No Rebellion, Rheagar married with Elia, Robert with Lyana and Brandon with Cat

[Pikachu101]

5 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

also considered betrothing Viserys to Rhaenys

That might happen, especially if Rhaella gives birth to Dany who would be a better suited bride for Aegon because unlike Rhaenys she's 100% Targaryen. 

5 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

He seems to get overlooked in a lot of the discussions about the great lords and their heirs in around 280-282.

I find that odd seeing as Jon Arryn must have played a part in the Southern Ambitions, Lysa would have been a good choice as that way the Starks, Tullys, Baratheons, and Arryns would all be interlinked. 

[Angel Eyes]

50 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

That might happen, especially if Rhaella gives birth to Dany who would be a better suited bride for Aegon because unlike Rhaenys she's 100% Targaryen. 

I find that odd seeing as Jon Arryn must have played a part in the Southern Ambitions, Lysa would have been a good choice as that way the Starks, Tullys, Baratheons, and Arryns would all be interlinked. 

I wonder why Hoster didn’t try and link Lysa and Elbert. Or Lysa and Ned. 

Speaking of which, nobody talks of what Rickard Stark planned for Ned. That is, if there was anything planned for Ned.

[Ylath's Snout]

30 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I wonder why Hoster didn’t try and link Lysa and Elbert.

Maybe that was something he way working on before the Rebellion?

31 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Or Lysa and Ned.

He and House Tully wouldn't really benefit any from an even tighter bond with the Starks. Same reason a Arianne-Vis match is pointless from both the Martell and Targ side.

34 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Speaking of which, nobody talks of what Rickard Stark planned for Ned. That is, if there was anything planned for Ned.

We lack info to go on so going beyond listing potential brides is dicey. Southern Ambition might have been a thing or a lie told by a woman bitter at her fate. 

I will say that Ned not being endangered by the time of the Rebellion was lucky but also more than a bit odd. Was Rickard planning some grand reveal at Brandon and Cat's wedding?

[Angel Eyes]

12 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Maybe that was something he way working on before the Rebellion?

He and House Tully wouldn't really benefit any from an even tighter bond with the Starks. Same reason a Arianne-Vis match is pointless from both the Martell and Targ side.

We lack info to go on so going beyond listing potential brides is dicey. Southern Ambition might have been a thing or a lie told by a woman bitter at her fate. 

I will say that Ned not being endangered by the time of the Rebellion was lucky but also more than a bit odd. Was Rickard planning some grand reveal at Brandon and Cat's wedding?

I would have thought that Hoster would be more willing to bundle off a disgraced daughter instead of being picky.

[Ylath's Snout]

10 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I would have thought that Hoster would be more willing to bundle off a disgraced daughter instead of being picky.

Sure he'd be rid of a troublesome daughter but how would Rickard Stark benefit?

If he was a a Targ hating master-schemermer then he doesn't gain a single sword or gold coin from the match when there has to be plenty of other Houses that could be brought into the conspiracy. Hooking Ned up with a Frey girl would ensure passage though the Twins and plenty of fighting men for example.

If he was a regular Warden of the North that made one* extraordinary marriage-pact in Lyanna-Robert then he would have a lot of bannerman pissed about getting passed over for a marriage for the third time that generation. Even more so if that match didn't bring any benefit to the North.

 

 

*I'd argue that marrying a Tully isn't crazy considering that a lot of Norther trade passes through the Riverlands, so ensuring good relations with them makes plenty of sense.

[Angel Eyes]

17 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Sure he'd be rid of a troublesome daughter but how would Rickard Stark benefit?

If he was a a Targ hating master-schemermer then he doesn't gain a single sword or gold coin from the match when there has to be plenty of other Houses that could be brought into the conspiracy. Hooking Ned up with a Frey girl would ensure passage though the Twins and plenty of fighting men for example.

If he was a regular Warden of the North that made one* extraordinary marriage-pact in Lyanna-Robert then he would have a lot of bannerman pissed about getting passed over for a marriage for the third time that generation. Even more so if that match didn't bring any benefit to the North.

 

 

*I'd argue that marrying a Tully isn't crazy considering that a lot of Norther trade passes through the Riverlands, so ensuring good relations with them makes plenty of sense.

Other marriages have been made for less benefit. Look at Stannis Baratheon’s marriage to Selyse Florent.

[Bael's Bastard]

22 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

I find that odd seeing as Jon Arryn must have played a part in the Southern Ambitions, Lysa would have been a good choice as that way the Starks, Tullys, Baratheons, and Arryns would all be interlinked. 

I personally think many people are way off on Rickard Stark's "southron ambitions," which I think were mostly about getting closer to the south/southron houses, and the Targs/Iron Throne.

We know he visited King's Landing and got Aerys interested in the North and the Wall in 264, and we know he fostered Ned with Jon in around 271 at the same time Steffon fostered his heir Robert. It is unclear what relationship Rickard or Steffon had with Jon Arryn or each other prior to that*.

