Formula One 2018

[red snow]

51 minutes ago, the hound of sansa said:

The championship loss will be Ferrari's fault as much as Vettel's. The constatly make bad desicions this year. It's not that they have winning strategies and Vettel by being impatient or anxious is the one losing the games. Ferrari has been outplayed in the strategy sector for 10+ years. 

Both are making costly mistakes which is probably making Vettel take more risks. It's strange though as Ferrari were consistently beating mercedes in pit stop strategy earlier in the season with mercedes making actively bad choices.

[Antonius Pius]

On 10/7/2018 at 6:04 PM, red snow said:

If it wasn't for vettel's contract id be having a sit down with Alonso and asking whether he'd like a go with s race winning car. I know Vettel has a contract but they could just say "like it or lump it" with Alonso as a team mate. 

Don't think that's likely... Alonso burned his bridges at Ferrari, and even though he may desperately want a winning car, Ferrari aren't going to be giving him one. 

The decision to take Leclerc over keeping Kimi is a slap in Vettel's face, so I'm sure he's aware he's not untouchable. Ferrari aren't above giving Leclerc preferential treatment if he prefers better. After all, their only goal is to win.

[Jussi]

Kimi is the best.

[Werthead]

Kimi is entertaining, although a pale shadow of his former self. But good to see him snatch at least one back before he leaves Ferrari. It would be fun if he could do it again before the end, especially if he is in a team orders situation with Vettel and tells them to fuck off.

It is slightly desperate to see everyone talking about "keeping the championship alive" though. Hamilton has it in the bag and unless he DNFs all three races (which is ludicrously improbable) it's over and done with. Vettel and Ferrari have to ask themselves how they let the season get away from them when they had the superior car at more than half the races (including this one).

[williamjm]

It was great race, particularly in the final stages. It's difficult to be sure if Mercedes could have won it with a different strategy, but they did seem to make things much harder for Hamilton that it needed to be by leaving him out so long in his second stint. When Hamilton cruised up behind Kimi after already having made a pit stop it did feel like Hamilton should win even if he had to make another stop. It was good see Kimi get what could end up being his final win, he did deliver an almost flawless race. Verstappen's drive was probably even better given how far back he started.

9 hours ago, Werthead said:

It is slightly desperate to see everyone talking about "keeping the championship alive" though. Hamilton has it in the bag and unless he DNFs all three races (which is ludicrously improbable) it's over and done with. Vettel and Ferrari have to ask themselves how they let the season get away from them when they had the superior car at more than half the races (including this one).

Agreed, it's completely implausible that Hamilton won't end up Champion now.

[Werthead]

I forgot that I hadn't watched the aftershow on C4 but had recorded it, so briefly went through it.

Interesting stuff that Ferrari's management may be blaming Vettel for losing the championship this year and that may be their official explanation to the people upstairs. Also very bizarre stuff that Ferrari want to be an "Italians only" team and are refusing to hire non-Italians for key roles. They also want an Italian driver, stat (which is presumably why they were insistent on getting Giovinazzi into Sauber when their first thought was to retain Ericsson). Presumably Leclerc from Monaco is "close enough" for their books. That's all fine, but it's a bit weird. Other teams hire from all over the place, Red Bull is mostly a British team despite Austrian ownership and Mercedes has a lot of Brits and Germans working together, McLaren and Neo-Force India have a lot of Americans mixed in etc. You should just get the best people regardless of nationality.

Weirder were reports of Vettel apparently hanging out at the Red Bull garage on the weekend. It's not unknown for that to happen, drivers stopping by old teams to catch up with former work-mates, etc, but it's strange that he was doing this in his position as a world title contender with a lot to do that weekend. Webber was arguing that Ferrari's driver-management has been shoddy this season, Vettel's engineer has not been giving him good information on the radio and Vettel may have been recalling the much greater support he got from Red Bull as opposed to Ferrari and the Italian media turning on him.

