What if Daenerys was Ugly?

[Lee-Sensei]

On 6/15/2018 at 12:13 PM, Pride of Driftmark said:

This is probably my favorite "what if" question of the whole lot of them, and it's the only one I spend any time thinking about. Would anyone take her seriously? When Missandei proclaimed all of her titles would people just laugh? Would Jorah Mormont still follow her? Would Barristan? 

I know ugly Targaryens aren't a thing, and this is obviously a stupid thought, but wouldn't it be a really interesting story if Daenerys was able to build up her whole following despite physical shortcomings? Sure, her gender is a significant barrier, and I hold a lot of respect for Daenerys as a person, but whenever I think of ways to make her more interesting, this always comes to mind.

Just a wild thought that will probably get me kicked off of this forum. 

Are there no ugly Targs?

[zandru]

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Are there no ugly Targs?

I'm pretty sure there are. In the Dance of the Dragons history, wasn't Rhaenyra described as fat and middle aged? Bryndan Rivers was an albino. Many of the dudes were disfigured in various ways by battle (including Bryndan). Given that sometimes horribly deformed Targaryen babies were born, it would stand to reason that not all Targaryens would be great looking.

[The Sunland Lord]

Maybe she would have been smarter and nicer. Who knows.

[manchester_babe]

If D!NY were real. She would be ugly. She'd have the habsburg jaw since her family tree was more of a family bush. 

But then again. I barley know anything about the incestuous dynasties. Like the Habsburgs and the Ptolemaics. 

here's a link to effects of incest;

Genetic Mutations From Incest.

[The Commentator]

On 6/15/2018 at 2:13 PM, Pride of Driftmark said:

This is probably my favorite "what if" question of the whole lot of them, and it's the only one I spend any time thinking about. Would anyone take her seriously? When Missandei proclaimed all of her titles would people just laugh? Would Jorah Mormont still follow her? Would Barristan? 

I know ugly Targaryens aren't a thing, and this is obviously a stupid thought, but wouldn't it be a really interesting story if Daenerys was able to build up her whole following despite physical shortcomings? Sure, her gender is a significant barrier, and I hold a lot of respect for Daenerys as a person, but whenever I think of ways to make her more interesting, this always comes to mind.

Just a wild thought that will probably get me kicked off of this forum. 

Then we have a different story because the main character's physical qualities will be different.  She will likely still rise to power if she has the same qualities of high intelligence, strong personality, ability to lead people, and compassion for the poor.  She may have to go about it differently but she was always meant to hatch dragons.  She was always meant to be brave and capable.

Every character who has had success in the story was given an advantage.  Barristan was certainly a gifted athlete in his youth and had the genes to grow tall.  Tyrion was born into the richest family and if he were not, he would have died at the Moon Door without Tywin's generous allowance.  Jon the bastard would not have gotten notice at the wall if he had not grown up privileged in Winterfell and gotten proper sword training.  Martin injects a dose of realism in the story and it follows good logic that the ones who get ahead had something working for them.  

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Every character who has had success in the story was given an advantage.

Brienne was tall and had the will and discipline to grow strong and skilled. (I know, I've seemed to diss her, but she's among my favorite characters.) Also, being the sole heir of a great House didn't hurt.

Gendry was apprenticed to one of the finest blacksmiths because his father was the king. Not that his father ever knew or cared.

Even Petyr Baelish was given a significant leg up by Lysa Tully-Arryn, who recommended him for various positions and facilitated his climb ... into her bed and eventually throwing her to her death. Nice guy.

Even Samwell Tarly, who in the beginning seemed at the bottom: heir from a Great House exiled to the wall for being fat and scholarly - but who was then given the chance to use his intelligence and knowledge in support of the Night's Watch and getting their support to become a maester.

Note that of all these, only Gendry was good looking.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 6/18/2018 at 9:38 AM, The Sunland Lord said:

Maybe she would have been smarter and nicer. Who knows.

To your mind, is she stupid and evil?

[The Sunland Lord]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

To your mind, is she stupid and evil?

She is not plainly stupid and evil. But she is ignorant, arrogant, and refuses to see the world as it is.

