Wow, I never noticed that v.17

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And one more

• A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IV

  Irri fetched the egg with the deep green shell, bronze flecks shining amid its scales as she turned it in her small hands. Dany curled up on her side, pulling the sandsilk cloak across her and cradling the egg in the hollow between her swollen belly and small, tender breasts. She liked to hold them. They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.

  She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her … as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. "You are the dragon," Dany whispered to him, "the true dragon. I know it. I know it." And she smiled, and went to sleep dreaming of home.

How is that related to Stannis potentially sacrificing a child, perhaps his own, by burning her at the stake? 

[The Fattest Leech]

46 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

How is that related to Stannis potentially sacrificing a child, perhaps his own, by burning her at the stake? 

More to the second quote

Spoiler

't delete anything here.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

More to the second quote

  Reveal hidden contents

't delete anything here.

 

Quoter going nutso on me...trying to clear...

[Seams]

Winter fell

Spring Sickness

Summer hall

If you count fell as fall, we get all four seasons in these places / events associated with tragedy and death. Or maybe there is a separate event associated with Fall? (Either the fall of the Wall itself or someone falling off the Wall - because of the Humpty Dumpty imagery, I suspect it will be an Aegon / Egg who dies that way.)

I think of the Spring Sickness as having a strong association with King's Landing, where bodies were piled in the dragon pit for burning.

I also have an unconfirmed suspicion that Bloodraven either created or manipulated the epidemic. I think he was shaping the Targaryen dynasty to try to restore greatness and weed out bad seeds. A lot of collateral damage, though, just to get rid of a king and two Targ heirs.

[asongofheresy]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

Winter fell

Spring Sickness

Summer hall

If you count fell as fall, we get all four seasons in these places / events associated with tragedy and death. Or maybe there is a separate event associated with Fall? (Either the fall of the Wall itself or someone falling off the Wall - because of the Humpty Dumpty imagery, I suspect it will be an Aegon / Egg who dies that way.)

I think of the Spring Sickness as having a strong association with King's Landing, where bodies were piled in the dragon pit for burning.

I also have an unconfirmed suspicion that Bloodraven either created or manipulated the epidemic. I think he was shaping the Targaryen dynasty to try to restore greatness and weed out bad seeds. A lot of collateral damage, though, just to get rid of a king and two Targ heirs.

The he did a pretty badass job considering we lost Baelor and Valarr - Maekar lived all his life blaming himself for slaying his brother and couldn't find peace in his remaining days, all of Maekar's sons turned out to be wack with the exception of Aemon and the next generation was worse with a fucking civil war and broken alliances with major houses - and the dynasty ended at the hands of a mad man and a stupid prince. Restore greatness indeed. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

I am thinking that Lord Monkeyface and his successor were written in to show Visenya's disdain for men lesser than the dragonlords of Old Valyria. 

[Corvo the Crow]

I’ve noticed Val and Jaime(not Brienne) both travel on a half blind horse when they were on their quest to find someone and they were set free from their captivity in return for this promise.  

Are there any similarities between these two or other parallels in their journey? Do the half blind horses symbolizing them setting out for this quest half-blinded?

[Corvo the Crow]

Tarth:

The first time we are given a detail about the house, we are given their heraldry

Quote

His steel was a deep cobalt, even the blunt morningstar he wielded with such deadly effect, his mount barded in the quartered sun-and-moon heraldry of House Tarth.

A quartered sigil, we know it to be a sun on quarters 1-4(fathers side) and moon on 2-3(mother’s side).

Quote

Ser Colen frowned. "Because he is no man, my lady. That's Brienne of Tarth, daughter to Lord Selwyn the Evenstar."

 

"My father is Selwyn of Tarth, by the grace of the gods Lord of Evenfall." Even that was given grudgingly.

Once kings in their own right, the Lords of Tarth still style themselves "the Evenstar," a title that they claim goes back unto the dawn of days.

 

 

The head of the house is called Evenstar, a title going back to “the dawn of days” and their seat is Evenfall

 

Tarth was invaded during Andals’ westward migration too

Quote

Though the Storm Kings won half a dozen major battles—the greatest of these being the Battle of Bronzegate where Monfryd V Durrandon defeated the Holy Brotherhood of the Andals, an alliance of seven petty kings and war lords, at the cost of his own life—the longships kept coming. It was said that for every Andal who fell in battle, five more came wading ashore. Tarth was the first of the stormlands to be overwhelmed; Estermont soon followed.

