What if Daenerys was Ugly?

[Pride of Driftmark]

This is probably my favorite "what if" question of the whole lot of them, and it's the only one I spend any time thinking about. Would anyone take her seriously? When Missandei proclaimed all of her titles would people just laugh? Would Jorah Mormont still follow her? Would Barristan? 

I know ugly Targaryens aren't a thing, and this is obviously a stupid thought, but wouldn't it be a really interesting story if Daenerys was able to build up her whole following despite physical shortcomings? Sure, her gender is a significant barrier, and I hold a lot of respect for Daenerys as a person, but whenever I think of ways to make her more interesting, this always comes to mind.

Just a wild thought that will probably get me kicked off of this forum. 

[Canon Claude]

Well, it’s hard not to speculate on this when the only main female character who is portrayed as ugly is Brienne, and it’s such a talked-about part of her character that her apparent grotesqueness threatens to overshadow the rest of her character. I know a few people who’ve taken issue with it in their reading of GRRM’s books.

[Corvo the Crow]

Before or after she hatches her dragons? If after, she'll become aerys with teats much sooner with all the ridiculation and taunts and jokes.

Notice the "much sooner" as she is already on the path, burning one person at a time towards the greatest mass cremation Westeros has ever seen.

[Katerine459]

If she'd been born ugly, I doubt she could have been sold to Khal Drogo (he wouldn't have taken her). If she'd been offered, and he wasn't pleased... the books don't state what would have happened.

Without that, she probably would have stayed with Viserys, and stayed the timid girl she was at the beginning of the series, until either Illyrio hatched a different plan, or cast them out.

[Moiraine Sedai]

I have no doubt Daenerys would still find a way to be successful.  Darnerys is my favorite character and it has nothing to do with her breathtaking beauty.  She's smart, brave, and resourceful.  She was born to be great.

[Mordred]

What if Jon was smart?  What if Sansa had any sense?  What if Tyrion can slam dunk?  

Beauty is just one facet of the complicated character that is Daenerys Targaryen.  She is a natural leader and proven when she kept her weak khalasar together through the Red Waste.  Courage?  She has plenty.  She is very intelligent and proven when she consistently outmaneuvers her enemies.  She rescued 8 thousand plus unsullied from Kraznys Mo Naklos using the best strategy ever employed in the novels.   She wrote the book on The Art of War II.  Her beauty adds to the depth of her character and one of her personal traits that make her special.  It's a mistake to assume that people only respect Daenerys because of her beauty.   She is hero material right from the beginning.  She found a way to survive the Dothraki and win the affections of her horselord husband.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She rescued 8 thousand abused unsullied from their sadistic master.  This fourteen year old girl lent her strength to her people and got them across the desert.   She bested the warlocks of Qarth and outsmarted them in their own palace.   So when Missandei calls, " The Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men.  The Mother of Dragons.  Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea.  Breaker of Chains" those are titles clearly deserved.  

 

[Darth Sidious]

20 hours ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

This is probably my favorite "what if" question of the whole lot of them, and it's the only one I spend any time thinking about. Would anyone take her seriously? When Missandei proclaimed all of her titles would people just laugh? Would Jorah Mormont still follow her? Would Barristan? 

I know ugly Targaryens aren't a thing, and this is obviously a stupid thought, but wouldn't it be a really interesting story if Daenerys was able to build up her whole following despite physical shortcomings? Sure, her gender is a significant barrier, and I hold a lot of respect for Daenerys as a person, but whenever I think of ways to make her more interesting, this always comes to mind.

Just a wild thought that will probably get me kicked off of this forum. 

Daenerys is very interesting as she is.  The most interesting of the primary characters, in my opinion.  Her loveliness is part of the Targaryen heritage.  It is one of her many  gifts.  Being the resourceful person that she is, of course she would use every available tool at her disposal.  She used her beauty to take Mero off his guard and took his insults with composure all the while plotting to take down his army.  Daenerys is a very cunning tactician and a great leader.  She is not only about beauty.  She is a better young leader than Robb, Jon, Joffrey, and Theon.  

