US Politics: Sit Up Straight and Show Some Respect

[SweetPea]

1 hour ago, DMBouazizi said:

Dumbest question ever.  As for more worthwhile queries...

Gotta love how condescending you can be. But if it's so simple, maybe you can enlighten me. Two people cross the border with a one year old child. They claim the child is theirs. They don't have any papers. How do you determine they are not lying? 

3 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Ah yes mass conspiracy shit. With a basis of that these people do not care for their children and just sell them off to start. So dehumanize people and act you care for something when you do not.

What mass consipracy? Even the heavily left-leaning Snopes confirms this: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-obama-administration-children-human-traffickers/
You could also find a ton of other sources by a quick googling.

1 hour ago, Don Inigima said:

[citation needed]

See above.

1 hour ago, La Albearceleste said:

Source?

Also, let's follow this logic through. You're saying that it is preferable to lock unaccompanied children up in cages rather than risk returning them to traffickers. OK. But what do you want to happen to these kids next? 

Who am I dehumanizing and in what way? No idea what you're talking about. Also, I didn't say it's preferable to lock the unaccompanied children in cages rather than risk returning them to traffickers. This is entirely in your imagination, and I'd prefer if you stopped strawmanning me like that.

But to answer your question, if it were up to me, I wouldn't separate the children. I'd either deport or allow them together with their parents. I'd require substantial evidence that the asylum seekers are actually fleeing some danger though. There would still be a chance of child trafficking occuring, but overall, it's better than to risk ripping real families apart.

[mormont]

3 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Who am I dehumanizing and in what way? No idea what you're talking about.

Er... I wasn't talking about it, would be why. Never used that word. Was this addressed to someone else?

3 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Also, I didn't say it's preferable to lock the unaccompanied children in cages rather than risk returning them to traffickers. This is entirely in your imagination, and I'd prefer if you stopped strawmanning me like that.

Alternatively, your post was very unclear and this was a reasonable inference based on what you said.

3 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

But to answer your question, if it were up to me, I wouldn't separate the children. I'd either deport or allow them together with their parents. I'd require substantial evidence that the asylum seekers are actually fleeing some danger though. There would still be a chance of child trafficking occuring, but overall, it's better than to risk ripping real families apart.

OK, so your entire objection about trafficking was bogus? You're now saying that there's no way of telling, and that the kids should be allowed to accompany the people they came with. This is functionally no different than returning them to the person they came with, at least for the purposes of your trafficking objection. 

Also, you've ignored multiple requests for the source of your claim about trafficking under Obama. 

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Gotta love how condescending you can be. But if it's so simple, maybe you can enlighten me. Two people cross the border with a one year old child. They claim the child is theirs. They don't have any papers. How do you determine they are not lying? 

...Enlighten you about what?  How to determine whether a couple with an infant showing up seeking refuge is lying?  Well, first of all Dano, most Central Americans interested in trafficking infants aren't going to just show up at the US border asking for asylum only to be subjected to decades of scrutiny from the US federal government.  That's just bad trafficking work, man.  Second of all, shocking how you ignored the substantive part of my post comparing Obama to Trump.  Or, no, not shocking but expected, because it'd explode your dissonance. 

[SweetPea]

7 minutes ago, La Albearceleste said:

Er... I wasn't talking about it, would be why. Never used that word. Was this addressed to someone else?

Also, you've ignored multiple requests for the source of your claim about trafficking under Obama. 

Yeah, sorry, I mixed up the quotes. That was meant for @TheKitttenGuard

Here's one source: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/leader-human-trafficking-organization-sentenced-over-15-years-exploiting-guatemalan-migrants

3 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

...Enlighten you about what?  How to determine whether a couple with an infant showing up seeking refuge is lying?  Well, first of all Dano, most Central Americans interested in trafficking infants aren't going to just show up at the US border asking for asylum only to be subjected to decades of scrutiny from the US federal government.  That's just bad trafficking work, man.  Second of all, shocking how you ignored the substantive part of my post comparing Obama to Trump.  Or, no, not shocking but expected, because it'd explode your dissonance. 

The condescension just keeps growing.

