Crownlands Makes No Sense

[Corvo the Crow]

As in title. Why did Aegon only took some small portion of the Riverlands and a small portion of the already small Stormlands but took no lands from the gigantic reach which already borders his domains? This move would not only increase his domains with very fertile and populous land, but it would also take some strength away from the mightiest kingdom in the south, and make it a less overmighty bannermen.

[John Suburbs]

The Iron Throne rules the entire continent, save Dorne, and collects lands and incomes from each former kingdom, so there is no real reason to carve out yet another kingdom. But the capital does need its own source of food and support, so they turn over a small portion of land to the crown.

[Morgana Lannister]

If he was really smart, or Jon Con was instead of concentrating on his own seat, they may have tried.  However Highgarden, Randall Tarly's lands etc are too close to the Crown politically even now and possibly too well protected.  Aegon is a wild card and, as such, his almost sole advantage is surprise.  Okay, I am no military tactian at all (I would be the worse for the job ever! lol) but there is no guarantee, depending on popular response from Lords and Commoners alike what he will do next, so he may do that yet, but doing it as his "inaugural move" would have probably ended in disaster for him, even before he had began and rally any allies in Westeros.  I know that Highgarden is not that well guarded right now etc but still... He cannot even prove his legitimacy... (if it exists at all).  He has to act with stealth not go for main castles or lands and test the waters.  I reckon he will succeed, for a time, because the plot commands it but he has himself no political experience and Jon Connington seems very stuck in his past and his love of Rhaegar to think very clearly.  I reckon they will win due to support caused by Cersei's inability to keep her own Crown.

Okay, he has the Golden Company who are very strong Blackfyre supporters and who possibly know more about Aegon than he knows himself lol but he is not match for Dany, if he does not win her favour.  I think Tyrion tried to test Aegon but also hoped for this move (although he was himself surprised).  I also think Varys is secretly supporting Dany not Aegon, unless plan B worked and Aegon and Dany married (which seems rather unlikely to me).  Plotwise I think George is using him to pave the way for Dany.  Aegon will benefit from the discontent of mainly commoners but also some Lords.  He seems to be more plot device than character or he will have some memorable traits a la Jon, Sam even, Bronn even, needless to say Tyrion...  he is just a blank page with a little bit of a tendency for tantrums and the book saying he has been trained to be a perfect prince but no deeds to prove that statement as yet, at all!  He is a wild card but a very bland one IMHO.  His mentor is running out of time (life-span while) and I am sure convinced he is Rhaegar's issue.  What is Jon Con going to do (and that would be hilarious) if he learnt that he (Jon Connington) was in fact conned and that Jon Snow is the real deal???  I don't think he will live long enough to find out and, I hope not, for his sake lol (Jon Connington's).  I may have read too much into this but I feel he was in love with Rhaegar and not just as a friend (although likely unilaterally) and he is projecting on "his son," but unless they find a miraculous cure he is running out of time, which may make him make real big mistakes... and yeah Aegon appears entitled and bossy but he will take his advice, lol he even took Tyrion's (who he didn't trust or certainly not fully) although Tyrion did make sense at the time lol

Going back to the main topic, I think engaging the Golden Company on a more obviouos, publisized and front attack against, say, Highgarden or Hornhill would have been suicidal on Aegon's part, especially without decent intelligence with (wherever way Varys may bear) there is no indication Aegon and Co have (that level of intelligence re possible local support).

Had Aegon had a realistic possibility there yes, he could cut off the food supply from Cersei and the capital for sure.  Now gaining the lands is the issue "me thinks."

[Chancho]

2 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

If he was really smart, or Jon Con was instead of concentrating on his own seat, they may have tried.  However Highgarden, Randall Tarly's lands etc are too close to the Crown politically even now and possibly too well protected.  Aegon is a wild card and, as such, his almost sole advantage is surprise.  Okay, I am no military tactian at all (I would be the worse for the job ever! lol) but there is no guarantee, depending on popular response from Lords and Commoners alike what he will do next, so he may do that yet, but doing it as his "inaugural move" would have probably ended in disaster for him, even before he had began and rally any allies in Westeros.  I know that Highgarden is not that well guarded right now etc but still... He cannot even prove his legitimacy... (if it exists at all).  He has to act with stealth not go for main castles or lands and test the waters.  I reckon he will succeed, for a time, because the plot commands it but he has himself no political experience and Jon Connington seems very stuck in his past and his love of Rhaegar to think very clearly.  I reckon they will win due to support caused by Cersei's inability to keep her own Crown.

