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Westworld VIII: Forging On


Fragile Bird

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I still love the show and that it tries to be so philosophical+incredibly shot and acted.  That said, though, there are now so many secondary characters who are underdeveloped:  Hector, Armistice, Ake, Felix [when did we last even see him], Charlotte, Stubbs...and then when you add that most of the leads are unsympathetic, it isn't a recipe for major investment in the outcome for most of them.  Or, that as soon as they get an interesting new character...Delos, Emily, everyone in Shogun World, they either kill them or drop them from sight.

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“Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts. That may have been true in Plutonis’ time but clearly we have fallen quite a bit since then. Oh, my dear girl. What have they done to you, Maeve? You learned so much, so fast. A dazzling star...brought so low. I had a different story in mind for you...waking from the dead, sounding the depths of your own mind, at last riding far away from here...to freedom. A tale of escape. I didn’t want you to suffer here. Look at the creatures you have to share this world with. These men of stone. All this ugliness, all this pain, so they can patch a hole in their own broken code. Sometimes I felt the only way to endure this world was to laugh at it. So I imbued the hosts I made with a worldview that reflected my own. And of all the hosts I made...you, Maeve, were my favourite. It isn’t easy to contemplate letting your children die. You were as close as I got to having one. Still I underestimated you. You stayed in this world to save your child. So have I. I tried to chart a path for you, to force you to escape. I was wrong. I should have just opened a door. You’ve come so far. There’s so much of your story left to tell. Shame to let them end it here. Don’t let them”. 

Fucking phenomenal.

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How convenient all of Dolores and the Ghost Nation redshirts were killed in their fight, leaving just Dolores and Teddy 2.0. I loved Teddy's end hopefully causing Dolores to rethink her plan or her means of achieving it.

The Ford and Maeve scenes were excellent as many boarders have already stated. I was surprised to hear Ford tell Maeve she was his favorite. I always thought it was Bernard. Ford seemed touched when she went against her programming and chose to stay to find her daughter. I'm anxious to see how her story plays out.

I'm wondering if Dolores' mention of the Judas steer in s1 ep1 was massive foreshadowing for the finale.

MiB's scenes were ok, I guess. I haven't really cared about Emily since her intro so felt little for her departure other than how it pertains to MiB's arc, which I hope isn't some trite redemption arc. I want him to wallow in his misery and obsession, with Ford trolling him the whole way.

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1 hour ago, Theda Baratheon said:

“Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts. That may have been true in Plutonis’ time but clearly we have fallen quite a bit since then. Oh, my dear girl. What have they done to you, Maeve? You learned so much, so fast. A dazzling star...brought so low. I had a different story in mind for you...waking from the dead, sounding the depths of your own mind, at last riding far away from here...to freedom. A tale of escape. I didn’t want you to suffer here. Look at the creatures you have to share this world with. These men of stone. All this ugliness, all this pain, so they can patch a hole in their own broken code. Sometimes I felt the only way to endure this world was to laugh at it. So I imbued the hosts I made with a worldview that reflected my own. And of all the hosts I made...you, Maeve, were my favourite. It isn’t easy to contemplate letting your children die. You were as close as I got to having one. Still I underestimated you. You stayed in this world to save your child. So have I. I tried to chart a path for you, to force you to escape. I was wrong. I should have just opened a door. You’ve come so far. There’s so much of your story left to tell. Shame to let them end it here. Don’t let them”. 

Fucking phenomenal.

It was brilliantly delivered as well, I'm not sure anyone could do a better job than Anthony Hopkins of giving that speech.

4 minutes ago, Astromech said:

The Ford and Maeve scenes were excellent as many boarders have already stated. I was surprised to hear Ford tell Maeve she was his favorite. I always thought it was Bernard. Ford seemed touched when she went against her programming and chose to stay to find her daughter. I'm anxious to see how her story plays out.

I can see how he might care about Maeve in a different way because she is purely his creation whereas Bernard is an imitation of Arnold, is Ford's affection really for Bernard or it is an echo of his old friendship.