Although I wanted to say that if she was created as an ugly character, then maybe she would have been smarter and nicer than she is, since some characteristics must work for her. This way, she lacks rationality and responsibility. 

[Princess Daenerys]

On 6/15/2018 at 7:31 PM, Mordred said:

What if Jon was smart?  What if Sansa had any sense?  What if Tyrion can slam dunk?  

Beauty is just one facet of the complicated character that is Daenerys Targaryen.  She is a natural leader and proven when she kept her weak khalasar together through the Red Waste.  Courage?  She has plenty.  She is very intelligent and proven when she consistently outmaneuvers her enemies.  She rescued 8 thousand plus unsullied from Kraznys Mo Naklos using the best strategy ever employed in the novels.   She wrote the book on The Art of War II.  Her beauty adds to the depth of her character and one of her personal traits that make her special.  It's a mistake to assume that people only respect Daenerys because of her beauty.   She is hero material right from the beginning.  She found a way to survive the Dothraki and win the affections of her horselord husband.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She rescued 8 thousand abused unsullied from their sadistic master.  This fourteen year old girl lent her strength to her people and got them across the desert.   She bested the warlocks of Qarth and outsmarted them in their own palace.   So when Missandei calls, " The Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men.  The Mother of Dragons.  Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea.  Breaker of Chains" those are titles clearly deserved.  

 

Beauty is just one of the many tools at Daenerys' disposal.  Take that beauty away and Daenerys is still smarter than Jon and Sansa.  

She may come by the dragon eggs differently but she will get them and hatch them still.  She was originally suppose to find them but George changed the story a little.  

[Princess Daenerys]

On 6/18/2018 at 3:43 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Then we have a different story because the main character's physical qualities will be different.  She will likely still rise to power if she has the same qualities of high intelligence, strong personality, ability to lead people, and compassion for the poor.  She may have to go about it differently but she was always meant to hatch dragons.  She was always meant to be brave and capable.

Every character who has had success in the story was given an advantage.  Barristan was certainly a gifted athlete in his youth and had the genes to grow tall.  Tyrion was born into the richest family and if he were not, he would have died at the Moon Door without Tywin's generous allowance.  Jon the bastard would not have gotten notice at the wall if he had not grown up privileged in Winterfell and gotten proper sword training.  Martin injects a dose of realism in the story and it follows good logic that the ones who get ahead had something working for them.  

I think so as well.  The original outline called for Daenerys to find the eggs on her own.  They still hatched.  

Changing her physical appearance won't necessarily change the story.  She just won't have the title of Most Beautiful Woman in the World.  She still has the rest.  

[Walda]

I don't think Dany's looks make a huge difference.  Even if she was as ugly she would still be a princess. And even if she was ugly, she would have dragons. I don't think her beauty had anything to do with the sack of Astapor, the burning of the House of the Undying, the sieges of Meereen and Yunkai. So no, nobody would be laughing when Missandei proclaimed her titles, or at least, nobody that counts.

Looking at what people do for her:  I'm pretty sure Ser Willem would still carry her across the Narrow Sea, away from the long knives of Stannis and Robert. I'm pretty sure Viserys would still want to marry her (keeping the blood of the dragon pure matters more than looks, and as long as she looks more like him than anyone else, she will have a narcissistic appeal to Viserys.) Pretty sure, too, that King Robert would still want her dead.

Drogo - that is where it might make a difference, but maybe not. The marriage was arranged before he laid eyes on her, so there is that. As a Targaryen princess, she is a trophy, a rare gift, even if she is a minger. As long as she had sliver hair and purple eyes she would be exotic. I'm thinking, for the Dothraki, beauty probably consists of copper skin, an impenetrable stare from black almond eyes, long greasy hair, and the bow-legged swagger of a free woman with her own horse. It is entirely possible that Westerosi are kind of gross and funny-looking to them, and Daenarys and Viserys both look more freaky than beautiful, with their weird purple eyes and their funny accents.

