Westworld VIII: Forging On

[RumHam]

Just now, chiKanery et al. said:

How do we know that? He did, after all, survive a ton of damage.

Because he cut his arm open and looked for the data port but didn't find one? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Because he cut his arm open and looked for the data port but didn't find one? 

Arg! So many details to keep track of and I haven't watched an episode with out a scotch in my hand. I blame you, Birdie! 

[RumHam]

4 minutes ago, chiKanery et al. said:

Arg! So many details to keep track of and I haven't watched an episode with out a scotch in my hand. I blame you, Birdie! 

Heh, same. It's kind of a bleak show sometimes you need the drink. 

Unless I totally misunderstood about Emily's time in the park (which is totally possible. Does anyone remember what episode that was maybe we could get a youtube link to the scene) I'm guessing her family trips extended into her early-mid teens and the last few years she hung out with the Ghost Nation to get away from her family? 

[Slurktan]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

I remember her telling her dad that on this visit she eventually realized she was old enough to go to the pleasure houses. 

She did, my read on it though is that she hadn't been to the Raj since she was a kid.  Not Westworld.  She seems way too familiar with Westworld for that (scene prior she spots the ambush before William for example).  She does say she hadn't been the to the park in ages though but does that mean 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Heh, same. It's kind of a bleak show sometimes you need the drink. 

Unless I totally misunderstood about Emily's time in the park (which is totally possible. Does anyone remember what episode that was maybe we could get a youtube link to the scene) I'm guessing her family trips extended into her early-mid teens and the last few years she hung out with the Ghost Nation to get away from her family? 

Maybe. How much can a kid do in that park, really?

[RumHam]

16 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

She did, my read on it though is that she hadn't been to the Raj since she was a kid.  Not Westworld.  She seems way too familiar with Westworld for that (scene prior she spots the ambush before William for example).  She does say she hadn't been the to the park in ages though but does that mean 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years?

Yeah, that could be and would make more sense as you said. She did seem quite comfortable in Westworld. 

[DMC]

1 hour ago, chiKanery et al. said:

Perhaps it’s to see if he can tell that he’s a host. One of the themes of the show appears to be Ford getting back at William, and wouldn’t that be the ultimate payback?

Her character is also billed as a seasoned guess. I think it’s pretty clear that she has frequented the park numerous times.  

Yes, it's pretty clear she's frequented the park numerous times once we see her with a digital map - otherwise known as the first instant she's introduced.

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Eh, how did she learn the Ghost Nation language if she hadn't been to the park a gazillion times as an adult where she could interact with them out on the far reaches?

Because she had been to the park "a gazillion" times.

1 hour ago, chiKanery et al. said:

How do we know that? He did, after all, survive a ton of damage.

What CS said. Plus she seemed really familiar with how the park works, and while she could have picked up some of that as a child, other things she was doing were fairly adult like. 

Again, remember how she was established.  I'm all for making fun of plot holes, but this isn't one of them.  They demonstrated her expertise of the park(s) from the get-go.

[karaddin]

Yeah, I don't think that one is meant to be unclear - she is well and truly familiar with how the park works, she's been here a ton. As the daughter of the big boss she probably gets the same "give them everything they ask for" treatment for free that her dad gets.

And I think a daughter doing what her Dad does a bunch, trying to understand what he's looking for before ultimately deciding he's looking for nothing and resenting it all is hard to understand.

[Leofric]

I thought she said or implied at one point that she spent a lot of time in the park trying to understand what drew her father, mostly in the fringes away from the tourists, which is why she knew the Ghost Nation language.  

[HexMachina]

8 hours ago, RumHam said:

My read of it was that William killed the real Emily, and that was a host recreation of her in the post credit scenes. Which would be sorta weird cause they would have had way more brain-scan data of William than of Emily, so why was she testing him for fidelity? Unless she was just a host made to look like Emily just to fuck with him. 

I wondered if this wasn’t more akin to the Logan and James Delos situation, with James always returning to the moment he told his son to GTFO. William revisitshis daughter and that time he murdered her, hence the’host’ in her image.

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, Helenas Musikautomat said:

I wondered if this wasn’t more akin to the Logan and James Delos situation, with James always returning to the moment he told his son to GTFO. William revisitshis daughter and that time he murdered her, hence the’host’ in her image.

That's my thinking.  Regret is the cornerstone.  For all of us - that's the point. 

https://youtu.be/wcsBvX10h74?t=181

[red snow]

I don't fully understand what I just watched but it sort of worked for me.

This could serve as a series finale and I'd be fine.if there is more, I hope they take their time with it. Maybe be a bit more straight forward and split the show between hostworld and whatever Delores Vs Bernard get up to in realworld.

Host world doesn't necessarily have to be chained to real time. So even if there's no way their data can last forever it could still be millennia compared to our 30-50 years. Like Narnia

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, red snow said:

This could serve as a series finale and I'd be fine

This is exactly how my brother feels, and I can't blame him.  It actually was a pretty satisfying finale on all accounts.