 

And apparently there was a seat of petty andal kings in the eastern side, called Morne and a legendary figure most likely an Andal, Galladon of Morne.

Quote

Many of the folk of Tarth, highborn and low alike, claim descent from a legendary hero, Ser Galladon of Morne, who was said to wield a sword called the Just Maid given to him by the Seven themselves. Given the role that the Just Maid plays in Ser Galladon's tale, Maester Hubert, in his Kin of the Stag, has suggested that Galladon of Morne was no rude warrior of the Age of Heroes turned into a knight by singers a thousand years later, but an actual historic figure of more recent times. Hubert also notes that Morne was a royal seat of petty kings on the eastern coast of Tarth until the Storm Kings made them submit, but that its ruins indicate that the site was made by Andals, not First Men.

 

Tarths of today are a union of Tarths and this House of Morne, Union was between a lady/queen Tarth who kept the name and a lord/king ‘Morne’ who took the name Tarth, just as Joffrey Lydden took rhe Lannister name.

 

I will, if I have time soon, expand on Tarth, Tarths and Andals of Tarth, connecting them to a certain other fantasy novel universe; a people/race who went west and merged with anotherrace/people, a broken sword, and a female character with a starry name.

ooh and a certain green gem or two as well!

 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I will, if I have time soon, expand on Tarth, Tarths and Andals of Tarth, connecting them to a certain other fantasy novel universe; a people/race who went west and merged with anotherrace/people, a broken sword, and a female character with a starry name

Tease! 

[Marcelowww]

Stannis comes from Stan

Baratheon was the name given to the bastards of Valyria

Barathe-on and Velary-on (same number of syllables with the same sound, and the same suffix)

Rickon comes from Rickard+Brandon

 

[Corvo the Crow]

10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Tease! 

The connections are so obvious I wonder how come I didn’t see it before... or anyone else

But I am on a phone with a very small screen and it literally took me an hour to make the above post which is just copy-paste and involved no searching at all. I dread to yhink how much time this would take.

[Corvo the Crow]

Wow wow wow! I’m sure someone has noticed this one before but I haven’t, this could be one of the biggest subtle hints of fAegon really being Blackfyre

Quote

By the time she was ready, dusk had fallen. Arianne had thought that Hotah would escort her to the Tower of the Sun to hear her father's judgment. Instead he delivered her to the prince's solar, where they found Doran Martell seated behind a cyvasse table, his gouty legs supported by a cushioned footstool. He was toying with an onyx elephant, turning it in his reddened, swollen hands. The prince looked worse than she had ever seen him. His face was pale and puffy, his joints so inflamed that it hurt her just to look at them. Seeing him this way made Arianne's heart go out to him . . . yet somehow she could not bring herself to kneel and beg, as she had planned. "Father," she said instead.

...

When he raised his head to look at her, his dark eyes were clouded with pain. Is that the gout? Arianne wondered. Or is it me? "A strange and subtle folk, the Volantenes," he muttered, as he put the elephant aside. "I saw Volantis once, on my way to Norvos, where I first met Mellario. The bells were ringing, and the bears danced down the steps. Areo will recall the day."

...

Her father plucked up a cyvasse piece. "I must know how you learned that Quentyn was abroad. Your brother went with Cletus Yronwood, Maester Kedry, and three of Lord Yronwood's best young knights on a long and perilous voyage, with an uncertain welcome at its end. He has gone to bring us back our heart's desire."

She narrowed her eyes. "What is our heart's desire?"

"Vengeance." His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. "Justice." Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, "Fire and blood."

A black elephant, a red hand. Elephant is Volantis or Volantenes as Doran says, but this is symbolizing heraldry as well. Also Who is/was in Volantis? fAegon known as Young Griff. A reminder, during the first attacks  Jon the Con instructs on using no banners.

Quentyn’s fellowship of the ring was there as well. 

 Putting the elephant aside symbolizes both the Young Griff leaving Volantis and Doran setting aside Quentyn. 