If you read my post, I wasn't talking about people who show up at the border seeking asylum. 

[SweetPea]

20 minutes ago, La Albearceleste said:

OK, so your entire objection about trafficking was bogus? You're now saying that there's no way of telling, and that the kids should be allowed to accompany the people they came with. This is functionally no different than returning them to the person they came with, at least for the purposes of your trafficking objection. 

It's not bogus, I mentioned it as another issue that is worth considering. It wasn't meant as a justification of separating children, because I disagree with that. Sorry if that wasn't clear. And to further clarify, I think requiring substantial evidence that confirms the identity of asylum seekers and the dangers they are fleeing from, would greatly limit child trafficking.

[LongRider]

 Breastfeeding an infant is no longer an acceptable disguise for a human trafficker no more.   So impressive that Orange Asshole figuered that out.  

The black market for nursing infants from Guatemala must be YUGE!  But Orange Asshole knows and only he can fix it.  (He told us so)

[LongRider]

14 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

If you read my post, I wasn't talking about people who show up at the border seeking asylum. 

It's the people seeking asylum who are having their children stolen.  WTF do you think zero tolerance means?

[Martell Spy]

Hard to tell if this is incompetence or purposely fucked up. I am leaning toward the latter.

Trump Administration Still Has No Plan for Reuniting the Families It Separated

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/06/trump-admin-has-no-plan-for-reuniting-families-it-separated.html

 

Quote

 

Government officials said they gave parents a flier with a toll-free number for ORR when they were separated from their children, but Jodi Goodwin, an attorney in Harlingen, Texas, toldthe Washington Post that none of her clients received the paper. She’s been trying to reunite more than two dozen Central American mothers with their children, but has yet to locate a single child.

Megan McKenna, the senior director of communications for Kids in Need of Defense, said the phone number is “a black hole, as far as we can tell.” Parents have reported being put on hold for long periods of time — a huge problem for those who are still in detention center themselves, and have limited phone access. Lawyers said those who did get through found officials unwilling to tell them anything about their children.

 

 

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

The condescension just keeps growing.

If you read my post, I wasn't talking about people who show up at the border seeking asylum.

Oh, I read your post, and the condescension will only keep growing because, from your own link:

Quote

In July 2015, the U.S. Department of Justice indicted a ring of traffickers lead by Aroldo Castillo-Serrano and accused them of smuggling children into the United States. They were also accused of lying to Health and Human Services’ Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) by posing as relatives in order to gain custody of children in its care and use them for forced labor in Marion, a city north of Columbus. The federal indictment, filed in U.S. district court in Ohio accuses Castillo-Serrano and his conspirators of forcing the children to live in squalid trailers and work six or seven 12-hour days a week, using threats and physical violence as coercion.

That's literally all you got.  And they posed as relatives to gain custody.  This is entirely different from the desperate situations those of all ages are desperately running from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras.  You plainly don't get what the situation actually entails on the border, which is why I will continue to be as patronizing as possible.

16 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

I think requiring substantial evidence that confirms the identity of asylum seekers and the dangers they are fleeing from, would greatly limit child trafficking.

First, refugees commonly don't have means to "confirm" their identity - that's why they're refugees in the first place.  Second, the processes that are undertaken once asking for asylum is arduous to begin with.  Separating these people from their children is an iniquity that's reminiscent of the Nazis (or, ya know, America whenever it's feeling virulently anti-immigrant), and I think that's a comparison the rest of the board will tell you I don't take lightly.

[mormont]

31 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

 

Here's one source: 

Where? That is not a source. It does not provide statistical evidence, or even anecdotal evidence, for the claim of 'thousands' of instances of traffickers posing as relatives being apprehended at the border under Obama. 

23 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

It's not bogus, I mentioned it as another issue that is worth considering. It wasn't meant as a justification of separating children, because I disagree with that. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

It was very clear that you meant is as an objection to reunifying children with their parents. In that capacity, it absolutely does appear to be bogus, given your later remarks. If it wasn't meant as such, that doesn't change the fact that it is. 

23 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

And to further clarify, I think requiring substantial evidence that confirms the identity of asylum seekers and the dangers they are fleeing from, would greatly limit child trafficking.