Lord Robert, after Steffon's death, seems to have been the one to ask Rickard for the Lyanna match, and the only other betrothal Rickard appears to have made for his children was to agree to take Catelyn Tully for his heir Brandon.

For all this talk of the great houses plotting together, there sure is a lack of marriages and betrothals for many of the Arryns, Baratheons, Starks, and Tullys leading up to the rebellion.

- Lord Jon Arryn - no know marriage/betrothal
- Elbert Arryn (heir) - no know marriage/betrothal

- Lord Robert Baratheon - betrothed to Lyanna Stark
- Stannis Baratheon (heir) - no know marriage/betrothal
- Renly Baratheon - no know marriage/betrothal

- Brandon Stark (heir) - betrothed to Catelyn Tully
- Eddard Stark - no know marriage/betrothal
- Lyanna Stark - betrothed to Lord Robert Baratheon
- Benjen Stark - no know marriage/betrothal

- Edmure Tully (heir) - no know marriage/betrothal
- Brynden Tully - Hoster wished to betroth him to a Redwyne
- Catelyn Tully - betrothed to Brandon Stark (heir)
- Lysa Tully - Hoster wished to betroth her to Jaime Lannister (heir), son of Lord Tywin, Hand of Aerys II Targaryen

Hoster had a free daughter (Lysa) he could have been using to try to tie him to the Baratheons (Stannis) or Arryns (Jon, Elbert), but he was too busy going to King's Landing to finalize a deal to marry her off the the heir (Jaime) of the Hand (Tywin) of King Aerys, a man who was apparently still hoping to wed his daughter (Cersei) to a Targaryen prince until Aerys named Jaime to the KG in 280-281.

* As far as other recent Stark/Vale ties before and after the fosterings go: 
- Lorra Royce was the mother of Rickard's father's (Edwyle) father (Willam)
- Lorra Royce was the mother of Rickard's wife's (Lyarra) father (Rodrik)
- Benedict Royce was the husband of Rickard's father's (Edwyle) sister (Jocelyn)
- Elbert Arryn (Jon's nephew/heir) was a companion of Rickard's son/heir (Brandon)

[Ylath's Snout]

4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Other marriages have been made for less benefit. Look at Stannis Baratheon’s marriage to Selyse Florent.

Naww man the Florent marriage gave both sides plenty of benefits:

Stannis and House Baratheon get: Weakened Tyrells, a pretty potent and loyal ally.

Florent get: a close bond to the royal family, alliance with a Great House and a good claim on the Paramount Lordship for the Stormlands down the line.

In a Ned-Lysa match each side would already be allies in this scenario.

Stark: Near as I can tell nothing.

Tully: Be rid of a troubled daughter.

The only was I could see this as a reasonable match would be in Hoster footed the bill for rebuilding Moat Cailin where Ned and Lysa would take up residence.

---------------------

2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

For all this talk of the great houses plotting together, there sure is a lack of marriages and betrothals for many of the Arryns, Baratheons, Starks, and Tullys leading up to the rebellion.

Good post.

---------------------

So I just had a idea. What if some of the Lords with unmarried children sought spouses for their kids across the Narrow Sea? Good relations  (and maybe a prepared escape route if Aerys loses his mind completely) with Braavos for example might be handy. Doran did something like that and Aerys tried so why not Jon Arryn or Rickard?

[punzerknacker]

On 6/19/2018 at 4:56 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

Had he known about Daenerys, I would not be shocked if he had betrothed Viserys to baby Daenerys for a "pure" Targaryen match.

I wonder what Aerys' stance on sibling marriage was, though. Wasn't his marriage to Rhaella known to be an unhappy one? And on top of that, they had problems conceiving healthly children, which is not surprising giving the many generations of incest. Maybe he wouldn't want to repeat the same mistake with his own children?

[Pikachu101]

On 6/20/2018 at 5:54 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Stannis Baratheon’s marriage to Selyse Florent

Actually if you look closer at the situation the Baratheon/Florent marriage was beneficial for Robert and his new dynasty. 

As we are all aware House Tyrell was a steward for the Gardeners with no actual royal heritage, Aegon I gave the Reach to Harlen Tyrell instead of a family more closely related to Mern IX and in return they remained loyal to the Targaryens during Robert's Rebellion.

What family has the closest relation to the last Gardener king? House Florent.

The Stannis/Seleyse marriage acts as a warning to the Tyrells, if they try to rebel or declare for Viserys Robert can very easily replace them with his in laws because at the end of the day the Florents have the stronger claim and he's not a Targaryen. 

[Pikachu101]

13 hours ago, punzerknacker said:

I wonder what Aerys' stance on sibling marriage was, though. Wasn't his marriage to Rhaella known to be an unhappy one? And on top of that, they had problems conceiving healthly children, which is not surprising giving the many generations of incest. Maybe he wouldn't want to repeat the same mistake with his own children?

