Jaime, Joanna, and Cersei

[JaneSnow]

Looking back I can't help but wonder if the death of Jaime's mother at a young age may have had the effect of pushing him towards Cersei, seeing that she was now the only female in his life. I know they experimented sexually before her death, but that Joanna had found out and separated them, so of course after she died they would no longer be apart anymore but I'm thinking perhaps his affection towards Cersei is more than sisterly, or romantic. Like what if he also sees Cersei as a mother figure to some degree? Fucked up, yeah, but this is asoiaf so it's bound to be. 

Take for instance, his view on Joffrey. "The boy had been a squalling pink thing who demanded too much of Cersei's time, Cersei's love, and Cersei's breasts." He's jealous of the child like a kid would be jealous of a new sibling. 

During his fever dream when he is led below the rock he cries out to her, "Don't leave me here alone," and "Stay with me, stay!" When he later dreams of his mother at the end of AFFC, he first mistakes her for his sister, and even says the same thing he said to her in the sept during his vigil over Tywin. When his mother turns to leave, he thinks to her "Don't leave me," the same as he'd cried out to his sister.

Thoughts?

[Apoplexy]

Jaime and Cersei lived in a universe where monarchs married their siblings. So it's not completely unthinkable that they thought there was nothing wrong with that relationship. But Joanna's death likely made them more dependent on each other, which sort of explains Jaime's blind loyalty to Cersei.

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

Thoughts?

there were plenty of women in his life. siblings experiment sexually. it is well documented. 

[Kandrax]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

siblings experiment sexually. it is well documented. 

Are you speaking about real life sibling?

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Are you speaking about real life sibling?

yes

 

[Bernie Mac]

13 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

Looking back I can't help but wonder if the death of Jaime's mother at a young age may have had the effect of pushing him towards Cersei, seeing that she was now the only female in his life.

Casterly Rock is one of the biggest castles in Westeros, it houses more than just Tywin and his kids. There would be Kevan's wife Dorna Swyft, obviously Genna, Stafford's wife Myranda Lefford and likely many other female relatives or the wives of the minor nobility that take up the positions of Tywin's staff such as his steward, master of arms etc. 

on top of that they are richest house in the realm, they are going to have septa's, old nan equivalents, ladies in waiting. 

Jaime would have had plenty of women in his young life. 

13 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

 

I know they experimented sexually before her death, but that Joanna had found out and separated them,

she died when they were 9 and had already been separated, so whatever they did it was possibly not actual sexual in nature, but enough for Joanna to think it would be a possibility in the future. 

13 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

 

so of course after she died they would no longer be apart anymore but I'm thinking perhaps his affection towards Cersei is more than sisterly, or romantic. Like what if he also sees Cersei as a mother figure to some degree? Fucked up, yeah, but this is asoiaf so it's bound to be. 

Joanna dies when he is 9 and at the age of 11 he becomes the ward/squire of house crakehall. I kind of doubt he see's her as his mother. 

Apoplexy has it correct, they live in a society where some of the most celebrated people who lived in their world were in incestuous relationships, with all the songs celebrating such figures its easy to see why siblings may become attracted to each other.  

 

[LindsayLohan]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Casterly Rock is one of the biggest castles in Westeros, it houses more than just Tywin and his kids. There would be Kevan's wife Dorna Swyft, obviously Genna, Stafford's wife Myranda Lefford and likely many other female relatives or the wives of the minor nobility that take up the positions of Tywin's staff such as his steward, master of arms etc. 

on top of that they are richest house in the realm, they are going to have septa's, old nan equivalents, ladies in waiting. 

Jaime would have had plenty of women in his young life. 

she died when they were 9 and had already been separated, so whatever they did it was possibly not actual sexual in nature, but enough for Joanna to think it would be a possibility in the future. 

Joanna dies when he is 9 and at the age of 11 he becomes the ward/squire of house crakehall. I kind of doubt he see's her as his mother. 

Apoplexy has it correct, they live in a society where some of the most celebrated people who lived in their world were in incestuous relationships, with all the songs celebrating such figures its easy to see why siblings may become attracted to each other.  

 

Agreed.

Even Jaime and Cersei's parents were first cousins.  It's only the tiniest step to brother/sister.  Your king and queen are siblings, your parents are first cousins, boning your sister probably doesn't seem any manner of immoral or inappropriate.

