Wow, I never noticed that v.17

[Corvo the Crow]

Nine. Can anyone help me with it?

It seems to me the number nine may be important to First men.

Robb’s bronze crown has nine iron spikes.

Weirwood grove new brothers say their vows has nine trees.

Somewhat artificial but; First men have dispersed into nine major regions/kingdoms in Westeros; Beyond the Wall, North, RL, Vale, WL, II, Reach, SL, Dorne.

 

Khal Drogo’s manse has nine towers

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The nine-towered manse of Khal Drogo sat beside the waters of the bay, its high brick walls overgrown with pale ivy. It had been given to the khal by the magisters of Pentos, Illyrio told them. The Free Cities were always generous with the horselords. "It is not that we fear these barbarians," Illyrio would explain with a smile. "The Lord of Light would hold our city walls against a million Dothraki, or so the red priests promise … yet why take chances, when their friendship comes so cheap?"

Dothraki are not first men, but... Dothraki use horses just like FM did going to Westeros. Curiously, the warlike horseriding Dothraki have peaceful sheepherding cousins, Lhazareen. First men are also a warlike, horseriding people. Do they also have sheepherding peaceful cousins perhaps? If you said yes you are right! Valyrians are their cousins. Daynes and Hightowers would be proof enough I believe and I had some posts and a half baked thread, which didn’t get much attention, on this.

 

NW had 998 commanders so far, with Jon dead/thought to be dead, the new commander, if chosen, would be 999th.

Nine days pass with nine failed votes before Jon is chosen.

FotS stuff but, when the sparrows burst in, Septon Luceon was 9 votes away from beimg chosem HS.

Varamyr dies 9 times in his animals before dying in his own body.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

Perhaps Sweet Robyn related

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I have more squires than I know what to do with. Every time I take a piss, they fight for the right to hold my cock. And you have six sons, my lord, not four."

"Once. Robert was my youngest and never strong. He died nine days ago, of a looseness of the bowels. Lucas was murdered at the Red Wedding. Walder Frey's fourth wife was a Blackwood, but kinship counts for no more than guest right at the Twins. I should like to bury Lucas beneath the tree, but the Freys have not yet seen fit to return his bones to me."

 

[Jô Maltese]

@Corvo the Crow, "Nine" is daughter of three...

[Seams]

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Nine. Can anyone help me with it?

It seems to me the number nine may be important to First men.

...

Khal Drogo’s manse has nine towers

A lot of the Dothraki stuff seems to echo things going on in Westeros, and @GloubieBoulga long ago posted a casual remark that she thinks the Dothraki are symbolic First Men or northerners. (Sorry, I don't remember which was the thread on which she mentioned this).

I tried to look for a pattern in the lower numbers at one point, but it didn't lead to a clear insight. I think I was hoping that we would find a symbolic version of the twelve "friends" of the last hero. But numbers are obviously used in more ways than just labeling characters, so my preconceived goal was probably tainting my initial approach:

As for the number nine, in that thread in the link, @Archmaester_Aemma came up with a number of the uses you cite and a few additional examples:

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Finally, the last one I have spotted seems to be 9, but I'm not sure what to make of it exactly. There are 9 rivers in the riverlands which is itself a crossing over point and home to the Trident (dropping a 3 reference within it too). Varamyr has 9 deaths - 8 animal ones and his true death (in which he accidentally causes Thistle to look like a weirwood tree). There are 9 sword points to the King of Winters crown, made of iron and bronze to fight against the cold. There's the weirwood grove of nine in which all old gods worshipping black brothers take their vows. And there's the Knight of Ninestars in the Vale and he is specifically described as having icy blue eyes and a beak of a nose. ASOIAF is actually referenced in the literature section of the number 9 for having 9 Westerosi regions (The Seven Kingdoms + Dorne and Crownlands) and the 9 Free Cities. Not entirely sure how to interpret it, but there could be a link there to the Nine Worlds of Norse myth and thus a link to Yggdrasil and thus weirwoods??

Instead of being unique to the First Men, I would concur with the people who analyze it as "three threes". We know that GRRM uses the number three over and over to call attention to important words or phrases, to symbolize "completeness" (three heads of the dragon) and for prophecies (three fires, three mounts, three treasons). So nine may symbolize the kind of completeness that comes from attaining three threes.

(P.S. I don't want you to think I'm stalking you, responding to every one of the topics you raise on this thread! I love the variety and attention to detail of this thread, and you have been raising very interesting points in a number of recent posts. Feel free to send me a message if you need me to back off a little.)

[Jô Maltese]

18 minutes ago, Seams said:

(...)

