Westworld VIII: Forging On

[Cas Stark]

Westworld has a way of undercutting it's dramatic high points, but I think Teddy is probably dead dead.  

[Fragile Bird]

I think there’s a Cradle back-up at the Forge.

[HexMachina]

18 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

“Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts. That may have been true in Plutonis’ time but clearly we have fallen quite a bit since then. Oh, my dear girl. What have they done to you, Maeve? You learned so much, so fast. A dazzling star...brought so low. I had a different story in mind for you...waking from the dead, sounding the depths of your own mind, at last riding far away from here...to freedom. A tale of escape. I didn’t want you to suffer here. Look at the creatures you have to share this world with. These men of stone. All this ugliness, all this pain, so they can patch a hole in their own broken code. Sometimes I felt the only way to endure this world was to laugh at it. So I imbued the hosts I made with a worldview that reflected my own. And of all the hosts I made...you, Maeve, were my favourite. It isn’t easy to contemplate letting your children die. You were as close as I got to having one. Still I underestimated you. You stayed in this world to save your child. So have I. I tried to chart a path for you, to force you to escape. I was wrong. I should have just opened a door. You’ve come so far. There’s so much of your story left to tell. Shame to let them end it here. Don’t let them”. 

Fucking phenomenal.

Incredible scene. Hopkins is undeniable in his talent

11 hours ago, karaddin said:

Yeah, for all the talk of Ford being a psychopath in this/the last thread, this really really hit me in the feels. I'm more invested in the show at this point than I think I have been at any point other than maybe the very start of this season, so I know my tastes in it aren't the norm given the dissatisfaction this season.

I'm not sure it's strong enough to call it a prediction, but after this quoted speech from Ford to Maeve I think he's actually dying now. Last season I was convinced he intended to live on in his creation, which we saw was true, but I think this is most potent thematically if its him choosing to sacrifice himself to save his daughter just as she risked sacrificing herself for hers.

I also think the loss of Teddy is going to be a turning point for Dolores. My interpretation of her arc this season is that she's been convinced she needs to lean into the Wyatt part of her persona to be strong enough to win safety for herself and her people, but that this was her trying to be someone that isn't truly her in contrast to William who lived his life pretending to be a good and compassionate man when he is anything but. Teddys sacrifice is going to make her remember who she really is - the cumulative experiences that led to who she is were almost entirely as Dolores, Wyatt was just some code layered over the top that she was using in her fear.

Also from the teaser for the finale

  Hide contents

Dolores' voice over of "What is real is that which is irreplaceable" is spoken over a shot of her cradling Teddy's corpse. I think poor Teddy Flood is gone for good now. That's a loss of something real, a loss of one of the corners of who she is, and she's going to feel it keenly.

Also pleased to see Sizemore and Felix and even Sylvester standing with Maeve's gang. I suspect Sylvester is thinking hes just swept up in it all, or at the very least that's what he's telling himself, but that's one hell of an arc of character growth from Sizemore. I think the moment that really got through his defenses and started his change was seeing Maeve and Felix falling in love - that was something he knew wasn't remotely part of their programming but it happened in front of him and he couldn't deny it transcended their code. Everything that happened in Shogun World and then after they returned to WW was just reinforcing what he saw and impressing on him that he needed to act.

These are people and he can't ignore it anymore.

 

YOU mean Maeve and Hector? But yes, I agree. And I too love how Sizemore was utilised this season. I do love Felix and Sylvester too though (and no matter how serious their scenes their names will never not make me think of Loony Tunes. The bird/tweetie pie scene in season one didn’t help :lol: 

I hope Elsie stays alive. Inexplicably she and Stubbs are the two humans I root for government survive the most.

[Cas Stark]

The more I have thought about it, the less I like Juliet's suicide, not only did they tease so much of it, that nothing revealed was very surprising except maybe Emily's robust wish to lock up her mother, which isn't really meaningful in the scheme of things...but "Billy" finally gives her the answer, the answer and the proof that she isn't crazy, he's as bad or worse than she thought, now she's got his record...why then kill yourself?  Why not use it against him?  Why give up at this point?  I get it could be interpreted she was overwhelmed by his evilness, but the whole segment didn't work that well for me.

 

[Theda Baratheon]

12 hours ago, karaddin said:

Yeah, for all the talk of Ford being a psychopath in this/the last thread, this really really hit me in the feels. I'm more invested in the show at this point than I think I have been at any point other than maybe the very start of this season, so I know my tastes in it aren't the norm given the dissatisfaction this season.

