Renly was a dummy

[Frey Kings]

 

He knew what the lannisters were but hes pretty much replacing them with the Tyrells & the Reacher lords themselves seem more hungry. No doubt Renly's fate will mimics Robert's as his reign begins to take its toll on him. I'm not saying the Tyrells were going to use him and then depose him and end up killing him (maybe?). But hes not going to walk a step in the red keep without some Tyrell involved or meddling in something. 

 

Then he had deal with the North&Riverlands, Westerlands, Isolation of the Vale, and w/e Dorne ends up doing. 

 

[LindsayLohan]

Renly might have been a poor decision-maker, but his plan was solid.  You can't expect your brother to show up with a fucking witch who kills you using magic.  Renly was doing the right thing:  Chilling out, unifying the Reach and Stormlands, letting the Stark/Tully alliance battle the Lannisters.  Renly's pitch to Catelyn was solid, too. 

I think Renly's only tactical mistake was getting big-brother'd by Stannis during their parlay before Renly's death.  Stannis set the terms of battle (first light) and Renly never bothered to question, as Renly was used to doing as Stannis instructed.  Renly then blew off Randyll Tarly's advice about charging into a blinding sun, as Renly's forces were almost entirely mounted, with no foot.  I have always had the feeling that, outside of Melissandre's efforts, Renly would have been dealt one of the most disastrous, humiliating defeats in the history of Westeros.  Stannis needed Renly's forces intact, though, and destroying them would have done no good (hence the blood magic). 

Other than that, Renly's plan was solid.  He wasn't about to attack King's Landing, but was in position to move on King's Landing quickly, if needed.  Tywin may have smashed himself against the River lords in an attempt to protect Casterly Rock.

[Tagganaro]

11 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

Renly might have been a poor decision-maker, but his plan was solid.  You can't expect your brother to show up with a fucking witch who kills you using magic.  Renly was doing the right thing:  Chilling out, unifying the Reach and Stormlands, letting the Stark/Tully alliance battle the Lannisters.  Renly's pitch to Catelyn was solid, too. 

I think Renly's only tactical mistake was getting big-brother'd by Stannis during their parlay before Renly's death.  Stannis set the terms of battle (first light) and Renly never bothered to question, as Renly was used to doing as Stannis instructed.  Renly then blew off Randyll Tarly's advice about charging into a blinding sun, as Renly's forces were almost entirely mounted, with no foot.  I have always had the feeling that, outside of Melissandre's efforts, Renly would have been dealt one of the most disastrous, humiliating defeats in the history of Westeros.  Stannis needed Renly's forces intact, though, and destroying them would have done no good (hence the blood magic). 

Other than that, Renly's plan was solid.  He wasn't about to attack King's Landing, but was in position to move on King's Landing quickly, if needed.  Tywin may have smashed himself against the River lords in an attempt to protect Casterly Rock.

Renly was a little too arrogant with Stannis I agree, but I don't think it was possible for Renly to lose that battle outside of Melisandre's sorcery.  Renly clearly is not stupid- He would 100% be the King if not for Stannis/Melisandre.  

[Ralphis Baratheon]

The difference between Renly and the Tyrells from Robert and the Lannisters is that Loras Tyrell genuinely loved Renly. None of the Lannisters cared much about Robert. It's a pretty even trade off, with the Tyrells army, food, resources Renly would become king and Margaery his Queen. Some might even say Renly got the better of the bargain.   

[Dorian Martell's son]

7 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

 

He knew what the lannisters were but hes pretty much replacing them with the Tyrells & the Reacher lords themselves seem more hungry. No doubt Renly's fate will mimics Robert's as his reign begins to take its toll on him. I'm not saying the Tyrells were going to use him and then depose him and end up killing him (maybe?). But hes not going to walk a step in the red keep without some Tyrell involved or meddling in something. 

Then he had deal with the North&Riverlands, Westerlands, Isolation of the Vale, and w/e Dorne ends up doing. 

He planned on ruling with his boyfriend by his side as LC so yes

[Bernie Mac]

59 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

The difference between Renly and the Tyrells from Robert and the Lannisters is that Loras Tyrell genuinely loved Renly. 

Not just Loras

"If that is so, why is the Knight of Flowers not among you? And where is Mathis Rowan? Randyll Tarly? Lady Oakheart? Why are they not here in your company, they who loved Renly best? Where is Brienne of Tarth, I ask you?"

Rowan, Tarly and perhaps even Oakheart would be members of Renly's small council, he'd be surrounded by people who liked him. 

 

7 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

But hes not going to walk a step in the red keep without some Tyrell involved or meddling in something. 

That is what he was expecting. Robert choose Arryn to be his Hand and Renly choose Mace, they were expected to help him run the realm. 

