Wow, I never noticed that v.17

[SiSt]

On 3/7/2019 at 9:33 PM, hiemal said:

New thought to me, anyways:

Tyrion lost his nose in order to resemble the Sphinx in Egypt.

The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler after all. 

Also noticed the many mentions of "twin valyrian sphinxes" in the chamber of the small council in KL. Seems a possible hint on the parentage of Cersei and Jamie. 

[hiemal]

17 hours ago, SiSt said:

The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler after all. 

Also noticed the many mentions of "twin valyrian sphinxes" in the chamber of the small council in KL. Seems a possible hint on the parentage of Cersei and Jamie. 

Quote

...and a pair of Valyrian sphinxes flanked the door, eyes of polished garnet smoldering in black marble faces.

AGoT

Quote

...Tyrion paused to admire the pair of Valyrian sphinxes that guarded the door, affecting an air of casual confidence. Cersei could smell weakness the way a dog smells fear.

ACoK

It does, doesn't it? If the "traditional" sphinxes are guardians of knowledge, I wonder what Valyrian sphinxes guard?

Quote

The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon's body and a woman's face.

"A dragon queen," said Tyrion. "A pleasant omen."

"Her king is missing." Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines.

ADWD

 

Could this hint at Cersei and Jaimie's rift as well as Dany's marital misfortunes?

[Seams]

18 hours ago, SiSt said:

The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler after all. 

Also noticed the many mentions of "twin valyrian sphinxes" in the chamber of the small council in KL. Seems a possible hint on the parentage of Cersei and Jamie. 

 

58 minutes ago, hiemal said:

...and a pair of Valyrian sphinxes flanked the door, eyes of polished garnet smoldering in black marble faces.

AGoT

Garnets are associated with Targaryens, I believe, or with the people who are loyal to them. The Lannisters are all about rubies.

I don't think all twin references allude to Cersei and Jaime. We have the Frey castle called The Twins and the Redwyne twins and some others.

[Lollygag]

On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 1:36 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Jeyne Poole got married about halfway into adwd (8 chapters before Aryas 1st) so when Arya killed Dareon she, unknown to her, was doing so as Lady of Winterfell, which would be one of her responsibilities

Perhaps literally. Going on at the same time was Arya-parallel Asha's proxy marriage. The case can be made that Jeyne Poole was a proxy and Arya is literally the Stark of Winterfell. The symbolism of Arya's escape from Roose seems to point in this direction. 

[Lollygag]

As for the sphynxes, GRRM really emphasizes various forms of rule by committee. Monarchs are all heavily dependent on their advisors and counsels. Essos loves its formal and informal triarchs. There really isn't any truly autonomous ruler in the series. The sphynxes are in the counsel room which is a single governing body made up of various animals and house sigils are often animals. It always seemed like the point was working together which seems to be a big theme of the books: united we stand, divided we fall. 

As for Tyrion, he seems poised to be the common factor in the big players here: he's a Lannister and Jaime the future if unwilling Lord of Casterly Rock owes him. Looks like he's intersecting with Dany soon and he's won over Aegon. All of the Starks except Arya (think that's coming up) has a positive view of Tyrion. He's married to Sansa. Even Catelyn/Stoneheart is now positive towards Tyrion: Jaime notes that Catelyn set him free because she was placing her trust in Tyrion, not him. If Tyrion's a Targ or a chimera of Aerys' and Tywin's kids, he's the one who could potentially unite the 3 big houses in the series. 

3 hours ago, Seams said:

Garnets are associated with Targaryens, I believe, or with the people who are loyal to them. The Lannisters are all about rubies.

I think Rhaegar's armor had rubies? I remember Tywin dissing garnets as a poor-man's ruby which is often how they're viewed in real life (I disagree). 

[hiemal]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

 

Garnets are associated with Targaryens, I believe, or with the people who are loyal to them. The Lannisters are all about rubies.

I don't think all twin references allude to Cersei and Jaime. We have the Frey castle called The Twins and the Redwyne twins and some others.

