Wow, I never noticed that v.17

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Jô Maltese said:

And this also ties in well with Lightbringer...

I had a small post on Lightbringer a few weeks back; about a dagger, one of the thirteen treaaures of england, that can only be wielded by a worthy person or that would have a white glow when carried by the worthy. I’ve since read somewhere the same thing for excalibur. GRRM seems to have pulled some Legends/Myths from Britain and it’s no wonder since story, setting and the map as well is inspired from there.

One other such myth is the curse of the first king / curse on Ivar the Boneless’ barrow. William the conqueror destroyed Ivar’s barrow so as not to be affected.

[Seams]

@Corvo the Crow I think some of the answers to your Karstark symbolism questions might come through an analysis of more color symbolism. The symbols and sigils surrounding the Rainbow Guard helped to sort out some of the symbolism around the author's use of colors, but this didn't help to decipher the non-rainbow colors that I think of as "earth tones" - brown, black, white, grey. I suspect the earth tones are often associated with the First Men and with Flea Bottom, but that is not universally true. Green may be a link between the rainbow colors and the earth tones and it is often associated with Garth Greenhand imagery.

I believe that shields represent doors. Destroying a shield means closing a door (or stopping the passage between two worlds). So a new sigil, such as the hybrid Thenn / Karstark symbol created at the wedding of Alys, could mean the opening of a new door. That would fit with your notion of a new sunrise.

A number of the images you are contemplating are also associated with the sigil of Ser Duncan the Tall, whose sigil is adopted by Brienne of Tarth. He has a shooting star on a sunset field with a brown and green elm tree. If you have not yet read the Dunk & Egg stories, it's worth doing so, especially if you are interested in more clues about ASOIAF symbolism. The design of Dunk's sigil and shield is a group effort by Dunk, Aegon V (Egg), Ser Arlan (who liked sunsets), the armorer Pate and the puppeteer Tanselle Too Tall. I believe Dunk has special powers to cross borderlines, which is what enables him and Egg to travel throughout the Seven Kingdoms so effectively. His shield is a portable door.

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Are there any word plays on Karstark?

I'm a doctor, Jim, not a punster.

This is really, really silly. So silly it might just work:

Thenn + Karstark = Star Trek Khann

The plot of the Wrath of Khan Star Trek movie involves the destruction of worlds and the creation of a new world through the use / abuse of a technology called Genesis. So the idea of a "new dawn" coming from the Karstark / Thenn marriage might just fit with the wordplay. Or it might be a complete coincidence.

I'm sure there are many other wordplays on Karstark. The kind of laborious backstory to explain the origin of he name Karstark makes me think that those specific letters were necessary for some kind of anagram, even if it's not the anagram I just offered. You could try different combinations to see what you can find.

In that recent post about some symbolism in the ongoing Pink Letter discussion, I mentioned that a re-read of the Alys / Magnar wedding really hit me over the head with the uniting of ice and fire.

On 3/12/2019 at 5:59 PM, Seams said:

If you read the wedding scene with Alys and the Magnar of Thenn, the marriage is one of ice and fire, "Stark" and wildling, black and white, arranged by Jon. When he opens the Shieldhall, there are torches alternating with shields on the walls - further symbolism of the newly-introduced balance between ice (Wall = shield) and fire (torches).

It is significant that Jon arranged this wedding, with help from his new underlings, Satin, Owen the Oaf and Three-Finger Hobb, Jon is the creator, if this is the seed of a new beginning. Of course, Melisandre performs the wedding ceremony. There is further symbolism in the two nursemaids (The Norrey and Flint) for "Monster," the baby of Craster and Gilly, who is cared for by Val in Hardin's Tower. Of course, the giant Wun Wun is guarding Val from people like Ser Patrek of King's Mountain. Throughout the chapter (and his whole ADwD arc), Jon Snow provides mulled wine for everyone - perhaps a sort of communion "This is my Blood" image, as in the Christian religion? And then a whittler and a pomegranate and a third dagger kill Jon.

So. Much. Symbolism. Feel free to sort it all out and get back to us, would ya?