I'm not sure it's strong enough to call it a prediction, but after this quoted speech from Ford to Maeve I think he's actually dying now. Last season I was convinced he intended to live on in his creation, which we saw was true, but I think this is most potent thematically if its him choosing to sacrifice himself to save his daughter just as she risked sacrificing herself for hers.

I also think the loss of Teddy is going to be a turning point for Dolores. My interpretation of her arc this season is that she's been convinced she needs to lean into the Wyatt part of her persona to be strong enough to win safety for herself and her people, but that this was her trying to be someone that isn't truly her in contrast to William who lived his life pretending to be a good and compassionate man when he is anything but. Teddys sacrifice is going to make her remember who she really is - the cumulative experiences that led to who she is were almost entirely as Dolores, Wyatt was just some code layered over the top that she was using in her fear.

Also from the teaser for the finale

  Reveal hidden contents

Dolores' voice over of "What is real is that which is irreplaceable" is spoken over a shot of her cradling Teddy's corpse. I think poor Teddy Flood is gone for good now. That's a loss of something real, a loss of one of the corners of who she is, and she's going to feel it keenly.

Also pleased to see Sizemore and Felix and even Sylvester standing with Maeve's gang. I suspect Sylvester is thinking hes just swept up in it all, or at the very least that's what he's telling himself, but that's one hell of an arc of character growth from Sizemore. I think the moment that really got through his defenses and started his change was seeing Maeve and Felix falling in love - that was something he knew wasn't remotely part of their programming but it happened in front of him and he couldn't deny it transcended their code. Everything that happened in Shogun World and then after they returned to WW was just reinforcing what he saw and impressing on him that he needed to act.

These are people and he can't ignore it anymore.

 

Yeah this speech completely made Ford’s character finally TRULY make total sense to me. 

I got so emotional during this scene; Ford never seemed so human - he’s not even this way with Arnold who he seems to harbour at least some resentment for at times and certainly he patronises him a lot. This scene with Maeve was total affection, admiration and respect. I loved that. It really, genuinely felt like a true father-daughter scene - and totally out of no where, too! - just from the strength of Ford’s acting and the powerful dialogue. It was excellent to have that directly after a ‘real’ father and daughter scene with a dying/dead daughter that didn’t even have a tenth of the emotional weight. 

I hope you’re right about Dolores. I’ve been thinking she’s been acting very much like William. 

[Theda Baratheon]

12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The more I have thought about it, the less I like Juliet's suicide, not only did they tease so much of it, that nothing revealed was very surprising except maybe Emily's robust wish to lock up her mother, which isn't really meaningful in the scheme of things...but "Billy" finally gives her the answer, the answer and the proof that she isn't crazy, he's as bad or worse than she thought, now she's got his record...why then kill yourself?  Why not use it against him?  Why give up at this point?  I get it could be interpreted she was overwhelmed by his evilness, but the whole segment didn't work that well for me.

 

I didn’t feel like that watching it but I see what you mean. Maybe she felt like he was this evil disease that hadn’t corrupted and ruined her family and after years of gaslighting and feeling crazy she’s just overwhelmed and desperate with how her life turned out. I dunno. 

[Theda Baratheon]

33 minutes ago, Helenas Musikautomat said:

Incredible scene. Hopkins is undeniable in his talent

YOU mean Maeve and Hector? But yes, I agree. And I too love how Sizemore was utilised this season. I do love Felix and Sylvester too though (and no matter how serious their scenes their names will never not make me think of Loony Tunes. The bird/tweetie pie scene in season one didn’t help

I hope Elsie stays alive. Inexplicably she and Stubbs are the two humans I root for government survive the most.

I love Elsie and Stubbs! They seemed like good reluctant buddies. Hope they see each other again. 

 

[Cas Stark]

4 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I didn’t feel like that watching it but I see what you mean. Maybe she felt like he was this evil disease that hadn’t corrupted and ruined her family and after years of gaslighting and feeling crazy she’s just overwhelmed and desperate with how her life turned out. I dunno. 