I don't even know where to start with this. What makes you think this isn't already the case?

[LongRider]

Hmmmm, if true this could be interesting. 

Quote

Comedian Tom Arnold said Friday that he and President Trump's former, longtime personal lawyer are teaming up to "take down" the president.

Arnold tweeted a photo with Michael Cohen on Thursday with the caption, "I Love New York," which Cohen retweeted without comment.

Arnold then told NBC News that he met with Cohen as part of a show he is working on for Vice, in which he searches for incriminating videos of the president.

http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/393598-tom-arnold-cohen-and-i-are-teaming-up-to-take-trump-down?amp&__twitter_impression=true

[DMC]

Just now, LongRider said:

Hmmmm, if true this could be interesting.

Always been of the thought nothing Tom Arnold ever does could possibly be interesting.  Gonna stick to that one.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

41 minutes ago, LongRider said:

 Breastfeeding an infant is no longer an acceptable disguise for a human trafficker no more.   So impressive that Orange Asshole figuered that out.  

 

What do you expect? Infants child actors simply lack the quality training they had in the 1980s, even Coulter can see through it.

[DMC]

26 minutes ago, Notone said:

What do you expect? Infants child actors simply lack the quality training they had in the 1980s, even Coulter can see through it.

I reject the premise that Ann Coulter could possibly understand the intimacy of breastfeeding.

[Fragile Bird]

And here I thought the US was a world leader in DNA testing. Imagine my surprise to read Seeet Pea’s claim that there was no way to tell if people are related!

And remember past threads we’ve made about why people chose their Westeros name? Some people have a vile sense of humor, don’t they.

[TheKitttenGuard]

2 hours ago, SweetPea said:

What mass consipracy? Even the heavily left-leaning Snopes confirms this: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-obama-administration-children-human-traffickers/
You could also find a ton of other sources by a quick googling.

See above.

Who am I dehumanizing and in what way? No idea what you're talking about.

Actually aware of that story and it was horrible. It demonstrate how bad our immigration system is operating. It can be pointed out those people were already state side and not at the border with the children. Also a huge leap to use this to state we need to think most or all these children are part of smuggling. I also do not know how you figure it out when you do not know where you send or where them our without some record keeping that you flippantly dismissed.

It is dehumanizing for you want to state that these children parents do not care and willingly give them to human traffickers. Articles I have seen that people want to provide make sure to emphasis cases where the reason are very frivolous or selfish rea. It really is to state these people do not care so neither should you.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

13 hours ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

 

Resistance is futile. 

Oh really?!? A poster once asked what happens when Jace gets sicced upon herself.

 

Don’t make me do it!

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 hours ago, كالدب said:

Literally, no one knows. Once you separate the child from the parents and put the parents into the system (and the child into the unaccompanied minor system) there is massive chaos - and that's even in the best circumstance. They have no built-in way of tracking what child goes with what guardians right now, nor can they find out where said guardians are or reunite them easily. 

The former head of ICE under Obama mentioned that hundreds of these kids will likely not meet their parents again until after they are 18. 

I’ve seen several reports that say the phone numbers parents received to reunify with their parents lead to nowhere. This is likely going to be a humanitarian crisis that, as you say, won’t be completely resolved for a long time.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 hours ago, Relic said:

LOL. You people really twist yourselves into knots to try and justify this shit, don't you?

I got into it with a hardcore Trump supporting conservative Christian last night on Facebook. He was fervently defending the separation policy, and after I, along with others, had beaten him back into a corner, I finished him by citing a couple dozen biblical quotes about how you should treat strangers with love and respect.

I biblethumped a biblethumper!
I threw the book at him!!

I HAVE TEH POWER!!!

[Inigima]

2 hours ago, SweetPea said:

What mass consipracy? Even the heavily left-leaning Snopes confirms this: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-obama-administration-children-human-traffickers/
You could also find a ton of other sources by a quick googling.

See above.

Thanks. I'm not seeing support for "thousands of times" in here, but I do see that it happened. Certainly it's bad and I would support investigations to verify. I'm ot sure what such an investigation would look like. Hairy situation for sure.