Westworld VIII: Forging On

[karaddin]

Bernard putting it together in a mirror of Dolores in season1 was just perfect. It was already one of my favourite sequences in the show and it was well done.

[RumHam]

3 minutes ago, Triskjavikson said:

Do we know why the system appeared as Logan?  

Maybe because Delos was the first human it studied, and Logan was the most important person in his life. 

[DMC]

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

I wasn't making fun of plot holes, I just had a (I guess mistaken) impression that she hadn't been to any of the parks since she was a child. Really whether she had or not doesn't impact anything other than where they got the data to build the host version of her from. 

Yeah that wasn't directed at you at all.  And I agree it ultimately doesn't really matter.

3 hours ago, Triskjavikson said:

So maybe Dolores is going to be Magneto and Bernard is going to be Xavier?  Sometimes allies / sometimes enemies with different philosophies on the humans?

Sounds about right.  Except I think we'll also get Maeve into the mix, which should make it a more interesting multi-lateral affair.  Hopefully Ake eventually as well.

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I was thinking Angela, and one was Bernard, so that leaves 2, doesn't it?  Probably not Teddy or her father.  Ford?  Humans would be interesting, but since they don't work in the real world...not sure how that would be.

I think it's fair to count them up because they made a point of showing us how many, but who's to say one of those doesn't have data for multiple hosts?  In fact, isn't that the same type of super usb-drive that was used to signify all of the guest data from Abernathy?

39 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Bernard putting it together in a mirror of Dolores in season1 was just perfect. It was already one of my favourite sequences in the show and it was well done.

It was an outstanding callback that most I've talked still don't really remember even when prompted.

7 minutes ago, Triskjavikson said:

ETA:  Man, the internet is creepy.  The advert from Amazon to my left is now for a book called "Pale Horse" per your comment. 

The Man is about to Come Around.

[RumHam]

21 minutes ago, Triskjavikson said:

ETA:  Man, the internet is creepy.  The advert from Amazon to my left is now for a book called "Pale Horse" per your comment. 

If you haven't seen it yet Nolan's previous show Person of Interest was about the idea of an artificial intelligence watching basically everything. It's not nearly as well crafted as Westworld (I think it was on ABC, not HBO.) and it's at least half police procedural, especially early on. but it does present a more realistic version of how AI might take over the world. Worth watching. and it's clear Nolan loved Radiohead back then too.  One of the main guys does a weird version of the christian bale batman voice for all five seasons but you just learn to ignore it. 

 

[karaddin]

18 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

Sounds about right.  Except I think we'll also get Maeve into the mix, which should make it a more interesting multi-lateral affair.  Hopefully Ake eventually as well.

 

I think it's fair to count them up because they made a point of showing us how many, but who's to say one of those doesn't have data for multiple hosts?  In fact, isn't that the same type of super usb-drive that was used to signify all of the guest data from Abernathy?

It was an outstanding callback that most I've talked still don't really remember even when prompted.

The Man is about to Come Around.

Bolded - Good call, this conflicting ideas of how to proceed is going to feature 3 perspectives not 2.

The question about the cores (to my mind) is whether they can create more out in the world. If they can then that makes the data on the cores important, if they can't then it doesn't matter who is on them, they are limited to 5 total. The core that we saw Bernard take from the lab with Delos was being crafted by completely different machinery right? Perhaps the cores have mutliple identities on them and we'll see people swapping through who is currently animating the bodies, although that seems like its getting too close to the Doll House conceit rather than what Nolan is interested in exploring.

The thing I really love with the call back is that its even the same actors - Dolores hears Jeffrey Wright's voice transition into Hopkins before finally shifting into ERW, Bernard's conversation is still between JW and AH - but representing different characters in the two versions of that awakening.

[TheKitttenGuard]

41 minutes ago, Triskjavikson said:

Do we know why the system appeared as Logan?  

ETA:  Man, the internet is creepy.  The advert from Amazon to my left is now for a book called "Pale Horse" per your comment. 

The system stated that Delos always came back to his last meeting with Logan. Either Delos being the first human to be uploaded in the system Delos chose it to honor Logan or the system took the appearance of Delos's cornerstone. Since Logan will never be in the system it will be unique.