Of course not- I started a thread a while back to try and discuss twin imagery and other kinds of dualities that keeps popping up like dandelions, but it was pretty vague stuff and I got distracted by my own "cleverness:

Jaime and Cersei embody so many different dualities that it's almost hard not to discuss the topic and not have them pretty well front and center. I'm not sure what kind of duality the Valyrian Sphinxes represent, either the pair in KL or the seperated duo in Essos. Tyrion refers to a "dragon queen" which of course most urgentlyrecalls Dany and her Moon and Stars and if that pair of sphinxes guarded anything it is long plundered or forgotten.

Hmmmm, spitballing here but perhaps sphinxes of the Valyrian variety guard secrets and the traditional sort knowledge? That seems a good duality...

[Jô Maltese]

8 hours ago, hiemal said:

The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon's body and a woman's face.

"A dragon queen," said Tyrion. "A pleasant omen."

"Her king is missing." Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines.

ADWD

As you pointed earlier with the missing nose, many of us think that Tyrion is the Sphinx of the riddle. Many of us also think that he is half a dragon (AJT, half-man), as in this quote, a small dragon snarling in the midst of all (see @Lollygag's post above).

If the theories above are right, then this "pleasant omen" might not only point at Dany but at Tyrion as well: he could well be the missing sphinx, the missing king... 

[hiemal]

27 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said:

As you pointed earlier with the missing nose, many of us think that Tyrion is the Sphinx of the riddle.

Myself included, or at least, I think he is a sphinx. I'm more inclined to consider him a non-valyrian variety, although I don't discount the possibility at all and have a slew of tinfoils hanging from that very pin.

Arya is making herself a sphinx piecemeal by way of Names and Sarella has riddled her own into a mirror. Jaime and Cersei would make a matching pair, and in true Valyrian style.  I'm not sure Dany is a sphinx? She is not, in my mind, a bit of this and a bit of that nor is she a guardian of anything. She is all dragon.

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I actually never realized that Catelyn had brought up Edmure's hate for singers. 

"Oh, I can see that," Catelyn said. "Lord Tully is fond of song, I hear. No doubt you've been to Riverrun."
"A hundred times," the singer said airily. "They keep a chamber for me, and the young lord is like a brother."
Catelyn smiled, wondering what Edmure would think of that. Another singer had once bedded a girl her brother fancied; he had hated the breed ever since. (Catelyn V, AGoT 28)

The we find out the identity of the singer in question;

Tom overheard him, and broke off his song. "You're a young fool Archer. If we go to Riverrun it will only be to collect her ransom, won't be no time for you to sit about making bows. Be thankful if you get out with your hide. Lord Hoster was hanging outlaws before you were shaving. And that son of his . . . a man who hates music can't be trusted, I always say . . ."
"It's not music he hates," said Lem. "It's you, fool."
"Well, he has no cause. The wench was willing to make a man of him, is it my fault he drank too much to do the deed?"
Lem snorted through his broken nose. "Was it you who made a song of it, or some other bloody arse in love with his own voice?"
"I only sang it once," Tom complained. "And who's to say the song was about him? 'Twas a song about a fish."
"A floppy fish." (Arya IV, ASOS 22)

And lastly this (which is honestly one of the reasons I enjoy the books so much, the way GRRM goes back to the super tiny mysteries in his story), Edmure's sort of "trauma" when he sees Tom.

Edmure Tully finally found his voice. "I could climb out of this tub and kill you where you stand, Kingslayer."
"You could try." Jaime waited. When Edmure made no more to rise, he said, "I'll leave you to enjoy your food. Singer, play for our guest whilst he eats. You know the song, I trust."
"The one about the rain? Aye, my lord. I know it."
Edmure seemed to see the man for the first time. "No. Not him. Get him away from me."
"Why, it's just a song," said Jaime. He cannot have that bad a voice." (Jaime VI, AFFC 38)

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 3/13/2019 at 3:42 PM, Jô Maltese said:

As you pointed earlier with the missing nose, many of us think that Tyrion is the Sphinx of the riddle. Many of us also think that he is half a dragon (AJT, half-man), as in this quote, a small dragon snarling in the midst of all (see @Lollygag's post above).

If the theories above are right, then this "pleasant omen" might not only point at Dany but at Tyrion as well: he could well be the missing sphinx, the missing king... 

