to be both the realm's fruitbasket - even in times of winter - and the second wealthiest, if not the #1, region in realm.
2. Daenerys Targaryen is coming with three flying nukes with teeth (air force), 8,000+ castrated Spartans (infantry), 500,000+ Dothraki (cavalry), God-knows-how-many former slaves/followers of the red god (army + auxiliary support), the remaining Ironborn and their sleek longships forming the backbone of her navy with Aurane Waters maybe even providing brand new, state-of-the-art warships and her own wealth and food supply
3. The Riverlands, Westeros' backup breadbasket in bad times and a rival of the Reach in good ones, has been so thoroughly devastated to the point where IF (note: that's a big if) they had any crops and arable lands that weren't destroyed or ruined by the Wot5K, there wouldn't be enough people to work the fields in time. So any food that they could have salvaged would've gone bad before they made it to the dinner table
4. King's Landing is completely unable to support itself and the rest of the Crownlands would starve to death if they even tried to feed King's Landing
5. Westeros' third breadbasket, the Vale, has been shut down by both Littlefinger and winter itself. Although Littlefinger is hoarding food, it's not for charity, it's for political leverage. And I doubt he will be able to jump on the Aegon bandwagon via Sansa because his Sansa-related plots are too far along to be cancelled or postponed. Plus, he's too far to be of any assistance.

So yeah.

The fact that the Iron Throne is broke even with the support of the realm's two wealthiest families means that Aegon and friends are going to be absolutely busted.

How will they fund a war with both Euron and Daenerys? Even if they can count on Euron and Daenerys being too busy going at each other to bother with them, that whole southern half of the continent will bleed in the crossfire. And it's unlikely that Euron or Daenerys (or even Cersei for that matter) will completely ignore them or the lands they claim to belong to them long enough for them to get their s#1! together.

By Eliminating 4/6ths of the Crowns debts they free up a huge amount of spending cash every year.  Aegon also brings Ilyrio to the fold.  I doubt Ilyrio would put Aegon on the thrown only to allow him to drown in debt.

Aegon certain is not free from hardship, but Cersei eliminated a million dragons of debt from the faith, and as previously acknowledged anyone other than a Lannister will say the Lannister debt is eliminated due to treason.  By bringing much of the Stormlands, Crownlands, Dorne, and northern Reach into his lands, Aegon will in fact have a lot of viable land to rule over.  Exactly what happens to the Oldotown and Highgarden sections of the Reach, as well as the Vale and Riverlands is up for debate,, but Dorne and the previously mentioned Stormlands and Crownlands is basically not.  He is going to win those regions, and it is hard for me to imagine the upper Reach not bowing as well as the lower Riverlands, if not more regions.

Danaerys should have her own wealth, though that is really a separate question.

What I responded to in the beginning, and would have liked to keep this conversation to, was saying that Cersei calling in her debt would lead to a trade war.  I believe you made an very overly simplified statement and simply wanted to refute that point.

[BlackLightning]

13 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

By Eliminating 4/6ths of the Crowns debts they free up a huge amount of spending cash every year.  Aegon also brings Ilyrio to the fold.  I doubt Ilyrio would put Aegon on the thrown only to allow him to drown in debt.

Aegon certain is not free from hardship, but Cersei eliminated a million dragons of debt from the faith, and as previously acknowledged anyone other than a Lannister will say the Lannister debt is eliminated due to treason.  By bringing much of the Stormlands, Crownlands, Dorne, and northern Reach into his lands, Aegon will in fact have a lot of viable land to rule over.  Exactly what happens to the Oldotown and Highgarden sections of the Reach, as well as the Vale and Riverlands is up for debate,, but Dorne and the previously mentioned Stormlands and Crownlands is basically not.  He is going to win those regions, and it is hard for me to imagine the upper Reach not bowing as well as the lower Riverlands, if not more regions.

Danaerys should have her own wealth, though that is really a separate question.

What I responded to in the beginning, and would have liked to keep this conversation to, was saying that Cersei calling in her debt would lead to a trade war.  I believe you made an very overly simplified statement and simply wanted to refute that point.

I did make an overly simplified statement. But I still believe that there will be a trade war of something kind....over food.

If you remember in Clash, King's Landing was starving the moment the Tyrells stopped selling food to the city. And that was at the end of 10 year summer. (The Crownlands, in general, don't seem to be a particularly arable grounds)

Imagine what kind of situation the realm will be in in the dead of winter come Dream. Aegon's going to need to feed his people and Cersei will have lots of money and assets.

I'm not sure how Cersei can be called a traitor in this case; Aegon has been dead to the world for ~15 years, he has been raised in foreign lands and his army is largely comprised of foreign sellswords. She's getting forced out of the Red Keep (which has been her home and her seat of power for 15 years) by a foreign army supported by key Westerosi high lords. How can she be a traitor; it's an invasion not a rebellion.

Her most heinously treasonous act - passing off her incestuous bastards as legit Baratheons and fighting against anyone who protested - has never mattered and will continue to not matter a damn bit to Aegon, JonCon or Varys. The Baratheon dynasty, in their eyes, has always been illegitimate. To them, it doesn't matter who sits on the Iron Throne, the realm will always belong to the Targaryen family just like Winterfell will always belong to the Stark family.

But okay. Let's say the Throne will declare her a traitor. At that point, she cannot be relied upon to help Aegon solve his painful food shortage issue.

However, the people of the West are also going to be hungry. Cersei can always buy food but there's the problem of shipping, the fact that money runs out (annnnnnnd if you use too much at once, you have bad inflation and possibly economic crashes) and she might still be in hot water with the Iron Bank.

And more:

• Euron and maybe Daenerys even are going to plunder and seize any shipments coming to Westeros.
• Littlefinger has been hoarding food since, at least, Storm - if not Game - either on his own accord or through Lysa.
• Sansa spent key moments in Feast learning how to manage household expenses and logistics (i.e. cost and distribution of food) like the wife of a high lord would.
• Winterfell's glass gardens were notably destroyed when the Boltons sacked the castle and repairs are happening very slowly.
• Having men return home in time for the harvest was a major concern for Robb.
• Stannis and Jon (Stannis belatedly so) have been making deals with the Iron Bank on the basis of the fact that they both know there will be no food to eat
• Daenerys will have effectively destroyed the system of slavery (and, therefore, its economic system) by the end of Winds. Meaning Essos will have to take a long time to adjust to the fact that there are no slaves. Time is not something these characters have.
• Daenerys will have much of Essos (the smallfolk) backing her and supplying her with plenty of food.

That's what I mean by trade war.

Everyone's gotta eat.