One more wordplay possibility: The German word for wall is "Wand". So I suspect that the Wall and dawn could be linked through this cross-cultural pun. Someone told me a long time ago that the common etymology of this word and the English word "wand" (a magic stick used by Harry Potter and his pals) is that walls in ancient times were made of woven twigs covered with mud.

Because of the key role of Wick Whittlestick in killing Jon Snow, I have recently been contemplating whittled sticks. It occurred to me that the Stark boys were trained using wooden swords. Arya also uses a wooden sword for awhile, even after she has Needle hidden among her possessions. Bran is associated with climbing branches. Perhaps most importantly, Sansa builds a snow castle at dawn one morning and Littlefinger shows her how to use sticks and twigs to make the bridges and the framework for the glass house. Keep that in mind: bridges are made out of snow-covered sticks. Sorta like an ice wall built over a magical weirwood tree that contains a gate? (But why does Littlefinger know about this stick and twig technology?)

Also, when Jon makes a hilt for his obsidian dagger, he makes an ugly wooden handle. I believe that hilts are really important clues about the character who uses a weapon. (The dagger brought by the catspaw to Bran's bed chamber had a dragon bone hilt. I'll eat my hat if that dagger belonged to someone other than a Targaryen.)

In other words, I think the younger Stark generation is associated with wooden sticks as weapons, which means they are associated with wands. If Wand = Wall and Wand = dawn, the Starks could play a key role in the return of Dawn.

I don't know if the Karstarks are associated with sticks. We do know that Melisandre requires the wildlings to throw weirwood sticks into a fire.

[Corvo the Crow]

@Seams

Wow, that’s much to think on, I know I’ll be scratching my head for a while 

Since you mentioned it, something small on the shield hall though; Shield hall was once used by the owners of the many shields it had on it’s walls because of the many nobles and knights that joined the order it has fewer and fewer shields with them dying and the hall is no longer used until Jon becomed LC. Jon has introduced to the wall (and the world) a new shield with the Thenn-Karstark marriage and opened up the SH.

By opening up a new door with a new shield, Jon opened the doors of the SH, reversed the process of shields getting destroyed, doors getting closed.

Now, since you introduced me to the concept of shields being doors; Shield Hall with it’s doors is in a sense the Hall of the Undying with it’s doors. Dany destroyed the Hall where Jon restored it. Now that we compared HotU and SH, is it any wonder that the colors blue and white, colors of the wights and others is seen heavily there? HotU is a hall of the corpses and dead. Shield Hall with shields of onlu the living is a hall of the living. In fact I have many months back said that SH is a hall of the living with other things as proof so SH and HotU are opposites of each other.

I am usually posting on phone so I can’t find/post the SH post I mentioned but it’s on the first few pages of this.

 

Also this will be terrible word play so forgive  me; Karstark Thenn / Karthenn Stark Qartheen Stark.

[Seams]

23 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

@Seams

Wow, that’s much to think on, I know I’ll be scratching my head for a while 

Since you mentioned it, something small on the shield hall though; Shield hall was once used by the owners of the many shields it had on it’s walls because of the many nobles and knights that joined the order it has fewer and fewer shields with them dying and the hall is no longer used until Jon becomed LC. Jon has introduced to the wall (and the world) a new shield with the Thenn-Karstark marriage and opened up the SH.

By opening up a new door with a new shield, Jon opened the doors of the SH, reversed the process of shields getting destroyed, doors getting closed.

Now, since you introduced me to the concept of shields being doors; Shield Hall with it’s doors is in a sense the Hall of the Undying with it’s doors. Dany destroyed the Hall where Jon restored it. Now that we compared HotU and SH, is it any wonder that the colors blue and white, colors of the wights and others is seen heavily there? HotU is a hall of the corpses and dead. Shield Hall with shields of onlu the living is a hall of the living. In fact I have many months back said that SH is a hall of the living with other things as proof so SH and HotU are opposites of each other.

Could be, but I think you have to examine all burned halls before drawing a straight line between the Shield Hall and HotU. Summer Hall, Harrenhal and the burned / rebuilt hall at Winterfell could be keys to the imagery and symbolism. I always thought the fire at Winterfell library was linked to the burning of the HotU.