There does seem to be something going on with Tyrion and the sphinxes. There are two Valyrian sphinxes that adorn the door to the small council in the Red Keep, and dialogue takes place with Tyrion looking/touching them. That said I still cant subscribe to the Tyrion is a Targ theory because the story would have yet another secret Targaryen. Pretty basic but to me the riddle is the big mystery of the series, Jon's parentage, and his halves a chimera of a dragon and a wolf. This line about sphinxes was likely in the prophecy that Aemon and Rhaegar read. "Dragons riddling sphinxes" also comes up as a Westerosi legend, which to me sounds like Smaug riddling Bilbo and trying to figure out his identity. Also, if the sphinx in Essos is a dragon queen without a king it could be a clue that there will be no Targaryen restoration/king consort for Dany. 

[Jô Maltese]

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

There does seem to be something going on with Tyrion and the sphinxes. There are two Valyrian sphinxes that adorn the door to the small council in the Red Keep, and dialogue takes place with Tyrion looking/touching them. That said I still cant subscribe to the Tyrion is a Targ theory because the story would have yet another secret Targaryen. Pretty basic but to me the riddle is the big mystery of the series, Jon's parentage, and his halves a chimera of a dragon and a wolf. This line about sphinxes was likely in the prophecy that Aemon and Rhaegar read. "Dragons riddling sphinxes" also comes up as a Westerosi legend, which to me sounds like Smaug riddling Bilbo and trying to figure out his identity. Also, if the sphinx in Essos is a dragon queen without a king it could be a clue that there will be no Targaryen restoration/king consort for Dany. 

This is so typical of the AJT unbelievers : despite all the textual material pointing at the possibility - evidence that you acknowledge yourself (Tyrion is a sphinx, i.e half a dragon, and the chimera definitely points at Tyrion with his mismatched eyes), you refute the theory just because you don't like it story-wise. Well, I am not sure GRRM gives a damn about what the readers would like to happen in his story.

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

This is so typical of the AJT unbelievers : despite all the textual material pointing at the possibility - evidence that you acknowledge yourself (Tyrion is a sphinx, i.e half a dragon, and the chimera definitely points at Tyrion with his mismatched eyes), you refute the theory just because you don't like it story-wise. Well, I am not sure GRRM gives a damn about what the readers would like to happen in his story.

That's presumptive. I'd believe it if the evidence was stronger. I just don't think it is. If its true there should be as much foreshadowing as Jon's parentage, and it should stand alone independent of his convergence with Dany. For example, how do we know it's not simply foreshadowing Tyrion becoming Hand to a Targaryen?

I'm also wary of red herrings thrown in to distract from the obvious and send readers down dead ends. 

For example, R+L=J clues are strong--> adds in some disconnected minutiae to throw readers off the scent, not only about Jon's parentage, but now Tyrion's parentage is also questioned (and not in the main narrative either, in a companion book). Then enter another hidden targ with fAegon. Result: People think Jon is less important than he is. And if everyone is a secret Targ does it even matter anymore?

[Jô Maltese]

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That's presumptive. I'd believe it if the evidence was stronger. I just don't think it is.

I completely accept this, but you did not say it in your first post! Now, there might be more evidence than you think:

 

 

[St Daga]

On 3/13/2019 at 9:11 AM, Seams said:

Garnets are associated with Targaryens, I believe, or with the people who are loyal to them. The Lannisters are all about rubies.

I have usually connected the Targaryen's with rubies. Perhaps it's because of "Rhaegar's rubies" and the Ruby Ford, but Aegon I's crown was also known for it's rubies, and this crown was worn by several more Targaryen kinds. Rubies certainly do seem to be connected to the Lannister's. But when it comes to garnet's, I don't see them as being connected to the Targaryen's specifically. Garnets are connected to the Valyrian sphinxes, for certain.

I always found it interesting that Tywin claims that "Garnet's lack the fire" of rubies. I think of Targaryen's as connected to fire, but the story does perhaps imply that garnet's might be associated with blood, and since Fire and Blood is the Targaryen motto, I suppose both rubies and garnet's can be associated with them. 

