Renly was a dummy

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Well yeah at the time it would make him look bad to admit he knew about it since it would give Stannis the better claim. If he paints Stannis as the same usurper as he is, it levels the playing field a little. Renly's allll about PR.

He didn't mention this when he was trying to get Robert to ditch Cersi, nor when trying to get Ned to help taking hold of the children of Cersi. Renly trying to steal his 11 year old nephew's throne is certianly going to go down less controversial than trying to steal his brother's (who near no one likes, and has pledged himself to a foreighn god).

He had no reason to hold onto this secret if he knew it.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

ecause the plan to wed Margaery to Robert would never work without knowledge of the incest. You could just say, well, Renly's just a dumb ass who had no workable plan, but the problem is Mace Tyrell. He's not going to throw his daughter into the den of lions unless he's sure she would be made Queen, and with Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen out of the line of succession. 

 I guess this is another reason the Tyrells sided with Renly, since Joffrey was an incest baby.  

If Renly actually knew about the inchest he'd let it slip to Robert, thus making the appeal to Margary that much more. Robert is a hedonist. He's near single-handly driven the crown into dedt, over the course of his regime. Cersi is old for her context. Her firstborn is a clear dissapointment to Robert. The plan was not perfect, but it's not without its reason. 

[Peach King]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

it benefits Renly, Cersei hates him and wanted him dead and Renly was aware of this as he warns Ned that if Cersei gains power she will destroy the both of them 

and as an aside if Renly actually knew about the incest this is when he would come clean, he is clearly scared of Cersei gaining power, his silence as well as his later claims of not knowing are clear evidence that he did not know. 

It's not in Renly's interest to tell Ned of the incest, because if he did, Stannis becomes the royal heir. And Renly was possibly looking to crown himself even then.

Because Renly would never lie. 

 

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the Tyrells get a queen and royal grandchildren. that is huge. When Henry VIII has a son and two daughters the nobility of England and Europe were still desperate to get him. being the wife, or even paramour of a king, brings a lot of influence. Look at all the lordly father's willing for their daughters to be Aegon IV's mistress. 

Mace wants his grandchildren on the throne, and that's not possible unless Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are out of the picture. Even if Margaery had children with Robert, they'd come after them. Note that Renly says he was scheming to make Margaery Queen, not just a mistress. The letter mentions this too. It's extremely hard to get a divorce in Westeros, unless you have an iron reason, it's not happening. If Robert knew of the incest, though.. chop chop, Cersei. 

[Peach King]

49 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He didn't mention this when he was trying to get Robert to ditch Cersi, nor when trying to get Ned to help taking hold of the children of Cersi. Renly trying to steal his 11 year old nephew's throne is certianly going to go down less controversial than trying to steal his brother's (who near no one likes, and has pledged himself to a foreighn god).

He had no reason to hold onto this secret if he knew it.

He needed his plan of making Margaery a viable option to Robert to go through first. If  Robert learns of the incest, gets rid of Cersei but marries someone else, Renly doesn't reap the same benefits. However if Robert marries Margaery, then the Tyrells replace the Lannisters and have all the power in King's Landing. And because Renly’s the one who set it all up and is Loras' husbando, they become allies to his faction. The moment Margaery gets pregnant, Stannis is also out of the picture (He would be heir if Robert stays unattached) . Renly gains huge favour with Robert for getting rid of his despised wife/being the saviour of the Baratheon dynasty, and possibly becomes Hand/Regent. 

If Ned learns of the incest, he would support Stannis. 

40 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If Renly actually knew about the inchest he'd let it slip to Robert, thus making the appeal to Margary that much more. Robert is a hedonist. He's near single-handly driven the crown into dedt, over the course of his regime. Cersi is old for her context. Her firstborn is a clear dissapointment to Robert. The plan was not perfect, but it's not without its reason. 

See above. 

[Bernie Mac]

25 minutes ago, Peach King said:

It's not in Renly's interest to tell Ned of the incest

of course it his, he was convinced Cersei wanted to kill him

Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. "Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us."

"Then we should pray that Robert does not die."

 

it is very much in his interests to see Cersei imprisoned. 