Renly seems to be more of a politician than his brothers, accepting the need for compromise. I can't see why he would have a problem with this, especially as we see Mace's involvement when he becomes a member of the small council after Renly's death, he is pretty passive until Cersei has his daughter arrested. 

 

 

[FictionIsntReal]

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not just Loras

"If that is so, why is the Knight of Flowers not among you? And where is Mathis Rowan? Randyll Tarly? Lady Oakheart? Why are they not here in your company, they who loved Renly best? Where is Brienne of Tarth, I ask you?"

Rowan, Tarly and perhaps even Oakheart would be members of Renly's small council, he'd be surrounded by people who liked him.

All those people are from the Reach. It may be personal with Loras, but the rest are just following their Lord Paramount.

One other possible similarity between Renly & Robert would be that the former is likely not to be the father of the children imputed to him.

[Peach King]

Renly isn't going to get exploited by the Tyrells. They're his adoptive family! Why the heck do you think he wears so much green and gold for? Even his personality is Tyrell-ish: Refined and charismatic but also sneaky and underhanded (Soft power FTW) 

Margaery says this in ASoS (Sansa I):
"Renly was brave and gentle (....) Father liked him as well, and so did Loras. " so at least she, Mace and Loras liked him back. 

Keep in mind the Tyrells had no reason to choose Renly over Joffrey. Why deal with the backlash and consequences of supporting a self-proclaimed usurper? Either (1)Mace was very susceptible to persuasion from his favorite son or (2)They genuinely liked and supported Renly or (3)Both. 

And Renly had a bunch of competent advisors whom he could just delegate tasks to while he just sat there looking pretty, so ruling wasn't a problem. 

. 

[The Sleeper]

10 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

 

 Other than that, Renly's plan was solid.  He wasn't about to attack King's Landing, but was in position to move on King's Landing quickly, if needed.  Tywin may have smashed himself against the River lords in an attempt to protect Casterly Rock.

Well, there was the Blackwater to cross, which he had no way of doing safely or quickly without a navy. 

 

52 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Keep in mind the Tyrells had no reason to choose Renly over Joffrey. Why deal with the backlash and consequences of supporting a self-proclaimed usurper? Either (1)Mace was very susceptible to persuasion from his favorite son or (2)They genuinely liked and supported Renly or (3)Both. 

Margaret becoming Queen, positions in the Small Council are pretty good reasons, as they represent a substantial increase in their influence and power outside their regions. 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

All those people are from the Reach. It may be personal with Loras, but the rest are just following their Lord Paramount.

Mace is not mentioned, Rowan, Tarly and Oakheart are. There is no reason for either Penrose or the author to include this information if it was not true. This kind of misinformation serves no purpose for a dead character and until some other evidence is revealed to show that Penrose was wrong we can assume that  he was sincere.  We even find out that one of the Florent children is named after him. 

GRRM is pretty clear that Renly was loved, I'm pretty sure the reason he was given Storm's End was to mend fences with the Reach rebels, something he would be more capable of doing than Stannis 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

One other possible similarity between Renly & Robert would be that the former is likely not to be the father of the children imputed to him.

How? 

Do people in this fandom really think gay or bisexual men are not capable of having children? That many real life gay/bisexual nobles throughout history have not done their duty and created heirs? 

I'd guess that Renly would be having more hetero sex in his marriage than Stannis has in his. 

 

7 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Well, there was the Blackwater to cross, which he had no way of doing safely or quickly without a navy. 

they would do it the exact same way the army did so in ACOK. How do you think the Tyrells crossed to get to the Blackwater. 

 

 

[Peach King]

Still more trouble than its worth tbh. Renly's line-jumping is destabilizing and therefore not in the interest of a Great House like the Tyrells and major feudal lords whose entire claim to legitimacy rests on strict lineage. And the Tyrells still get favoured positions in the Small Council if they side with the Lannisters (as Cersei observes). Even Olenna thought it was a dumb mistake. 

[The Sleeper]

7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

they would do it the exact same way the army did so in ACOK. How do you think the Tyrells crossed to get to the Blackwater. 

With barges. While the Lannister and royal fleets were neutralized and there was no one on the other side to resist the crossing. 

Trying to cross with an army waiting on the other side and a fleet patrolling the river is a very different proposition. 

[The Sleeper]

8 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Still more trouble than its worth tbh. Renly's line-jumping is destabilizing and therefore not in the interest of a Great House like the Tyrells and major feudal lords whose entire claim to legitimacy rests on strict lineage. And the Tyrells still get favoured positions in the Small Council if they side with the Lannisters (as Cersei observes). Even Olenna thought it was a dumb mistake. 

Olenna thought it was too much trouble. Mace probably didn't. Regardless of what personal fondness there existed, saying they had no other reason is not true. 

Ambition is a pretty good motive. 