[Seams]

42 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I have usually connected the Targaryen's with rubies. Perhaps it's because of "Rhaegar's rubies" and the Ruby Ford, but Aegon I's crown was also known for it's rubies, and this crown was worn by several more Targaryen kinds. Rubies certainly do seem to be connected to the Lannister's. But when it comes to garnet's, I don't see them as being connected to the Targaryen's specifically. Garnets are connected to the Valyrian sphinxes, for certain.

I always found it interesting that Tywin claims that "Garnet's lack the fire" of rubies. I think of Targaryen's as connected to fire, but the story does perhaps imply that garnet's might be associated with blood, and since Fire and Blood is the Targaryen motto, I suppose both rubies and garnet's can be associated with them. 

Good points about the Targaryen rubies. There are so many rubies that I haven't tried to make a systematic analysis, so my generalization about the Lannister association was probably not on solid ground. I do think there is a bury / ruby association, but I don't know what that might be. And the gravedigger is the man associated with burying, so that's not a strong Lannister clue or a Targaryen clue (as far as we know).

My garnet theory stems largely from the chipped garnet carried by Ser Arlan of Pennytree and inherited by Ser Duncan the Tall. But I was also intrigued that the garnets for the wolf's head pommel in Long Claw were obtained by Sam Tarly at Mole's Town. I think that's very significant.

Maybe garnets are used for eyes and rubies for blood?

[SiSt]

12 minutes ago, Seams said:

Maybe garnets are used for eyes and rubies for blood?

Not by the Boltons. Ramsay has a garnet like a drop of blood in his ear, and Roose has a whole coat covered in them. 

[St Daga]

23 hours ago, Seams said:

My garnet theory stems largely from the chipped garnet carried by Ser Arlan of Pennytree and inherited by Ser Duncan the Tall. But I was also intrigued that the garnets for the wolf's head pommel in Long Claw were obtained by Sam Tarly at Mole's Town. I think that's very significant.

Maybe garnets are used for eyes and rubies for blood?

I find garnet's to be interesting in the story. They are of course associated with Longclaw, but also the Bolton's (blood, I think) and the crabs of House Celtigar, which is a family of Valyrian descent, although they are not dragon riders. Brienne of Tarth is also associaeted with garnet's sown onto a gown she wore as a child. The saddles of the camel infantry of Qarth are studded with garnet's and rubies and I think Qarth is pretty important to whatever exodus sent people from Essos to Westeros thousands of years ago.

As to eyes, once Jon associates Ghost's eyes as being darker than garnets, but another time, in relation to eyes, Jon associates the sap of the weirwoods in the circle of nine tree's north of the wall as being as red and hard as rubies. So, it that instance, the weirwoods are associated with rubies, which most of the time, I associate in my head with fire, as per Tywin's concept of rubies.

Most of the time, the red sap of the weirwood is compared to blood, but this case is different and stands out to me. I have wondered if that idea of the weirwood sap eyes being like rubies and rubies being like fire could indicate that that circle of nine weirwoods will some day be set afire, and even perhaps by Jon! 

[Seams]

22 hours ago, St Daga said:

I find garnet's to be interesting in the story. They are of course associated with Longclaw . . .

I didn't go into it in that initial analysis of garnets (in the chipped garnet link in my previous comment) but there is probably also wordplay in "garnets" and "strange," which would bring in symbolism of The Stranger.

Ser Ilyn Payne, the King's Justice, is also part of the Stranger motif. (Fwiw, he uses the sword Ice to behead Ned but then has a silver sword with a dragonglass pommel carved into a death's head with ruby eyes.) I always thought it was significant that Ned follows the letter of the law, beheading Night's Watch deserters as soon as he encounters them, but Lord Commander Mormont seems to take a more forgiving approach and expresses some mild regret at losing a good man like Gared. When Mormont's sword, Longclaw, is remade with a wolf's head and garnet eyes, Jon uses it to behead Janos Slynt for insubordination.

So maybe the garnet eyes cause the sword to be more like Ned Stark's "King's JustICE" sword, Ice?

This might help to clarify the difference: garnets might be cold-blooded, while rubies are warm-blooded?