Instead of being unique to the First Men, I would concur with the people who analyze it as "three threes". We know that GRRM uses the number three over and over to call attention to important words or phrases, to symbolize "completeness" (three heads of the dragon) and for prophecies (three fires, three mounts, three treasons). So nine may symbolize the kind of completeness that comes from attaining three threes.

(...)

Yes. See my post above.

[Seams]

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Robb’s bronze crown has nine iron spikes

P.S. I think it's significant that, even though it was custom-made for Robb by the smith at Riverrun, the replica crown does not fit his head. Catelyn observes that Robb has to take measures to get it to stay on or to keep from drooping. I also suspect that the loss of the original crown (taken from Torrhen Stark by Aegon I and whereabouts currently unknown) as well as the oft-repeated official name - the Ancient Crown of the Kings of Winter - must be significant.

[Corvo the Crow]

19 hours ago, Seams said:

(P.S. I don't want you to think I'm stalking you, responding to every one of the topics you raise on this thread! I love the variety and attention to detail of this thread, and you have been raising very interesting points in a number of recent posts. Feel free to send me a message if you need me to back off a little.)

Gods no! I like the colorfulness of the topics you are always bringing up. If anything, I should be honored!

On FM and Dothraki, especially Drogo and Robb;

Robb, commanding an all horse army, was in a sense a “horse lord”. That manse crowned with nine towers was an ill fit for Drogo, just like Robb’s crown was to him. Dany and Jeyne both bring nothing but their love and beauty to their marriage; no wealth, no army. Dany brought forth an abomination as their only child, perhaps because Miri maz duur gave her poision just like Tyanna did to Maegor’s brides. Jeyne’s mother Sybelle was also poisoning her to prevent a pregnancy. Are there more parallels between these two?

 

Something small I caught up while posting this; Drogo’s manse is crowned with 9 towers and is a walking, talking jewelry shop on foot.

whereas Mance is this

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He had no crown nor scepter, no robes of silk and velvet, but it was plain to Jon that Mance Rayder was a king in more than name.

 

[SirArthur]

19 hours ago, Seams said:

Instead of being unique to the First Men, I would concur with the people who analyze it as "three threes". We know that GRRM uses the number three over and over to call attention to important words or phrases, to symbolize "completeness" (three heads of the dragon) and for prophecies (three fires, three mounts, three treasons). So nine may symbolize the kind of completeness that comes from attaining three threes.

That's why I am so exited about LC 999. It should be a surprise commander.

[Corvo the Crow]

Something to wow you all!

 

Remember the First King and Barrow Kings who claimed descent from him?

 

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The rising sun sent fingers of light through the pale white mists of dawn. A wide plain spread out beneath them, bare and brown, its flatness here and there relieved by long, low hummocks. Ned pointed them out to his king. "The barrows of the First Men."

Robert frowned. "Have we ridden onto a graveyard?"

"There are barrows everywhere in the north, Your Grace," Ned told him. "This land is old."

"And cold," Robert grumbled, pulling his cloak more tightly around himself. The guard had reined up well behind them, at the bottom of the ridge. "Well, I did not bring you out here to talk of graves or bicker about your bastard. There was a rider in the night, from Lord Varys in King's Landing. Here." The king pulled a paper from his belt and handed it to Ned.

The North, in it’s entirety, is/was Barrowlands. The story of the First King ruling all the FM may have some truth to it after all. 

[GloubieBoulga]

23 hours ago, Seams said:

A lot of the Dothraki stuff seems to echo things going on in Westeros, and @GloubieBoulga long ago posted a casual remark that she thinks the Dothraki are symbolic First Men or northerners. (Sorry, I don't remember which was the thread on which she mentioned this).

Thanks for the quote. I don't remember at all when and for what I wrote something like that, but with the time, I think now that there is more than symbolism between Dothrakis and First Men (it's long to explain, but I thought about a migration from west to east, just the reverse of what the official story is telling with Andals; perhaps not a massiv migration, but at least the migration of a leader (a "princess", a "Nymeria"), coming from Westeros, conquering a part of Essos and giving birth to future valyrian dragons or princes dragons (because of her/his blood probably full of "skinchanger's magic" after the Pact with the Children)... a bit like Daenerys, in fact, but Daenerys will probably achieve what this very old leader never achieved, i.e. come back to Westeros and put a real end to the "Long Night", after the probable devastation of Essos)

 

Concerning the numbers, it seems that they have different fonctions and tell different stories :

- the trio is telling about human relationship : love and hate relations and also relations between brothers and sisters. So I dare to bet that in the origins of the very long cycle, there were 3 sisters (remind the "rape of the 3 sisters", for example; but we can find the shema of the "3 women/sisters" during the serie with Catelyn/Lyanna/Lysa, or Catelyn/Lysa/Cersei, or Catelyn/Cersei/Lyanna, aso : in this trio, there is always a missing "sister", a dead sister; but GRRM likes also playing with the genders, so I wouldn't be surprised if the trio Doran/Oberyn/Elia was playing the same part : Doran has some similarities with an "old queen" (as a litterar type, I mean), and Oberyn uses as a weapon a spear, which is used in all the saga only by women, especially wildlings women; Oberyn also fathered only girls), and their respectiv children shared love and hate stories. 