I would not be surprised if we saw Vettel and Ferrari parting ways once his contract is up, unless of course he just wins next year.

[williamjm]

27 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Interesting stuff that Ferrari's management may be blaming Vettel for losing the championship this year and that may be their official explanation to the people upstairs. Also very bizarre stuff that Ferrari want to be an "Italians only" team and are refusing to hire non-Italians for key roles. They also want an Italian driver, stat (which is presumably why they were insistent on getting Giovinazzi into Sauber when their first thought was to retain Ericsson). Presumably Leclerc from Monaco is "close enough" for their books. That's all fine, but it's a bit weird.

Maybe Ricciardo could be a good future choice for them if they are insisting on going down that route. He may be as Australian as they come but he's got the Italian heritage as well.

[Jussi]

On 10/22/2018 at 1:22 PM, Werthead said:

Kimi is entertaining, although a pale shadow of his former self.

I would say that this has been Kimi's best season since his return to Ferrari was announced in 2013. He is now third in the Championship points.

In my opinion Alonso has been a pale shadow of his former self for a couple of years. It's a good thing that he is finally leaving Formula One.

[Werthead]

4 hours ago, Jussi said:

I would say that this has been Kimi's best season since his return to Ferrari was announced in 2013. He is now third in the Championship points.

In my opinion Alonso has been a pale shadow of his former self for a couple of years. It's a good thing that he is finally leaving Formula One.

I agree it's been Kimi's best season for a while, but he's still not putting the car where it should be. With equal machinery to Vettel, he should be at least slotting in at #2 every time Vettel wins, and when Vettel's ballsed up as he tends to do, Kimi should be winning, and he hasn't.

Alonso, on the other hand, has been putting that McLaren where it has no right to be on the grid (especially at the start of the season, before they started dropping back) and getting the most out of the car every weekend. Put him in a Mercedes or back in the Ferrari, and he'd be wining races easily.

[polishgenius]

Yeah, I'm with Wert. Alonso's still possibly the best driver on the grid for my money. He's outperforming his car ridiculously.

[red snow]

18 hours ago, Jussi said:

I would say that this has been Kimi's best season since his return to Ferrari was announced in 2013. He is now third in the Championship points.

In my opinion Alonso has been a pale shadow of his former self for a couple of years. It's a good thing that he is finally leaving Formula One.

When you take into account the DNFs that weren't his fault at the start of the season then he could have been a stronger choice than Vettel as lead driver. Although I still think Vettel is more of a racer now than Kimi. Kimi would win a championship today in a rosberg style which is by being super consistent and not making any mistakes. Hare and the tortoise style rather than flashier wins. A championship is still a championship though.

I'm just hoping the sauber is still benefitting from the strong Ferrari engine next year as it would be nice to see Kimi off the leash as a top of the midfield driver.

Alonso I think has resigned himself to leaving over the last few races but I couldn't disagree more with him being past it. I think Hamilton, Vettel etc would have been ground down much earlier with the McLaren performance. And I agree with the others that he'd have taken a Ferrari to the last race or won the championship. Hamilton Vs Alonso in a mercedes would have been impossible to call. Hell, I'd even wonder how close he'd get with the red bull, although my caveat there is that I think red bull's performance is as much the excellence of their drivers as the car. It would have been a great judge of driver skill if we'd had Alonso and max/ricciardo as team mates.

The comments about Ferrari blaming Vettel seem unfair. There's no excusing Vettel has screwed up but that's also because Ferrari let him down in the development race which arguably forced Vettel into taking chances. That said we don't see the red bull drivers or Hamilton make this many mistakes so I think it's becoming clear to many that Vettel is a "fair weather" driver in sense he's excellent when things are going his way but very fragile when they aren't. Which is arguably why Kimi would have been a safer bet for the championship if it weren't for his poor start to the season.