25 minutes ago, Peach King said:

 

 

, because if he did, Stannis becomes the royal heir.

and Renly jumps up as well, Stannis has no son and more importantly no major support. winning the throne from the unpopular Stannis is a lot easier than the powerful Lannisters. 

more importantly he only has to mention the affair, he does not have to say how long it goes back, all he needs is to get Cersei out of the way, if he knew about her and Jaime he could have done that 

25 minutes ago, Peach King said:

 

And Renly was possibly looking to crown himself even then.

no, his idea was to remove Cersei from power and for Ned to act as regent for the underage Joffrey. 

25 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Because Renly would never lie. 

can you think of many occasions that he has?

he has no reason to lie. Renly looks far worse trying to usurp Robert's chilren's throne as well as Stannis. If it was just the unpopular Stannis he was trying to usurp he'd look better. to the vast majority of Westeros Joffrey and his siblings are not bad people, they view Joffrey like Sansa first did

25 minutes ago, Peach King said:

 

Mace wants his grandchildren on the throne,

yup, that would be his jackpot, but having his daughter as queen and his grandchildren as princes is still a huge prize and the absolute best marriage he could hope for at the time. 

 

 

25 minutes ago, Peach King said:

 

Even if Margaery had children with Robert, they'd come after them.

they'd still be royalty. Walder Frey had zero problem finding another 7 wives after his first one produced three sons and a daughter, the King, and the amount of influence and favor he brings, is the biggest marriage prize in westeros. 

the idea that Mace or any other lord would turn it down is ridiculous, especially as Mace is a good 10 years older than Robert, his son-in-law being King is excellent for Mace. 

25 minutes ago, Peach King said:

 

Note that Renly says he was scheming to make Margaery Queen, not just a mistress.

Again, that was jackpot. But the plan was for Margaery to sleep with him first

The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen.

Whether he ever married her the plan was for her to be a mistress first. they were counting on her similarity to  Lyanna to be enough to seduce Robert into marrying again. If Renly knew about the incest he would not need a Lyanna clone, the truth would be enough to end that marriage. 

25 minutes ago, Peach King said:

 

The letter mentions this too. It's extremely hard to get a divorce in Westeros, unless you have an iron reason, it's not happening. 

 except that is not the case for the king, who can do whatever he pleases. 

in one the very first chapters, right before Bran is pushed, it is pointed out that Robert can put her aside if he wishes

"My husband grows more restless every day. Having Stark beside him will only make him worse. He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?

'divorce' was always an option. 

[Peach King]

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

of course it his, he was convinced Cersei wanted to kill him

Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. "Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us."

"Then we should pray that Robert does not die."

 

it is very much in his interests to see Cersei imprisoned. 

and Renly jumps up as well, Stannis has no son and more importantly no major support. winning the throne from the unpopular Stannis is a lot easier than the powerful Lannisters. 

more importantly he only has to mention the affair, he does not have to say how long it goes back, all he needs is to get Cersei out of the way, if he knew about her and Jaime he could have done that 

no, his idea was to remove Cersei from power and for Ned to act as regent for the underage Joffrey. 

can you think of many occasions that he has?

he has no reason to lie. Renly looks far worse trying to usurp Robert's chilren's throne as well as Stannis. If it was just the unpopular Stannis he was trying to usurp he'd look better. to the vast majority of Westeros Joffrey and his siblings are not bad people, they view Joffrey like Sansa first did

yup, that would be his jackpot, but having his daughter as queen and his grandchildren as princes is still a huge prize and the absolute best marriage he could hope for at the time. 

 

 

they'd still be royalty. Walder Frey had zero problem finding another 7 wives after his first one produced three sons and a daughter, the King, and the amount of influence and favor he brings, is the biggest marriage prize in westeros. 

the idea that Mace or any other lord would turn it down is ridiculous, especially as Mace is a good 10 years older than Robert, his son-in-law being King is excellent for Mace. 

Again, that was jackpot. But the plan was for Margaery to sleep with him first

The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen.