Being able to ride a horse is a big plus for Dany, and her ability to pick up the language. It seems to me Drogo wasn't really invested in her at the start of their relationship (not until the day she got on top - then he was besotted). If she had continued the same, without Doreah's expertise, it probably wouldn't have been a big deal for him anyway. In Dothraki culture, men can rape any pretty slave girl they like, any woman whose defenders they can conquer. Powerful connections and good omens and ability to bear strong sons matter in a wife, but the Dothraki are not so big on monogamy, with some khals sharing their wives around, and the female dancers at weddings being grabbed and gang-banged like Lhazarene villagers. If Illyrio is right when he claims "the Dothraki mate like animals in their herds" it is difficult to imagine the khal would be obliged to have just one wife, or be monogamous in marriage except by his own choice. Khal Jommo has more than one wife. Admittedly, there are some surprising conflicts in their culture - like it is expected that men of the same khalasar will slaughter each other with arakhs at a wedding, but they are really thingy about taking out the arakh at Vaes Dothrak. 

Anyway, looking at the widows of former Khals in Vaes Dothrak, the taste in wives of Khals past seems to run to flinty eyes, wrinkled faces, shrivelled withered bodies, and sweaty oily saggy dugs. If it is normal for a Khal to take a bride about twenty years younger than him, and common also for a Khal to be challenged, and to know defeat in battle, and to hang around flyblown battle scenes with exposed wounds, palliated by mud plasters and milk of the poppy rather than proper hygene and antibiotics, it is quite surprising that the Dosh Khaleen has such a retirement home vibe. One would expect a number of young and middle aged crones in it as well as the ancients. But maybe the Dothraki usually find older women attractive, when they come to select queens. Or maybe what matters for Khaleesi is their ability to fortell the future when they are in the Dosh Khaleen. Targaryen women are famous for their sorcery and foretelling abilities throughout Westeros - it is how the Targaryens came to Westeros in the first place. So maybe Dany's magical potential trumps her freaky looks. Although, the Dothraki are not as into blood magic as the Targaryens. 

So yes, Drogo might have turned around and decided not to marry her if she was a real ugger, but given he had agreed to marry her sight unseen, I can't think her looks were his first consideration.

Jorah would probably be less inclined to sexually harass Dany if she were plain, but I don't think her looks had much to do with his decision to become Viserys' sworn sword - that decision was made by Viserys, when he first set eyes on Jorah. I'm thinking Jorah was at Drogo's manse that night because he had played a role as a broker between the Magisters of Pentos and the Dothraki hoard at their gate, that he was already in the pay of Illyrio, and of Viserys, and intended by both to become the sworn sword of Viserys just as it was they and not so much Viserys that arranged for Dany to be a bride for Khal Drogo. Viserys of course wanted an army of 40,000 Dothraki (which he never got), and a knight sworn to him (who turned on him within a half year), but a/ He was utterly incapable of getting these things without Illyrio and b/ These things seem more like sweeteners, offered after the arrangements have been made, to reconcile Viserys to them and convince him they were his own plans, when he would much rather have married Dany himself, and lived in Illyrio's villa. Jorah later uses the lure of a sellsword army to get Viserys drinking at the markets and drawing his blade in Vaes Dothrak, the poor chump.

I doubt Jorah came to serve Dany from love either. More likely, he wanted to put as much space as possible between himself and Illyrio after he had got Viserys killed at Vaes Dothrak. He would rather Asshai, the Red Waste and  Qarth, Astapor and Meereen, than returning to the Free Cities and Illyrio's sphere of influence. He claims he is protecting Dany, but it seems more likely to me that it is his own skin that is most protected by avoiding Illyrio and his help.  We find out from various sources (Tyrion, Quentyn, Victarion etc) that the overland route from Meereen to Volantis is beset with death traps, and most everyone prefers the comparative safety of the ocean to the Demon road. But Jorah would rather Dany burn her ships and lose he admiral, and take the Demon road, than get in touch with Illyrio and his armies. 

Maybe Jorah became smitten with love for Dany after her dragons hatched and he saw her tits, and he isn't the treacherous, underhand sleazeball he was when he met her. I don't know. I'm divided. I'm like 70%  sure he is still the slaver who sold his lieges and his wife into slavery. Maybe he was in Selhorys (is that pronounced 'sell whores?') because he is still the perfidious sell-sword cutting deals between his old mate Khal Pono, and his new contact, the slaver Triach Nyessos, both sworn enemies of Danerys Stormborn, the woman who unexpectedly destroyed the central sites of their trade.