I read an article explaining how recent Ferrari mods had made the car slower (I think it was aero on the "planks"). Simply reverting back to the old ones is probably the reason they were faster again. If that is true that's Ferrari's fault and nothing to do with Vettel. It also means mercedes didn't leap forward but Ferrari dropped back. That's not a good look for Ferrari. It's a little bit unpleasant when the Ferrari team get a bit nationalist with their approach and then try to put blame on the non-italian team members. I'm still hoping Ferrari can get the constructors in the last few races and feel that's where their focus should now be eg tell Vettel not to make risky moves if he and Kimi are ahead of the mercedes in race points. I kind of feel that Hamilton has a DNF/incident coming his way just from law if averages although he did bank a few of them mid season. If that happens the constructors championship is still very open. Racers championship would require the most bizarre bad luck for Hamilton and exceptional good luck for Vettel.

Verstappen's recent form with "back of the grid to podium" runs shows why red bull were so patient with his messy/immature start to this season. I think he's done a lot of growing up this season (and probably got knocked down a few pegs by Horner and red bull owner) and it's showing in recent races. I also love his personality for the sport his joke about being allowed to stay in the drivers room this year before the podium was great. But not as great as Kimi asking Hamilton if he had win the championship. The sport needs these characters.

Sorry for epic post. I missed most of the conversation while on a weekend break and catching up.

[Antonius Pius]

(Re: crash between Max and Ocon)

Well, that was an unexpected dick-move by Ocon. Has to have been motivated by either vendetta (for a Formula 3 incident?) or a moment of braindeath. You are of course allowed to unlap yourself, but driving into the side of the leader is inane in any situation. There can be no justification for what Ocon did here, IMO.

Breaking news is that both Ocon and Verstappen are called to the stewards for this incident. I can’t imagine there’ll be a punishment, especially after Saturday. Hamilton already starting the psychological warfare by calling the crash Verstappens fault.

[williamjm]

3 hours ago, Antonius Pius said:

(Re: crash between Max and Ocon)

Well, that was an unexpected dick-move by Ocon. Has to have been motivated by either vendetta (for a Formula 3 incident?) or a moment of braindeath. You are of course allowed to unlap yourself, but driving into the side of the leader is inane in any situation. There can be no justification for what Ocon did here, IMO. 

I thought Vettel's battle with the weighbridge would be the stupidest thing this weekend, but I think Ocon has managed to top that. It's a pity for Max who was driving a great race, at least he was still able to finish but he should have won that race.

[BigFatCoward]

8 hours ago, williamjm said:

I thought Vettel's battle with the weighbridge would be the stupidest thing this weekend, but I think Ocon has managed to top that. It's a pity for Max who was driving a great race, at least he was still able to finish but he should have won that race.

Vettel stupider than Verstappen stupider than Ocon. 

[red snow]

16 hours ago, Antonius Pius said:

(Re: crash between Max and Ocon)

Well, that was an unexpected dick-move by Ocon. Has to have been motivated by either vendetta (for a Formula 3 incident?) or a moment of braindeath. You are of course allowed to unlap yourself, but driving into the side of the leader is inane in any situation. There can be no justification for what Ocon did here, IMO.

Breaking news is that both Ocon and Verstappen are called to the stewards for this incident. I can’t imagine there’ll be a punishment, especially after Saturday. Hamilton already starting the psychological warfare by calling the crash Verstappens fault.

Yeah, that was my reading on Hamilton's "advice" which sky commentators took at face value but like you I took as mind games to throw verstappen off.

Ocon should have been punished further but I guess they figured not racing next year is punishment enough. 

It was an excellent race otherwise and so refreshing to see 4 cars so close to each other in final laps. And from 3 different teams!

Annoys me that they are making more rule changes next year. Why can't they just leave things alone? Red bull and Ferrari are catching mercedes and the midfield slowly catching too. All the rule changes do are shuffle who might be top between the top 3 teams (maybe Renault too) as it's only the teams with the biggest budgets can maximize rule changes (unless smaller teams are just really lucky).