It is interesting that Jon suddenly opens the Shield Hall for his "Who is with me?" war speech to the wildlings, but he didn't open it for Alys and the Magnar's wedding feast, which must have hosted a similar-sized crowd. Jon has a conversation with Alys, asking her to send the older men of Karhold to the Night's Watch when food supplies and rations run low in the Winter, instead of letting them walk out into the snow to freeze or starve. Could this be a kind of Valhalla symbol, inviting the old warriors to live in the after life at the feast hall? Maybe the Shield Hall is exclusively used for launching military offensive attacks?

[Corvo the Crow]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 8:38 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Valhalla comes from Valr + Holl

Valr means dead/fallen warriors 

Valkyrie is Valkyrja, Valr + Kjosa

Kjosa is to choose

 Valkyrie is chooser of the fallen. Female attendants of Odin guiding the fallen to Valhalla

A Valkyrie is also a large, strong, courageous or agressive woman.

Val, thought of as a warrior princess by Jon, is all of the above except large.

Tormund is mead king of Ruddy(Red) Hall

Odin is also a gos of lightning ans thunder among other things and is often accompanied by  his wolf and crow companions.

One of Tormund's many titles is thunderfist and by his own admission he's fond of wargs. He is also called a crowlover by Harma dogshead.

 I've always wondered why Tormund liked Val so much. Now I have an answer I think.

 

Oh and Val leads Tormund and his followers to the Wall so in a sense she has led the ones that later came back for Jon's ranging to... shieldhall. Shield hall is the place where knightly brothers leave their shields to be hung when they say their oaths but their shields are taken down when they die. So, the Shieldhall of NW is not a hall of the fallen warriors, but one for the living ones. 

Val has led them to hall of the living. 

And oh, now that I looked at it again, ruddy, apart from red, also means a healthy red color if used for a person's face. 

Tormund is king of healthy, therefore living, people and Val guides the living to there.

@Seams here’s the post I mentioned. Also, I made a few additions to my last post, namely Karstark-Thenn /Karthenn Stark/ Qartheen Stark.

Wow and I just see it, shame on me!

They end up on the Shield Hall, Val has lead them not just to Wall but to the Wall Hall!

 

@The Fattest Leech I'll also call you here because of Val. I think I may have sent this to you before but not with the new House of the Undying / Shield hall parallels.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

It's always interesting how stupid I feel whenever I spot something I didn't after several reads. This may already have been mentioned and I'm just a terrible reader (I get distracted very easily).

To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow. (Dany III, ACoK 40)

This was one of the riddles shady Quaithe posed Dany. And going back to the first book, we have this.

The day was warm and cloudless, the sky a deep blue. When she wind blew, she could smell the rich scents of grass and earth. As her litter passed beneath the stolen monuments, she went from sunlight to shadow and back again. Dany swayed along, studying the faces of dead heroes and forgotten kings. She wondered if the gods of burned cities could still answer prayers. (Dany VI, AGoT 54)

Dany is literally passing beneath the shadow (of dead heroes and long forgotten kings) when she goes from the sunlight to shadow and back to the sunlight again. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It's always interesting how stupid I feel whenever I spot something I didn't after several reads. This may already have been mentioned and I'm just a terrible reader (I get distracted very easily).

To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow. (Dany III, ACoK 40)

This was one of the riddles shady Quaithe posed Dany. And going back to the first book, we have this.

The day was warm and cloudless, the sky a deep blue. When she wind blew, she could smell the rich scents of grass and earth. As her litter passed beneath the stolen monuments, she went from sunlight to shadow and back again. Dany swayed along, studying the faces of dead heroes and forgotten kings. She wondered if the gods of burned cities could still answer prayers. (Dany VI, AGoT 54)

Dany is literally passing beneath the shadow (of dead heroes and long forgotten kings) when she goes from the sunlight to shadow and back to the sunlight again. 

Nice! Martin did say rereads pay off. Almost 20 yrs on and I often find stuff I  missed previously. 