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, RumHam said:

If you haven't seen it yet Nolan's previous show Person of Interest was about the idea of an artificial intelligence watching basically everything.

I think it was on CBS, right?  My dad watched it - which is their old white demo - and I remember watching an episode with him.  I always meant to watch it in earnest particularly because the main character was Ben Linus if memory serves, but I can't get into procedurals.  Have way too much on my watch list before I get there.  Maybe if it was as ubiquitous as the Law and Orders.

13 minutes ago, karaddin said:

The question about the cores (to my mind) is whether they can create more out in the world. If they can then that makes the data on the cores important, if they can't then it doesn't matter who is on them, they are limited to 5 total. The core that we saw Bernard take from the lab with Delos was being crafted by completely different machinery right? Perhaps the cores have mutliple identities on them and we'll see people swapping through who is currently animating the bodies, although that seems like its getting too close to the Doll House conceit rather than what Nolan is interested in exploring.

Yeah I expect Joy/Nolan will use them in the sense that they can help Dolores/Hale/Bernard create more and more hosts.  Like I said, based on what they established with these magic balls as the Macguffin for the entire season, I think that'd be fine.  It's just transferring data at that point.  The hosts won, or at least survived thanks to Bernard, and I like it.

19 minutes ago, karaddin said:

The thing I really love with the call back is that its even the same actors - Dolores hears Jeffrey Wright's voice transition into Hopkins before finally shifting into ERW, Bernard's conversation is still between JW and AH - but representing different characters in the two versions of that awakening.

Didn't even think of that.  Awesome!

18 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

The system stated that Delos always came back to his last meeting with Logan. Either Delos being the first human to be uploaded in the system Delos chose it to honor Logan or the system took the appearance of Delos's cornerstone.

That's a pretty damn great explanation.  Nice.

[karaddin]

2 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

I think it was on CBS, right?  My dad watched it - which is their old white demo - and I remember watching an episode with him.  I always meant to watch it in earnest particularly because the main character was Ben Linus if memory serves, but I can't get into procedurals.  Have way too much on my watch list before I get there.  Maybe if it was as ubiquitous as the Law and Orders.

PoI actually turned into a fantastic show from a first season that I'd have never watched. Granted I came for the queer woman ship, but the episodes that were important to that happened to be the same ones that feed into the overarching plot - I think I watched like 4-6 episodes from the entire first season and less than half of the second, so you can definitely jump further into it like that. Season 3 onwards is pretty much worth watching in its entirety as the episodic stories start taking a back seat. Bonus points for young William turning up at times in it. Its the most I've cared about a character that is not depicted by an actor, that most of the interaction with is via text on a screen, and it was really fucking moving.

PoI is actually where I get my faith that the story WW is ultimately telling won't be a dreary misanthropic one. Dark at times? Clearly, but not without its hope for the future and belief in people. It also shows an interest in starting with a character who is pretty nasty, with reasons for being that way, and having them grow and not wind up as the villain but also not changing so completely they aren't who they were.

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Season 3 onwards is pretty much worth watching in its entirety as the episodic stories start taking a back seat. Bonus points for young William turning up at times in it. Its the most I've cared about a character that is not depicted by an actor, that most of the interaction with is via text on a screen, and it was really fucking moving.

Good to know, thanks.  I love me some Jimmi Simpson.  He guided the McPoyle family to greatness.

11 minutes ago, karaddin said:

PoI is actually where I get my faith that the story WW is ultimately telling won't be a dreary misanthropic one. Dark at times? Clearly, but not without its hope for the future and belief in people. It also shows an interest in starting with a character who is pretty nasty, with reasons for being that way, and having them grow and not wind up as the villain but also not changing so completely they aren't who they were.

I'm still trying to figure out how Jonah and Joy (his wife) will be substantively different from Jonah and his brother.  Thus far I don't really see the difference - they're obsessed with using time as a narrative device and are pretty bad in the expositional sense (see Ellen Page's Ariadne).  But I'm a dork about them.

[RumHam]

47 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

I think it was on CBS, right?  My dad watched it - which is their old white demo - and I remember watching an episode with him.  I always meant to watch it in earnest particularly because the main character was Ben Linus if memory serves, but I can't get into procedurals.  Have way too much on my watch list before I get there.  Maybe if it was as ubiquitous as the Law and Orders.