I don't think Aerys cared about that kind of stuff, the man was insane. 

[punzerknacker]

On 6/21/2018 at 10:31 PM, Pikachu101 said:

I don't think Aerys cared about that kind of stuff, the man was insane. 

But he would care about a pure Targaryen match? That would make him (in that respect) as sane or insane as all his ancestors who did the same thing.

[Pikachu101]

2 minutes ago, punzerknacker said:

But he would care about a pure Targaryen match? That would make him (in that respect) as sane or insane as all his ancestors who did the same thing.

You're point was that Aerys would realise inbreeding was a mistake, I pointed out that only a sane person would realise this 

[punzerknacker]

1 minute ago, Pikachu101 said:

You're point was that Aerys would realise inbreeding was a mistake, I pointed out that only a sane person would realise this 

I disagree. Aerys was unhappy in his marriage. Even being insane he might be able to tell that sibling marriage isn't necessarily a great idea, if not for genetic reasons, then at least because of his personal experience. But I guess it's easy to say "he was insane so absolutely nothing going on in his head could have made sense". He was able to come to logical conclusions even if based on (possibly) wrong assumptions, such as "Rhaegar wants to conspire against me at the tourney of Harrenhal so I will go there to prevent this", "Tywin will turn against me so I will keep his son as a hostage", "Dorne will turn against me so I keep Elia a hostage" and so on. Not necessarily stupid conclusions to draw. Might have been whispered to him by other people though, but he was able to tell that 'if I do A then B won't happen'. A completely different question is was he compassionate enough to even care about whether Viserys, his favourite son, would be happy in his marriage. An argument for a Dany/Viserys match would be that Aerys trusted no one and at least he could be sure that his own daughter was unlikely to turn against him. Then again, he also suspected that Rhaegar, his own son, was turning against him, so who knows.

[Angel Eyes]

On 6/19/2018 at 7:09 PM, Ylath's Snout said:

Sure he'd be rid of a troublesome daughter but how would Rickard Stark benefit?

If he was a a Targ hating master-schemermer then he doesn't gain a single sword or gold coin from the match when there has to be plenty of other Houses that could be brought into the conspiracy. Hooking Ned up with a Frey girl would ensure passage though the Twins and plenty of fighting men for example.

If he was a regular Warden of the North that made one* extraordinary marriage-pact in Lyanna-Robert then he would have a lot of bannerman pissed about getting passed over for a marriage for the third time that generation. Even more so if that match didn't bring any benefit to the North.

 

 

*I'd argue that marrying a Tully isn't crazy considering that a lot of Norther trade passes through the Riverlands, so ensuring good relations with them makes plenty of sense.

Meanwhile, marrying Lysa to Jon Arryn wasn’t a very good idea either. Vastly different ages mean vastly different needs. Jon being Lord of the Vale meant that she was close to Petyr, who seduced her and gave him just the influence he needed in court. A combination of damaged eggs from Lysa and weak seed from Jon created several miscarriages, stillbirths, and a sickly Sweetrobin. Sweetrobin gets coddled, Jon wants him to be less influenced by Lysa, Petyr suggests Lysa poison Jon, and the rest is history.

And then I shout “You imbecile! You bloated idiot!”

[SFDanny]

On 6/17/2018 at 3:02 AM, kissdbyfire said:

This s an interesting detail, and memory fails me at the mo. Did the Jaime/Lysa thing happened before or after Aerys told Tywin Cersei wasn't good enough for Rhaegar? 

And I have to say, I would have liked to read about Stannis and Cersei as a couple!

 

So sorry to be so late in replying. Other things have preoccupied my time. But @Bael's Bastard has the right of it, it is years after Aerys's turning Tywin down that the marriage pact between Jaime and Lysa was being negotiated. The negotiations break down when, in 281 Jaime is named to the Kingsguard. We know it is in 281 because we are told Ser Harlan Grandison dies in that year (TWoI&F 121) and Jaime is sworn in during the Harrenhal tourney of the same year. So, from the night Tywin makes his proposal for a Rhaegar/Cersei marriage at the Lannisport Tourney in 276 to 281 it is likely around five years. Just when the negotiations started is unknown, but it is during the four years Jaime was a squire.

[Stormking902]

I think Cersie would be happy with Edmure, sure she would probably hate it at first but Edmure would do his duty and above that be very loving. Besides CR isnt to far so she could visit when ever she gets super board at Riverrunn. 

[Pikachu101]

48 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

I think Cersie would be happy with Edmure, sure she would probably hate it at first but Edmure would do his duty and above that be very loving. Besides CR isnt to far so she could visit when ever she gets super board at Riverrunn. 

Cersei's beautiful and old enough to remind him of Cat Edmure would worship her so I can honestly see Cersei being happy as Lady of Riverrun.

We know that Hoster tried to broker a match between Jaime and Lysa so I can see him doing the same with Cersei and Edmure.