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Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn

Wow, I never noticed that v.17

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I've been thinking how Jon and Stannis are very much alike for years and even posted on it a few times. Here is one more I just noticed

 

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As he watched his uncle lead his horse into the tunnel, Jon had remembered the things that Tyrion Lannister told him on the kingsroad, and in his mind's eye he saw Ben Stark lying dead, his blood red on the snow. The thought made him sick. What was he becoming? Afterward he sought out Ghost in the loneliness of his cell, and buried his face in his thick white fur.

If he must be alone, he would make solitude his armor. Castle Black had no godswood, only a small sept and a drunken septon, but Jon could not find it in him to pray to any gods, old or new. If they were real, he thought, they were as cruel and implacable as winter.

 

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Stannis stood abruptly. "R'hllor. Why is that so hard? They will not love me, you say? When have they ever loved me? How can I lose something I have never owned?" He moved to the south window to gaze out at the moonlit sea. "I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King's Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men."

 

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On 11/14/2018 at 8:45 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Does Stannis wear black?

If so...

Cersei, who is implied to be a possible daughter of the mad king with her madness, wanting to burn the KL and other things wears green frequently.

Renly, descendant of Orys Baratheon who was thought to be a Targaryen bastard, wears green as well.

Battle of the Blackwater's most noticable colors were green and black as well.

If Stannis was wearing black, Wot5K, at least the part for the throne, was Dance of the Dragons v 2.0 and the two greens(Cersei and  Garlan as "Renly" defeated the one black.

 

Are you familiar with this old thread...

 

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On 11/14/2018 at 10:02 AM, Rufus Snow said:

I expect everyone else has seen these thousands of times before, but it only leapt out at me on my latest re-read:

 

There are a lot of those in the Momments of Foreshadowing threads. 

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On 11/16/2018 at 4:09 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

 

This is the Hound during Ned's execution.
 

 

Notice the colors? The white cloak of a KG and dark grey plate, whereas a KG's armor is normally white. I wonder… which of the great houses use these colors also?

 

Nice. 

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On 11/16/2018 at 11:54 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

 I meant he,who first defends and tries to rescue one Stark daughter and then wounds up with the other, wears the colors of Starks.

he iscolored like a stark as well with grey eyes and brown hair.

I am not suggesting he is a secret stark but he is associated with them.

Same scene, Sansa is wearing the colors of another house as well,blue and silver. She later goes to Arryn lands

There is more of that in Game, I think...

  Quote

The Arryns are descended from the Kings of Mountain and Vale, one of the oldest and purest lines of Andal nobility. Their sigil is the moon-and-falcon, white upon a sky blue field.

Appendix, Game

  Quote

Petyr had been a small boy, and he had grown into a small man, an inch or two shorter than Catelyn, slender and quick, with the sharp features she remembered and the same laughing grey-green eyes. He had a little pointed chin beard now, and threads of silver in his dark hair, though he was still shy of thirty. They went well with the silver mockingbird that fastened his cloak. Even as a child, he had always loved his silver.

Catelyn IV, Game

  Quote

His eldest daughter stepped forward hesitantly. She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck.

Eddard III, Game

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From The Sworn Sword, Lord Osgrey describes the climax of the Battle of the Redgrass Field:

. . . Daemon was the Warrior himself that day. No man could stand before him. He broke Lord Arryn's van to pieces and slew the Knight of Ninestars and Wild Wyl Waynwood before coming up against Ser Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard. For near an hour they danced together on their horses, wheeling and circling and slashing as men died all around them. It's said that whenever Blackfyre and Lady Forlorn clashed, you could hear the sound for a league around. It was half a song and half a scream, they say. But when at last the Lady faltered, Blackfyre clove through Ser Gwayne's helm and left him blind and bleeding.

Daemon dismounted to see that his fallen foe was not trampled, and commanded Redtusk to carry him back to the maesters in the rear. And there was his mortal error, for the Raven's Teeth had gained the top of Weeping Ridge, and Bloodraven saw his half brother's royal standard three hundred yards away, and Daemon and his sons beneath it. . . . Thus perished the black dragon and his sons. 

