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Wow, I never noticed that v.17

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Davos's musings about constellations, the Ice Dragon (if one does think that Jon is an ice dragon) and then Dragonstone. 

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At the north window, he leaned against the sill for a breath of the cold night air, hoping to catch a glimpse of Mad Prendos raising sail, but the sea seemed black and empty as far as the eye could see. Is she gone already? He could only pray that she was, and the boy with her. A half moon was sliding in and out amongst thin high clouds, and Davos could see familiar stars. There was the Galley, sailing west; there the Crone's Lantern, four bright stars that enclosed a golden haze. The clouds hid most of the Ice Dragon, all but the bright blue due that marked due north. The sky is full of smugglers' stars. They were old friends, those stars; Davos hoped that meant good luck.

But when he lowered his gaze from the sky to the castle ramparts, he was not so certain. The wings of the stone dragons cast great black shadows in the light from the nightfire. He tried to tell himself that they were no more than carvings, cold and lifeless. This was their place, once. A place of dragons and dragonlords, the seat of House Targaryen. The Targaryens were the blood of old Valyria. (Davos VI, ASOS 63)

This is all happening on the heels of Edric Storm being smuggled out of Dragonstone in a bid to save his life from Melisandre's fire, which is followed by a conversation about the darkness falling on the land/AA. Stannis ends up at the Wall shortly after.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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10 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Robert is a king and he talks about "counting coppers."

He talks about what a boring and unnecessary activity it is, he also calls it counting coppers to belittle the task where as Ned is actually talking about coppers. 

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17 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Posted it in the other threas but it ended. 

Ned is a skinflint.

At Winterfell, he always had an extra seat set at his own table, and every day a different man would be asked to join him. One night it would be Vayon Poole, and the talk would be coppers and bread stores and servants. 

Not dragons, not stags. Guy is a LP and talks about coppers.

Ned's Grandmother was a mountain Flint, so Stark + Flint = Skinflint I guess

This may be an idiom that just means they were discussing accounts. I believe this is from an Arya POV, right? She is remembering her father's dinner conversation with his steward, the manager of the household. I'm sure the two men spoke of all kinds of accounts for a castle and household (family, servants, guards, visitors, maybe even surrounding crofters, the winter town, etc.) of that size, mostly big sums but maybe some small. Vayon Poole probably knew he was going to get into Eddard's dinner rotation only once in awhile, so he would not have wasted the opportunity by literally talking about pennies. My guess is that discussing "coppers" is a way of saying that they discussed expenses, without signaling that Eddard was obsessed with every penny.

Speaking of pennies, though, I do think it's significant that GRRM used the word copper to signal a discussion of money, without ever referring to coins. All coins are associated with Littlefinger, the Master of Coins and the Stark nemesis. Littlefinger will one day help to victimize Vayon Poole's daughter in a horrific way. By avoiding the reference to coins or to higher-value metals, maybe GRRM is showing that Vayon Poole and Ned have no idea what life will be like in the high-stakes, big-money leagues of King's Landing.

The word "copper" might also be part of a metal code - we know that steel, iron, silver and gold are used in important ways and that they probably carry specific meanings in the books. Maybe copper is also meaningful in a way we haven't discovered. If it has a wordplay meaning, I would guess "coppers" might allude to "corpse".

The thing that intrigues me about the list of topics is the reference to "bread stores." Flour might be stored, but once it is made into bread, it is not something that is stored.

I do like your Stark + Flint = skinflint pun, though. Very nice!

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42 minutes ago, Seams said:

This may be an idiom that just means they were discussing accounts. I believe this is from an Arya POV, right? She is remembering her father's dinner conversation with his steward, the manager of the household. I'm sure the two men spoke of all kinds of accounts for a castle and household (family, servants, guards, visitors, maybe even surrounding crofters, the winter town, etc.) of that size, mostly big sums but maybe some small. Vayon Poole probably knew he was going to get into Eddard's dinner rotation only once in awhile, so he would not have wasted the opportunity by literally talking about pennies. My guess is that discussing "coppers" is a way of saying that they discussed expenses, without signaling that Eddard was obsessed with every penny.