[Seams]

Nice catch, @Alexis-something-Rose. Here's a similar one from Catelyn's return to Riverrun:

The wide arch of the Water Gate came into view, and she heard the creak of heavy chains as the great iron portcullis was winched upward. ... They passed beneath the arch and under the walls, moving from sunlight to shadow and back into sunlight. (AGoT, Chap. 71, Catelyn XI)

In the passage you cite, Dany is carried among stolen monuments - stone statues. Catelyn is traversing the river called the Tumblestone.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

25 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Nice! Martin did say rereads pay off. Almost 20 yrs on and I often find stuff I  missed previously. 

I think Quaithe's whole riddle has to do with what will happen once Dany returns to Vaes Dothrak rather than the journey she has been on since she left the city and connects with this part of the vision at the House of the Undying.

Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. [Snip] Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. (Dany IV, ACoK 48)

The lake can only be the Womb of the World which is located west of Vaes Dothrak.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think Quaithe's whole riddle has to do with what will happen once Dany returns to Vaes Dothrak rather than the journey she has been on since she left the city and connects with this part of the vision at the House of the Undying.

I like it, hadn't really thought of it this way, but now...

7 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. [Snip] Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. (Dany IV, ACoK 48)

The lake can only be the Womb of the World which is located west of Vaes Dothrak.

yup, now it makes perfect sense. Nice catch!

[The Fattest Leech]

42 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think Quaithe's whole riddle has to do with what will happen once Dany returns to Vaes Dothrak rather than the journey she has been on since she left the city and connects with this part of the vision at the House of the Undying.

Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. [Snip] Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. (Dany IV, ACoK 48)

The lake can only be the Womb of the World which is located west of Vaes Dothrak.

Fully agree!

[rotting sea cow]

I never noticed this

Quote

When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “ Why? ”
“For the Watch.” Wick slashed at him again. This time
Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped
the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard

- Jon XIII, ADWD

People have wondered why Jon was unable to handle Longclaw to defend himself and have argued whether Jon was poisoned or someone did something to his sword, etc.

The answer is in the next page. Look what Barristan says about wounds

Quote

He saw no sign of dragons, but he had not expected to. The dragons did not like the rain. A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded Selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. Often, even with a deep cut, the blood came before the pain.

- The Queen's Hand, ADWD

The first blade didn't just graze Jon's sky, it was a deep wound.

[Seams]

4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

The first blade didn't just graze Jon's skin, it was a deep wound.

Nice catch with the Barristan connection. Interesting that the Barristan excerpt takes place at dawn. There are at least two other cases where the lightest touch of a sword opens someone's throat, however: Jon Snow killing Qhorin Halfhand and Theon killing Ralf Kenning. Interestingly, Qhorin insisted that Jon kill him and Ralf was dying in agony so Theon gave him "mercy".

Perhaps related, Jaime being knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne after his vigil at Baelor's Sept:

With dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime’s tunic, so he bled anew.

I wonder whether any of this has to do with "fear cuts deeper than swords"? (Apologies to anyone who dislikes wordplay, but I do think these neck cuts that aren't felt have to do with razor Ahai.)

Edit: Now you've got me thinking. I've always had this nagging suspicion that the killing of Jon Snow is a Night's Watch sacrifice intended to make Jon rise stronger (in the manner of, "What's dead can never die.") or somehow strengthen the Wall. Bowen Marsh disagrees with Jon's judgment, but he is a loyal member of the Night's Watch, probably a Reed bannerman (so loyal to House Stark) and not part of the Lannister alliance.

Before he opens the Shield Hall and outlines his plans for the two sorties (Hardhome and Winterfell), Jon confers with Tormund in a way very similar to the one-on-one talk that Qhorin had with Jon before they went through the waterfall and mountain, emerging from the cave to confront Rattleshirt. Then Jon killed Qhorin with the tip of his sharp sword (followed by some other cuts). Qhorin's death was a sacrifice to advance the interests of the Night's Watch. I think Wick Wittlestick and Bowen Marsh attacking Jon are similar to the sacrificial death of Qhorin. Jon isn't expecting or inviting death, as far as we know, except we don't get to know what he and Tormund discussed in their two-hour talk after reading the pink letter.

I'm away from my books right now, but I'm going to check for other parallels when I get a chance. I really want to understand Bowen Marsh.

[Corvo the Crow]

Marsh Kings:

 

Who were they and why were they called Marsh Kings, and not Neck kings for their region? What was the name of their house?