Okay, he has the Golden Company who are very strong Blackfyre supporters and who possibly know more about Aegon than he knows himself lol but he is not match for Dany, if he does not win her favour.  I think Tyrion tried to test Aegon but also hoped for this move (although he was himself surprised).  I also think Varys is secretly supporting Dany not Aegon, unless plan B worked and Aegon and Dany married (which seems rather unlikely to me).  Plotwise I think George is using him to pave the way for Dany.  Aegon will benefit from the discontent of mainly commoners but also some Lords.  He seems to be more plot device than character or he will have some memorable traits a la Jon, Sam even, Bronn even, needless to say Tyrion...  he is just a blank page with a little bit of a tendency for tantrums and the book saying he has been trained to be a perfect prince but no deeds to prove that statement as yet, at all!  He is a wild card but a very bland one IMHO.  His mentor is running out of time (life-span while) and I am sure convinced he is Rhaegar's issue.  What is Jon Con going to do (and that would be hilarious) if he learnt that he (Jon Connington) was in fact conned and that Jon Snow is the real deal???  I don't think he will live long enough to find out and, I hope not, for his sake lol (Jon Connington's).  I may have read too much into this but I feel he was in love with Rhaegar and not just as a friend (although likely unilaterally) and he is projecting on "his son," but unless they find a miraculous cure he is running out of time, which may make him make real big mistakes... and yeah Aegon appears entitled and bossy but he will take his advice, lol he even took Tyrion's (who he didn't trust or certainly not fully) although Tyrion did make sense at the time lol

Going back to the main topic, I think engaging the Golden Company on a more obviouos, publisized and front attack against, say, Highgarden or Hornhill would have been suicidal on Aegon's part, especially without decent intelligence with (wherever way Varys may bear) there is no indication Aegon and Co have (that level of intelligence re possible local support).

Had Aegon had a realistic possibility there yes, he could cut off the food supply from Cersei and the capital for sure.  Now gaining the lands is the issue "me thinks."

I think he meant Aegon the First, anyway i suspect Aegon "the never bashed at the wall by the mountain" will have a lot of reach armies defecting to him, should be interesting Mace decision's in such chaotic times, everything has to go wrong for him for the purpose of Aegon and Euron lasting a little longer in the series. 

[FictionIsntReal]

5 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I also think Varys is secretly supporting Dany not Aegon, unless plan B worked and Aegon and Dany married (which seems rather unlikely to me).

Why would he need to lie to a dying Kevan Lannister about which candidate he supports?

[Jaak]

How much did Reach operate as a community regardless of the person occupying Highgarden?

On the Riverlands side, what made no sense to me was leaving Harrenhal in Riverlands. Qoherys was his own Valyrian master-at-arms.

Why make the command line King´s Landing-Riverrun-back to Harrenhal AND subordinate Qoherys to the new defector Tully? Just keeping Harrenhal demesne in Crownlands would have been the easy option.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

21 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As in title. Why did Aegon only took some small portion of the Riverlands and a small portion of the already small Stormlands but took no lands from the gigantic reach which already borders his domains? This move would not only increase his domains with very fertile and populous land, but it would also take some strength away from the mightiest kingdom in the south, and make it a less overmighty bannermen.

I am assuming you mean Aegon I, the conqueror.  He chose the Tyrells to rule the Reach on his behalf.  He took it on faith that a house he elevated to great house status would remain loyal forever.  This is basically Aegon delegating the management of the lands to his sworn noblemen.  The Tyrells manage the lands and the people who live off the lands on behalf of Aegon.   They take their cut and pay what is due the Targaryens in the form of taxes to the crown.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I actually agree with you a little. He should have carved out a small section of the Reach and added it to the Crownlands. Notice how King's Landing is always struggling to feed its populace during war? This would not have been as much of a problem if say up to Bitterbridge had been Crownlands territory. I think he could have, and should have done this. Really he left the Reach with a lot of influence and power as seen during the major conflicts since Aegon's Conquest (but perhaps most importantly during the War of Five Kings). 

[Bael's Bastard]

On 6/15/2018 at 4:49 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

As in title. Why did Aegon only took some small portion of the Riverlands and a small portion of the already small Stormlands but took no lands from the gigantic reach which already borders his domains? This move would not only increase his domains with very fertile and populous land, but it would also take some strength away from the mightiest kingdom in the south, and make it a less overmighty bannermen.

The kings/kingdom of the Reach were dead and gone, and the Tyrells, Tullys, and Baratheons all owed their elevation into high lords to Aegon and the Targaryens. 

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The kings/kingdom of the Reach were dead and gone, and the Tyrells, Tullys, and Baratheons all owed their elevation into high lords to Aegon and the Targaryens. 

Yes and he carved his land from Tully/Baratheon lands and not the much better Tyrell lands.

He could have also increased the land of his cadet house; Stormlands already own a portion of the Dornish Marches, he could've transferred the rest to Baratheons as well. Instead he carves out a portion of the second weakest kingdom that he granted to the cadet branch and the most decentralized kingdom but leaves the biggest kingdom intact.

He should've divided the Westerlands and Reach into at least two paramaountcys to weaken them.

[Bael's Bastard]

12 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yes and he carved his land from Tully/Baratheon lands and not the much better Tyrell lands.

He could have also increased the land of his cadet house; Stormlands already own a portion of the Dornish Marches, he could've transferred the rest to Baratheons as well. Instead he carves out a portion of the second weakest kingdom that he granted to the cadet branch and the most decentralized kingdom but leaves the biggest kingdom intact.

He should've divided the Westerlands and Reach into at least two paramaountcys to weaken them.