Finally, he picks an Onyx dragon piece into his red hand, black dragon on a red field, and presses it into Arianne’s hand. Doran presses the dragon into Arianne’s hand, The black dragon on red field will be in Arianne’s hand. Or in other words, Doran is pressing Arianne on to find the black dragon and give him her hand while also giving her the kind of husband she so desired, a young lord with the looks of Dorkstar she found so attracrive.

 

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Wow wow wow! I’m sure someone has noticed this one before but I haven’t, this could be one of the biggest subtle hints of fAegon really being Blackfyre

A black elephant, a red hand. Elephant is Volantis or Volantenes as Doran says, but this is symbolizing heraldry as well. Also Who is/was in Volantis? fAegon known as Young Griff. A reminder, during the first attacks  Jon the Con instructs on using no banners.

Quentyn’s fellowship of the ring was there as well. 

 Putting the elephant aside symbolizes both the Young Griff leaving Volantis and Doran setting aside Quentyn. 

Finally, he picks an Onyx dragon piece into his red hand, black dragon on a red field, and presses it into Arianne’s hand. Doran presses the dragon into Arianne’s hand, The black dragon on red field will be in Arianne’s hand. Or in other words, Doran is pressing Arianne on to find the black dragon and give him her hand while also giving her the kind of husband she so desired, a young lord with the looks of Dorkstar she found so attracrive.

It's pretty cool, isn't it? Here are some old threads you might find interesting...

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/62611-the-strange-and-subtle-elephants-of-the-golden-company/

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/101869-a-strange-and-subtle-folk-the-volantenes/

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/121961-essay-a-game-of-thrones-a-game-of-cyvasse/

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/85752-the-rundown-of-the-dance-of-dragons-20/

[Megorova]

12 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

The connections are so obvious I wonder how come I didn’t see it before... or anyone else

If you meant Arwen, who's nickname was Evenstar, then I did noticed it. There are many parallels between ASOIAF and LOTR. For example, GRRM's Valyrians are, probably, based on Tolkien's elves, and Valyrian steel is a parallel to Middle-earth magic metal Mithril, etc.

Post your theory about Tarths. I'm curious. And I promise, that I won't flood it.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

If you meant Arwen, who's nickname was Evenstar, then I did noticed it. There are many parallels between ASOIAF and LOTR. For example, GRRM's Valyrians are, probably, based on Tolkien's elves, and Valyrian steel is a parallel to Middle-earth magic metal Mithril, etc.

Post your theory about Tarths. I'm curious. And I promise, that I won't flood it.

I gave all the relevant bits but here , some explanations off the top of my head I’ll keep it short 

Tarth, sapphire Isle on the west - Numenor, an isle to the west, also called Elenna because dunedain were led to it by the star of earandil, owner of green gem elessar, the elfstone. They were both colonized by men from the east.

Selwyn Evenstar’s name comes from the female side of his heraldry as I explained with CoA, So evenstar married to the men from the east coming to the isle. Arwen evenstsr married a man who descended from people who went from east to west and colonize a man.

 

Ice is “broken” and reforged into Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail, Brienne wields a part of the sword that was broken and kills with it - Narsil is broken into two and Isildur uses it to cut Sauron’s pfinger. Narsil is later forged into Anduril. Narsil also symbolizes moon and sun just like the Tarth sigil.

 

[Tucu]

40 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I gave all the relevant bits but here , some explanations off the top of my head I’ll keep it short 

Tarth, sapphire Isle on the west - Numenor, an isle to the west, also called Elenna because dunedain were led to it by the star of earandil, owner of green gem elessar, the elfstone. They were both colonized by men from the east.

Selwyn Evenstar’s name comes from the female side of his heraldry as I explained with CoA, So evenstar married to the men from the east coming to the isle. Arwen evenstsr married a man who descended from people who went from east to west and colonize a man.

 

Ice is “broken” and reforged into Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail, Brienne wields a part of the sword that was broken and kills with it - Narsil is broken into two and Isildur uses it to cut Sauron’s pfinger. Narsil is later forged into Anduril. Narsil also symbolizes moon and sun just like the Tarth sigil.