 

 

Quote

Long ago, the histories claim, the crannogmen were ruled by the Marsh Kings. Singers tell of them riding on lizard lions and using great frog spears like lances, but that is clearly fancy. Were these Marsh Kings even truly kings, as we understand it? Archmaester Eyron writes that the crannogmen saw their kings as the first among equals, who were often thought to be touched by the old gods—a fact that was said to show itself in eyes of strange hues, or even in speaking with animals as the children are said to have done.

Their eyes gave them away it was told, but's just about the only thing we know of them.

 

Anyway, no point discussing I guess, since they have died out

Quote

He looked at the passing faces and the tales came back to him. The maester had told him the stories, and Old Nan had made them come alive. "That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor. His son was Rickard Stark, not my father's father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter. Theon Stark's the real thin one with the long hair and the skinny beard.

 

Whatever the truth, the last man to be called Marsh King was killed by King Rickard Stark (sometimes called the Laughing Wolf in the North, for his good nature), who took the man's daughter to wife, whereupon the crannogmen bent their knees and accepted the dominion of Winterfell. In the centuries since, the crannogmen have become stout allies of the Starks, under the leadership of the Reeds of Greywater Watch.

 

Or have they? We are told that the last Marsh King was killed, but not told the same for his sons, brothers, cousins, or even other kin unlike some other houses, say such as Gardeners

 

Quote

More than four thousand men died in the flames. Another thousand perished from sword and spears and arrows. Tens of thousands suffered burns, some so bad that they remained scarred for life. King Mern IX was amongst the dead, together with his sons, grandsons, brothers, cousins, and other kin. One nephew survived for three days. When he died of his burns, House Gardener died with him. King Loren of the Rock lived, riding through a wall of flame and smoke to safety when he saw the battle lost.

So whatever house they were from may have survived, so what?  We don't even know their name they were just called the Marsh kings with no house name given, right? Perhaps not...

 

Quote

The wayns were forming up beneath Bowen Marsh's watchful eye

Bowen Marsh was angry. Jon could see it in his eyes,

The two above are the only things we are told about Bowen's eyes. Why not give a description of how his eyes looked like?

 

 

Marsh Kings were called as such because of they were from house Marsh and the house has survived.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 3/31/2019 at 2:14 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

On 7/8/2018 at 1:38 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Valhalla comes from Valr + Holl

Valr means dead/fallen warriors 

Valkyrie is Valkyrja, Valr + Kjosa

Kjosa is to choose

 Valkyrie is chooser of the fallen. Female attendants of Odin guiding the fallen to Valhalla

A Valkyrie is also a large, strong, courageous or agressive woman.

Val, thought of as a warrior princess by Jon, is all of the above except large.

Tormund is mead king of Ruddy(Red) Hall

Odin is also a gos of lightning ans thunder among other things and is often accompanied by  his wolf and crow companions.

One of Tormund's many titles is thunderfist and by his own admission he's fond of wargs. He is also called a crowlover by Harma dogshead.

 I've always wondered why Tormund liked Val so much. Now I have an answer I think.

 

Oh and Val leads Tormund and his followers to the Wall so in a sense she has led the ones that later came back for Jon's ranging to... shieldhall. Shield hall is the place where knightly brothers leave their shields to be hung when they say their oaths but their shields are taken down when they die. So, the Shieldhall of NW is not a hall of the fallen warriors, but one for the living ones. 

Val has led them to hall of the living. 

And oh, now that I looked at it again, ruddy, apart from red, also means a healthy red color if used for a person's face. 

Tormund is king of healthy, therefore living, people and Val guides the living to there.

@Seams here’s the post I mentioned. Also, I made a few additions to my last post, namely Karstark-Thenn /Karthenn Stark/ Qartheen Stark.

Wow and I just see it, shame on me!

They end up on the Shield Hall, Val has lead them not just to Wall but to the Wall Hall!

 

@The Fattest Leech I'll also call you here because of Val. I think I may have sent this to you before but not with the new House of the Undying / Shield hall parallels.

Wonderful! Great point that Shieldhall is for the living! Yah!!!  My gawd you are speaking all my languages here

The (living) shields that guard the realms of men.