I actually once made the mistake of pitching it to my father as "like NCIS but actually good." He's never watched an episode. 

I understand it's not high on your to watch list. The only reason to bump it up is to the window if offers into how Nolan views AI. But at the same time we've got a while before  Westworld season three airs. 

I fucking hate procedural shows where the hero is some brilliant / preternaturally effective / but dark guy. And PoI is that. But it also manages to be a lot more starting around the third season. 

[karaddin]

15 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I actually once made the mistake of pitching it to my father as "like NCIS but actually good." He's never watched an episode. 

I understand it's not high on your to watch list. The only reason to bump it up is to the window if offers into how Nolan views AI. But at the same time we've got a while before  Westworld season three airs. 

I fucking hate procedural shows where the hero is some brilliant / preternaturally effective / but dark guy. And PoI is that. But it also manages to be a lot more starting around the third season. 

I'd only say "kinda". One guy is brilliant but dark, the other is preternaturally effective but he's not framed as an outlier for the people with the training/background he has. Oh and he's definitely got the "but dark". In both cases the character reasons for why they are that way wind up being sufficient for me to buy it, and yeah...everyone in it is dark, not just these two. I think one of the (secondary to the AI thing) themes of the show was heavily flawed people choosing to genuinely side with good without ceasing to be flawed. And I think it's done it in a way that's not morally ambiguous but also not lacking self awareness that I haven't seen done elsewhere.

[DMC]

26 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I actually once made the mistake of pitching it to my father as "like NCIS but actually good." He's never watched an episode. 

That's really fucking funny.  Deserves more than an "lol" - which I did.  Sounds exactly how my dad would react man.

29 minutes ago, RumHam said:

The only reason to bump it up is to the window if offers into how Nolan views AI.

That'd be my primary interest, yeah.

30 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I fucking hate procedural shows where the hero is some brilliant / preternaturally effective / but dark guy. And PoI is that. But it also manages to be a lot more starting around the third season. 

This is a bad sales job, but thanks for advice on just skipping to the third season.  If I ever get around to it, that's totally what I'll do.

11 minutes ago, karaddin said:

One guy is brilliant but dark, the other is preternaturally effective but he's not framed as an outlier for the people with the training/background he has.

Who's the second guy?  Mel Gibson's Jesus?

[karaddin]

Brilliant but dark guy = rich computer scientist, preternaturally effective = ex special forces soldier guy who speaks like batman that has been hired by rich computer scientist. That's stuff from the first episode so not spoilers, although soldier boys skill at violence isn't immediately apparent in its full breadth.

The show also features Amy Acker (aka Fred from Angel), Sarah Shahi (aka Carmen from The L Word which is probably less noteworthy here lol), Kevin Chapman (I don't even know this guys name but I'm sure he's played ambiguous or dirty cops in other stuff) and Enrico Colantoni (aka that guy who is in a ton of stuff and I really like including being Veronica Mars' Dad)

[Slurktan]

2 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Brilliant but dark guy = rich computer scientist, preternaturally effective = ex special forces soldier guy who speaks like batman that has been hired by rich computer scientist. That's stuff from the first episode so not spoilers, although soldier boys skill at violence isn't immediately apparent in its full breadth.

The show also features Amy Acker (aka Fred from Angel), Sarah Shahi (aka Carmen from The L Word which is probably less noteworthy here lol), Kevin Chapman (I don't even know this guys name but I'm sure he's played ambiguous or dirty cops in other stuff) and Enrico Colantoni (aka that guy who is in a ton of stuff and I really like including being Veronica Mars' Dad)

I only watched the first season of PoI and I took it as Nolan wanted to delve into what Lucius Fox threw away in Dark Knight Rises, turned Batman into just a fighter, turned Alfred into the Great Detective, turned Gordon into Taraji P. Henson, and made it a procedural.  I wasn't a fan.

[karaddin]

1 minute ago, Slurktan said:

I only watched the first season of PoI and I took it as Nolan wanted to delve into what Lucius Fox threw away in Dark Knight Rises, turned Batman into just a fighter, turned Alfred into the Great Detective, turned Gordon into Taraji P. Henson, and made it a procedural.  I wasn't a fan.

