Westworld VIII: Forging On

[Mexal]

On 6/26/2018 at 5:15 PM, williamjm said:

While I did like the early procedural episodes of Person of Interest, I agree it's the longer-term storytelling, particularly in the later seasons, that really becomes interesting and I think it had some great long-term character development. Michael Emerson and Amy Acker are both great in it. I don't know if I'd suggest jumping straight to a later season, but if someone didn't want to go through all the Number-of-the-week episodes it would probably be possible to draw up a shortlist of the episodes with things that will become important later on.

The show does also give me some faith that Jonathan Nolan is capable of plotting out a long-term story arc that makes sense. There are definitely times where it is a bit reminiscent of Westworld, in particular I see a lot of similarities between Grier and Ford and what seems to motivate them. The suggestion that humans are mostly predictable is also fairly key to both shows.

For anyone that wants to watch Person of Interest and skip a ton of the procedurals, this is the guide for you. Best way to catch up without having to watch 22 episodes per season.

[Guy Kilmore]

That is the one thing I am wondering, with the tissue regeneration and stuff; how long do people live?  How healthy do they stay?

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, Guy Kilmore said:

That is the one thing I am wondering, with the tissue regeneration and stuff; how long do people live?  How healthy do they stay?

If I remember right Ford gives a speech late in season one about how they've cured all disease and that means humanity has peaked and can only decline. I think ageing is probably still an issue otherwise Delos wouldn't still be working on immortality via host bodies.

Though I dunno maybe by the time the show starts they're only scanning people to replace them against their will like in Futureworld. Honestly at this point the series probably has more in common with the sequel movie than the original. 

[PetyrPunkinhead]

I'm not sure if anyone has put forth this theory here yet, but I read this theory elsewhere that kinda made sense. What if the Delos execs know about some unstoppable future cataclysmic event that's likely to wipe out all/most of humanity (meteorite, famine, etc), so that's why they're so keen on saving the Forge & it's data?

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

If I remember right Ford gives a speech late in season one about how they've cured all disease and that means humanity has peaked and can only decline. I think ageing is probably still an issue otherwise Delos wouldn't still be working on immortality via host bodies...

Didn't Delos also tell MIB in S2E4 that he's "dying" of a disease he cut funding for research on? Delos would've likely actually really died 25-30 years prior. to that episode though. Maybe they eliminated "all diseases" within that 25-30 year time span though.

[Astromech]

That finale was kind of a mess. I was interested in the core plot with Arnold and Dolores, but the other arcs left me rather unsatisfied and it felt like the writers were scrambling to finish their essay after the proctor announced five minutes time was left. UberMaeve and her power of the week became tiring, MiB morphing into a T1000, Typhoid Clementine on her pale horse, etc. Ford was kick ass the entire season, though.

[GallowKnight]

Just like the first season this one started off really good and then got worse as it progressed, bogged down by the need to have big mysteries and twists that just makes the whole thing convoluted for the sake of being convoluted. Unfortunately I think this season fell harder than the first and ended up being worse. In the end I just didn't care about most of the characters, especially not Dolores and Bernard.

It seems like the only tricks the show has are Which timeline are we in? and Is character X a host or a human?

To me the best and most interesting parts of the season were Shogunworld and Kiksuya.

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Astromech said:

That finale was kind of a mess. I was interested in the core plot with Arnold and Dolores, but the other arcs left me rather unsatisfied and it felt like the writers were scrambling to finish their essay after the proctor announced five minutes time was left. UberMaeve and her power of the week became tiring, MiB morphing into a T1000, Typhoid Clementine on her pale horse, etc. Ford was kick ass the entire season, though.

I disagree with your opinion but just want to say that for whatever reason Typhoid Clementine made me snort-laugh on the bus and I’m still chuckling now so thanks for that

I think I feel the opposite of @GallowKnight. For me the finale elevated the entire season. Up till the finale I was enjoying the season but felt at times it was meandering, lacked focus and was poorly paced. But seeing how the finale played out and where everything was heading from the start made the whole thing seem more impressive, to me at least

[DMC]

2 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

What if the Delos execs know about some unstoppable future cataclysmic event that's likely to wipe out all/most of humanity (meteorite, famine, etc), so that's why they're so keen on saving the Forge & it's data?