Personally, I think Loras liked Renly a lot and didn't care about politics, while conversely Mace was in it for his ambition and couldn't care less about his sons boyfriend other than as a vehicle to get more power. 

Besides,  the Tyrells were virtually absent from the court prior to the war. 

[Peach King]

31 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Olenna thought it was too much trouble. Mace probably didn't. Regardless of what personal fondness there existed, saying they had no other reason is not true. 

Ambition is a pretty good motive. 

Personally, I think Loras liked Renly a lot and didn't care about politics, while conversely Mace was in it for his ambition and couldn't care less about his sons boyfriend other than as a vehicle to get more power. 

Besides,  the Tyrells were virtually absent from the court prior to the war. 

Yay I learned how to quote. All I'm saying is they could get the same results while marrying Margaery to Joffrey (Sansa was the son of a traitor, Tywin was desperate for allies). So there was likely some cajolery involved, some arm-twisting perhaps.. 

Or maybe Mace just liked him. 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

With barges. While the Lannister and royal fleets were neutralized and there was no one on the other side to resist the crossing. 

they used the barges at Tumbler's Fields, in the Riverlands. And they could also attack via the Kingswood like Stannis' army did. 

 

[The Sleeper]

3 hours ago, Peach King said:

Yay I learned how to quote. All I'm saying is they could get the same results while marrying Margaery to Joffrey (Sansa was the son of a traitor, Tywin was desperate for allies). So there was likely some cajolery involved, some arm-twisting perhaps.. 

Or maybe Mace just liked him. 

Their original plan was to marry Margaery to Robert, not Joffrey. After all Robert was in his mid thirties, he might have been expected to rule for decades yet. And their contact in the court was Renly. Basically the idea was to supplant the Lannisters at court. They were prior to the war rivals. The conditions where the marriage happened was after the Lannisters found themselves with the back against the wall and Renly got shadow-babied. They had aspirations to the court prior to the war and Renly was the vehicle. We don't know whose idea it was, but the goal was already in place and the Lannisters were obstacles. 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

they used the barges at Tumbler's Fields, in the Riverlands. And they could also attack via the Kingswood like Stannis' army did. 

And there was no hostile army or navy in Tumbler's Fields. And the Kingswood is still on the wrong side of the Blackwater, which was why Stannis committed his entire river so that he could cross. 

Let me put it another way. Suppose Renly lived and he wants to cross the Blackwater. A patrol or scout spots him and when he tries to cross he finds on the opposite bank Tywin's forces butchering his troops as they made landing, those at least whose barges have not been sunk by the Lannister fleet. 

In truth there was not much he could be sensibly doing. 

[Peach King]

2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Their original plan was to marry Margaery to Robert, not Joffrey. After all Robert was in his mid thirties, he might have been expected to rule for decades yet. And their contact in the court was Renly. Basically the idea was to supplant the Lannisters at court. They were prior to the war rivals. The conditions where the marriage happened was after the Lannisters found themselves with the back against the wall and Renly got shadow-babied. They had aspirations to the court prior to the war and Renly was the vehicle. We don't know whose idea it was, but the goal was already in place and the Lannisters were obstacles. 

Well yeah. They were working together since the beginning. 

And I'd say that Renly came up with the idea. The Tyrells want power, but are cautious about it, and Mace doesn't seem like the type to just pimp out his daughter unless he was sure he would get something in his pocket. He even tells Stannis it was his plan. I don't think Margaery would lie, so it was probably a combination of friendly relations + common interests that got them to work together. 

So your point is they wanted to completely replace the Lannisters in the government. That makes sense, and I didn't think of that. Still makes supporting Renly a dumb idea, what with the succession crises it would cause. But perhaps Mace didn't think that far ahead. 

[Hugorfonics]

Renly wasn't the smartest. A usurper should never marry his strongest vassel. It will change the dynamics of court, it killed Robert, it may have killed Renly.

Also I'm not convinced that Renly would have been victorious on the field. For example his battle preparation against Stannis was laughable

[Angel Eyes]

He’s as dumb as a box of rocks. He was an idiot for trying to get Margaery into Robert’s bed and say she looked like Lyanna Stark. He was foolish in thinking that Cersei could be laid aside lightly; the only time a queen was ever set aside was Daena, sister of Baelor the Blessed, a notoriously devout and fanatical man who failed to pass on his line. Then he declared himself king because... Tyrells? 

[Peach King]

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

He’s as dumb as a box of rocks. He was an idiot for trying to get Margaery into Robert’s bed and say she looked like Lyanna Stark. He was foolish in thinking that Cersei could be laid aside lightly; the only time a queen was ever set aside was Daena, sister of Baelor the Blessed, a notoriously devout and fanatical man who failed to pass on his line. Then he declared himself king because... Tyrells?

Renly knew about the incest.