But that wouldn't explain why Ser Ilyn's silver sword (at Joffrey's wedding feast) has ruby eyes.

[St Daga]

On 3/19/2019 at 8:02 AM, Seams said:

I didn't go into it in that initial analysis of garnets (in the chipped garnet link in my previous comment) but there is probably also wordplay in "garnets" and "strange," which would bring in symbolism of The Stranger.

If garnet's do connect to the Stranger, then perhaps this is a tie to the Valyrian sphinxes and their garnet eyes being connected to the stranger also. But if garnet's are cool, that doesn't really fit the idea of Valyria, with it's volcano's and fire and heat. It's certainly a bit of mystery to me where GRRM might be going with the garnet references. I had thought of them as being associated with blood, and therefore the weirwoods, but we have that one instance of Jon commenting on the eyes of a weirwood looking like rubies, which really threw any theory I was trying to form right into the garbage! 

[Seams]

On 3/17/2019 at 10:24 AM, St Daga said:

Garnets are connected to the Valyrian sphinxes, for certain.

The garnets may be a key to sorting out the sphinx riddle. (Worth doing, probably, as it is my understanding that the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler.)

I have a very strong suspicion that GRRM fine-tunes the wiki from time-to-time, ensuring that details that matter to him are included in certain entries. Here are a few points that the wiki makes about sphinxes:

Quote

A sphinx is a mythical creature, made up of a bit of this, and a bit of that: a human face, the body of a lion, the wings of a hawk.^[1]

In our world, and most likely George R. R. Martin’s, some traditions believe that sphinxes take away the sins of devotees when they enter a temple and ward off evil in general. A sphinx or sphinxes are therefore often found in a strategic position, for example, near entrances or a temple gateway. Often they are found as female-male pairs. Here, too, the sphinx serves a protective function. Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales.^[1]

Sphinxes can be made of jade with eyes of onyx.^[1] as well as black marble with eyes of polished garnets.

The council chamber door of the Red Keep is flanked by Valyrian sphinxes with eyes of polished garnets smoldering in black marble faces.

Once in Oldtown Sam enters the gates of the Citadel, which are flanked by a pair of towering green sphinxes.

In sum:

• Made up of a combination of human and animal features.
• The combination of animals can vary.
• Magical ability to ward off evil, take away sins.
• Guard doorways or gates.
• Come in male / female pairs.
• Speak in riddles.
• The materials seem to come in two combinations: jade / onyx and black marble / garnets.

When I was working on decoding colors in ASOIAF, I sensed that it is often combinations of colors that take on special meaning, although some colors can stand alone. Colors are often teamed up with flowers, birds, bugs and fruit but also gems. The gems seem like the significant thing for our analysis here because of the onyx and garnets.

But.

In our world, garnets are not always red. Jade is not always green. The Internet tells me that onyx is usually black but it can be layered black and white. I don't know whether GRRM uses that ambiguity when he inserts these gems and stones into the series, or whether he is going with the commonly-accepted jade = green and garnets = red. My point being that we may not be able to entirely rely on color analysis to understand the meaning of garnets or of sphinxes.

If the jade is green, however, the jade and black marble color combination seems like a strong allusion to the civil war known as the Dance of the Dragons, with one team known as the Greens (the Queen's Party, Alicent Hightower, backing Aegon II) and the other known as the Blacks (the party of the princess, Rhaenyra Targaryen, who actually wore a red and black dress at the critical feast before the King's Landing tournament. So red and black would be a second color combination to help us pin down a connection).

The Hightowers are closely associated with the Citadel as it is close to their seat in Oldtown. Don't you know, we see "towering" green sphinxes at the gates of the Citadel. In the prologue of AFfC, Pate notes that Alleras, known as the Sphinx, has onyx eyes like the towering green sphinx at the gate of the Citadel.

Targaryens are associated with the Red Keep, and there we see a pair of black sphinxes. If all black sphinxes have garnet eyes, and black sphinxes are associated with the party of the Princess / Targaryens, this could strengthen the notion that garnets are linked to Targaryens.