 

14 hours ago, Mordred said:

What if Jon was smart?  What if Sansa had any sense?  What if Tyrion can slam dunk?  

Beauty is just one facet of the complicated character that is Daenerys Targaryen.  She is a natural leader and proven when she kept her weak khalasar together through the Red Waste.  Courage?  She has plenty.  She is very intelligent and proven when she consistently outmaneuvers her enemies.  She rescued 8 thousand plus unsullied from Kraznys Mo Naklos using the best strategy ever employed in the novels.   She wrote the book on The Art of War II.  Her beauty adds to the depth of her character and one of her personal traits that make her special.  It's a mistake to assume that people only respect Daenerys because of her beauty.   She is hero material right from the beginning.  She found a way to survive the Dothraki and win the affections of her horselord husband.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She rescued 8 thousand abused unsullied from their sadistic master.  This fourteen year old girl lent her strength to her people and got them across the desert.   She bested the warlocks of Qarth and outsmarted them in their own palace.   So when Missandei calls, " The Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men.  The Mother of Dragons.  Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea.  Breaker of Chains" those are titles clearly deserved.  

 

I concur with your opinion.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 6/15/2018 at 11:13 AM, Pride of Driftmark said:

she would be the butt of a ton of "your mom" jokes

 

[867-5309]

22 hours ago, Mordred said:

What if Jon was smart?  What if Sansa had any sense?  What if Tyrion can slam dunk?  

Beauty is just one facet of the complicated character that is Daenerys Targaryen.  She is a natural leader and proven when she kept her weak khalasar together through the Red Waste.  Courage?  She has plenty.  She is very intelligent and proven when she consistently outmaneuvers her enemies.  She rescued 8 thousand plus unsullied from Kraznys Mo Naklos using the best strategy ever employed in the novels.   She wrote the book on The Art of War II.  Her beauty adds to the depth of her character and one of her personal traits that make her special.  It's a mistake to assume that people only respect Daenerys because of her beauty.   She is hero material right from the beginning.  She found a way to survive the Dothraki and win the affections of her horselord husband.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She rescued 8 thousand abused unsullied from their sadistic master.  This fourteen year old girl lent her strength to her people and got them across the desert.   She bested the warlocks of Qarth and outsmarted them in their own palace.   So when Missandei calls, " The Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men.  The Mother of Dragons.  Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea.  Breaker of Chains" those are titles clearly deserved.  

 

Lack of beauty never stopped Arya and Jon from getting around.  I am sure Dany would find a way to get power even if she had the looooooooooooong face of the Starks.  

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I still think Drogo would have taken her as long as she had her 13 year old body. I'm not sure his type cares that much about looks as long as they are not adults. I'm sure originally he didn't even plan on looking at Daenerys' face as he savagely plants his seed in her from behind. So Dany would still birth her dragon's and things would go as they have.

[Byfort of Corfe]

Baarristan the Bold may have served her out of loyalty to her family.  Jorah serves her out of love/lust. Drogo would have probably raped her until she was pregnant, then dumped her into his harem. Had things played out further would Daario have killed his partners if Dany was ugly?  I doubt it.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 hour ago, 867-5309 said:

Lack of beauty never stopped Arya and Jon from getting around.  I am sure Dany would find a way to get power even if she had the looooooooooooong face of the Starks.

The long Stark face also helped Lyanna catch Rheagar's eye, and he was the most beautiful Targaryen of them all.

[Bullrout]

On 6/15/2018 at 7:31 PM, Mordred said:

What if Jon was smart?  What if Sansa had any sense?  What if Tyrion can slam dunk?  