Tyrion reads him as a sensitive, quixotic Florian full of courtly love for his Jonquil, but it seems to me that Jorah might just as easily be fantasising of the day when the brothel sex-slave on his lap is the real Daenerys, and he collects her earnings and her dragons all belong to him. Every time Dany fondly remembers her 'protective old bear', I feel like she has read him wrong. 

But then there is the 30% argument. When Jorah was exiled, he was destined to meet Dany's enemies whether he went north to the Dothraki sea, or South to Yunkai, or East to Qarth or West to the Free Cities and Westeros. We never see him cutting deals with Nyessos and Khal Pono, or learn exactly how he got to Selhorys or why. We do see him attempting to cut a deal with the Widow of the Waterfront, to get back to Dany. And she doesn't seem to be a fan of slavery, even if she was a Yunkai native. He identified Tyrion as a perfect gift for Dany, and his wedding gift to Dany was pretty much spot on, too. So maybe this is one of the things he does for love. Still, even in the unlikely event that it is love that draws him back to Meereen, it wasn't love of Dany that got him there.

My best guess is that when Jorah left Meereen he had nowhere to go but straight to the hinterland,if not with the overt support of Daario (whom I trust no more than him), then at least without hinderance from him. From there, he meets his old friend, now Khal, Jaquo, just beyond the Karzhi pass. Jaquo gives him a horse and has him as a scout/translator/assistant/hanger on much as Drogo did. From there  Jorah could cross the Dothraki Sea unmolested by the many, many hostile forces between Meereen and the Demon Road, and on it. Khal Pono's Khalasar is massing on the eastern bank of the Rhoyne, so Jorah might or might not have been helpful in brokering a deal between Khal Pono and the pirate/private armies of slavers (like Nyessos)  that are currently massing on the Rhoyne at Selhorys, just outside the gates of Volantis.

Maybe Jorah wants to get back to Meereen so he can fight heroically for his queen and prove his fealty in deeds of chivalry. Or maybe he needs to get back into Meereen before the war starts, if he wants to collect his reward. He could be wanting to hurry back to serve his Queen, or he could have identified that he would be more powerful as her betrayer if he was in the inner sanctum of her Kingsguard rather than the outer suburbs of Volantis. He did sell his smallfolk and his second wife into slavery, before being a slaver with the Dothraki, and I can't recall him ever treating a woman with respect, including the 'little fool', as he liked to call Dany. Widow of the Waterfront didn't have any time for him, because of that. Cersei is beautiful, but Varys isn't back in King's Landing ready to serve her for love. I find it hard to believe that the slaver in the sex-slave place is not a slaver still. Anyhow, so far, all the significant choices he has helped/made Dany make, have not been motivated by her beauty, except perhaps his kissing her.

Xaro, Quaithe, and Pyatt Pree were not drawn to Dany for her beauty but for her dragons. They heard she had dragons, they didn't go across the red waste on camels to see a pretty girl. They wouldn't have offered her their gifts and assistance if she hadn't had dragons.

Barristan is Dany's Lord Commander because she is the rightful Queen of Westeros, and he has sworn to serve the rightful monarch of Westeros for life. He didn't set off to find her because she was beautiful, and he isn't running Meereen now because of her beauty. I do think he has got a bit beyond his station, arresting the King and setting up a council of the loyal and the just to run Meereen. That doesn't seem to have a lot to do with protecting his Queen. Or her husband, or her reign, or her dragons, or anyone or thing that she holds dear. But he isn't doing it because his queen is beautiful.