I may be remembering, but isn't there a comment by Jon somewhere in Dance when he mentions the joy/pride/hope? of seeing new shields that have been hung in Shieldhall?

[Jô Maltese]

@Corvo the Crow, on Bowen Marsh possibly being a crannogman:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VI

The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby. Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. "This is a sacred place, we will not defile it."

Bowen Marsh clearly follows the old gods, just like the new recruits he takes to the sacred grove of weirwoods.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

"Unlikely," said Bowen Marsh. "These are not raiders, out to steal a wife and some plunder. Tormund will have old women with him, children, herds of sheep and goats, even mammoths. He needs a gate, and only three of those remain. And if he should send climbers up, well, defending against climbers is as simple as spearing fish in a kettle."

This analogy sounds very crannog to me.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

I'm guessing I am not the first to discover this but...

The catapulting of diseased bodies into Mereen may have real life historical precedent. 

In 1345, a Mongol khan, Yanibeg, was laying siege to Kaffa (modern day Ukraine). The Bubonic Plague was active at this time. Yanibeg's army was hit hard by the plague and forced to retreat. According to one report, Yanibeg had the bodies catapulted into city. 

The Genovese in the city tried to dispose of the bodies by throwing them into the sea.

It is reported that the disease erupted anyway. This idea is disputed, however, because the bodies would have had to be carrying living fleas to spread the plague.

This is from a book I am reading, Jack Weatherford's Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World.  

[Seams]

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Their eyes gave them away it was told, but's just about the only thing we know of them.

The two above are the only things we are told about Bowen's eyes. Why not give a description of how his eyes looked like?

Bowen Marsh was also sent to battle the wildling guerilla known as The Weeper, who cuts the eyes out of his victims. Marsh apparently deals with The Weeper effectively, but does not kill him altogether. They clash at the Bridge of Skulls.

We are often told that the Wall has been weeping. What could be the connection?

[Lollygag]

The fall of Valyria sounds a lot like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

No spoilers, just in a box for length. 

Spoiler

So here we have a covenant made with a single family to become great. Sounds like Valyrians who seem to have a covenant in the flesh with dragons. Dany is called mother of dragons.

GENESIS 17

⁴“As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of ^[b]many nations. ⁵ No longer shall your name be called ^[c]Abram, but your name shall be ^[d]Abraham; for I have made you a father of ^[e]many nations. ⁶ I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. ⁷ And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.

...

¹³ He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. ¹⁴ And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

¹⁵ Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but ^[g]Sarah shall be her name. ¹⁶ And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her.”

 

God appears to Abraham and much is made of hospitality. Abraham offers to wash  his feet and feed him. Then upon going to Sodom, Lot offers hospitality as well. Soon, ne’er do wells arrive at Lot’s house and threaten his guests. Lot stands his ground as he has offered safety to his guest. Some view the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah as the condemnation of homosexuality as ne’er do wells want to know Lot’s male guests carnally, but Lot says hospitality is the reason for his refusal to comply and we see through Abraham and Lot that hospitality is of the utmost importance. Many scholars now believe the intended purpose of the destruction was the lack of hospitality, not homosexuality.

Valyrians kept slaves and were rumored to perform grotesque experiments. The treatment was so bad it led to the FM and their religion. Hospitality, or treatment of strangers and those who put their trust in you, has a major presence in ASOIAF. Perhaps the Doom is rooted in some violation of hospitality either formally or less formally in that their treatment of people became so bad that something, a covenant perhaps, broke.

God tells Lot to leave with his family as he will destroy the cities. At first he tells Lot to flee to the mountains (high ground) and avoid the plains (low ground). Lot asks for one city, Zoar, to be spared. Zoar means small. The Targs escape to the small, bleak, outpost of Dragonstone. Any Valyrians who fled to other cities (not Zoar) were all killed. It says God rained fire and brimstone on the cities, but this sounds like volcanic activity and Lot was instructed to go to high ground. This reminds one of the Doom and we also have the Azor Ahai-an salt and smoke here.

 

Genesis 19

¹² Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in the city—take them out of this place! ¹³ For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the Lord, and the Lord has sent us to destroy it.”