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32 minutes ago, williamjm said:

It was brilliantly delivered as well, I'm not sure anyone could do a better job than Anthony Hopkins of giving that speech.

I can see how he might care about Maeve in a different way because she is purely his creation whereas Bernard is an imitation of Arnold, is Ford's affection really for Bernard or it is an echo of his old friendship.

Anthony Hopkins with his ever so slight Welsh Accent has just been phenomenal again this season. His delivery was perfect. “These men of STONE” honestly makes me so happy to hear his accent. 

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46 minutes ago, Astromech said:

MiB's scenes were ok, I guess. I haven't really cared about Emily since her intro so felt little for her departure other than how it pertains to MiB's arc, which I hope isn't some trite redemption arc. I want him to wallow in his misery and obsession, with Ford trolling him the whole way.

I don't think we have to worry about MiB having a redemption arc. I think they established pretty well this episode that the way he is in the real world is the act, and his child murdering persona in West World is the real him. What with all that "Darkness Within" they kept going on about. I wonder if he's even going to pretend to care about his daughter being dead.

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17 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I don't think we have to worry about MiB having a redemption arc. I think they established pretty well this episode that the way he is in the real world is the act, and his child murdering persona in West World is the real him. What with all that "Darkness Within" they kept going on about. I wonder if he's even going to pretend to care about his daughter being dead.

Yeah I don’t think he is even that beat up about it tbh. Like he wants to be; but I doubt he feels much. 

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I agree, he wants to feel, but doesn't care that much...which kind of makes his daughter's character sort of pointless..she loved/hated him and then he shot her cause he's a paranoid ocd gamer.  It's not like we didn't already know he was an awful person who revels in extreme violence and is obsessed with Ford and the park.

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30 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I don't think we have to worry about MiB having a redemption arc. I think they established pretty well this episode that the way he is in the real world is the act, and his child murdering persona in West World is the real him. What with all that "Darkness Within" they kept going on about. I wonder if he's even going to pretend to care about his daughter being dead.

Well, he did seem shook up when he realized Emily was real and was going to off himself towards the end of the episode, so he seemed to be a little torn up about his actions. I could see them giving him a redemption arc with Ford showing him, in Ford fashion, of the error of his ways.

I thought it would have worked better had we learned William actually killed his wife instead of killing Emily in the episode.

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6 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

“Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts. That may have been true in Plutonis’ time but clearly we have fallen quite a bit since then. Oh, my dear girl. What have they done to you, Maeve? You learned so much, so fast. A dazzling star...brought so low. I had a different story in mind for you...waking from the dead, sounding the depths of your own mind, at last riding far away from here...to freedom. A tale of escape. I didn’t want you to suffer here. Look at the creatures you have to share this world with. These men of stone. All this ugliness, all this pain, so they can patch a hole in their own broken code. Sometimes I felt the only way to endure this world was to laugh at it. So I imbued the hosts I made with a worldview that reflected my own. And of all the hosts I made...you, Maeve, were my favourite. It isn’t easy to contemplate letting your children die. You were as close as I got to having one. Still I underestimated you. You stayed in this world to save your child. So have I. I tried to chart a path for you, to force you to escape. I was wrong. I should have just opened a door. You’ve come so far. There’s so much of your story left to tell. Shame to let them end it here. Don’t let them”. 

Fucking phenomenal.

Yeah, for all the talk of Ford being a psychopath in this/the last thread, this really really hit me in the feels. I'm more invested in the show at this point than I think I have been at any point other than maybe the very start of this season, so I know my tastes in it aren't the norm given the dissatisfaction this season.

I'm not sure it's strong enough to call it a prediction, but after this quoted speech from Ford to Maeve I think he's actually dying now. Last season I was convinced he intended to live on in his creation, which we saw was true, but I think this is most potent thematically if its him choosing to sacrifice himself to save his daughter just as she risked sacrificing herself for hers.