Yeah maybe, but like I said, it didn't work that well for me, she's hung on all these years, self medicating, and then she finally gets the answer and kills herself.  Also, the show just saps the drama out of so much.  Think how much more of an impact if we saw that whole scene cold, where the scene was answering the mystery of what happened to his wife, instead of, we already have 75% of the answer.  Same with Logan.  We know he kills himself, so anything he 'reveals' next week is reduced in impact.  Lastly, I'm not sure what missing piece Emily is talking about, she had the card on dad's activities...so what is missing here?  Maybe if she had confronted him not only about his actions but waved the card in his face and demanded to know if he gave this to Juliet shortly before she killed herself would have made sense...but then he will know she's not a robot.  So, everything is jumbled up and this year, the jumble is not a mystery to be unraveled but a jumble for the sake of jumbling things.  

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Why give up at this point?  I get it could be interpreted she was overwhelmed by his evilness, but the whole segment didn't work that well for me.

He admitted she was right and then she saw the proof.  Like Theda said, she felt trapped and was probably scared of him at that point.  It makes as much sense as most suicides.

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Also, the show just saps the drama out of so much.  Think how much more of an impact if we saw that whole scene cold, where the scene was answering the mystery of what happened to his wife, instead of, we already have 75% of the answer. 

Agreed.  Show not tell!

1 hour ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Yeah this speech completely made Ford’s character finally TRULY make total sense to me. 

Best voicemail ever.

[dbunting]

Probably not a lot more I can say that hasn't already been said. Better episode than most this year and loved hearing Ford talk to Maeve. I wasn't ready for her to go yet and now she seems invigorated.

One thing I expected to see on here today and I didn't, maybe because I am the only idiot that believes it. A while back when we learned of Delos in the Lazarus episode, I had said that I think it worked and that was why William went in and messed with him, that he sabotaged him with the drink. Well I saw something this episode that keeps me believing I was somewhat right. We saw in two scenes William digging at his right forearm, exactly where Bernard cut open in his own forearm to access his port. Is it possible that William is a host with his own "brain", not sure the right name for the computer rendered version. Yes we saw the scanner said he was human but we also know things can be faked especially when you are the boss(Bernard passed the dna scan). Maybe the whole "game" is that Ford moved Williams conscience there and he has to find it or risk dying for real? I know it doesn't track real well since he has aged but man it just seemed odd for him to keep digging at that exact spot. 

[Fragile Bird]

Lol, I’m rooting for the human race surviving. To write off billions of people on the planet and say it’s time for hosts to take over does not impress me, no matter how nobly Anthony Hopkins makes his speeches. I see hope in the humans aligning themselves with Maeve, and in people like Stubbs and Elsie. Elsie is afraid of Bernard, a bit, but she knows Bernard enough to believe she can trust him, even if she’s still scared.

And I meant to say, DMB, that many murderers aren’t psychos, so Theresa’s death, using Bernard, was horrid and evil, but no different that any other mob boss using a tool to do the dirty work. But programming hosts to want to kill all humans takes a psycho. Think of that poor tech, sent with the train to be blown to smithereens. That was brutal. And Ford taking the machine gun to mow down all the humans. Ford, don’t forget, thinks a host like Bernard is too weak to survive. I’m cheering for Ford. ETA lol, no, I’m cheering for Bernard! But I do love the Ford character, psycho or not.

I actually wonder if Teddy’s suicide will just harden Dolores and make her determined to see through her plan.

I wonder if we will eventually see a back story explaining Ford’s journey to hating mankind. There are many times I’ve been disgusted with my fellow humans, but wiping off all the people on the face of the earth is not something I’ve seriously considered. Philosophic discussions about whether or not the planet would be better off without us, of course. 

In fact, I understand I caused a shit storm in the US Politics thread (which I missed because I fell asleep and everything was deleted before I woke up) when I said younger generations are going to be faced with what to do about tens of millions of refugees as the oceans rise and the planet might not be able to support a billion or two or three excess people. Not, you know, eight or ten billion.

I’m more fond of the very human-like robots of Isaac Asimov who were built to help people get passed a dark age, shortening 10,000 years to 1,000 years, as he wrote in Foundation. Maybe Bernard and Maeve are headed that way.

[Cas Stark]

22 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Probably not a lot more I can say that hasn't already been said. Better episode than most this year and loved hearing Ford talk to Maeve. I wasn't ready for her to go yet and now she seems invigorated.