Clearly, Delos had/has better information on the oncoming blight that threatens the human race in Interstellar.

2 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

Didn't Delos also tell MIB in S2E4 that he's "dying" of a disease he cut funding for research on? Delos would've likely actually really died 25-30 years prior. to that episode though. Maybe they eliminated "all diseases" within that 25-30 year time span though.

Yes pretty much the only way for Delos' statement to align with Ford's in season 1 is that disease was eradicated in the interval.

2 hours ago, Astromech said:

Typhoid Clementine on her pale horse, etc

But still, it was a pretty great depiction of Man Comes Around/Revelation.

19 minutes ago, Helenas Musikautomat said:

But seeing how the finale played out and where everything was heading from the start made the whole thing seem more impressive, to me at least

Yeah me too.

[Astromech]

1 hour ago, Helenas Musikautomat said:

I disagree with your opinion but just want to say that for whatever reason Typhoid Clementine made me snort-laugh on the bus and I’m still chuckling now so thanks for that

I think I feel the opposite of @GallowKnight. For me the finale elevated the entire season. Up till the finale I was enjoying the season but felt at times it was meandering, lacked focus and was poorly paced. But seeing how the finale played out and where everything was heading from the start made the whole thing seem more impressive, to me at least

Please tell me you were drinking something at the time  

Was it ever explained why Maeve and her companions were immune to Clemetine's virus?

[Corvinus85]

20 minutes ago, Astromech said:

Please tell me you were drinking something at the time  

Was it ever explained why Maeve and her companions were immune to Clemetine's virus?

I should think Maeve would be immune, since Ford allowed her to unlock everything, so her own core is probably protected by such attacks. As to her companions, Idk, I was actually expecting a dramatic fight between Armistice and her Japanese counterpart, with both dying.

[dbunting]

5 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

I'm not sure if anyone has put forth this theory here yet, but I read this theory elsewhere that kinda made sense. What if the Delos execs know about some unstoppable future cataclysmic event that's likely to wipe out all/most of humanity (meteorite, famine, etc), so that's why they're so keen on saving the Forge & it's data?

Didn't Delos also tell MIB in S2E4 that he's "dying" of a disease he cut funding for research on? Delos would've likely actually really died 25-30 years prior. to that episode though. Maybe they eliminated "all diseases" within that 25-30 year time span though.

I believe Delos said that at the party, which was around 30 years before the present timeline, so if he cut funding 25-30 years before that, then Fords statement is 60 years after Delos cut funding right? Plenty of time for a cure in a world so advanced that can make hosts!

 

It would be nice if HBO would release a new season 2.5 where all the timeline stuff is sorted out and we see everything in order time wise.

[GallowKnight]

3 hours ago, Astromech said:

Please tell me you were drinking something at the time  

Was it ever explained why Maeve and her companions were immune to Clemetine's virus?

I assume that the woke hosts were immune. The Ghost Nation didn't seem to be affected either.

 

[Fragile Bird]

1 hour ago, GallowKnight said:

I assume that the woke hosts were immune. The Ghost Nation didn't seem to be affected either.

 

I noticed chaos broke out as she rode past hosts, I assumed she was broadcasting messages as she rode along. So I was very surprised that after she was taken down the ones ahead of her started attacking each other.

[dbunting]

1 minute ago, Casablanca Birdie said:

I noticed chaos broke out as she rode past hosts, I assumed she was broadcasting messages as she rode along. So I was very surprised that after she was taken down the ones ahead of her started attacking each other.

I guess we are to believe that the "virus" she was spreading kept going without her, using the host collective mind network?