Arryn, Waynwood and Corbray are all part of the Petyr Baelish Lord Protector arc playing out in the Vale now. The knight of Ninestars would represent House Templeton, a loyal bannerman of House (Yohn) Royce, whose current Lord (Symond) has opposed Petyr's claim to being Lord Protector. Peter seems to have gotten control of each of these Houses in some way. He persuades Lysa to poison Jon Arryn and then takes over Jon Arryn's "van": marrying Lysa and then killing her, and becoming Sweetrobin's guardian. He blunts the opposition of Lady Waynwood by buying up her debts and arranging a rich match for her ward, Harrold Hardyng. He also arranges a wealth dowry for Lord Lyonel Corbray in a match with a merchant's daughter and pays Ser Lyn Corbray to infiltrate the lords declarant of the Vale and to merely pretend to oppose Littlefinger's control of the region. The highborn houses are supposed to boycott Lyonel's wedding because of Littlefinger's role in arranging it (and because the bride is not highborn) but Waynwood and Templeton are among the Houses in attendance. 

I suspect House Templeton is a symbolic representation of House Royce. GRRM can't have House Royce be everywhere all the time, so he has to have some bannermen fill in some roles when he needs a Royce conflict to play out. I suspect a similar situation applies to House Darklyn and House Hollard, and the many heirs of Harrenhal. The symbolic house has its own layer of meaning, probably, but their role in the story is closely linked to their House loyalty.

Will House Corbray be an Achilles Heel for Baelish, as it was for Daemon Blackfyre? There is something of an affinity between House Baelish and House Corbray, apparently: Petyr Baelish's great-grandfather was born in Braavos but immigrated to Westeros as a sellsword for Lord Corbray. Lord Lyn appears to oppose him, but he is just pretending while taking payoffs from Littlefinger.

Why did Daemon take such great pains to let Ser Gwayne Corbray be carried from the field, and did House Corbray owe something to House Blackfyre as a result of that fatal courtesy? Is that debt being paid back in the form of cooperation with Petyr Baelish?

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37 minutes ago, Seams said:

There is something of an affinity between House Baelish and House Corbray, apparently: Petyr Baelish's great-grandfather was born in Braavos but immigrated to Westeros as a sellsword for Lord Corbray. Lord Lyn appears to oppose him, but he is just pretending while taking payoffs from Littlefinger.

Why did Daemon take such great pains to let Ser Gwayne Corbray be carried from the field, and did House Corbray owe something to House Blackfyre as a result of that fatal courtesy? Is that debt being paid back in the form of cooperation with Petyr Baelish?

That's because that sellsword from Braavos, Petyr's great-grandfather, was son of Daemon Blackfyre's secret half-brother, and first cousin to Daemon's children. That sellsword's father was secret bastard-son of Aegon IV - the Bastard of Harrenhal.

"The Bastard of Harrenhal was a bastard of House Lothston during the reign of King Daeron II Targaryen. He was defeated by Ser Arlan of Pennytree in the melee at a tourney at King's Landing in 193 AC.[1] His given name has not been published, although "Rivers" is the traditional surname for bastards of noble origin in the riverlands."

Though he didn't remained as a "Rivers", eventually he has became a Whent. He took this last name either when he was knighted, in the span of First Blackfyre Rebellion, or when he has married after the war, and Whent was his wife's family name. After the war House Whent were knights in service of House Lothston.

The Bastard's mother was Jayne Lothston, eight mistress and bastard-daughter of Aegon IV and his first mistress, Falena Stokeworth. Sometime after the war he went to Braavos, where he has fathered a bastard-son. This son later became a sellsword, and went to Westeros, where he was hired by Lord Corbray (because Corbrays were indebted to Blackfyres, and this sellsword was bloodrelated to Blackfyres, so they asked Lord Corbray to hire him).

Besides this illegitimate son from Braavos, the Bastard of Harrenhal also had legitimate children in Westeros, after he got married and became a Whent. First Lord Whent of Harrenhal, who was grandfather of Lady Shella Whent, was half-brother of Petyr's great-grandfather.

Petyr is a Baelish, because, probably, his last name is a clue from GRRM, a Valyrian surname with "ae". Maybe the Bastard of Harrenhal was named Baelor, and his own bastard-son from Braavos was Bael, so his descendants took a last name Bael-ish.

Though it's just a theory. But it's good, that I'm not the only one, who has noticed those clues. The only difference, is that I have connected those dots/clues, and thus, I see a bigger picture.