One thing I expected to see on here today and I didn't, maybe because I am the only idiot that believes it. A while back when we learned of Delos in the Lazarus episode, I had said that I think it worked and that was why William went in and messed with him, that he sabotaged him with the drink. Well I saw something this episode that keeps me believing I was somewhat right. We saw in two scenes William digging at his right forearm, exactly where Bernard cut open in his own forearm to access his port. Is it possible that William is a host with his own "brain", not sure the right name for the computer rendered version. Yes we saw the scanner said he was human but we also know things can be faked especially when you are the boss(Bernard passed the dna scan). Maybe the whole "game" is that Ford moved Williams conscience there and he has to find it or risk dying for real? I know it doesn't track real well since he has aged but man it just seemed odd for him to keep digging at that exact spot. 

He's paranoid.  And unhinged.  I think that's all there is to it.  We'll see that he dug into his arm and found out he's human, because if he's a host, what has been the whole point of his story?  

[DMC]

40 minutes ago, Casablanca Birdie said:

And I meant to say, DMB, that many murderers aren’t psychos, so Theresa’s death, using Bernard, was horrid and evil, but no different that any other mob boss using a tool to do the dirty work. But programming hosts to want to kill all humans takes a psycho. Think of that poor tech, sent with the train to be blown to smithereens. That was brutal. And Ford taking the machine gun to mow down all the humans. Ford, don’t forget, thinks a host like Bernard is too weak to survive. I’m cheering for Ford.

Well, let's take your mob boss analogy, because I agree that's basically how he's consistently acted throughout both seasons.  Why wouldn't a mob boss order a button man to take out Elsie because she's a significant threat, or tell his capo to "mow down" anybody in his way?  As for programming hosts to "kill all humans," I don't think we're entirely sure that's what he did.  He programmed them to figure that out for themselves, I think.  Which is why Maeve is choosing one path while Dolores/Wyatt is choosing another.  As for the tech blown to smithereens, that was Dolores.  

48 minutes ago, Casablanca Birdie said:

To write off billions of people on the planet and say it’s time for hosts to take over does not impress me, no matter how nobly Anthony Hopkins makes his speeches.

Again, we have yet to really see the outside world.  Who knows what type of -topia it is, let alone how many billions there are left?  Or if there are even billions left?

50 minutes ago, Casablanca Birdie said:

I wonder if we will eventually see a back story explaining Ford’s journey to hating mankind. There are many times I’ve been disgusted with my fellow humans, but wiping off all the people on the face of the earth is not something I’ve seriously considered. Philosophic discussions about whether or not the planet would be better off without us, of course. 

Right?!?  That'd be pretty fucking cool.  I actually assume this is being considered as a large part of Season 3.

52 minutes ago, Casablanca Birdie said:

In fact, I understand I caused a shit storm in the US Politics thread (which I missed because I fell asleep and everything was deleted before I woke up) when I said younger generations are going to be faced with what to do about tens of millions of refugees as the oceans rise and the planet might not be able to support a billion or two or three excess people. Not, you know, eight or ten billion.

Hm.  Must've missed that.  Sorry I did.

49 minutes ago, Casablanca Birdie said:

I actually wonder if Teddy’s suicide will just harden Dolores and make her determined to see through her plan.

That'd be my guess.

 

[RumHam]

17 hours ago, Summer Bass said:

I do think Teddy is dead for good. He shot himself right through the computer brain, and with the Cradle gone the hosts no longer have any back-up - death is permanent for them. 

Yup. Plus the actor has obviously already moved on to better things. 

[Fragile Bird]

1 minute ago, RumHam said:

Yup. Plus the actor has obviously already moved on to better things. 

Hahahahahaha!

[karaddin]

6 hours ago, Helenas Musikautomat said:

YOU mean Maeve and Hector?

 

Err. Yes. Yes I did. That was a misleading mistype lol.

[DMC]

Wow.  Yikes.  Marsden deserves so much better.  But he's always been fucked over, right?  When I think of X-men or even his character on 30 Rock, what happens to Marsden?  He's fucked over.

[Mark Antony]

5 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

Wow.  Yikes.  Marsden deserves so much better.  But he's always been fucked over, right?  When I think of X-men or even his character on 30 Rock, what happens to Marsden?  He's fucked over.

He’s in the new Tarantino movie. Once upon a time in Hollywood 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Marko Antonivic said:

He’s in the new Tarantino movie. Once upon a time in Hollywood 

Who isn't?

[williamjm]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

He's paranoid.  And unhinged.  I think that's all there is to it. 

Part of him might also want to find out that he is actually a host - if he was a host then he wouldn't really be responsible for his actions. That's also why he won't be a host, because it would make his whole character pointless.