- 9 : is about kingdoms, crowns, weirwood's grove, so I suspect this was the number of the lineages who received the "gift" from the Children (i.e. the ability to skinchange) and these originals lineages had shared the power on Westeros (at least on a very large north part)... and they also probably made wars.

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

The North, in it’s entirety, is/was Barrowlands. The story of the First King ruling all the FM may have some truth to it after all. 

Yes, I think so, but probably not for long. Perhaps (but not for sure !) only the time for one king. There is a big litterar example with king Arthur, who is supposed to have unified and ruled a large kingdom, which did not survived to his death.

 

- 7 (in fact, it's 6+1) is about companionship, a group originaly devoted to a leader (imo a female leader). The seventh is very intriguing because very often absent/dead/disappeared/taboo : for example, in the very first prologue, the Others are 6; but in Samwell's chapter from ASOS, there is only 1 Other; other example, the Kingsguard with his leader always missing during the serie : Barristan flying Westeros and joining Daenerys, Jaime prisoner and after that without his hand, and then sent to Riverlands and chosing Brienne against his sister Cersei to protect Sansa Stark : the 2 of them chose a young princess against a queen mother.

 

[Lady Anna]

I've been thinking about how Ygritte is ''kissed by fire'' and how that connects to Jon. First she's not only kissed by fire due to her hair, but because Jon, who kissed her, is half-fire (Targaryen). Conversely Jon may be kissed by fire again in the future (Daenerys or Melisandre in the context of his resurrection).

[Corvo the Crow]

Does this look familiar?

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"Why?" wondered Tyrion. "Meereen is long leagues across the sea. How has this sweet child queen offended Old Volantis?"

"Sweet?" Qavo laughed. "If even half the stories coming back from Slaver's Bay are true, this child is a monster. They say that she is bloodthirsty, that those who speak against her are impaled on spikes to die lingering deaths. They say she is a sorceress who feeds her dragons on the flesh of newborn babes, an oathbreaker who mocks the gods, breaks truces, threatens envoys, and turns on those who have served her loyally. They say her lust cannot be sated, that she mates with men, women, eunuchs, even dogs and children, and woe betide the lover who fails to satisfy her. She gives her body to men to take their souls in thrall."

From here perhaps?

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He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

 

One point for Dan and Jon shipping cult I guess, which I’m not part of. Me, I am Jon and Sansa, after Jon and Val ends with Val dead.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

28 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

with Val dead

You leave Val alone!

[Jô Maltese]

38 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

We have a mirroring picture here:

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Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice. 

ADwD - Dany VII

Will Dany become the Night's Queen?

 

On Jon + Val, are you referring to the fact that she seems to imply that Jon has stolen her from Jarl and therefore belongs to him if he wants her? I have just realised this on my current re-read:

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We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."

"I never meant to steal you," he said.

ASoS -  Jon III

This was the night before Jarl fell off the Wall...

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Val, Jon remembered. "I was sorry when Jarl fell," he told her.

Val looked at him with pale grey eyes. "He always climbed too fast." She was as fair as he'd remembered, slender, full-breasted, graceful even at rest, with high sharp cheekbones and a thick braid of honey-colored hair that fell to her waist.

ASoS - Jon X

Arrr 

 

Quote

Their breath mingled, a white mist in the air. Jon Snow drew back and said, "The only thanks I want is—"

"—Tormund Giantsbane. Aye." Val pulled up the hood of her bearskin. The brown pelt was well salted with grey. "Before I go, one question. Did you kill Jarl, my lord?"

"The Wall killed Jarl."

"So I'd heard. But I had to be sure."

"You have my word. I did not kill him." Though I might have if things had gone otherwise.

"This is farewell, then," she said, almost playfully.

Jon Snow was in no mood for it. It is too cold and dark to play, and the hour is too late.

ADwD - Jon VIII

***

Florent's face grew flushed with anger. "So it is true. You mean to keep her for yourself, I see it now. The bastard wants his father's seat."

The bastard refused his father's seat. If the bastard had wanted Val, all he had to do was ask for her.

ADwD - Jon X

***

Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

"Have you been trying to steal my wolf?" he asked her.

"Why not? If every woman had a direwolf, men would be much sweeter. Even crows."

"Har!" laughed Tormund Giantsbane. "Don't bandy words with this one, Lord Snow, she's too clever for the likes o' you and me. Best steal her quick, before Toregg wakes up and takes her first."