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

From The Sworn Sword, Lord Osgrey describes the climax of the Battle of the Redgrass Field:

You should take all that Battle of the Regrass Field and flip it around to the Battle of the Trident. Who was where, who died how, Daemon and his twin sons dying alongside him (3 heads of the dragon), Rhaegar's armor smashed into the three heads of the dragon wrought in rubies. It's super interesting.

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@Megorova I remember your oft-shared theory from this earlier thread:

Your family tree seems very plausible to me.

4 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

You should take all that Battle of the Regrass Field and flip it around to the Battle of the Trident. Who was where, who died how, Daemon and his twin sons dying alongside him (3 heads of the dragon), Rhaegar's armor smashed into the three heads of the dragon wrought in rubies. It's super interesting.

I suspect you are right. Two of the Targs on the winning side were nicknamed the Hammer and Anvil, and we know that Robert always used a warhammer as his favorite weapon. GRRM likes to use details like that to draw our attention to an echo of an earlier event. Is there already a thread for this comparison? If so, can you provide a link?

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40 minutes ago, Seams said:

I suspect you are right. Two of the Targs on the winning side were nicknamed the Hammer and Anvil, and we know that Robert always used a warhammer as his favorite weapon. GRRM likes to use details like that to draw our attention to an echo of an earlier event. Is there already a thread for this comparison? If so, can you provide a link?

There is no thread as far as I know. I could not find one when I searched. But this whole thing has really neat connections to the black three-headed dragon Lord Darry broke apart, Rhaegar's armor that Robert smashed and how one of the heads of that black dragon and Rhaegar's rubies have washed up on Quiet Isle. There are some really neat little connections there. 

Furthermore, you have all these fighters who were fighting on one side at the Redgrass Field. Gwayne Corbray the Kingsguard with Lady Forlorn. We have Lyn Corbray (I think this one is going to end up with a white cloak eventually) with the Lady after his father is injured. He helps break the Dornish flank and he is the one who deals Lewyn Martell (the kingsguard) the death blow. Ulrich Dayne with Dawn fighting with the royal host vs Arthur Dayne, with Dawn, far away from the Trident. And the list goes on like that.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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21 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There is no thread as far as I know.

Would you start one? Flesh out some of the comparisons you have sketched in? I see you have put some thought into it and I would love to understand more of the parallels you are seeing.

I haven't done much battle analysis, but this interests me. I am still hung up on trying to analyze The Sworn Sword, and the one-on-one battle in the middle of the stream there seems like another Ruby Ford echo or foreshadowing. 

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47 minutes ago, Seams said:

Would you start one? Flesh out some of the comparisons you have sketched in? I see you have put some thought into it and I would love to understand more of the parallels you are seeing.

I don't have time these days, but if I do, I'll make sure to tag you ^_^

47 minutes ago, Seams said:

 I haven't done much battle analysis, but this interests me. I am still hung up on trying to analyze The Sworn Sword, and the one-on-one battle in the middle of the stream there seems like another Ruby Ford echo or foreshadowing. 

There's something there, I think. There's this battle between Duncan and Inchfield on their horses fighting in the river and there's the duel between Littlefinger and Brandon at Riverrun as well.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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15 hours ago, Seams said:

I remember your oft-shared theory from this earlier thread

Your family tree seems very plausible to me.

Though that was back in June, and since then GRRM has said, that Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre didn't had children, together. So it changes some things for my previous theory. For example, Varys and Serra now can't be descendants of Bittersteel and Calla, though they may be descendants of either Bittersteel, or Calla, separately, or of some other Blackfyre from Calla's family. Also it changes things for Petyr's great grandfather, and his father (the Bastard of Harrenhal).

It's more likely, that he (tBoH) was first Lord (or knight) Whent of Harrenhal, Shella's grandfather (or great grandfather). He has fathered a bastard son in Braavos, and had legitimate children and wife in Westeros. Maybe he fought for both sides - for Blackfyres, when he was in Essos in ranks of Golden Company; and for Targaryens, when his Whent family served to House Lothston in 7K.