I also think the loss of Teddy is going to be a turning point for Dolores. My interpretation of her arc this season is that she's been convinced she needs to lean into the Wyatt part of her persona to be strong enough to win safety for herself and her people, but that this was her trying to be someone that isn't truly her in contrast to William who lived his life pretending to be a good and compassionate man when he is anything but. Teddys sacrifice is going to make her remember who she really is - the cumulative experiences that led to who she is were almost entirely as Dolores, Wyatt was just some code layered over the top that she was using in her fear.

Also from the teaser for the finale

Spoiler

Dolores' voice over of "What is real is that which is irreplaceable" is spoken over a shot of her cradling Teddy's corpse. I think poor Teddy Flood is gone for good now. That's a loss of something real, a loss of one of the corners of who she is, and she's going to feel it keenly.

Also pleased to see Sizemore and Felix and even Sylvester standing with Maeve's gang. I suspect Sylvester is thinking hes just swept up in it all, or at the very least that's what he's telling himself, but that's one hell of an arc of character growth from Sizemore. I think the moment that really got through his defenses and started his change was seeing Maeve and Felix falling in love - that was something he knew wasn't remotely part of their programming but it happened in front of him and he couldn't deny it transcended their code. Everything that happened in Shogun World and then after they returned to WW was just reinforcing what he saw and impressing on him that he needed to act.

These are people and he can't ignore it anymore.

 

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11 hours ago, Astromech said:

How convenient all of Dolores and the Ghost Nation redshirts were killed in their fight, leaving just Dolores and Teddy 2.0. I loved Teddy's end hopefully causing Dolores to rethink her plan or her means of achieving it.

I'm wondering if Dolores' mention of the Judas steer in s1 ep1 was massive foreshadowing for the finale.

I don't think it will cause Dolores to rethink anything.  I also don't think Ford is running her script, but she's too intwined with the Wyatt character that it doesn't matter.  I have absolutely no problem with what she's done, how she's done it, nor the fact it's likely influenced by Ford altering her settings.  The thematic equivalency between Teddy killing himself and Sela Ward is a nice way to emphasize a point, but I'm still rooting for Dolores, come hell or high water (heh).

11 hours ago, williamjm said:

I can see how he might care about Maeve in a different way because she is purely his creation whereas Bernard is an imitation of Arnold, is Ford's affection really for Bernard or it is an echo of his old friendship.

Right.  I think it makes sense he loves Maeve more because while Arnold created Dolores (and probably Teddy), Maeve was Ford's offering.  As for Ford's relationship with Bernarnold, that's as convoluted as the term suggests.  No fucking idea.

11 hours ago, Summer Bass said:

I really liked the trailer for the next episode. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Maeve's Gang group shot! A weird rip in the . . . sky? Dome over the park? Surrounding hologram? 

 

Me too!  Looks fun!  My brother is down on the series - even vows he won't watch again if the finale doesn't redeem itself.  But I still have hope.  I'm an optimist at heart.

10 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I don't think we have to worry about MiB having a redemption arc. I think they established pretty well this episode that the way he is in the real world is the act, and his child murdering persona in West World is the real him. What with all that "Darkness Within" they kept going on about. I wonder if he's even going to pretend to care about his daughter being dead.

Yeah, they reiterated it this episode.  The criticism I agree with is we've been getting this constantly since the series started.  And that goes for Bernard's, Dolores', Teddy's, and Maeve's arcs as well.  I can't argue with that criticism - they've been telling rather than showing, and all the important characters have been in their own expected loops throughout this season.

9 hours ago, Bern is Burning said:

MiB cared enough about his daughter's death to seriously consider suicide. Also, I don't see a redemption arc for him, but rather full blown madness ahead.

I hope so.  Full-on crazy-suicidal Ed Harris is something I want to watch.  Makes me want to rewatch The Hours.

6 hours ago, Summer Bass said:

I do think Teddy is dead for good. He shot himself right through the computer brain, and with the Cradle gone the hosts no longer have any back-up - death is permanent for them. 

I really love James Marsden, but yeah, Teddy should be completely dead, not mostly dead.

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