Whether he ever married her the plan was for her to be a mistress first. they were counting on her similarity to  Lyanna to be enough to seduce Robert into marrying again. If Renly knew about the incest he would not need a Lyanna clone, the truth would be enough to end that marriage. 

 except that is not the case for the king, who can do whatever he pleases. 

in one the very first chapters, right before Bran is pushed, it is pointed out that Robert can put her aside if he wishes

"My husband grows more restless every day. Having Stark beside him will only make him worse. He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?

'divorce' was always an option. 

It's not clear what Renly was thinking then. I agree he was acting somewhat  out of self-preservation but who knows if he wanted the crown for himself too after Ned acted as Regent? Even Littlefinger voices this idea to Ned. Renly certainly makes it seem like he wanted to be king all along in ACOK. 

Well, theres another reason telling Ned the truth would not bode well for Renly, because there's no guarantee that Ned will believe him. He may view it as Renly's poor attempt at a coup. Ned has all the power, and Renly is trying to both ingratiate himself to Ned and trying to see if Ned would actually use the political power given to him. But because Ned remains stalwartly honorable, Renly decided that the path to the throne did not lie with him and chose to escape. 

Ned is not a stupid man, despite popular opinion. He'd put two and two together, Cersei and Jaime + fucking = Cersei's kids are not Robert's. 

There is that time he secretly thought Brienne was absurd behind her back, while acting cordial in front of her. 

He absolutely had a reason to lie. Catelyn was listening in, so are the Reach Lords. Who knows if he lost her support and that of the North and the Riverlands? He's making Stannis look like a self interested liar, and putting them on the same level. The truth of Joffrey's parentage only helps Stannis and hurts Renly. 

Even if Mace wanted it, Robert isn't just going to make Margaery his queen without good reason. Looking pretty's not enough. He's had mistresses for years, what makes this one special? Mace is a cautious man and unless he was sure she's going to be queen he's not going to go through with it. There's also the fact that if they do succeed somehow (How? Were they just banking on Margaery looking like Lyanna? Falsely accuse Cersei of treason?) when Joffrey comes of age he's going to do something bad. You think he's not going to hold a grudge against the Tyrells for kicking his mother out? And Tywin? The Queen holds no political power, she only exercises it through her husband and children. Margaery's reign would be short and possibly end disastrously for the Tyrells. 

The Lyanna thing was so that Margaery would be the most attractive option. If Robert gets rid of Cersei, all the Lords would be clamoring for their daughters to marry him. Margaery has to get there first. 

Cersei is delusional and paranoid, she's fixated on the prophecy of a younger and more beautiful queen so she's scared of being replaced. Robert's not going to divorce her if the Lannisters owned a sizable chunk of the Iron Throne's debt, Jaime was about to be named Warden of the East, and Robert Arryn was going to be sent to Casterly Rock. It would be a huge political scandal and Robert wouldn't risk Tywin's wrath- unless, of course, the queen had committed some horrible crime. And quoting GRRM: "Divorce is pretty much unheard of (In Westeros)". 

Actually it'd be great if you could convince me (not being sarcastic) because I don't want it to be true. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

38 minutes ago, Peach King said:

It's not clear what Renly was thinking then. I agree he was acting somewhat  out of self-preservation but who knows if he wanted the crown for himself too after Ned acted as Regent? Even Littlefinger voices this idea to Ned. Renly certainly makes it seem like he wanted to be king all along in ACOK. 

Just to rehash that entire line of thinking:

Renly: Yo Ned, here's some guys. Let's seize the children so Cersei doesn't act against us

Ned: THAT DISHONORS MY LOVERS MEMORY

*next scene*

Ned: Welp I am in jail and everyone is dead. I wonder why Renly left....

**************    NEXT SCENE

Catelyn: Ned said no to you

Renly: I didn't have the strength to act alone. I left so Cersei wouldn't kill me.

**************  NEXT SCENE

Cersei: Yeah I needed to kill Stannis and Renly

38 minutes ago, Peach King said:

You got me here, maybe Renly didn't have enough swords to imprison Cersei. 

He literally says this: 

“I lacked the strength to act alone, so when Lord Eddard turned me away, I had no choice but to flee. Had I stayed, I knew the queen would see to it that I did not long outlive my brother.”