It was mentioned in the books, that son of Lucas Lothston originally has supported Daemon Blackfyre, but later betrayed him. Maybe this Manfred/Manfryd Lothston (or nor Lothston but Rivers) was the Bastard of Harrenhal, that was officially acknowledged as bastard-son of Lucas Lothston, but actually was a bastard-child of Lucas' bastard-daughter, Jeyne Lothston. Maybe there was two "Manfreds", one Manfred and one Manfryd, and it's not just a mistyping, one of them was real son of Lucas Lothston, and the other was his bastard-grandson. So this bastard-(fake)grandson (fake because his mother, Jeyne, wasn't actually Lucas' daughter) of Lucas Lothston, that has fought for Blackfyres and then for Targaryens, in First Blackfyre Rebellion, could have been that Bastard of Harrenhal, and Littlefinger's great great grandfather, father of sellsword from Braavos, and father of Shella Whent's grandfather.

If he fought for both sides once, it's likely, that later he has repeated the same trick again. So officially he could have been knight Whent in service of House Lothston, but on the side he was also member of Golden Company, and was fighting against Targaryens during Fourth Rebellion of Blackfyres. He was killed, his comrades from Golden Company cut off his head, and brought it back with them to Essos, where they gave it to his bastard-son, the sellsword from Braavos. And his legitimate son from Westeros, grandfather of Shella Whent, became next Lord Whent. So one of tBoH's sons took grey head on green field as his personal sigil, and the other one became Lord of Harrenhal. Or something like that.

Maybe the Bastard and his sellsword-son were not affiliated with Golden Company, they were just bloodrelated to Blackfyres, and used this connection to ask a favour from them, for Lord Corbray to hire this sellsword into service of House Corbray.

For Varys to be interested in Petyr, and for Kettleblacks to be Petyr's people, it isn't necessary for any of them to be connected to Golden Company, or to be bloodrelated to each other.

Actually GRRM has given to us so little information about that time period (Aegon IV's reign), and nearly zero information about what happened since then until now. So all theories and speculations about possible origins of certain characters and their family trees can't be anything more than tinfoil.

Plausible or not, tinfoil is still tinfoil :closedeyes: And my theories are a tinfoil galore :rolleyes:

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One thing that has hit me in the heasd jusr now! On phone, quotes later, or would appreciate if someone puts them before me.

Pink letter's author wants Ramsay's bride back, but... Ramsay knows his bride to be a fake. Jon, her brother, would expose her as well as Theon and Jeynw herself, who are both safe. It's in Ramsay's (and Roose's if he is alive) best interests to deny her being Arya altogether and even deny that she escaped if possible to avoid Jon, Jeyne and Theon to expose them.

 

Who doesn't know her to be a fake  is Stannis, who is paying Jon with a false coin, since he sent them back.

 

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Lol,

I never noticed that the name of Harry the heir is Harrold Hardyng. If you read it very fast is almost Harrold Hard-dying.

it is maybe nothing, who knows.

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taught him Winterfell's secrets too. The builders had not even leveled the earth; there were hills and valleys behind the walls of Winterfell. There was a covered bridge that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower across to the second floor of the rookery. Bran knew about that. And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. Even Maester Luwin didn't know that, Bran was convinced.

Can't find the parts that say winterfell Was an amalgam of eras, but, does this mean WF at one time was a motte&bailey castle lile Deepwood?

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58 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Can't find the parts that say winterfell Was an amalgam of eras, but, does this mean WF at one time was a motte&bailey castle lile Deepwood?

Perhaps, but not necessarily. 

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Two quotes that go together, 2 books removed. 

Stannis ground his teeth again. "I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady." (Davos VI, ASOS)

And this.

Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen's men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. "There is power in a king's blood," the old maester had warned, "and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this." The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames. (Jon I, ADWD 3)

 

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37 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Two quotes that go together, 2 books removed. 

Stannis ground his teeth again. "I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady." (Davos VI, ASOS)

And this.

Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen's men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. "There is power in a king's blood," the old maester had warned, "and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this." The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames. (Jon I, ADWD 3)

 

And one more

  • A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IV

    Irri fetched the egg with the deep green shell, bronze flecks shining amid its scales as she turned it in her small hands. Dany curled up on her side, pulling the sandsilk cloak across her and cradling the egg in the hollow between her swollen belly and small, tender breasts. She liked to hold them. They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.

    She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her … as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. "You are the dragon," Dany whispered to him, "the true dragon. I know it. I know it." And she smiled, and went to sleep dreaming of home.

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