The centuries of dispute and occupation by Iron Kings and Storm Kings might have made it easier to justify carving out portions from those parts of the riverlands and storm lands. For the most part, he seems to have established the crownlands on most of the same lands Argilac had proposed to give him as a dowry, lands which had belonged to Harren.

[1000th Lord Commander]

It says in the WoIaF that a few of the lords present for Aegon's first coronation were sworn to Storm's End, but closer to Dragonstone politically. My guess is that this is what was taken into consideration when creating the Crownlands: Which houses have no strong ties to any particular region. To carve away a chunk of the Reach into the Crownlands would only upset the Tyrells and give Aegon disaffected and disinterested bannermen who would be more inclined to rebel later on.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 6/16/2018 at 3:43 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

Why would he need to lie to a dying Kevan Lannister about which candidate he supports?

because his birds may be listening... and reporting back to Illyrio, whose wealth Varys still needs (okay, I part from the assumption that Aegon is Illyrio's son, to be fair).

[Morgana Lannister]

On 6/16/2018 at 12:31 AM, Chancho said:

I think he meant Aegon the First, anyway i suspect Aegon "the never bashed at the wall by the mountain" will have a lot of reach armies defecting to him, should be interesting Mace decision's in such chaotic times, everything has to go wrong for him for the purpose of Aegon and Euron lasting a little longer in the series. 

Mace, Tarlys etc could be up for the taking, especially if the books go anywhere like the Sept in the show.  I am certain he will gain the throne, as Lord Varys knows and wishes for, because of general discontent what what came before him recently, no other reason.  I still reckon Varys is testing the waters for a Targ contestant but not that super "pefect prince" that mayhaps hasn't been given a chance but hasn't a clue.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 6/26/2018 at 11:06 AM, 1000th Lord Commander said:

It says in the WoIaF that a few of the lords present for Aegon's first coronation were sworn to Storm's End, but closer to Dragonstone politically. My guess is that this is what was taken into consideration when creating the Crownlands: Which houses have no strong ties to any particular region. To carve away a chunk of the Reach into the Crownlands would only upset the Tyrells and give Aegon disaffected and disinterested bannermen who would be more inclined to rebel later on.

interesting observation

[Morgana Lannister]

On 6/16/2018 at 3:43 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

Why would he need to lie to a dying Kevan Lannister about which candidate he supports?

because he is not lying to Kevan, he is lying to his own birds lol

[Morgana Lannister]

On 6/18/2018 at 4:43 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

The kings/kingdom of the Reach were dead and gone, and the Tyrells, Tullys, and Baratheons all owed their elevation into high lords to Aegon and the Targaryens. 

once upon a time...

[Morgana Lannister]

On 6/26/2018 at 11:06 AM, 1000th Lord Commander said:

It says in the WoIaF that a few of the lords present for Aegon's first coronation were sworn to Storm's End, but closer to Dragonstone politically. My guess is that this is what was taken into consideration when creating the Crownlands: Which houses have no strong ties to any particular region. To carve away a chunk of the Reach into the Crownlands would only upset the Tyrells and give Aegon disaffected and disinterested bannermen who would be more inclined to rebel later on.

that is certainly the key, win houses, not just territories.... and yes, the only hope he has is the discontent, and there are plenty of them but he has to use that card very carefully...

[Morgana Lannister]

Just now, Morgana Lannister said:

that is certainly the key, win houses, not just territories....

My personal prediction is that he is going to be drunk on glory from his taking of KL, which I am sure will happen, probably due to support of the small folk who are desperate and some equally desperate Lords, and that Jon Connington will fuel him more towards that sense of glory and make him a kinder version of Joffrey... just marginally.

To me there are too many references, with little characterisation (if any) to say that he is the "perfect prince" and this just rings bells within me... not good ones.  I don't expect him to be anything beyong what an average, inexperienced but very entitled teenager would be but I think he is likely to bloody his hands, just like the Lannisters did, with innocents.

Okay, probably wrong, only time will tell, but I think Varys has got it "under control" for his own ends of course (my suspicion is Varys is a Targ bastard and was cut for the king's blood... but could be far fetched).  In any event this kid is not going to end on the IT at the end of the series.  Hey, against people like Jon Snow, Dany, Tyrion, even Varys or LF, who we have loved or loved to hate from the beginning???  Would burn the books!   Why, because hey I have invested in interesting characters from the onset to have this bland piece of what??? I am sure he is a red herring that advances the plot but at snail pace...

[Morgana Lannister]

On 6/16/2018 at 12:31 AM, Chancho said:

I think he meant Aegon the First, anyway i suspect Aegon "the never bashed at the wall by the mountain" will have a lot of reach armies defecting to him, should be interesting Mace decision's in such chaotic times, everything has to go wrong for him for the purpose of Aegon and Euron lasting a little longer in the series. 

Oh, I think Euron is a different matter altogether and the real threat we are only perceiving in part and not connected with KL or any of it much...  His power is magic and he will become the god he wants to be, at what price???  I expect his full uprisal (Euron's by the end of TWOW), his death in the next...