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, DMBouazizi said:

Again, remember how she was established.  I'm all for making fun of plot holes, but this isn't one of them.  They demonstrated her expertise of the park(s) from the get-go.

I wasn't making fun of plot holes, I just had a (I guess mistaken) impression that she hadn't been to any of the parks since she was a child. Really whether she had or not doesn't impact anything other than where they got the data to build the host version of her from. 

[SpaceChampion]

https://imgur.com/vHd2Sze

There! Are! Five! Lights!!....  I mean orbs!!!  5 orbs.

 

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, Triskjavikson said:

So maybe Dolores is going to be Magneto and Bernard is going to be Xavier?  Sometimes allies / sometimes enemies with different philosophies on the humans?

I could be (probably am) wrong, but I got the impression they'll be actively working together but opposing each other at the same time if that makes any sense? They both want to establish safety for their kind and a lot of the work that takes will be common between both approaches, Dolores just has (at this point) the goal of doing so by wiping humans out, Bernard wants to stop her from doing that particular thing and convince her that irrespective of whether they're hosts or humans, everyone is a person.

So not too far off what you're saying, just with much higher level of interaction and joint operations and at least initially no public proclamations to differentiate them.

@red snow I'm not sure if we'll actually get any view of host world from the inside. I think we'll continue to have perspectives inside the park from Stubbs, Felix and Sylvester, and the resurrected Maeve and her posse. Has there been any indication from Marsden if he's done on the show?

I also can't decide who I think Dolores had the control units for, or even if they were blank but required to build new hosts (ie Bernard + Dolores already takes 2 of them) or if they already had people inside of them. Angela was the only one of Dolores group that ever felt like she was in her confidence and trusted, but her self sacrifice felt like she was scared and it was final and bringing her back undercuts that - at the very least she wasn't expecting resurrection. Clem was never even really a part of Dolores group - that was the lobotomised version of Clem, who then got pared down even further and turned into Death incarnate. Maeve has more reason to bring her back than Dolores. Abernathy feels like Teddy - she's left the best part of herself behind in them, bringing them back wouldn't be real to her.

I'm actually wondering if she's taken some humans from the library? That actually makes more sense to me than any of the hosts we've seen.

[Cas Stark]

I was thinking Angela, and one was Bernard, so that leaves 2, doesn't it?  Probably not Teddy or her father.  Ford?  Humans would be interesting, but since they don't work in the real world...not sure how that would be.

[karaddin]

I thought the LoganSystem said that it solved the problem of making humans work - it had been trying to be too complicated, the algorithm needed to be simple. It's perhaps not the full version of that human, but I took each book as a person that could be put into a control unit and animated in a host. The more complicated versions (which Delos was, William presumably is and Ford apparently took of himself) still have issues, but the simplified ones I'm picturing wouldn't think they are human - they'd know they're a host and be explicitly on that side of things.

If we're assuming Bernard took a core, then ERW|Dolores took another of the cores as well - HostHale is still functional at the same time as ERW|Dolores after they wake Bernard back up. So if Angela is there as well that would leave only 1 core left.

[RumHam]

Wait, wouldn't Angela's core have been destroyed in the explosion that destroyed the cradle? Though I guess even though the forge wasn't meant for that purpose it did contain backups of all the hosts to use in the simulations. Plus guests memories of the hosts. 

[TheKitttenGuard]

Westworld really know how to end on high note for the second year. I agree with people that this will be great as a series finale as I thought the same for the first season finale. I kind of just go more with the story and do not want analysis too much until the season ends. 

I just want to state what I enjoyed for the season for now:

The best overall story for the season I give again to Maeve. Her journey for a daughter she most likely will not know her yet does everything to protect and sacriface for her. I do think Felix and Slyvester will bring her back but it will not cheapen it for me.

For single episode story, "Kiksuya" with Akecheta's journey of self awareness.  It may be the best episode of the series and it dealt solely on a tertiary character. 

I thought they handled Ford as well they could. He was never made a Host, was essentially program code, and then Bernard's own voice. 

Clemantine being a Pale faced rider on the Pale Horse.

Teddy's suicide showing he had more humanity than almost anyone.

Sizemore overall journey towards true empathy. I agree that I do not how needed his sacrifice but it was a good speech (though Hector would of done it better).

How they used Logan was great. He was significant in many ways though he was quite minor. Making him the representation of the main system was a nice touch.

Bernard's plan after his awakening was very well presented. This I have to revisit but in the episode I really enjoyed it.

I thought Shogun world was handled very nicely though I found more as a pleasant diversion.

The after credit scene shows what I thought William would of ended up as in the end. I do not think they show more to the character which is not good.  Yet going through murdering his daughter again and again will be a perfect hell.