Wow, I never noticed that v.17

[Kandrax]

If R+L=J is true, than all Male Povs in the first book are second sons.

[Corvo the Crow]

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

 

Bolding doesn't work.

Dark grey is the normal color of VS but it is also one of the colors on the CoA of House Stark.

Is it the grey of the VS the blades remember or the grey of the Starks?

The North Remembers!

Also one of these blades, Oathkeeper, is given to Brienne to aid her in her search for Sansa. Sansa (who owned a grey direwolf), is a Stark, a grey direwolf, who has donned the crimson cloak of the Lannisters.

 

WOW! In addition to these, just noticed the Valyrian steel color in that post, a grey so dark looking almost black, is used somewhere else and only once!

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Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. 

Care to guess where else?

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Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almostblack, but there was little they did not see. 

 

So not only does this give us a similarity between Jon's coloring and that of VS's a hint towards Jon's Valyrian ancestry, but that grey and red could also be Jon's coloring, red dragon and grey direwolf, as well as Sansa's. And likely even more so since these swords are made from Ice's material and Ice was the sword he coveted along with what it represented; Lordship of Winterfell.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So not only does this give us a similarity between Jon's coloring and that of VS's a hint towards Jon's Valyrian ancestry, but that grey and red could also be Jon's coloring, red dragon and grey direwolf, 

It makes a quote like this funny;

Longclaw is Valyrian steel, but I'm not. (Sam I, AFFC 5)

Stannis calls Jon a weapon and compares finding Jon at the Wall to Jon finding the dragonglass.

King Stannis gazed off north again, his gold cloak streaming from his shoulders. "It may be that I am mistaken in you, Jon Snow. We both know the things that are said of bastards. You may lack your father's honor, or your brother's skill in arms. But you are the weapon the Lord has given me. I have found you here, as you found the cache of dragonglass beneath the Fist, and I mean to make use of you. Even Azor Ahai did not win his war alone. (Jon XI, ASOS 76)

And then;

"Y-yes, Your Grace. Jon Snow gave it to me."
"Dragonglass." The red woman's laugh was music. "Frozen fire, in the tongue of old Valyria. Small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the Other." (Sam V, ASOS)

[Alexis-something-Rose]

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"No," said Septon Maribald. "When the smith's son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sight of the black dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign into pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon's heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust. The innkeep never hung another sign, so men forgot the dragon and took to calling the place the River Inn." (Brienne VII, AFFC 37)

So I know this has been discussed in terms of a resurgence of the Blackfyres through Young Griff. I looked around to see if it was discussed (not the Blackfyre theory and this may be nothing new), but didn't find anything.

Elder Brother tells Brienne and Ser Hyle that 6 of Rhaegar's rubies washed up on Quiet Isle and that they are waiting for the 7th. Then Septon Meribald tells us the story about the dragon sigil that was destroyed, which symbolically could represent the destruction of House Targaryen. The pieces get thrown into the river and one of the heads washes up on . . . Quiet Isle. This to me seems like parts of a whole.

The dragon has three heads and the one that washed up is missing its "siblings" so to speak. 

Men forgot the dragon. After Robert's Rebellion and the fall of the Targaryens, people forgot them, or may have forgotten them since they don't really speak of them anymore. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

40 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

So I know this has been discussed in terms of a resurgence of the Blackfyres through Young Griff. I looked around to see if it was discussed (not the Blackfyre theory and this may be nothing new), but didn't find anything.

Elder Brother tells Brienne and Ser Hyle that 6 of Rhaegar's rubies washed up on Quiet Isle and that they are waiting for the 7th. Then Septon Meribald tells us the story about the dragon sigil that was destroyed, which symbolically could represent the destruction of House Targaryen. The pieces get thrown into the river and one of the heads washes up on . . . Quiet Isle. This to me seems like parts of a whole.

The dragon has three heads and the one that washed up is missing its "siblings" so to speak. 

Men forgot the dragon. After Robert's Rebellion and the fall of the Targaryens, people forgot them, or may have forgotten them since they don't really speak of them anymore. 

Are you familiar with this? 

[Seams]

41 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

So I know this has been discussed in terms of a resurgence of the Blackfyres through Young Griff. I looked around to see if it was discussed (not the Blackfyre theory and this may be nothing new), but didn't find anything.