[Victor Newman]

20 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

Looking back I can't help but wonder if the death of Jaime's mother at a young age may have had the effect of pushing him towards Cersei, seeing that she was now the only female in his life. I know they experimented sexually before her death, but that Joanna had found out and separated them, so of course after she died they would no longer be apart anymore but I'm thinking perhaps his affection towards Cersei is more than sisterly, or romantic. Like what if he also sees Cersei as a mother figure to some degree? Fucked up, yeah, but this is asoiaf so it's bound to be. 

Take for instance, his view on Joffrey. "The boy had been a squalling pink thing who demanded too much of Cersei's time, Cersei's love, and Cersei's breasts." He's jealous of the child like a kid would be jealous of a new sibling. 

During his fever dream when he is led below the rock he cries out to her, "Don't leave me here alone," and "Stay with me, stay!" When he later dreams of his mother at the end of AFFC, he first mistakes her for his sister, and even says the same thing he said to her in the sept during his vigil over Tywin. When his mother turns to leave, he thinks to her "Don't leave me," the same as he'd cried out to his sister.

Thoughts?

In my non-MD opinion, Jaime and Cersei suffer from narcissistic disorder.  They are both attracted to their own beauty and who could look better to Jaime than his sister who looks like him.  Maybe the Lannister's over the top pride in themselves contributed to this.  

17 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

there were plenty of women in his life. siblings experiment sexually. it is well documented. 

Absolutely.  I agree with you.  They grow out of it most of the time.  

18 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Jaime and Cersei lived in a universe where monarchs married their siblings. So it's not completely unthinkable that they thought there was nothing wrong with that relationship. But Joanna's death likely made them more dependent on each other, which sort of explains Jaime's blind loyalty to Cersei.

It's not the same thing.  The monarchs married their siblings because of necessity.  They needed to maintain purity to preserve the bond with their dragons.  The Targaryens who married were not attracted to each other but they did so in order to help the family preserve the dragon bond.   It also kept the Targaryen family at an appropriate distance from the people whom they ruled over.  

Jaime and Cersei just felt attracted to each other.  It's in people to like beauty.  Put two pretty young people together and the Westermarck effect not withstanding an attraction could develop.  

[Lollygag]

Tywin hated, hated, hated his weak father Tytos to such an extent that when he became head of the house himself, he distanced it from the Lann the Clever influences instead favoring the influences of his best friend Aerys’ house Targaryen. I suspect that this is why there’s so much Targ imagery around the Lannister kids: they were raised to be Targ-like rather than Lannister-like. All through the books, you see a sort of genetic superiority vibe from the Lannisters only found in the Targs.

So you raise kids with a heavy cultural Targ influence, you marry your own first cousin, you hype the superiority of your own bloodline over others, Cersei is extremely narcissistic, and Jaime is a follower. It’s easy to see how Cersei’s and Jaime’s relationship developed.

Incest is also used as a literary device to point out Game of Thrones, inward, backward, short-sighted, selfish and on… modes of thinking. Note that as Jaime begins to finally see the big picture, he turns away from Cersei. Anytime you see incest, incest overtones, or pseudo incest in the series, you’ll also find that the character doesn’t have their priorities in place.

But I do agree that Joanna dying likely had some degree of influence over Jaime. Both Jaime and Tyrion seem to look to Cersei for approval, Tyrion despite his simultaneous hatred of her. Jon had no true mother figure in his life despite being surrounded by women. No Osha turned up for him. Nor do Jaime, Tyrion or Cersei recall anyone who even came close to being a mother figure to any of them. Cersei never forgave Tyrion for killing Joanna and neither did Tywin. She looms large over the Lannisters despite her death.

 

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, Soto Luzon said:

 

It's not the same thing.  The monarchs married their siblings because of necessity.  They needed to maintain purity to preserve the bond with their dragons.  The Targaryens who married were not attracted to each other but they did so in order to help the family preserve the dragon bond.    

No, some clearly were attracted to each other. It was a mixture of both. 

By tradition, he was expected to wed only his older sister, Visenya; the inclusion of Rhaenys as a second wife was unusual, though not without precedent. It was said by some that Aegon wed Visenya out of duty and Rhaenys out of desire.