Speaking of pennies, though, I do think it's significant that GRRM used the word copper to signal a discussion of money, without ever referring to coins. All coins are associated with Littlefinger, the Master of Coins and the Stark nemesis. Littlefinger will one day help to victimize Vayon Poole's daughter in a horrific way. By avoiding the reference to coins or to higher-value metals, maybe GRRM is showing that Vayon Poole and Ned have no idea what life will be like in the high-stakes, big-money leagues of King's Landing.

The word "copper" might also be part of a metal code - we know that steel, iron, silver and gold are used in important ways and that they probably carry specific meanings in the books. Maybe copper is also meaningful in a way we haven't discovered. If it has a wordplay meaning, I would guess "coppers" might allude to "corpse".

The thing that intrigues me about the list of topics is the reference to "bread stores." Flour might be stored, but once it is made into bread, it is not something that is stored.

I do like your Stark + Flint = skinflint pun, though. Very nice!

Could the link be that the Northerners worship trees, then later (near house Blackwood I believe) we are shown a penny tree. Then that could link to the tree soldier concept, as well as the corpse thing. As we get a corpse of trees that can be paired with the copper tree (since that is what a penny tree boils down to). And if you believe the wights are linked to the trees, or controlled by them in some way this may be a hint at that? Similar to the sentinel trees being winter soldiers cloaked in snow. (can't remember the exact wording, but that is the jist) or maybe it's that copper and blood taste the same, so it's like paying the blood price? Just throwing ideas out to see if anything clicks with someone. 

hmm... just wondering what coppers being linked to a blood price could mean if linked to Tyrion and the tax on prostitution, given the whole Tysha thing especially since that plot is tied in with his traveling with Penny... 

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8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He talks about what a boring and unnecessary activity it is, he also calls it counting coppers to belittle the task where as Ned is actually talking about coppers. 

The way that passage reads to me, it's the guest bring that talk up, not Ned himself. Vayon Poole is the bean counter of Winterfell and that comment is coming from Arya, who despite being good at math, has little to no interest in running a lord's castle or being married off.

So it's like for like commentary to me.

“At Winterfell, he always had an extra seat set at his own table, and every day a different man would be asked to join him. One night it would be Vayon Poole, and the talk would be coppers and bread stores and servants. The next time it would be Mikken, and her father would listen to him go on about armor and swords and how hot a forge should be and the best way to temper steel. Another day it might be Hullen with his endless horse talk, or Septon Chayle from the library, or Jory, or Ser Rodrik, or even Old Nan with her stories.”

 

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On 6/25/2018 at 8:12 PM, Widow's Watch said:

I guess I totally missed that Janos Slynt did communicate from with King's Landing from the Wall. I should say informing.

Interesting. Which means he was also able to access the Ravens. So either Clydas allowed him or he forced the issue. 

Who else might have access to the Ravens and use the access to send or...intercept letters?

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“When I offered you to Dorne I was told that the suggestion was an insult,” Lord Tywin continued. “In later years I had similar answers from Yohn Royce and Leyton Hightower. I finally stooped so low as to suggest you might take the Florent girl Robert deflowered in his brother’s wedding bed, but her father preferred to give her to one of his own household knights.

ASoS, Ch.19 Tyrion III

Lord Tywin attempted to organise a match between Tyrion and Lynesse at the tourney? And Leyton used that as leverage to make her marry Jorah Mormont instead? Or accepted Jorah because he felt pressured by Tywin?

If it wasn't Lynesse, it must have been the Mad Maid, who is too old, or one of the married sisters who was then single. But Lynesse was the one that was brought to Casterly Rock when Tyrion was about fifteen. And Yohn Royce was there too, possibly with Ysilla.

I've always been suspicious about the way Jorah won and won again at that tourney, by the way. I had thought it was because his opponents were paid to take a fall, or something had made them leary of winning, either because someone wanted to encourage Jorah to propose (and would be listened to by even the Kingsguard when asked to take a fall for the guy with Lynesse's favour on his arm), or because Jorah was a long shot and there was money to be made on betting on such a long shot against the likes of Jaime Lannister, and Barristan the Bold (who seems to hint that there was a tale to tell about it in  ASoS, Ch.08 Daenerys I).

Thinking about it, Robert Baratheon seems like exactly the sort of person who might choose to oblige his father-in-law to give a tournament in honour of his victory over Balon, instruct his King's Guard to let Jorah win so Tyrion won't get Lynesse, bet his money against Jaime Lannister, and get his wife's serving woman pregnant with twins to boot.

