What if Daenerys was Ugly?

[Bernie Mac]

7 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

Reading some of the responses on here, I wonder if people understand the point of what-ifs. The point, in a nutshell, is to give us a different perspective on the world we love, by forcing us to figure out exactly what would change if the metaphorical butterfly had been stepped on at a particular time.

When we first met Dany, she was a timid, frightened, but resilient child, living in fear of her brother's temper. Everything else that she became, she became AFTER she married Drogo, as a direct result of marrying Drogo and becoming Khaleesi. So in order for her to become the strong, fierce, protective woman, she must first marry Drogo. In order for Illyrio to have the reason to give her the dragon eggs in the first place, she needs to get married, to necessitate him giving her an extravagant gift like that. Otherwise, she just remains in an abusive, submissive relationship with Viserys, and never even sees the dragon eggs.

For that reason, it was vital for Dany to be beautiful. Unless @Walda is correct, and Drogo would have married her for her exotic appearance whether she was classically beautiful or not, but I... just have a hard time picturing that.

Drogo did not marry her for her looks, he has likely raped many women as beautiful, if not more so than Dany and he didn't marry any of them.  He married her for her pedigree, for who her ancestors were. 

 

Her beauty was not her most valuable selling point. 

[Corvo the Crow]

20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Drogo did not marry her for her looks, he has likely raped many women as beautiful, if not more so than Dany and he didn't marry any of them.  He married her for her pedigree, for who her ancestors were. 

 

Her beauty was not her most valuable selling point. 

Agreed. Sole reason he married her was she was the last (known) Targaryen(Westerosi King) gal and also the last girl known to have come from a dragonlord family. Drogo was interested in rare things if I recall.

Also even if she were ugly, power is always attractive so even if Drogo didn't marry her, some noble  would arrange a marriage with at worst some distant kin. Or  wealthy merchant would marry her. They may not make good her claim in the first generation, but retain her claim with having some kids and refine their features for a generation or two and you have a perfect girl(or boy) to marry to an even more powerful noble and make good on her claim. Even better, don't make good on it but be vocal about it like Florents, and get better deals in trade, customs, etc. Possibilities are endless.

[Springwatch]

Turns out the beautiful men are just as destructive as the beautiful women.

The most beautiful are Jaime ('nuff said) and Renly (the handsomest man Sansa had ever set eyes upon) - and by extension, the young Robert that Renly resembles. Neither Baratheon had a strong claim to the throne, but lords and armies rallied round anyway to make war in their cause - perhaps more support than was rational at the time. Stannis says: "Those swords are sworn to Renly. They love my charming young brother, as they once loved Robert..."

Another young Robert clone is Edric Storm. Davos was willing to die for him after a few minutes conversation. The castellan of Storm's End had already died for him. Stannis puts this down to charm: "Did the boy charm you? He has that gift. He got it from his father, with the blood...."

Beauty and charm are near matching attributes, both leading ordinary people to sacrifice themselves to benefit these beautiful, charming young aristocrats. However well-meaning the beautiful ones are, the effect is more than a touch parasitic.  Dany fits this picture too.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 6/25/2018 at 8:29 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Drogo did not marry her for her looks, he has likely raped many women as beautiful, if not more so than Dany and he didn't marry any of them.  He married her for her pedigree, for who her ancestors were. 

 

Her beauty was not her most valuable selling point. 

The Dothraki may have a different idea of beautiful but there is no denying the royal bloodline of the Targaryens.  He would have married her for her ancient and famous bloodline.  

[hodorisfaclessman]

Who knows

Knowing she was plain the fat man may have settled for a less amvitious match up

Khal drogo may not have accepted her as he may have had other useful matches

Lord friendzone probably would maybe  have been less of a wet blanket about letting her get posioned 

Daario would probably have attempted to kill her as he and his merc buddies  planned 

[Faydra]

I think beauty is about bearing, which is something that she polishes when she's telling herself she's stormborn, blood of the dragon and similar things.

Lyanna pulled off her long face to the point of seducing the crown prince, the Hound has tons of fangirls, list goes on. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

While I can understand what Dany's fans are getting at when they insist that she's more than her appearance, so much of her character is tied into her beauty that it's impossible to ignore. GRRM isn't subtle with how attractive the Targaryens are supposed to be: the world book  is littered with descriptions of their fabulous hair, striking eyes, and lithe figures. Everyone from Cersei to JonCon is obsessed with how pretty Rhaegar was. The Targaryens' beauty is apparently so mind-blowing that families on Dragonstone thought it was an honor for one of them to shag their daughter/wife/sister on the off-chance that they would conceive a silver-haired bastard of their own. 

Daenerys is referred to as the "most beautiful woman in the world" frequently, to the point where people on the other side of the world pine for her. Much like how Daemon Blackfyre's appearance helped earn him support in place of his less attractive half-brother, Daeron, Daenerys' appearance improves her image as well. This is something that's well-documented in the real world as well: George Washington being 6'2" and broad-shouldered greatly attributed to his image as a leader and father-figure during the Revolution. JFK was famously aided by his young, attractive features in edging out Richard Nixon for the 1960 presidency. Younger, more attractive actresses frequently beat out their older competitors for roles despite having less experience. 