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Yet despite these rumors, observers at court could not fail to note that the king spent ten nights with Rhaenys for every night with Visenya.

Aegon was clearly attracted to Rhaenys

Prince Jaehaerys was of a more traditional bent, for from a very early age he had loved his sister Shaera and dreamed of wedding her in the old Targaryen fashion. Once aware of his desires, King Aegon and Queen Betha had done their best to separate the two, yet somehow distance only seemed to inflame the mutual passion of this prince and princess.

Jaehaerys II and Shaera clearly loved each other. 

She tried to smile bravely for him. "I love him, Father, I truly truly do, I love him as much as Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight

Sansa, born almost two centuries after Aemon and Naerys is aware of these two siblings romantic love for each other. 

They reconciled in time, but the Old King outlived his beloved queen, and in his last years it was said that the grief of their parting hung over his court like a pall.

Yet if Alysanne was Jaehaerys's great love, his greatest friend was Septon Barth.

 

Another marriage that would be celebrated amongst the realm.

 

Rhaenyra insisted she was in love with her uncle and pleaded with her father for leave to marry him. King Viserys would not hear of it,

 

Not siblings, but clearly incestous and seemingly love. 

 

The whole realm knew that the girl loved Daeron's bastard brother Daemon Blackfyre, and was loved by him in turn, but the king was wise enough to see that the good of thousands must come before the desires of two, even if those two were dear to him.

 

And according to song, even songs in Dorne, their love was celebrated. 

 

There will have been an awful lot of songs and stories told about various Targ's in incestuous relationships who loved each other and who's marriages/love would be celebrated. It would be easy to see why children being taught about the royal family would see glamour in these unions. 

 

Plus even the marriages more out of duty are hardly going to be referred as such to the general public, especially when they were still alive. the young Jaime and Cersei would be under the impression that Aerys II and Rhaella loved each other, the ugly truth about their marriage would be kept private till Jaime served as a member of their kingsguard. 

 

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Tywin hated, hated, hated his weak father Tytos to such an extent that when he became head of the house himself, he distanced it from the Lann the Clever influences

This is kind of a bizarre statement, Lann the Clever, like Bran the Builder, is a mythical figure thousands of years old. He would have little influence on how the modern day Lannisters lived. 

Tytos may have been ashamed of his father, but he very clearly was not ashamed of being a Lannister, there is zero evidence that he distanced himself from the idea of being House Lannister or their traditions

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

 

So you raise kids with a heavy cultural Targ influence, you marry your own first cousin, you hype the superiority of your own bloodline over others, 

You do realize nobility marrying cousins was pretty common in the majority of history, from classical to ancient, to medieval and even after the renaissance. Westeros was no different; 

• Ned's parents were cousins, the greatest Stark in the Targaryen age, Cregan, married a cousin and his two granddaughters married their uncles. 
• Jon Arryn married a cousin while his heir Denys Arryn was married to his cousin, Jon's niece. 
• the last ruling Whents were cousins
• Manderly wanted either him or his son to marry his cousin Lady Hornwood

 

Cousins marrying was pretty common, Tywin doing so would have little to do the Targ influence. 

[Lollygag]

@Bernie Mac

If you're going to disagree with what I say, please leave my words with which you disagree intact. Again, I won't respond further unless you revise your response to include the entirety of what I said. Context is important as the Out-of-Context quotes thread so nicely illustrates.

You're not even quoting complete sentences - ?????

[Bernie Mac]

1 minute ago, Lollygag said:

@Bernie Mac

If you're going to disagree with what I say, please leave my words with which you disagree intact. Again, I won't respond further unless you revise your response to include the entirety of what I said. Context is important as the Out-of-Context quotes thread so nicely illustrates.

It is ok, if you don't feel like responding I am perfectly okay with that. Just like it is your prerogative to not respond to posts you don't want to it is also other people's prerogative to not have to quote entire posts if they are only responding to a small part of it. 

 

[Darth Sidious]

I don't think we have to go through any complicated explanations.  Cersei and Jaime grew up and thought nobody else was good enough for them.  The presence of their little brother, and i mean little, probably got them focused on their own appearance.  Cersei can't make out in the back of a Chevrolet like a typical teenager.  Jaime doesn't really think very much.  Take people who thought they were better than everybody around them, take away the option to get casual sex, and they had each other.  So they grew closer and feelings developed.