 

Sometime ago I found a more gruesome Evening Star/Morning Star relationship in Native American mythology. This is the description of the Morning Star ceremony:

Quote

The priests removed her clothing and she was left alone on the scaffold at the moment of the rising of the Morning Star (Mars). Symbolizing the Morning Star and his fireballs, two men would come from the east and touch flaming branches to her armpits and groin. She would then be touched with war clubs by four other men. A sacred arrow from the Skull bundle was shot through her heart by the man who captured her while simultaneously another man struck her over the head with the war club from the Morning Star bundle. The dead girl's chest would then be cut open by the priest with a flint knife while her captor caught her blood on dried meat. ("A very small cut is made ... The heart is not exposed or removed.")^[ All male members of the tribe would then press forward and shoot arrows into the dead body, then circle the scaffold four times and disperse.

By shooting arrows into her body, the village men, as embodiments of Morning Star, were symbolically mating with her. Her blood would drip down from the scaffolding and onto the ground which had been made to represent the Evening Star's garden of all plant and animal life. They took her body and lay the girl face down on the prairie, where her blood would enter the earth and fertilize the ground. The spirit of the Evening Star was released and ceremony ensured the Skidi Pawnee participants of the success of the crops, all life on the Plains, and the perpetuation of the Universe.

This ceremony is one of the most recent cases of human sacrifice in the US and I wonder if GRRM is including it in his story with the references to the Morning Star and the EvenStar (plus Brienne being known as "The Maid of Tarth")

[Megorova]

I thought, that GRRM may mean something more with this Evening star, not only reference to Arwen from LOTR.

Like the Sword of the Morning, wielder of Dawn is, probably, parallel to fallen angel Lucifer (Devil), whose name meant "Lightbringer". Though planet Venus was also called lucifer, or Morning star. I made some calculations of when Jon and Dany were born, and it's possible, that she was born in late May - early June, so she's Gemini, and he was born in late September, so he is Libra. Both Libra and Gemini are Air signs, so it's a hint, that both of them will become dragonriders. So, maybe, Jon, whose guardian planet is Venus, is a Morning Star, while Dany, whose guardian planet is Mercury, is Evening Star. Both Venus and Mercury appear in the west (evening sky) after sunset, so they both are called Evening Star. So, possibly, it's a clue from GRRM, that Jon and Dany are "Messiahs" of ASOIAF, that will appear in the west/Westeros, when Long Night will begin. Or Jon is Morning Star, because he will be wielder of Dawn, and Dany is Evening Star - he will die, and be replaced by her.

The thing is, GRRM could have used more than one character, as a parallel to certain character from LOTR or other sources. Like Evening Star/Arwen could have been used, as a basis for both Brienne and Dany; and both - Jon and Jaime - may be parallels to Aragorn.

[Corvo the Crow]

16 hours ago, Tucu said:

Sometime ago I found a more gruesome Evening Star/Morning Star relationship in Native American mythology. This is the description of the Morning Star ceremony:

This ceremony is one of the most recent cases of human sacrifice in the US and I wonder if GRRM is including it in his story with the references to the Morning Star and the EvenStar (plus Brienne being known as "The Maid of Tarth")

Nice, “Penrose lances and Tarth Arrows..” make more sense now.

 

Brienne uses a morningstar now that I think of it.

[Seams]

48 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Brienne uses a morningstar now that I think of it.

Brienne uses the morningstar to defeat Ser Loras at Renly's melee at Bitterbridge. If there is wordplay on Loras / solar, there could be deeper meaning in this defeat and in the weapon employed to achieve it. 

I have a longstanding suspicion that The Hound represents the night - possibly the Long Night - and he also wins a tourney (the Hand's Tourney) when Ser Loras concedes to him out of gratitude for saving him from Ser Gregor. 

To further complicate things, I suspect Ser Gregor and Bitterbridge might represent Rorge and Biter. There is symbolism of taking a bite out of someone's cheek (and of Renly biting a peach) that may represent a solar eclipse. 

We're going to need to see Brienne, Ser Loras and Sandor Clegane (or maybe Lem Lemoncloak wearing the Hound helmet) come together to restore the "sun," I suspect. 

[Tucu]

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Nice, “Penrose lances and Tarth Arrows..” make more sense now.

 

Brienne uses a morningstar now that I think of it.

Yes, the knight with the cobalt blue armor (like the sky in many quotes) and the morningstar is unmasked as the maiden daughter of the EvenStar. Might be related to the Lightbringer/Nissa Nissa or even the Sword of the Morning symbolism.