Beauty is just one facet of the complicated character that is Daenerys Targaryen.  She is a natural leader and proven when she kept her weak khalasar together through the Red Waste.  Courage?  She has plenty.  She is very intelligent and proven when she consistently outmaneuvers her enemies.  She rescued 8 thousand plus unsullied from Kraznys Mo Naklos using the best strategy ever employed in the novels.   She wrote the book on The Art of War II.  Her beauty adds to the depth of her character and one of her personal traits that make her special.  It's a mistake to assume that people only respect Daenerys because of her beauty.   She is hero material right from the beginning.  She found a way to survive the Dothraki and win the affections of her horselord husband.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She rescued 8 thousand abused unsullied from their sadistic master.  This fourteen year old girl lent her strength to her people and got them across the desert.   She bested the warlocks of Qarth and outsmarted them in their own palace.   So when Missandei calls, " The Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men.  The Mother of Dragons.  Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea.  Breaker of Chains" those are titles clearly deserved.  

 

I am in agreement.  Looks or lack thereof would not have stopped someone as driven and as smart as Daenerys Targaryen.  The mere fact that she is a Targaryen princess puts her ahead of the likes of Sansa and any other daughter of a lord.   She is Azor Ahai and she would have found a way to find and hatch dragon eggs.  

11 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

The long Stark face also helped Lyanna catch Rheagar's eye, and he was the most beautiful Targaryen of them all.

Lyanna also had the long face but probably not to the excessive length of Arya's.  They can share the same family appearance without being identical twins.  A brother and sister can share the same facial shape but still look different.  The proportions can differ in eye shape.  Angle of the nose.  Arya horseface can share the long face of Lyana because it is a family thing of the Starks.  It's just that it doesn't mean they all look alike.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Bullrout said:

Lyanna also had long face but probably not to the excessive length of Arya's.  They can share a similar appearance but still not be identical.  A horseface can share some of Lyanna's features but still look different.

Perhaps, but we still don't know and can only speculate. Kevan Lannister and Maester Yandel don't seem too impressed with Lyanna's looks compared to the other women of her time. Maybe Lyanna had just as much of a horse face as Arya but Rhaegar was just super attracted to women with long horse faces. Also, Ashara Dayne might have had an thing for horsed face Ned and Ashara was almost as beautiful as Rhaegar. 

[Bowen 747]

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Perhaps, but we still don't know and can only speculate. Kevan Lannister and Maester Yandel don't seem too impressed with Lyanna's looks compared to the other women of her time. Maybe Lyanna had just as much of a horse face as Arya but Rhaegar was just super attracted to women with long horse faces. Also, Ashara Dayne might have had an thing for horsed face Ned and Ashara was almost as beautiful as Rhaegar. 

Rhaegar is a bit of an idiot.  I wouldn't use him to evaluate how Lyanna looked.  He may have had other reasons to give her the crown of roses.  Like maybe she was the knight of the laughing tree and Rhaegar found out.  The KotLT rode well and Rhaegar thought it deserved recognition and that was the only way he could honor it.  

[Bowen 747]

On 6/15/2018 at 2:13 PM, Pride of Driftmark said:

This is probably my favorite "what if" question of the whole lot of them, and it's the only one I spend any time thinking about. Would anyone take her seriously? When Missandei proclaimed all of her titles would people just laugh? Would Jorah Mormont still follow her? Would Barristan? 

I know ugly Targaryens aren't a thing, and this is obviously a stupid thought, but wouldn't it be a really interesting story if Daenerys was able to build up her whole following despite physical shortcomings? Sure, her gender is a significant barrier, and I hold a lot of respect for Daenerys as a person, but whenever I think of ways to make her more interesting, this always comes to mind.

Just a wild thought that will probably get me kicked off of this forum. 

Beauty can actually made it harder for some women to get respect in some areas.  The fact that Dany gets taken seriously when she wants to be taken seriously speaks to her leadership abilities.  She is also very good at manipulating her enemies into not taking her seriously.  

Her titles have nothing to do with her appearance.  She earned those titles.  She woke dragons from stone, thus she is the Mother of Dragons.  She is a khaleesi in her own right and rules a khalasar of her own.  She walked into the flames and back out again, Unburnt.  The slaves who owe their freedom to her called her Mhysa.  She would be all of those even without the beauty that the Targaryen women are known for.  