As I said above, I only watched a handful of episodes from the first season and even of those that became relevant later...I wasn't a fan. I have very little interest in the procedural side of the show but loved the long running story. If you don't even want to watch those handful of episodes from the first couple of seasons you could really just read summaries of a few things and jump straight to season 3.

[RumHam]

14 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Brilliant but dark guy = rich computer scientist, preternaturally effective = ex special forces soldier guy who speaks like batman that has been hired by rich computer scientist. That's stuff from the first episode so not spoilers, although soldier boys skill at violence isn't immediately apparent in its full breadth.

The show also features Amy Acker (aka Fred from Angel), Sarah Shahi (aka Carmen from The L Word which is probably less noteworthy here lol), Kevin Chapman (I don't even know this guys name but I'm sure he's played ambiguous or dirty cops in other stuff) and Enrico Colantoni (aka that guy who is in a ton of stuff and I really like including being Veronica Mars' Dad)

Let me be clear, I love that show. It really rises above it's "murder of the week premise." I just think Reese is like....bad and the actor should feel bad for that voice. But as I suggested I was able to move past it. The show got way better when Shaw joined the team.  

 

5 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

I only watched the first season of PoI and I took it as Nolan wanted to delve into what Lucius Fox threw away in Dark Knight Rises, turned Batman into just a fighter, turned Alfred into the Great Detective, turned Gordon into Taraji P. Henson, and made it a procedural.  I wasn't a fan.

You're not wrong but by the end of season one it had some actual interesting plot threads, by season three it was great with the occasional on off "why is this person being targeted" thing. I don't want to give anything away but I actively hated the first season and stuck it out because I think it was @Rhom told me it got good. and it really does. 

[karaddin]

1 minute ago, RumHam said:

Let me be clear, I love that show. It really rises above it's "murder of the week premise." I just think Reese is like....bad and the actor should feel bad for that voice. But as I suggested I was able to move past it. The show got way better when Shaw joined the team.  

 

You're not wrong but by the end of season one it had some actual interesting plot threads, by season three it was great with the occasional on off "why is this person being targeted" thing. I don't want to give anything away but I actively hated the first season and stuck it out because I think it was @Rhom told me it got good. and it really does. 

Everything you just said is right.

[red snow]

9 hours ago, DMBouazizi said:

This is exactly how my brother feels, and I can't blame him.  It actually was a pretty satisfying finale on all accounts.

A lot of hosts get happy endings and I'm guessing Bernard gets his son and Delores gets to indulge in her mad missions of world domination/human eradication. It feels like more seasons just means more misery which is a fate most shows face. But where it ended was relatively good. If we assume maeve was repaired along with her posse.

I do like the idea mentioned above that Delores may have broke out human minds. 

Part of me would like to see Logan back, partly because the actor is fun and partly because the weird matrix version of him was interesting. Not sure if they could get away with him walking around in his old body but it appears Bernard is so why not

[HexMachina]

8 hours ago, RumHam said:

I wasn't making fun of plot holes, I just had a (I guess mistaken) impression that she hadn't been to any of the parks since she was a child. Really whether she had or not doesn't impact anything other than where they got the data to build the host version of her from. 

Are you questioning the nature of your reality?

8 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

https://imgur.com/vHd2Sze

There! Are! Five! Lights!!....  I mean orbs!!!  5 orbs.

 

Finding it difficult to decide which five hosts it could be, but like the speculation here that it’s large packets of host data rather than just five individuals. Who Hale is though, from the way Joy has spoke in interviews and BTS videos seems like that will be an important reveal next season. Clearly it’s someone Dolores trusts enough to be her lieutenant 

7 hours ago, karaddin said:

I could be (probably am) wrong, but I got the impression they'll be actively working together but opposing each other at the same time if that makes any sense? They both want to establish safety for their kind and a lot of the work that takes will be common between both approaches, Dolores just has (at this point) the goal of doing so by wiping humans out, Bernard wants to stop her from doing that particular thing and convince her that irrespective of whether they're hosts or humans, everyone is a person.

So not too far off what you're saying, just with much higher level of interaction and joint operations and at least initially no public proclamations to differentiate them.

@red snow I'm not sure if we'll actually get any view of host world from the inside. I think we'll continue to have perspectives inside the park from Stubbs, Felix and Sylvester, and the resurrected Maeve and her posse. Has there been any indication from Marsden if he's done on the show?