Elder Brother tells Brienne and Ser Hyle that 6 of Rhaegar's rubies washed up on Quiet Isle and that they are waiting for the 7th. Then Septon Meribald tells us the story about the dragon sigil that was destroyed, which symbolically could represent the destruction of House Targaryen. The pieces get thrown into the river and one of the heads washes up on . . . Quiet Isle. This to me seems like parts of a whole.

The dragon has three heads and the one that washed up is missing its "siblings" so to speak. 

Men forgot the dragon. After Robert's Rebellion and the fall of the Targaryens, people forgot them, or may have forgotten them since they don't really speak of them anymore. 

You're wondering whether the rusty dragon head is the equivalent of the 7th ruby? Or maybe I misunderstand your question.

If the dragon head were the same thing as the missing ruby, the Elder Brother would say that they have the seven things they were expecting - no need to wait for a 7th ruby.

I don't think men have forgotten Targaryens or the dragon. The gold coins are still called dragons and places are named for members of the royal family. Robert was elevated as king because he was the member of the rebel alliance with the most Targaryen blood.

There is a lot that is unexplained about the Quiet Isle. The things that wash up on the riverbank definitely seem to be part of one of GRRM's death and rebirth motifs. It will be interesting to see whether the last ruby turns up and/or the other heads of the dragon sign.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Are you familiar with this? 

Yes, I am. But that's fine. It doesn't seem like I'm expressing myself properly this morning.

ETA: Let me give this another try.

If Rhaegar's rubies that have washed up on the Quiet Isle are supposed to symbolize his bloodline and a seventh is expected to wash out, then maybe it's the same with the heads of the dragons?

Rhaegar says in the HotU the dragon has three heads, something that Sarella Sand repeats and Maester Aemon tells Sam during their crossing. Making abstraction of the whole black dragon turning red and the Blackfyre Conspiracy, of Jon being a secret Targaryen, of Tyrion the speculation that Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard, one of the heads of the dragons has turned up, Dany. She turned up first because we know her true identity, and she is part of Rhaegar's bloodline. 

We are missing two heads, just like the clanking dragon is missing its two other heads that were not only destroyed, but also thrown in the water. The Inn at the Crossroads is not so far from the ruby ford.

When Rhaegar was killed, Robert's hammer took him in the chest, right where the sigil of his House was. 

I just think there's a symbolic connection that goes beyond the Blackfyre Conspiracy. I looked for some speculation on this, did not find it.

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I don't think men have forgotten Targaryens or the dragon. The gold coins are still called dragons and places are named for members of the royal family. Robert was elevated as king because he was the member of the rebel alliance with the most Targaryen blood.

I'm talking about the population at large. The lords obviously remember the dragons and the Targaryens. But there's two instances that I remember where people got the Targaryens confused. In the Prologue of Feast, Roone thinks that it was Dany who had her head smashed against the wall, until Sarella corrects him. And Davos in ADWD, the people who are chatting at the tavern are a tad confused about who's who. 

Quote

There is a lot that is unexplained about the Quiet Isle. The things that wash up on the riverbank definitely seem to be part of one of GRRM's death and rebirth motifs. It will be interesting to see whether the last ruby turns up and/or the other heads of the dragon sign.

A lot unexplained from that Elder Brother to the isle itself. It's certainly interesting that the people that live there have taken a vow of silence.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Yes, I am. But that's fine. It doesn't seem like I'm expressing myself properly this morning.

ETA: Let me give this another try.

If Rhaegar's rubies that have washed up on the Quiet Isle are supposed to symbolize his bloodline and a seventh is expected to wash out, then maybe it's the same with the heads of the dragons?

Rhaegar says in the HotU the dragon has three heads, something that Sarella Sand repeats and Maester Aemon tells Sam during their crossing. Making abstraction of the whole black dragon turning red and the Blackfyre Conspiracy, of Jon being a secret Targaryen, of Tyrion the speculation that Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard, one of the heads of the dragons has turned up, Dany. She turned up first because we know her true identity, and she is part of Rhaegar's bloodline. 

We are missing two heads, just like the clanking dragon is missing its two other heads that were not only destroyed, but also thrown in the water. The Inn at the Crossroads is not so far from the ruby ford.

When Rhaegar was killed, Robert's hammer took him in the chest, right where the sigil of his House was. 

I just think there's a symbolic connection that goes beyond the Blackfyre Conspiracy. I looked for some speculation on this, did not find it.