Daario. We see him through Barry's pov, and Dany's. Dany in particular has no doubt that he is utterly intoxicated by her beauty. I don't know. Dany is, if anything, even less clear-sighted about the current leader of the Storm Crows than she is about Jorah. Daario is the first to tell her the house-slaves want to sell themselves to the Qartheen, and the first to offer to collect taxes for the city on them when they do. He is a fan of the fighting pits being reopened. He made a point of telling Dany that he has killed two of his own men for plotting theft (which they don't seem to have actually committed).  His whole philosophy seems to be “Kill them all and take their treasures.” Yet the area he was supposedly policing with great success is now overrun by enemy sellsword companies. And he is now a prisoner of the Yunkai.

It seems to me especially troubling that Groelo was beheaded by the Yunkai. If Jorah was to choose who was beheaded, it would make sense that the Admiral, the friend of Illyrio, was the first to go. But as it is, it is a bit puzzling that Hero is still alive (Redshirt if ever there was one). And that Daario is still alive, when he has boasted openly about bedding the queen and being her favourite. (eta: and betrayed the Yunkai, resulting in the sack of their city, of course.)One would think he is the person the Yunkai'i would want dead the most, and the one Hizdahr would least object to seeing the severed head of. I don't know why he is still alive, if he is just what he appears to be. He flatters Dany, but by his own admission, he has had more women than hot dinners, and each one seems to have meant no more to him than a hot dinner - just something to keep him warm tonight. When Dany didn't marry him, he started to get boorish and tedious.

Illyrio wasn't swayed by Dany's beauty, or at least, nothing a new bedslave couldn't cure. The slaves who are now free, and the ones in Volantis that long to be free, don't adore her because of her beauty. Quentyn's plan didn't stand or fall on her beauty. 

In fact, even reading the text as it stands, it is possible that Dany, like so many real-world Queens, isn't really such a looker.  In real life, the super-hot princesses are the commoners princes married, not the princesses of the blood.  But you wouldn't know that from the way people talked about them, or the portraits painted of them. Nobody called Queen Elizabeth the first a freckly ranga shortarse, but she almost certainly was.  No-one said Queen Victoria was a porkling that should put down her spoon from time to time, or offered a dowry of her weight in silver to overcome the disgust a man might feel in accepting her hand in marriage.

Illyrio, Jorah, and Daario all rhapsodise about her beauty, but I think Illyrio is the only one to do it with her back turned, and then it is something like 'fairer even than my second wife', only 'timid and furtive' as a thirteen year old. He flatters everyone always, anyway. Jorah uses her beauty as an excuse for his harassment, Daario uses it as an excuse for promoting himself to the command of the Second Sons. Viserys thinks her too skinny, and slouchy. Her husband would rather sleep with ex-bedslaves, actually.  There is room in the text to read her beauty as just the flattery people constantly dish out to royals in the hope of attracting royal favours. Quentyn and Barristan don't seem to be completely blown away by her looks the way Daario and Jorah claim to be. And it seems to me that Dany spends a great deal more of her time thinking fondly of Daario and Jorah than they do of her. Euron and Victarion are blown away by her beauty, but I don't think either of them have actually laid eyes on her. Being a princess with three dragons and 8000 unsullied, 10,000 freedmen, and a khalasar of Dothraki might make her hugely attractive to a certain kind of man, whether or not she had silver hair and purple eyes.

TL;DR Dany's beauty probably doesn't make a lot of difference to the plot. Her dragons and her blood do.

[Damsel in Distress]

I believe the story does not change much.  Dany would have had the dragons because that is what the plot called for.  She is the smartest and the strongest of the teenagers in the story after all.  She would have found a way to get what she wanted.  

On 6/21/2018 at 1:01 PM, Walda said:

TL;DR Dany's beauty probably doesn't make a lot of difference to the plot. Her dragons and her blood do.

True

On 6/21/2018 at 7:19 AM, Princess Daenerys said:

Beauty is just one of the many tools at Daenerys' disposal.  Take that beauty away and Daenerys is still smarter than Jon and Sansa.  

She may come by the dragon eggs differently but she will get them and hatch them still.  She was originally suppose to find them but George changed the story a little.  

She was supposed to find them while wandering around the east.  So yeah she would have dragon eggs.