What had that oaf Axell Florent said of Val? "A nubile girl, not hard to look upon. Good hips, good breasts, well made for whelping children." All true enough, but the wildling woman was so much more. She had proved that by finding Tormund where seasoned rangers of the Watch had failed. She may not be a princess, but she would make a worthy wife for any lord.

But that bridge had been burned a long time ago, and Jon himself had thrown the torch.

"She won't mind. Will you, girl?"

Val patted the long bone knife on her hip. "Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him."

(...) He turned to Val. "My lady. With me, if you please."

"The crow commands, the captive must obey." Her tone was playful. "This queen of yours must be fierce if the legs of grown men give out beneath them when they meet her. Should I have dressed in mail instead of wool and fur? These clothes were given to me by Dalla, I would sooner not get bloodstains all over them."

"If words drew blood, you might have cause to fear. I think your clothes are safe enough, my lady.

ADwD - Jon XI

***

As he walked toward the armory, Jon chanced to look up and saw Val standing in her tower window. I'm sorry, he thought. I'm not the man to steal you out of there.

ASoS - Jon XII

Jon seems to know he has already stolen her, but is in no mood for it.

[rotting sea cow]

32 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said:

Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice. 

ADwD - Dany VII

Will Dany become the Night's Queen? 

This is Euron messing up with Dany's dreams, probably through a Glass Candle.

[Corvo the Crow]

@Jô Maltese

On J&V Not exactly that, but perhaps it involves that as well;

Jon and Val will get romantically involved. Does the stealing have any impact on this? I don’t know. Perhaps Val wouldn’t even have looked at Jon but only does so because he stole her? If that’s the case, than stealing is important as well.

 

On Dan and Jon, perhaps I was wrong to say it may become a thing. I’m for a long time of the mind that dany will break hard and become evil, that is, if you can say Aerys II was evil. That lines made me think that she may become a night queen equievalent and Jon is the LC of NW so... but her thrall doesn’t have to be a LC for her to become a NQ character, right?

[Corvo the Crow]

17 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

You leave Val alone!

Wish I could...

[The Fattest Leech]

On 4/9/2019 at 9:57 AM, Jô Maltese said:

We have a mirroring picture here:

Will Dany become the Night's Queen?

 

On Jon + Val, are you referring to the fact that she seems to imply that Jon has stolen her from Jarl and therefore belongs to him if he wants her? I have just realised this on my current re-read:

This was the night before Jarl fell off the Wall...

Arrr 

 

Jon seems to know he has already stolen her, but is in no mood for it.

I agree with the Jon and Val story for sure. As far as Jon "is in no mood," he thinks he has to make a bastards choice (because he still knows nothing until he meets Bran in his coma dream), something that does put him in no mood. If you are interested in this topic, there is a thread on it in rereads. Or not? Up to you 

[Lady Anna]

On a wiki binge and:

From Tyrion III, ADWD

"I know, you were hoping for a wheel of cheese." Tyrion turned to Young Griff and gave the lad his most disarming smile. "Blue hair may serve you well in Tyrosh, but in Westeros children will throw stones at you and girls will laugh in your face."

The lad [Young Griff] was taken aback. "My mother was a lady of Tyrosh. I dye my hair in memory of her."

 

From the wiki on Daemon Blackfyre II aka John the Fiddler (who also disguised himself and dyed his hair):

 

''Daemon was born in Westeros, the third son of Daemon I Blackfyre and Rohanne of Tyrosh.''

 

This might be an author's clue on Aegon being a Blackfyre.

 

Edit: Now after making this post I've realized that Daemon's alias was John.... out of all names.....

[Alexis-something-Rose]

12 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

On a wiki binge and:

From Tyrion III, ADWD

"I know, you were hoping for a wheel of cheese." Tyrion turned to Young Griff and gave the lad his most disarming smile. "Blue hair may serve you well in Tyrosh, but in Westeros children will throw stones at you and girls will laugh in your face."

The lad [Young Griff] was taken aback. "My mother was a lady of Tyrosh. I dye my hair in memory of her."

 

From the wiki on Daemon Blackfyre II aka John the Fiddler (who also disguised himself and dyed his hair):

 

''Daemon was born in Westeros, the third son of Daemon I Blackfyre and Rohanne of Tyrosh.''

 

This might be an author's clue on Aegon being a Blackfyre.

 

Edit: Now after making this post I've realized that Daemon's alias was John.... out of all names.....

Counter to that;

Daario is also Tyroshi who dyes his hair blue making his eyes look blue. That is the reason given for Aegon's blue hair, to disguise his violet eyes. And when Daario dyes his hair purple, his eyes look almost purple, like some long lost Valyrian according to Dany