[Cas Stark]

Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but it seemed like Maeve was just outrunning it...she wasn't close enough for the mesh virus to get her, although she may be immune anyway, it was unclear and probably a plot hole whether the rest of her woke gang were fighting because they were infected or fighting for themselves/Maeve.

In hindsight, Sizemore's death was more stupid than I thought at the time.

It will be interesting, given Nolan's very, very dark view of humanity, what kind of real world they create for the show.

[DMC]

44 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but it seemed like Maeve was just outrunning it...she wasn't close enough for the mesh virus to get her, although she may be immune anyway, it was unclear and probably a plot hole whether the rest of her woke gang were fighting because they were infected or fighting for themselves/Maeve.

I don't think it's a plot hole at all that all of the "woke" hosts weren't affected by Clem.  In fact, I can't think of any "woke" host that was affected by it, so it make sense.  Also, Maeve didn't just outrun it, she literally had her Neo-"...no!" moment and stopped all the infected hosts long enough to get Ake and her daughter out.

46 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

In hindsight, Sizemore's death was more stupid than I thought at the time.

It was pretty damn stupid in real time.

[dbunting]

9 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

I don't think it's a plot hole at all that all of the "woke" hosts weren't affected by Clem.  In fact, I can't think of any "woke" host that was affected by it, so it make sense.  Also, Maeve didn't just outrun it, she literally had her Neo-"...no!" moment and stopped all the infected hosts long enough to get Ake and her daughter out.

It was pretty damn stupid in real time.

Right, all he had to do was keep talking to the redshirt/stormtrooper aiming guards and the others could have escaped and he lived.

[Guy Kilmore]

14 hours ago, RumHam said:

If I remember right Ford gives a speech late in season one about how they've cured all disease and that means humanity has peaked and can only decline. I think ageing is probably still an issue otherwise Delos wouldn't still be working on immortality via host bodies.

Though I dunno maybe by the time the show starts they're only scanning people to replace them against their will like in Futureworld. Honestly at this point the series probably has more in common with the sequel movie than the original. 

Not saying that they are immortal, but with cell regeneration and whatnot, who is to say that human life ends at around 100 years?  Maybe things last longer.  If that is the case, probably why Ford was able to get away with Bernard vs Arnold.  If Arnold was a silent partner and only Ford really knew him, well, there ya go, it wouldn't look that weird if he looked the same he looked however many years ago.

As to the Clementine Virus, I thought that the woke AIs couldn't really be effected by that stuff.  It was why Lawrence was able to resist Maeve and whatnot.  They can edit their own lines of code.

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

If that is the case, probably why Ford was able to get away with Bernard vs Arnold. 

Or every few years Ford just did the good old fashioned Arrested Development Black Friday.

[DMC]

So I have now watched this now for a third time now.  Why?  Because I have no life.  Big whoof, you wanna fight about it?

Dolores clearly had alternate aims when she went down to "the Forge."  That's been clear each time upon watching, but I never looked at that results, at least not entirely.  The Abernathy/encryption key/pearl was the Macgruffin.  Dolores changed her mind at the last send about those that went passed "the door," but the former is important to emphasize.  When she's in the original "door," we see her skimming through books of code on "guests."*

As for Maeve, the really is the motherfucking heart of the show.  I've heard more complaints about Maeve in the past few days than I ever want to hear of.  Yes, her inciting incident here is cliched and trite, but she's the goddamn heart of this show.  Even when Lee Sizemore senselessly sacrifices his life, look at Maeve's reaction shots.  Dolores may be trying to kill the world, and Bernard may be trying to stop her, but it's Maeve that is the fullest of humanity - host or guest.  She proves it time and time again until her death.  It's Maeve for the win and anyone who says otherwise can eat it.

*Dolores can read as many codebooks as she wants - I love that I can call them that because that what's taking up most of my time right now.  It doesn't matter.  Bernard will stope Dolores and Maeve with triumph.  That's all folks.

Suppose I could take a gather at how is in Halores' Five Balls of Doom, but not that into it right now.  Later.