I also can't decide who I think Dolores had the control units for, or even if they were blank but required to build new hosts (ie Bernard + Dolores already takes 2 of them) or if they already had people inside of them. Angela was the only one of Dolores group that ever felt like she was in her confidence and trusted, but her self sacrifice felt like she was scared and it was final and bringing her back undercuts that - at the very least she wasn't expecting resurrection. Clem was never even really a part of Dolores group - that was the lobotomised version of Clem, who then got pared down even further and turned into Death incarnate. Maeve has more reason to bring her back than Dolores. Abernathy feels like Teddy - she's left the best part of herself behind in them, bringing them back wouldn't be real to her.

I'm actually wondering if she's taken some humans from the library? That actually makes more sense to me than any of the hosts we've seen.

I think that the way the Sublime has been done, there is little to no chance it gets revisited. It’s supposed to be final, the Afterlife, Paradise for the Hosts. Returning to it again kind of spoils the finality imo.

Clementine as Death was my absolute favourite imagery of the episode. And the scene where she rides through the Hosts, total empty expression, with the music playing, leaving chaos in her wake...gave me chills. 

Moving on to acting, ERW, Thandie Newton, Anthony Hopkins and Jeffrey Wright were rightly praised, both this season and last. But this season and thins episode in particular I thought Tessa Thompson was terrific and hats off to her. In one of the BTS videos she talk she about collaborating with ERW to pick up on some mannerisms and actions and it’s really fun going back and picking up on these.

ERW and Jeffrey Wright were brilliant in the scene leading up to her being killed 

[DMC]

So in rewatching this episode I took notes and thought I'd share, or write them up for my own amusement.  Either way here it is.

20:20 - Strand tells techs to re-configure the satellite as Halores looks on ominously.  Clear foreshadowing in retrospect.

36:20 - Dolores speaks of the "4 million souls" Delos has been cultivating.  So we get some numbers - and also it's demonstrated that Dolores has access to the algorithms and has a pretty shitty opinion of humanity thereof.

40:30 - "Logan" tells Bernard the left the hosts a way out.  Logan describes it as "a virtual Eden, all that remains is to build a door."  Obviously we see this concurrently, but it's informative to know that was the thought process.  Ake wasn't wrong, but rather more right than he could ever imagine.

44:30 - Deloros rejects any world that isn't reality.  Bernard ask why and her response - "Because that which is real is irreplaceable."  I agree with Dolores.

49:00 - William/MIB heads to the elevator of truth.

57:10 - We see Bernard take the "encryption key" and start the sequence of events we know happened.  Also, right after we see William/MIB re-loading as he descends in an elevator.

1:02:15 - Hale horribly mispronounces the word amenable, then kills Elsie.  C'mon Tessa!

1:05:00 - Bernard "calls" Ford after he breaks down witnessing Elsie's death.  We get the first mention of "passenger" as a description of the guests, by way of the imaginary but still incredibly brilliant Hopkins.  Bernard asks about the nature of free will, and wonders if it's just a collective delusion - a sick joke.  This is the scene people should be obsessing over. 

As "Ford" says, at that point Bernard is the last of his kind.  It is entirely up to him whether the robots go extinct or have a future.  His ethics are vital to the show, and they just told you why.

1:08:45 - Even before the big reveal, we see Strand's tech freaking out that "this isn't the guest's data, this is something else."  Then Halores proceeds to kill everybody.  Go back to that scene though - I think it might be a hint.  Dolores sent a lot of stuff.  ? A lot of host data, rather than the guest data they were expecting. ?

1:11:40 - The most important part of the episode.  "As you know Bernard people are capable of change.  And I've changed my mind [gazes at superUSBball].  I have one last soul to carry to the new world."  Then Halores puts the superball in the super-device.  There are some obvious assumptions on who she's carrying to the new world - herself or Bernard or the new "Hale."  But this should be a crazy theory-driven discussion.  What if it's someone else.

1:18:35 - Stubbs' convo with Halores.  Maybe Stubbs is a host, sure, but what if this is Ford talking to Dolores before she leaves?  Because that's what it sounds like.  A goodbye and good luck.

1:22:00 - "You live as long as the last person who remembers you."  Well said.