I'm talking about the population at large. The lords obviously remember the dragons and the Targaryens. But there's two instances that I remember where people got the Targaryens confused. In the Prologue of Feast, Roone thinks that it was Dany who had her head smashed against the wall, until Sarella corrects him. And Davos in ADWD, the people who are chatting at the tavern are a tad confused about who's who. 

A lot unexplained from that Elder Brother to the isle itself. It's certainly interesting that the people that live there have taken a vow of silence.

Oh, I gotcha (I think), you're getting after the symbolism of the head of the clanking dragon, right? 

In the past, I have seen (and borrowed) speculation that the black dragon that washes up red will be one of the three heads of Rhaegar's dragon. I don't believe I have ever seen this stated as a theory in a stand alone thread, but I have seen it discussed in other contexts. 

Is that what you are getting after? 

By the way, you might like this thread, or not. 

[The hairy bear]

9 hours ago, Kandrax said:

If R+L=J is true, than all Male Povs in the first book are second sons.

Wow, that's a cool find.

Thinking about this, it also seems that all the other male POVs added in future books are not second sons. At least we know that Theon, Samwell, Jaime, Areo Hotah, Barristan, Victarion, Connington, and Quentyn are not. I don't think we know about for sure Davos or Arys Oakheart, but in the first case it seems to be an only child, and in the second case it seems to be the younger of many sons.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

51 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Oh, I gotcha (I think), you're getting after the symbolism of the head of the clanking dragon, right? 

In the past, I have seen (and borrowed) speculation that the black dragon that washes up red will be one of the three heads of Rhaegar's dragon. I don't believe I have ever seen this stated as a theory in a stand alone thread, but I have seen it discussed in other contexts. 

Is that what you are getting after? 

By the way, you might like this thread, or not. 

You got me! And I will take a look at the thread. 

I just find the whole thing taken together really interesting.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Gregor Clegane killed Aegon, Elia and Oberyn in the same way, by smashing their heads in.

The boy had been no more than a babe in arms, yet Lord Tywin's soldiers had torn him from his mother's breast and dashed his head against a wall. (Eddard II, AGOT 12)

"Elia of Dorne," they all heard Ser Gregor say, when they were close enough to kiss. His deep voice boomed within the helm. "I killed here screaming whelp." He thrust his free hand into Oberyn's unprotected face, pushing steel fingers into his eyes. "Then I raped her." Clegane slammed his fist into the Dornishman's mouth, making splinters of his teeth. "Then I smashed her fucking head in. Like this." As he drew back his huge fist, the blood on his gauntlet seemed to smoke in the cold dawn air. There was a sickening crunch. (Tyrion X, ASOS 70)

I wonder if it's supposed to be meaningful in some way.

[Megorova]

I haven't noticed before, that Shiera Seastar has connection to rubies. Ruby is one of her four birthstones.

Shiera Seastar is Quaithe. She is GRRM's parallel to Maiden-made-of-Light, the Moon, and Bloodraven is The Lion of Night, and Shiera's Sun and Stars.

Moon is the guardian planet of sign Cancer. The Zodiac sign of Cancer includes four stones: emerald, moonstone, pearl, and ruby. In addition to the Zodiac stones, moonstone is listed as the Planetary stone for Cancer and sapphire as the Talismanic Stone.

Shiera has two-colored eyes - green and blue, and her favourite jewellery was emerald and sapphire necklace. Shiera used moonstone for her shadowbinding artifact (in The Mystery Knight novel). And on sevensided wedding chalise, given as a present to Joffrey, on side with sigil of Starks, there was a pearl. Why pearl? What's the connection between The North and pearls? There's none. Aside from Shiera Seastar. If Jon is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then Jon and Shiera are bloodrelated. So this pearl on Starks' sigil, is a hint towards connection between Starks and Targaryens.

Sun is the guardian planet of sign Lion. ADWD, Jon I: " “Snow,” the moon insisted. The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden". That cave is the Weirwood cave of Bloodraven, and Bloodraven is the Sun, and the Lion of Night. Bloodraven is an albino, so he is a white lion. Dany's vision was about Bloodraven (ACOK, Dany IV): "A white lion ran through grass taller than a man." And he is the sun, that will rise in the west, and will set in the east.

They (whoever they are) need seven people with dragon blood, seven "rubies", to perform magic ritual. The same, as was done prior Tragedy at Summerhall: "the blood of the dragon gathered in one …  … seven eggs, to honor the seven gods" Seven eggs are actually seven dragonseeds, or seven rubies.