 

[Springwatch]

• The two rivals for the title of 'most beautiful' are Dany and Cersei - who, arguably, are also the most destructive.
• The Targs are the most beautiful family - and also the most destructive.
• To Jorah, Lynesse was the most beautiful, and he destroyed himself for her.
• The younger and more beautiful (other) queen is more dangerous than Cersei.
• The Queen of Love and Beauty is the one men are willing to fight for, even die for.

If there's a pattern here, it's that beauty is a toxic substance, and why not? Beauty, like charm and charisma and even love - all these intoxicate the senses and befuddle the wits;  i.e. they can be weaponised.

The world divides into those who fall for beauty, and those who are immune. Not everyone falls for Dany's charms, but those who do load her with rich gifts (possibly including the dragon eggs) or fanatical support. That's why Dany is beautiful.

[Clegane'sPup]

I'm half joking and half serious.

If Dany was not beautiful, young and innocent Drogo would have refused the deal.  Dany was sold off to Drogo. If I remember correctly the deal was to get Drogo to participate in Viserys scheme to get an army to retake the IT.

Dany's power is the hatching of the dragons. Without the dragons Dany has nothing except a few loyal supporters.

Starting with my first read she read was a pawn. It seemed clear to me that after her trials and struggles that lead to the hatching of the dragons people in story are more interested in the dragons than Dany herself.

At this time, end of DwD, Dany has no true control of the dragons. People want her dragons. Some people want the dragons dead. Some for lack of a better word want to own a dragon.

Drogon while seemingly is sorta protective of Dany while she is on her walk about rarely pays attention to her commands. The other two have been been let loose and have taken up residence in separate hidey holes. Those two free range dragons are being fed on a regular basis at a regular site. Danger, danger, danger Will Robinson.

There has been a long wait for WoW and with that long wait comes much time for evaluation of the saga. Dany has Grey Worm and the Unsullied in her pocket. Barry and Jorah are loyal supporters. She has her young hand maids and a few blood riders.   The rest are sellswords.

Other than the above mentioned few all she has to win her throne are the horse size dragons. Without the dragonlets (someone else used that word and I liked it) Dany is powerless.

My penny worth and opinion. BUT a poster usually comes along and sweeps the cobwebs from my dusty memory. Which is a good thing.

 

 

 

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

• The two rivals for the title of 'most beautiful' are Dany and Cersei - who, arguably, are also the most destructive.
• The Targs are the most beautiful family - and also the most destructive.
• To Jorah, Lynesse was the most beautiful, and he destroyed himself for her.
• The younger and more beautiful (other) queen is more dangerous than Cersei.
• The Queen of Love and Beauty is the one men are willing to fight for, even die for.

If there's a pattern here, it's that beauty is a toxic substance, and why not? Beauty, like charm and charisma and even love - all these intoxicate the senses and befuddle the wits;  i.e. they can be weaponised.

The world divides into those who fall for beauty, and those who are immune. Not everyone falls for Dany's charms, but those who do load her with rich gifts (possibly including the dragon eggs) or fanatical support. That's why Dany is beautiful.

I agree.

It seems to be a part of the hidden dagger theme which is so prominent in the books. I'll add that Sansa is a hidden dagger in training and I don't doubt that it'll come up in Arya's arc as well now that she's growing out of her awkward phase.

One could place beauty along side the fool as those who tend to be underestimated but can be very dangerous.

 

[Darth Sidious]

On 6/16/2018 at 7:23 PM, Bullrout said:

I am in agreement.  Looks or lack thereof would not have stopped someone as driven and as smart as Daenerys Targaryen.  The mere fact that she is a Targaryen princess puts her ahead of the likes of Sansa and any other daughter of a lord.   She is Azor Ahai and she would have found a way to find and hatch dragon eggs.  

Lyanna also had the long face but probably not to the excessive length of Arya's.  They can share the same family appearance without being identical twins.  A brother and sister can share the same facial shape but still look different.  The proportions can differ in eye shape.  Angle of the nose.  Arya horseface can share the long face of Lyana because it is a family thing of the Starks.  It's just that it doesn't mean they all look alike.

Dany's best assets are her high intelligence and courage.  Those, together with being Targaryen, would carry her far along the road to taking back her Westeros.  Drogo wanted a trophy wife and no other woman could have equaled the scion from one of the ruling Dragonlords of Valyria and the sister and heir to the king of Westeros.  It was a good marriage match.  