So while Daenerys would still have her dragons and her name even without her looks, she would certainly have a rougher time accomplishing what she has so far. Remember, Brienne is also wealthy and highborn, as well as strong, honorable, and kind, yet we've seen time and again how much more difficult things are for her due to her being unattractive. This isn't a coincidence. 

[Charles Calthrop]

On 6/15/2018 at 1:13 PM, Pride of Driftmark said:

This is probably my favorite "what if" question of the whole lot of them, and it's the only one I spend any time thinking about. Would anyone take her seriously? When Missandei proclaimed all of her titles would people just laugh? Would Jorah Mormont still follow her? Would Barristan? 

I know ugly Targaryens aren't a thing, and this is obviously a stupid thought, but wouldn't it be a really interesting story if Daenerys was able to build up her whole following despite physical shortcomings? Sure, her gender is a significant barrier, and I hold a lot of respect for Daenerys as a person, but whenever I think of ways to make her more interesting, this always comes to mind.

Just a wild thought that will probably get me kicked off of this forum. 

TL;DR: She takes a bit longer to get started without the wedding to Drogo, but spends less time in Slaver’s Bay with a marriage to Quentyn giving her a base and a local army in Westeros. Ultimately there’s some change in who advises her/ comprise her armies, but she’s got the Targ name and the Dragons to back it up, so her lack of beauty means... nothing.

I’m tempted to think that a ‘less pretty’ Dany that doesn’t have everything handed to her as a result of being pretty would be a more thoughtful, rational individual and ultimately a better ruler than canon Dany.  However, this ignores that 1) her childhood wasn’t an easy one where she was spoiled 2) I’m thinking through a modern lens; in her ‘time’/setting, her family name drove the legitimacy.  If she was just some pretty girl with Valyrian features, but sans family name, she’d just be a girl in the pleasure houses of lys.  Her beauty really doesn’t have that much to do with her ultimate path.

I do think this lengthens her arc - in that she’s probably not ‘traded for an army’ early on.  However Illyrio still does what it takes to get her and Viserys an army.  I think Viserys and Dany probably marry, and Viserys is a bit less harsh on her since he doesn’t lose her to someone else.  At the marriage, I think Illyria still gifts her the dragon eggs, which is the key thing. Viserys probably does nothing to give her that breath of fresh air/grow her independence, but he’s still crazy and ‘a pale shadow of a snake’ so ends up dying somehow.  I think Dany still gets the weird dragon egg obsession and comes to the conclusion about burning on Vis’ pyre (ironic), birthing the dragons.

Basically, she starts a bit later, with dragons and say, the Golden Company rather than the Dothraki.  I think the Dothraki, still under Drogo (who never fights his bloodriders for ‘foreign woman reforms’ to their ‘spoils’ practices) just get sidelined in the story.

Jorah informs on her initially (that’s why he joined), gets the pardon, and still decides to support her, after seeing that she’s a better candidate for the throne than Robert (who is the best friend of the man who exiled him to boot).  Jorah won’t fall in love with her, but I think substance does matter to him, as he seems to have an understanding of what’s important to the commons and the hardship the nobles place on them.  I even wonder if Jorah doesn’t fall in love with her over time - as ‘ugly Dany’ is the opposite of Lynesse - good and with substance, and not beautiful and shallow.

Barristan joins as his principles, reasons have nothing to do with Dany’s Iooks.  She still collects the unsullied in astapor, then on to yunkai.  Here’s the first major change as Dario doesn’t betray the captains of the second sons.  I think she still takes Yunkai, (I think the second sons are the weakest of her canon armies, and the GC are the better unit) but the GC and unsullied are a bit thinned out.  After that, Meereen happens largely the same.  Hizdahr would still marry her as his rationale never seemed to revolve around any attraction to her.

A canon divergence I could see is her more seriously considering marriage to Quentyn as 1) she needs more armies, whereas Hizdahr just gives her peace in Meereen, not an army 2) there’s not the looks gap, and she wouldn’t be as snobbish about that.  This might also get her moving to Westeros sooner/ or spending less time in Meereen.

With the slower start and faster ending, I think she therefore ends up in the same rough place in the plot in the same timeline, but perhaps a more rational, reasoned ruler than the sometimes mercurial one ‘pretty Dany’ is.

To sum up: 

Gains: Golden Company, Dorne (before even landing in Westeros), Quentyn

Misses: Drogo, Dothraki, Second Sons, Dario, A lot of Dothraki civilian deadweight

Status Quo: Dragons, Jorah, Barristan, Grey Worm, Unsullied

 

 

[zandru]

On 6/30/2018 at 8:00 AM, Faydra said:

Lyanna pulled off her long face to the point of seducing the crown prince, the Hound has tons of fangirls, list goes on. 

Undoubtedly true - but not one of them has ever met the man face to (yikes!) face, nor been cursed out by him or felt the back of his hand. I think it's important to distinguish between how things work out in the books v what readers may absorb. In Westeros, nobody likes the Hound and definitely no women fawn over him.

Too much has been made of the Stark family's tendency toward "long" faces. It merely describes what we Anglo-Saxons consider attractive.