Rhaegar's seven rubies are:

1. Bloodraven;
2. Shiera Seastar;
3. Varys;
4. fAegon;
5. Dany;
6. Rhaego;
7. Jon.

[Seams]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I haven't noticed before, that Shiera Seastar has connection to rubies. Ruby is one of her four birthstones.

. . .

This is the fanciest theory I've seen in quite some time.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

This is the fanciest theory I've seen in quite some time.

I know, that it's a VERY farfetched theory. But it is based on info from the books.

- Bloodraven's moonstone brooch from The Mystery Knight, thru usage of which he made himself look like Maynard Plumm (or maybe, like in ADWD, the one, who created a shadow, was Shiera, while Bloodraven was only a carrier of that shadow-mask - parallel to the shadow-spell between Melisandre and Mance/Rattleshirt).

- Shiera's favourite jewellery were two necklases. One with STAR sapphires, the other with STAR emeralds.

- Dothraki think, that the moon is a goddess, and that the sun is her husband. So people, that love each other, are calling: him her - moon of my life, her him - my sun and stars. Like Drogo and Dany.

- Bloodraven was Shiera's lover. And those two necklaces were her favourites. So I think, that it's likely, that those necklaces were Bloodraven's presents, while Shiera gave him that moonstone brooch, as a reciprocal present.

- Quaithe is definitely Shiera Seastar. There are over 10 clues about her real identity. So Shiera was wearing star necklaces, and Quaithe is wearing wooden mask, "made of starlight". Stars again, as a favourite accessorie. Aside from Quaithe, there's only one more person, that is wearing wooden mask, and that's wildling witch Morna. Mor in Welsh means the sea. So it's a hint towards Shiera Seastar. Morna's mask is white, and made of weirwood. We know, that Shiera was user of blood magic and shadowbinder - Egg said so in The Sworn Sword. He said, that Lady Shiera is dancing with demons (it's shadowbinding, because Mirri Maz Duur was a shadowbinder, and Jorah saw her dancing with shadows), and that she's bathing in blood (this is bloodmagic. Sam Tarly was bathed in blood, by warlocks from Qarth). Quaithe's mask was described as red and laquered. So that red "paint" could be blood. And the mask undernear that red paint, is a weirwood. Shiera was Bloodraven's Moon, and he was her Sun and Stars. So in the past, she was wearing his present - star necklaces. And those "stars" were for her, symbols of her lover, Bloodraven. So now she is wearing "starlight" mask, made of weirwood. Dany looked at Quaithe's mask, and saw, that it's made of starlight. That's because the mask is made of weirwood, and Bloodraven, who is Shiera's "stars", are binded to a Weirwood, he became a Weirwood. Weirwood = Bloodraven = Shiera's Sun and Stars. And the mask is painted with blood, because - 1. Shiera is user of blood magic; 2. Bloodraven. Probably the blood on her mask is his. That way, it makes their connection stronger - weirwood, to which he is binded, and his blood, on top of it. For example, Faceless Men are also using blood to strengthen connection between person, that is wearing a "face", and person, to whom that face belonged. So blood could be used as a catalyst, or as an enhancer.

- In Jon's dream, the moon was talking to him, and chasing after him. He/Ghost has run from her towards the cave of night, where the sun has hidden. Moon + Sun + Cave of Night. Doesn't this ring a bell?  - Essos legends about First Long Night. Maiden-made-of-Light, and her husband - The Lion of the Night, who caused the sun to dissapear. Dothraki legends about moon-wife, and her sun-and-stars husband.

Sun is the guardian planet of Zodiac sign Leo. In many cultures the lion is a symbol of the sun. Moon is the guardian planet of sign Cancer. Birthstones and talisman stones of Cancer are - emeralds, sapphires, rubies, pearls, and moonstones. Leo's birthstones are - onyx, rubies, emeralds, amber (a tree's blood ).

- In one of Jon's chapters, when he was with Melisandre, and she was talking about shadows, the moon has kissed Jon, and etched his shadow on The Wall. Moon + shadow - Shiera is a shadowbinder. In one of next chapters, Jon was kissed by Morna, and she removed her weirwood mask to kiss his hand. Kissing + weirwood mask - a hint to other woman, that is also wearing a wooden mask, and "kissed" Jon. 

- Description of sign Leo and Cancer, match to what we know about Bloodraven's and Shiera's personalities.

Etc.