ETA: Just remembered, the twins from the serving maid at Casterley Rock was at least half a dozen years later.

Edited by Walda

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On High Heart, the Ghost tells Thoros that he'll have no visions in the fire due to the magical influence of the weirwood stumps, indicating that the trees have some damping effect on 'fire magic'. On the other hand, following Beric's trial by combat with the Hound in the Hollow Hill - which is embedded in weirwood roots - Thoros is able to successfully revive Beric with the kiss of fire. So what does that tell us about the interaction between weirwoods and fire magic?

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35 minutes ago, Walda said:

I've always been suspicious about the way Jorah won and won again at that tourney, by the way. I had thought it was because his opponents were paid to take a fall, or something had made them leary of winning, either because someone wanted to encourage Jorah to propose (and would be listened to by even the Kingsguard when asked to take a fall for the guy with Lynesse's favour on his arm), or because Jorah was a long shot and there was money to be made on betting on such a long shot against the likes of Jaime Lannister, and Barristan the Bold (who seems to hint that there was a tale to tell about it in  ASoS, Ch.08 Daenerys I).

I've got a theory about this, that the proposal fell into Leyton's lap and he accepted because I think he is someone who knows much and more. Not only did Jeor become the lord commander of the NW a year before the Greyjoy Rebellion, but the Mormonts are also bannermen to House Stark.

Walys Flowers was the maester at Winterfell, Gerold Hightower was not only there when Rickard and Brandon were killed, he was also one of the three Kingsguard guarding Lyanna. Out of the three Kingsguard that are represented, House Hightower is the one who has the resources to assist in an escape.  

I think Lynesse marrying Jorah was so that Leyton had eyes and ears in the north. She traveled to Winterfell for feasts and she spent a fortnight there. I think he very much suspects about Jon for one. And for another, him consulting books of spells seems to indicate that the Hightowers are still very much involved in the supernatural. 

The speculation is actually a lot bigger than this.

53 minutes ago, Helenas Musikautomat said:

Interesting. Which means he was also able to access the Ravens. So either Clydas allowed him or he forced the issue. 

Who else might have access to the Ravens and use the access to send or...intercept letters?

I think that opens the door wide for more communication between some members of the Night's Watch and King's Landing. After Cercei is arrested we lose that POV of what's going on in the Small Council, but the plan to assassinate Jon is put forth before them, so they could very well have decided to carry on with that.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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43 minutes ago, Helenas Musikautomat said:

Interesting. Which means he was also able to access the Ravens. So either Clydas allowed him or he forced the issue. 

Who else might have access to the Ravens and use the access to send or...intercept letters?

I've always wondered about the Night's Watch and the ability to use ravens and send letters...is it like phone calls in prison and everyone gets limited usage?  Can you send letters whenever?  Do you have to be high-up like an officer or commander to use the ravens?  

Either way, I could certainly see Janos bullying poor Clydas to allow him to send letters.

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3 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

On High Heart, the Ghost tells Thoros that he'll have no visions in the fire due to the magical influence of the weirwood stumps, indicating that the trees have some damping effect on 'fire magic'. On the other hand, following Beric's trial by combat with the Hound in the Hollow Hill - which is embedded in weirwood roots - Thoros is able to successfully revive Beric with the kiss of fire. So what does that tell us about the interaction between weirwoods and fire magic?

I have my doubts as to whether it's fire magic at all. Beric in the weirwood roots, that a Ned proxy was spontaneously resurrected who later was compelled to raise Ned's wife against all logic. Why would R'hllor want to raise Starks (or Stark proxies) who keep the old gods? Weirwoods are red and white, Ghost is red and white, Mel is red and white, Bloodraven is red and white, the Ghost of High Heart is red and white...I'm not sure what's going on, but the connections are odd.

 

ACOK Prologue

"Maester," said Lady Melisandre, her deep voice flavored with the music of the Jade Sea. "You ought take more care." As ever, she wore red head to heel, a long loose gown of flowing silk as bright as fire, with dagged sleeves and deep slashes in the bodice that showed glimpses of a darker bloodred fabric beneath. Around her throat was a red gold choker tighter than any maester's chain, ornamented with a single great ruby. Her hair was not the orange or strawberry color of common red-haired men, but a deep burnished copper that shone in the light of the torches. Even her eyes were red . . . but her skin was smooth and white, unblemished, pale as cream. Slender she was, graceful, taller than most knights, with full breasts and narrow waist and a heart-shaped face. Men's eyes that once found her did not quickly look away, not even a maester's eyes. Many called her beautiful. She was not beautiful. She was red, and terrible, and red.