 

On 6/16/2018 at 11:22 PM, Bowen 747 said:

Beauty can actually made it harder for some women to get respect in some areas.  The fact that Dany gets taken seriously when she wants to be taken seriously speaks to her leadership abilities.  She is also very good at manipulating her enemies into not taking her seriously.  

Her titles have nothing to do with her appearance.  She earned those titles.  She woke dragons from stone, thus she is the Mother of Dragons.  She is a khaleesi in her own right and rules a khalasar of her own.  She walked into the flames and back out again, Unburnt.  The slaves who owe their freedom to her called her Mhysa.  She would be all of those even without the beauty that the Targaryen women are known for.  

 

On 6/17/2018 at 10:12 AM, Soto Luzon said:

People associate authority with grey hair and wrinkles.  Dany's beauty and youth worked against her in the beginning.   An old lady like the Yellow Toad of Dorne has the advantage of age to instantly establish authority.  Dany was a kid who had to work very hard to earn the respect and the loyalty of her followers.   Her people follow her because she is deserving of their loyalty.  

 

She started out bullied by her brother and came out from under his shadow.  The turning point was the wedding when she rode the silver filly for the first time.  Only she needed was one little bit of daylight to reach greatness.  The potential for greatness was there from birth and Drogo's gift gave her the needed lift.  What followed is a hero's journey.  Mastering the filly was the start, followed by mastering Drogo himself.  

[Springwatch]

On toxic beauty: I've remembered another one. When LF praises Sansa's beauty, he says she has eyes that men will drown in. Doesn't sound too healthy.

But all this doesn't mean you have to be beautiful to be dangerous, just that the beautiful, shiny, charming people have an extra weapon, an unfair advantage - Cersei's inexhaustible purse is just one example.

13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I agree.

It seems to be a part of the hidden dagger theme which is so prominent in the books. I'll add that Sansa is a hidden dagger in training and I don't doubt that it'll come up in Arya's arc as well now that she's growing out of her awkward phase.

One could place beauty along side the fool as those who tend to be underestimated but can be very dangerous.

Mmm, yes. Dangerous children too. The weak turn out to be strong, it's another inversion...

[Lee-Sensei]

On 6/17/2018 at 1:27 PM, zandru said:

As an aside, I think it's interesting that GRRM can write male heros/protagonists who are fat, who are old and toothless and bald, who are flat-out ugly, and who are even deformed. But as far as I can tell, nobody will put forth a female hero who isn't beautiful.

Look how Brienne ("the Beauty") is denigrated and made fun of by the other characters. Also, how GRRM delights in giving her a Clouseau-like mission to find Sansa, blundering across the Riverlands asking if anyone has seen her "young sister" who (big contrast!) has auburn hair, is much shorter and is actually beautiful. Brienne failing to notice Sandor Clegane even when the big guy throws a shovelful of dirt nearly in her face.

Daenerys is beautiful. Cersei is beautiful. So are Sansa, Margaery, Arya** (to those with wit to see beneath the dirt). Female heros have to be beautiful, otherwise they wouldn't be written.

-------

Have no idea where some folks get the idea of the Stark family having abnormally elongated faces. There are just a few references to Ned's and Arya's "long" faces. Just a few. Nothing freakish or extreme, except in the minds of some readers.
 

Tyrion and Sam are both denigrated for their appearances too.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 6/15/2018 at 2:13 PM, Pride of Driftmark said:

This is probably my favorite "what if" question of the whole lot of them, and it's the only one I spend any time thinking about. Would anyone take her seriously? When Missandei proclaimed all of her titles would people just laugh? Would Jorah Mormont still follow her? Would Barristan? 

I know ugly Targaryens aren't a thing, and this is obviously a stupid thought, but wouldn't it be a really interesting story if Daenerys was able to build up her whole following despite physical shortcomings? Sure, her gender is a significant barrier, and I hold a lot of respect for Daenerys as a person, but whenever I think of ways to make her more interesting, this always comes to mind.