On 6/15/2018 at 7:31 PM, Mordred said:

What if Jon was smart?  What if Sansa had any sense?  What if Tyrion can slam dunk?  

Beauty is just one facet of the complicated character that is Daenerys Targaryen.  She is a natural leader and proven when she kept her weak khalasar together through the Red Waste.  Courage?  She has plenty.  She is very intelligent and proven when she consistently outmaneuvers her enemies.  She rescued 8 thousand plus unsullied from Kraznys Mo Naklos using the best strategy ever employed in the novels.   She wrote the book on The Art of War II.  Her beauty adds to the depth of her character and one of her personal traits that make her special.  It's a mistake to assume that people only respect Daenerys because of her beauty.   She is hero material right from the beginning.  She found a way to survive the Dothraki and win the affections of her horselord husband.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She rescued 8 thousand abused unsullied from their sadistic master.  This fourteen year old girl lent her strength to her people and got them across the desert.   She bested the warlocks of Qarth and outsmarted them in their own palace.   So when Missandei calls, " The Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men.  The Mother of Dragons.  Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea.  Breaker of Chains" those are titles clearly deserved.  

 

[Victor Newman]

10 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

Beauty can actually made it harder for some women to get respect in some areas.  The fact that Dany gets taken seriously when she wants to be taken seriously speaks to her leadership abilities.  She is also very good at manipulating her enemies into not taking her seriously.  

Her titles have nothing to do with her appearance.  She earned those titles.  She woke dragons from stone, thus she is the Mother of Dragons.  She is a khaleesi in her own right and rules a khalasar of her own.  She walked into the flames and back out again, Unburnt.  The slaves who owe their freedom to her called her Mhysa.  She would be all of those even without the beauty that the Targaryen women are known for.  

People associate authority with grey hair and wrinkles.  Dany's beauty and youth worked against her in the beginning.   An old lady like the Yellow Toad of Dorne has the advantage of age to instantly establish authority.  Dany was a kid who had to work very hard to earn the respect and the loyalty of her followers.   Her people follow her because she is deserving of their loyalty.  

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Her beauty is absolutely necessary to her early plot. Without that, you don't have *this* character developement. You even need another -credible- way to give her the dragons...  It would be another character of another book. It might be interesting to read about a girl like, say, Shireen get hold on such power, but it would not be the books that we've been reading.

[zandru]

As an aside, I think it's interesting that GRRM can write male heros/protagonists who are fat, who are old and toothless and bald, who are flat-out ugly, and who are even deformed. But as far as I can tell, nobody will put forth a female hero who isn't beautiful.

Look how Brienne ("the Beauty") is denigrated and made fun of by the other characters. Also, how GRRM delights in giving her a Clouseau-like mission to find Sansa, blundering across the Riverlands asking if anyone has seen her "young sister" who (big contrast!) has auburn hair, is much shorter and is actually beautiful. Brienne failing to notice Sandor Clegane even when the big guy throws a shovelful of dirt nearly in her face.

Daenerys is beautiful. Cersei is beautiful. So are Sansa, Margaery, Arya** (to those with wit to see beneath the dirt). Female heros have to be beautiful, otherwise they wouldn't be written.

-------

Have no idea where some folks get the idea of the Stark family having abnormally elongated faces. There are just a few references to Ned's and Arya's "long" faces. Just a few. Nothing freakish or extreme, except in the minds of some readers.
 

[ApostolinO]

On 6/17/2018 at 2:23 AM, Bullrout said:

Lyanna also had the long face but probably not to the excessive length of Arya's.  They can share the same family appearance without being identical twins.  A brother and sister can share the same facial shape but still look different.  The proportions can differ in eye shape.  Angle of the nose.  Arya horseface can share the long face of Lyana because it is a family thing of the Starks.  It's just that it doesn't mean they all look alike.

Long face isn't necessarily ugly and Arya could be actually quite pretty under the tomboy look and attitude.