 

ASOS Jon XII

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one.

 

ASOS Arya IV

Beside the embers of their campfire, she saw Tom, Lem, and Greenbeard talking to a tiny little woman, a foot shorter than Arya and older than Old Nan, all stooped and wrinkled and leaning on a gnarled black cane. Her white hair was so long it came almost to the ground. When the wind gusted it blew about her head in a fine cloud. Her flesh was whiter, the color of milk, and it seemed to Arya that her eyes were red, though it was hard to tell from the bushes.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Walda said:

ASoS, Ch.19 Tyrion III

Lord Tywin attempted to organise a match between Tyrion and Lynesse at the tourney? And Leyton used that as leverage to make her marry Jorah Mormont instead? Or accepted Jorah because he felt pressured by Tywin?

If it wasn't Lynesse, it must have been the Mad Maid, who is too old, or one of the married sisters who was then single. But Lynesse was the one that was brought to Casterly Rock when Tyrion was about fifteen. And Yohn Royce was there too, possibly with Ysilla.

I've always been suspicious about the way Jorah won and won again at that tourney, by the way. I had thought it was because his opponents were paid to take a fall, or something had made them leary of winning, either because someone wanted to encourage Jorah to propose (and would be listened to by even the Kingsguard when asked to take a fall for the guy with Lynesse's favour on his arm), or because Jorah was a long shot and there was money to be made on betting on such a long shot against the likes of Jaime Lannister, and Barristan the Bold (who seems to hint that there was a tale to tell about it in  ASoS, Ch.08 Daenerys I).

Thinking about it, Robert Baratheon seems like exactly the sort of person who might choose to oblige his father-in-law to give a tournament in honour of his victory over Balon, instruct his King's Guard to let Jorah win so Tyrion won't get Lynesse, bet his money against Jaime Lannister, and get his wife's serving woman pregnant with twins to boot.

Oh wow. That's a pretty good thought!

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57 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

On High Heart, the Ghost tells Thoros that he'll have no visions in the fire due to the magical influence of the weirwood stumps, indicating that the trees have some damping effect on 'fire magic'. On the other hand, following Beric's trial by combat with the Hound in the Hollow Hill - which is embedded in weirwood roots - Thoros is able to successfully revive Beric with the kiss of fire. So what does that tell us about the interaction between weirwoods and fire magic?

A year ago, I would have argued that the power that animated Beric and Catelyn came from the Old Gods. Now I am not so sure. 

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Jamie needs to improve his psychic skills:

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"Not all," said Jaime. "Lord Eddard's daughters live. One has just been wed. The other …" Brienne, where are you? Have you found her? "… if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall."

Arya is the one forgetting that she is a Stark and Gendry and Hotpie already abandoned her.

Edited by Tucu

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6 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I've always wondered about the Night's Watch and the ability to use ravens and send letters...is it like phone calls in prison and everyone gets limited usage?  Can you send letters whenever?  Do you have to be high-up like an officer or commander to use the ravens?  

Either way, I could certainly see Janos bullying poor Clydas to allow him to send letters.

Well there are only limited numbers of Ravens trained to fly to each castle so letters are likely prohibited save for matters of great importance. Commanders can’t let Joe bloggs send a letter to Aunt Josephine telling her what he had for breakfast when he might need that raven to send urgent communications to the King. So goes my take anyway

Edited by Helenas Musikautomat

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18 hours ago, Helenas Musikautomat said:

Well there are only limited numbers of Ravens trained to fly to each castle so letters are likely prohibited save for matters of great importance. Commanders can’t let Joe bloggs send a letter to Aunt Josephine telling her what he had for breakfast when he might need that raven to send urgent communications to the King. So goes my take anyway

Good point...you probably only have like 1 raven that goes to each of the major castles, etc. ( i.e. King's Landing, Winterfell, Oldtown) so you are not gonna have Joe Schmo sending a random letter to his aunt.  