[Megorova]

Don't know how to phrase it correctly in English Ships are of female gender. A ship is a she, not a he. So the ship Selaesori Qhoran (Perfumed Seneschal) is a she. So the person, about whom Quaithe warned Dany, is also, probably, a woman - Galazza Galare, and not Varys, Illyrio, or any other male character.

[Seams]

From the wiki:

Lady Rohanne was short (4'11"), slim, and had strawberry-blond red hair and green eyes. She had a dimpled chin, a snub nose, and freckles. She usually kept her hair bound in a braid that reached down to her thighs, and frequently played with it. She tried hard to appear ferocious to other lords and knights.

Shadrich is a wiry, fox-faced man with a sharp nose and bristly orange hair. Though he is not more than five foot two, short enough to be mistaken for a boy, he has the face of a much older man, with wrinkles by his mouth and hard eyes. He also has a scar beneath his ear.

The fox-faced detail in Shadrich's description doesn't match the description of Lady Rohanne, but her father's name (or some previous Lord Webber) was Ser Reynard. Reynard is the name of the fox in trickster folk tales told in Europe.

I doubt that Shadrich is literally a descendant of Lady Rohanne. I suspect GRRM might be setting up parallels in Brienne's story and the adventures of Ser Duncan the Tall, since he is her ancestor. Brienne found a woman to repaint her shield, echoing the shield painted for Dunk by Tanselle Too Tall. Shadrich might be the next parallel.

Jaime is a descendant of Rohanne Webber, of course. When Brienne thinks of Shadrich, she feels like a fool and she often immediately thinks about Jaime. They seem to be related in her mind.

[The hairy bear]

On 7/27/2018 at 9:34 PM, Megorova said:

And on sevensided wedding chalise, given as a present to Joffrey, on side with sigil of Starks, there was a pearl. Why pearl? What's the connection between The North and pearls? There's none.

I'm surprised that you are able to spot such a series or far-fetched connections out of thin air, and then you fail to see the obvious ones.

The Stark sigil was represented with a pearl because the pearl is white, and this is the Stark's color as per the snowy field of their banner. It is the same reason that dictated the precious gem that corresponded to each of the other sigils in the wedding chalice: a (red) ruby lion, a (green) emerald rose, a (black) onyx stag, a (blue) jade falcon, an (orange) opal sun, and a silver trout.

No need for cabalistic and astrological interpretations.

[Corvo the Crow]

Can't add quotes for this at the moment, adding multiple quotes is a pain on the phone.

 Davos, who's missing the tips of four fingers on his left hand, is the right hand man of Stannis, "Chosen of Rhllor". 

Order of Warrior's of Rhllor is Fiery Hand. 

Tyrion asks Jorah how many fingers does the hand have when he first learns about them and calls Moqorro's five guards from the Red Hand Fiery Fingers.

I bet that you can see where this is going;

Davos missing four finger tips on his left hand lost four sons and his bag of finger bones on the Blackwater, while in service of "Rhllor's Chosen" as his right hand. Davos lost his fiery fingers, just as Moqorro lost his. Davos is an agent of the Red God.

[dmfn]

On 7/14/2018 at 3:13 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

This one really made me "wow!"

weirwoods come in a variety of shapes, facial features and expressions so here's the one that struck me

A face long and melancholy, like a Stark.

Manderly's heart tree is described as 'fat' too. 

[dmfn]

On 7/25/2018 at 8:21 PM, Widow's Watch said:

So I know this has been discussed in terms of a resurgence of the Blackfyres through Young Griff. I looked around to see if it was discussed (not the Blackfyre theory and this may be nothing new), but didn't find anything.

Elder Brother tells Brienne and Ser Hyle that 6 of Rhaegar's rubies washed up on Quiet Isle and that they are waiting for the 7th. Then Septon Meribald tells us the story about the dragon sigil that was destroyed, which symbolically could represent the destruction of House Targaryen. The pieces get thrown into the river and one of the heads washes up on . . . Quiet Isle. This to me seems like parts of a whole.

The dragon has three heads and the one that washed up is missing its "siblings" so to speak. 

Men forgot the dragon. After Robert's Rebellion and the fall of the Targaryens, people forgot them, or may have forgotten them since they don't really speak of them anymore. 

Also, a black dragon cast into the water washes up red with rust. Could a red dragon wash up only to be discovered to really be black later? (Aegon pretending to be one thing, revealed later to be another)