I'm hoping red bull gets that extra horsepower as Hamilton Vs verstappen Vs Vettel will make for interesting races. Le clerc might surprise too 

[lmanion]

It may have been mind games from Hamilton but he wasnt exactly wrong. Red bull probably should have told Max to let him go bit they let max put himself in a position for a car that was on fresh tyres and lapping faster to run into him. Ocon did a shit job of unlapping himself but the fact remains if Max gives him room and lets him go then Max wins the race

[red snow]

8 minutes ago, lmanion said:

It may have been mind games from Hamilton but he wasnt exactly wrong. Red bull probably should have told Max to let him go bit they let max put himself in a position for a car that was on fresh tyres and lapping faster to run into him. Ocon did a shit job of unlapping himself but the fact remains if Max gives him room and lets him go then Max wins the race

I'm not so sure Hamilton would have followed his own advice. Ocon was only going to be faster at best for a few laps meaning Verstappen would have had to have overtaken him again risking Hamilton catching him in the meantime. The guy was 2 laps down - his race was over, it wasn't like he was ever going to finish in the points. It was a petty move by a driver without a race next year. I think backmarkers have to think about spectators watching the race and have a duty not to interfere when it's not damaging their own race. If Ocon was racing for position then it'd be a different story but he wasn't.

I'd be amazed if Hamilton would not have done the same thing if he had been in Verstappen's position. I'm also pretty sure he'd be blaming Ocon for it and not admonishing himself for not being more cautious. Hamilton is well known for complaining about back markers.

It could be fascinating If ocon winds up in a Mercedes in 2020 though - there's no love lost between him and Verstappen that's clear.

[Antonius Pius]

I doubt that Hamilton would have taken his own advice. I also want to bring up that Hamilton felt Sirotkin should have shown more respect in an incident where he himself essentially almost took Sirotkin out. There’s not much that Hamilton says about other drivers without having an agenda. Especially where his main competitors are involved.

Also, Max has had some incidents this year where he was obviously too eager, but I cannot see the reasoning for holding Max responsible for this incident with Ocon. Ocon had no right to duel with the raceleader. He had a right to unlap himself, yes, no one has disputed that. But he was racing Max as if they were racing for position, as he himself admitted in the interview afterwards (“I did the same [move] with Max that I did with Fernando and many others”). Honestly, it seems to me like frustration got the better of him. I don’t know if there was bad blood between them from their Formula Three days (they had some tough fights), or that Ocon is simply frustrated about not having a drive, but it was a bad move, plain and simple.

Verstappen just said on Dutch tv that he didn’t intend anything at the scales, just that he wanted to ask Ocon what he was thinking, but got (more) angry because Ocon immediately essentially played the victim and started to grin.

[lmanion]

6 hours ago, red snow said:

I'm not so sure Hamilton would have followed his own advice. Ocon was only going to be faster at best for a few laps meaning Verstappen would have had to have overtaken him again risking Hamilton catching him in the meantime. The guy was 2 laps down - his race was over, it wasn't like he was ever going to finish in the points. It was a petty move by a driver without a race next year. I think backmarkers have to think about spectators watching the race and have a duty not to interfere when it's not damaging their own race. If Ocon was racing for position then it'd be a different story but he wasn't.

I'd be amazed if Hamilton would not have done the same thing if he had been in Verstappen's position. I'm also pretty sure he'd be blaming Ocon for it and not admonishing himself for not being more cautious. Hamilton is well known for complaining about back markers.

It could be fascinating If ocon winds up in a Mercedes in 2020 though - there's no love lost between him and Verstappen that's clear.

Oh I agree Ocon isnt blameless probably should have minded his own business, was just stating that Max could have done a better job of looking out for himself

[polishgenius]

Kubica's back!