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Maester," said Lady Melisandre, her deep voice flavored with the music of the Jade Sea. "You ought take more care." As ever, she wore red head to heel, a long loose gown of flowing silk as bright as fire, with dagged sleeves and deep slashes in the bodice that showed glimpses of a darker bloodred fabric beneath. Around her throat was a red gold choker tighter than any maester's chain, ornamented with a single great ruby. Her hair was not the orange or strawberry color of common red-haired men, but a deep burnished copper that shone in the light of the torches. Even her eyes were red . . . but her skin was smooth and white, unblemished, pale as cream. Slender she was, graceful, taller than most knights, with full breasts and narrow waist and a heart-shaped face. Men's eyes that once found her did not quickly look away, not even a maester's eyes. Many called her beautiful. She was not beautiful. She was red, and terrible, and red.

Since Planetosi have no colored contact lenses we know of, her eyes got to be natural, right? 

Apart from the hair her coloring is that of an albino. Hair can be dyed and is done so by many people we see. There's even a country full of people dying their hair in a variety of colors. With that knowledge, how curious it is then, that her hair color is described to be not natural?

Skin can also be made to look white(r) with powder but a powdered character can be noticed and is done so in the case of Varys.

 I've seen  threads/ posts proposing she is Shiera or her daughter but I've never noticed until now that Mel is most likely an albino with dyed hair.

Because I'm posting from the phone,I leave quoting the similarities between her facial features and body build and that of Shiera's and Bloodraven's to others. They are there.

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On 6/27/2018 at 3:13 PM, Seams said:

This may be an idiom that just means they were discussing accounts. I believe this is from an Arya POV, right? She is remembering her father's dinner conversation with his steward, the manager of the household. I'm sure the two men spoke of all kinds of accounts for a castle and household (family, servants, guards, visitors, maybe even surrounding crofters, the winter town, etc.) of that size, mostly big sums but maybe some small. Vayon Poole probably knew he was going to get into Eddard's dinner rotation only once in awhile, so he would not have wasted the opportunity by literally talking about pennies. My guess is that discussing "coppers" is a way of saying that they discussed expenses, without signaling that Eddard was obsessed with every penny.

Speaking of pennies, though, I do think it's significant that GRRM used the word copper to signal a discussion of money, without ever referring to coins. All coins are associated with Littlefinger, the Master of Coins and the Stark nemesis. Littlefinger will one day help to victimize Vayon Poole's daughter in a horrific way. By avoiding the reference to coins or to higher-value metals, maybe GRRM is showing that Vayon Poole and Ned have no idea what life will be like in the high-stakes, big-money leagues of King's Landing.

The word "copper" might also be part of a metal code - we know that steel, iron, silver and gold are used in important ways and that they probably carry specific meanings in the books. Maybe copper is also meaningful in a way we haven't discovered. If it has a wordplay meaning, I would guess "coppers" might allude to "corpse".

The thing that intrigues me about the list of topics is the reference to "bread stores." Flour might be stored, but once it is made into bread, it is not something that is stored.

I do like your Stark + Flint = skinflint pun, though. Very nice!

Very cool catch on coppers/coins. Shows a few things IMO:

LF valuing the coins, coins have a representative value that can be much more than the actual value of the metal, showing his interest in wealth and finance rather than the inherent value of the metals. Also, of course, coins have two faces. 

Ned referring to the metal shows the opposite, and of course that's not at all how things work in King's Landing. 

 

Oh, bread can be stored just fine, it's just the flat, dry type. Flour goes bad in storage unless it's the pure, white type which the westerosi can not make in large quantities as they lack the milling technology. Grain can be stored. 

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On 6/27/2018 at 4:13 PM, Seams said:

The word "copper" might also be part of a metal code - we know that steel, iron, silver and gold are used in important ways and that they probably carry specific meanings in the books. Maybe copper is also meaningful in a way we haven't discovered. If it has a wordplay meaning, I would guess "coppers" might allude to "corpse".

Copper is shiny and nice to look upon but not worth much.

Quote

"And his brothers?" Jon asked.

The armorer considered that a moment. "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."

 

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On 6/27/2018 at 5:19 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

The way that passage reads to me, it's the guest bring that talk up, not Ned himself. Vayon Poole is the bean counter of Winterfell and that comment is coming from Arya, who despite being good at math, has little to no interest in running a lord's castle or being married off.

Oh it's not him who brings it up, but should Ned be talked to about such things of little value as coppers when he has a third of the realm to manage?

But perhaps it's also one of those idioms George made up.

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