¹⁴ So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who had married his daughters, and said, “Get up, get out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city!” But to his sons-in-law he seemed to be joking.

¹⁵ When the morning dawned, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.” ¹⁶ And while he lingered, the men took hold of his hand, his wife’s hand, and the hands of his two daughters, the Lord being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city. ¹⁷ So it came to pass, when they had brought them outside, that ^[b]he said, “Escape for your life! Do not look behind you nor stay anywhere in the plain. Escape to the mountains, lest you be ^[c]destroyed.”

¹⁸ Then Lot said to them, “Please, no, my lords! ¹⁹ Indeed now, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have increased your mercy which you have shown me by saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, lest some evil overtake me and I die. ²⁰ See now, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one; please let me escape there (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.”

²¹ And he said to him, “See, I have favored you concerning this thing also, in that I will not overthrow this city for which you have spoken. ²² Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there.”

Therefore the name of the city was called ^[d]Zoar.

²³ The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar. ²⁴ Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens. ²⁵ So He ^[e]overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.

²⁶ But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

²⁷ And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the Lord. ²⁸ Then he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain; and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land which went up like the smoke of a furnace. ²⁹ And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot had dwelt.

 

And don’t we know that this looks familiar.

 

³⁰ Then Lot went up out of Zoar and dwelt in the mountains, and his two daughters were with him; for he was afraid to dwell in Zoar. And he and his two daughters dwelt in a cave. ³¹ Now the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man on the earth to come in to us as is the custom of all the earth. ³² Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve the ^[f]lineage of our father.” ³³ So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.

ACOK Prologue

Grim places needed lightening, not solemnity, and Dragonstone was grim beyond a doubt, a lonely citadel in the wet waste surrounded by storm and salt, with the smoking shadow of the mountain at its back. A maester must go where he is sent, so Cressen had come here with his lord some twelve years past, and he had served, and served well. Yet he had never loved Dragonstone, nor ever felt truly at home here.

 

The Targs go to Westeros, abandon slaving (not hospitable) and are the only dragonlords allowed to survive. Egg becomes convinced that he needs dragons to help the small folk. Then we that find Dany is the last of the dragonlords. (Abraham’s son Ishmael was blessed with prosperity, but it was Abraham’s son born of Sarah with whom the covenant was made). She hatches her dragons after she shows mercy to the conquered. Dany being the last has to do with Aerys going off the rails with those he ruled, a break in hospitality of a sort, or perhaps a break of a covenant.

 

 

 

Dany repeats “if I look back, I am lost”, which is not unlike what Lot was ordered. Some wordplay: If I look back I am last. if I look back, I am salt. Perhaps Dany’s fate lies in hospitality.

Wondering if more parallels and ideas are to be found with a more complete reading but I'm too lazy right now. 

[Corvo the Crow]

On 4/6/2019 at 12:34 AM, Seams said:

Bowen Marsh was also sent to battle the wildling guerilla known as The Weeper, who cuts the eyes out of his victims. Marsh apparently deals with The Weeper effectively, but does not kill him altogether. They clash at the Bridge of Skulls.

We are often told that the Wall has been weeping. What could be the connection?

Good spotting. Weeper has watery eyes, that’s where he gets his name. When the wall weeps it has watery “ice”. But what connects them to Marsh?

Cutting onions waters your eyes, I wonder if Westerosi Pomegranates do something to your eyes.

On 4/5/2019 at 8:21 PM, Jô Maltese said:

@Corvo the Crow, on Bowen Marsh possibly being a crannogman:

Bowen Marsh clearly follows the old gods, just like the new recruits he takes to the sacred grove of weirwoods.

This analogy sounds very crannog to me.

So he believes in old gods, it makes him most likely from the North and with your analogy, a crannogmen perhaps.

 

More on marsh / marsh kings; Crannogmen lives in crannogs but the Marsh kings had a castle, unlike the other Crannogmen. 

Quote

"My father taught me. We have no knights at Greywater. No master-at-arms, and no maester."

 

Bowen Marsh is a steward of the watch, is very good with numbers and can read and write. Where did this man learn all this if not from a maester? 

Marshs, if they were the marsh kings, which I believe they were, are helding on to the uncrannogmenlike tradition of keeping maesters.