The idea didn't originate with me but, based on a fairly close literary reading of the books, I agree with the idea that Tyrion is a chimera, with Tywin and King Aerys both contributing DNA to fertilize eggs from Joanna that joined to make one baby. He has different-colored eyes and even two-tone hair. The chimera idea would fit with the suggestion that he is a "sphinx" - made up of parts of different animals. In Tyrion's case, the animals would be lion and dragon ( = serpent). The loss of Tyrion's nose strengthens the comparison as the famous sphinx in the Valley of the Kings in Egypt had its nose shot off by soldiers in Napoleon's army.

So what color of sphinx would Tyrion be? We get a clue at Joffrey's wedding feast, when the singer Galyeon of Cuy (Ser Emmon Cuy was Renly's yellow Rainbow Guard member, fwiw) is singing of "the dark lord . . . black was his hair and black was his soul." Tyrion is bored by the endless song and inserts new lyrics as Galyeon sings:

"The dark lord assembled his legions, they gathered around him like crows. And thirsty for blood they boarded their ships . . . "

". . . and cut off poor Tyrion's nose," Tyrion finished.

(ASoS, Tyrion VIII, Chap. 60)

If the Black team cut off Tyrion's nose, does that make him a Team Green sphinx? All through this Galyeon song, Tyrion is conversing with Ser Garlan Tyrell and his wife, Leonette Fossoway. I think Ser Garlan is a symbolic (not literal) Targaryen (Anagram hint: Garlan Tyrell = Targaryen lll) but the primary Tyrell color is decidedly green and Renly even wore green armor after he married Margaery. We don't know if Leonette is a red apple or green apple Fossoway, but she is part of the fruit and color symbolism, and the presence of Fossoways and apples are often good clues that we are in the present of an ascendant king. So it seems as if Tyrion is pretty clearly green in this scene.

I don't think that necessarily means that Tyrion supports House Hightower, just that he is on a team different from whatever team is associated with Black. Hmm. I'm trying to remember which character wears a lot of black?

But we are told and shown that sphinxes come in male / female pairs. While traveling with Illyrio on the road to Ghoyan Drohe ( = dragon hey ho), Tyrion observes a female sphinx with a dragon body crouched by the side of a road. Illyrio notes that it is missing its "king" although the base for the second sphinx is still in place. (The male sphinx was hauled off to Vaes Dothrak, which seems very similar to the Winterfell crypt where "statues" dwell under imprisoning iron swords, ready for rebirth. The contrasting Dothraki view of rebirth may be represented by the fact that swords are not allowed within the bounds of Vaes Dothrak.) We are not told what color the sphinx is. But the comparison of the lone dragon-bodied "queen" to the widowed Dany seems pretty obvious. (Tyrion's remark of, "A pleasant omen" upon seeing the sphinx might hold a clue about Dany as well. We know that Dany is searching for a lemon tree and Tyrion is searching for Tysha, who is a crofter's daughter, also known as a peasant. The sphinx might be a "peasant lemon," representing a unification of the things sought by both Dany and Tyrion - a chimera, if you will. But I know my anagram obsession is not everyone's idea of a valid clue so feel free to ignore that.)

(Clouding the equation of "road sphinx = Dany" is Tyrion's dream of Shae and Tysha immediately after the "omen" of the sphinx encounter. But we know that GRRM works in "rebirths," and Tyrion's feminine ideal could be wrapped up in all three of these characters without contradicting the internal logic of the novels.)

Who will be the king to complete the sphinx pair on the road to Ghoyan Drohe? And will it be a jade or black marble sphinx?

Here's a detail I omitted earlier, to mess up all of the careful "Tyrion = green sphinx" logic I just laid out:

"The dark lord brooded high in his tower," Galyeon began, "in a castle as black as the night."

Here we have another Hightower, associated with black, not green. The Jon Snow connection is stronger, with the reference to Castle Black and the earlier reference to being surrounded by crows. You could make a case that this dark lord is Stannis, however, which seems to be the topmost layer of meaning for a song about the Battle of the Blackwater and the challenge to Joffrey's rule.

So, as with the garnets, GRRM is not going to make easy for us the green / black; Hightower / Targaryen sphinx distinction.