Just a wild thought that will probably get me kicked off of this forum. 

This series does not lack for ugly people with important roles.  It is just that some of people with important roles to play also happen to be beautiful.  I see nothing at all wrong with that.

On 6/15/2018 at 2:33 PM, Canon Claude said:

Well, it’s hard not to speculate on this when the only main female character who is portrayed as ugly is Brienne, and it’s such a talked-about part of her character that her apparent grotesqueness threatens to overshadow the rest of her character. I know a few people who’ve taken issue with it in their reading of GRRM’s books.

Insecurities of people rearing its ugly head?

On 6/15/2018 at 3:24 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

I have no doubt Daenerys would still find a way to be successful.  Darnerys is my favorite character and it has nothing to do with her breathtaking beauty.  She's smart, brave, and resourceful.  She was born to be great.

 

On 6/15/2018 at 7:31 PM, Mordred said:

What if Jon was smart?  What if Sansa had any sense?  What if Tyrion can slam dunk?  

Beauty is just one facet of the complicated character that is Daenerys Targaryen.  She is a natural leader and proven when she kept her weak khalasar together through the Red Waste.  Courage?  She has plenty.  She is very intelligent and proven when she consistently outmaneuvers her enemies.  She rescued 8 thousand plus unsullied from Kraznys Mo Naklos using the best strategy ever employed in the novels.   She wrote the book on The Art of War II.  Her beauty adds to the depth of her character and one of her personal traits that make her special.  It's a mistake to assume that people only respect Daenerys because of her beauty.   She is hero material right from the beginning.  She found a way to survive the Dothraki and win the affections of her horselord husband.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She rescued 8 thousand abused unsullied from their sadistic master.  This fourteen year old girl lent her strength to her people and got them across the desert.   She bested the warlocks of Qarth and outsmarted them in their own palace.   So when Missandei calls, " The Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men.  The Mother of Dragons.  Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea.  Breaker of Chains" those are titles clearly deserved.  

 

1. Daenerys is beautiful but what if she was ugly?  She may lose a few fans (I suppose many male fans) but she will also gain a few.  Dany has many steadfast and loyal fans though.  It may not matter much at all.   She has those qualities of superior intelligence and unassailable courage which would still give her better chances of success than most people even without the charm of beauty.
2. What if Jon was smart?  This "what if" can only change the story a little.  Instead of "knowing nothing" Jon becomes "knowing a little."  Jon is not smart but even if he were his decisions would not change because he made them emotionally.  He knew it was wrong to violate his oaths but he still made his decision to leave the watch to fight with Robb Stark.  Sam and classmates had to drag him back.  His plan to take and hide Arya away from Ramsay was wrong and still he chose to do it.  All emotional decisions.  A better question to pose is "what if Jon was less emotional and smarter?"
3. What if Sansa had any sense?  No change.  She's selfish and immature.  It's these two glaring character flaws rather than deficiency in brain cells that cause Sansa to fuck up repeatedly.  You do not need much common sense when you had Mordane taking care of you.  Maturity takes care of itself if she lives long enough.  The selfish part will always be there.
4. What if Tyrion can slam dunk?  Hot damn!  NBA draft here we come!   

[Katerine459]

Reading some of the responses on here, I wonder if people understand the point of what-ifs. The point, in a nutshell, is to give us a different perspective on the world we love, by forcing us to figure out exactly what would change if the metaphorical butterfly had been stepped on at a particular time.

When we first met Dany, she was a timid, frightened, but resilient child, living in fear of her brother's temper. Everything else that she became, she became AFTER she married Drogo, as a direct result of marrying Drogo and becoming Khaleesi. So in order for her to become the strong, fierce, protective woman, she must first marry Drogo. In order for Illyrio to have the reason to give her the dragon eggs in the first place, she needs to get married, to necessitate him giving her an extravagant gift like that. Otherwise, she just remains in an abusive, submissive relationship with Viserys, and never even sees the dragon eggs.

For that reason, it was vital for Dany to be beautiful. Unless @Walda is correct, and Drogo would have married her for her exotic appearance whether she was classically beautiful or not, but I... just have a hard time picturing that.