38 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Ned is not a stupid man, despite popular opinion. He'd put two and two together, Cersei and Jaime + fucking = Cersei's kids are not Robert's. 

He's not a stupid man but his plans were sure stupid.

38 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Actually it'd be great if you could convince me (not being sarcastic) because I don't want it to be true. 

If the quoting the wife of the king who was worried about being set aside won't do it, I'm not sure what will short of GRRM calling you -- he'd text but you wouldn't get it until 2021.

[Universal Sword Donor]

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Renly wasn't the smartest. A usurper should never marry his strongest vassel. It will change the dynamics of court, it killed Robert, it may have killed Renly.

Also I'm not convinced that Renly would have been victorious on the field. For example his battle preparation against Stannis was laughable

Is it really though? Yeah he gives Stannis the option of time. We know Stannis' army is half sellswords (or close enough), and we see freeriders desert or switch sides during the series. There are no defensive fortifications for Stannis' camp. No one seems to have an issue with anything but the timing. 

Battle plans never survive the first charge/bullet/whatever. Might as well use the KISS method. It's not the best plan admittedly -- Renly should have sent Randyll or someone with a mixed force to handle it -- but you don't always need a well-crafted hammer to hit a nail

[Peach King]

25 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Just to rehash that entire line of thinking:

Renly: Yo Ned, here's some guys. Let's seize the children so Cersei doesn't act against us

Ned: THAT DISHONORS MY LOVERS MEMORY

*next scene*

Ned: Welp I am in jail and everyone is dead. I wonder why Renly left....

**************    NEXT SCENE

Catelyn: Ned said no to you

Renly: I didn't have the strength to act alone. I left so Cersei wouldn't kill me.

**************  NEXT SCENE

Cersei: Yeah I needed to kill Stannis and Renly

He literally says this: 

“I lacked the strength to act alone, so when Lord Eddard turned me away, I had no choice but to flee. Had I stayed, I knew the queen would see to it that I did not long outlive my brother.”

He's not a stupid man but his plans were sure stupid.

If the quoting the wife of the king who was worried about being set aside won't do it, I'm not sure what will short of GRRM calling you -- he'd text but you wouldn't get it until 2021.

You telling me Renly's only reason to declare himself king was to be safe? He literally makes an entire speech about how great and awesome he is to Catelyn. 

Yeah? My point stands. And I edited my post so you can check it out. 

He'd be really stupid to not figure out the parentage after Renly just told him "BTW Jaime and Cersei are fucking so arrest her immediately" 

No need to be rude. Cersei is an unreliable narrator. GRRM is not, and he himself says divorces are practically non existent. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 minute ago, Peach King said:

You telling me Renly's only reason to declare himself king was to be safe? He literally makes an entire speech about how great and awesome he is to Catelyn. 

Yeah? My point stands. And I edited my post so you can check it out. 

I am not telling you that. Renly says it twice himself. Don't get me wrong. He definitely warms up to the idea, though his speech is more about how Stannis sucks than how awesome he is. He needed allies and the only effective way to that while saving his life is to rebel. He holds power and land at the discretion of the king. Cersei can easily strip him of both as queen regent and she wants him dead ASAP. Hell she complains that Robert died before she could off Stannis and Renly. 

1 minute ago, Peach King said:

He's be really stupid to not figure out the parentage if Renly just him "BTW Jaime and Cersei are fucking so arrest her immediately" 

Possibly but there is literally no textual support for it. Renly clearly doesn't give a shit if he has to jump one person or four people in the line of succession. If he knew about the incest, he'd have been involved with Jon Arryn and Stannis. He'd have mentioned it to Ned. He gains literally nothing and fears the Lannisters.

1 minute ago, Peach King said:

No need to be rude. Cersei is an unreliable narrator. GRRM is not, and he himself says divorces are practically non existent. 

I'm ever so sorry for making a joke about GRRMs typing speed. Never again shall I show such blatant disrespect to the alpha and the omega of A Song of Ice and Fire.

Oh for sure she is. However you can't really be unreliable with respect to your own thoughts. She might well be mistaken on how easy it is, but she literally cannot unreliably narrate her own thoughts or words. Her words and thoughts are canon. GRRM's opinion on the matter is important to take into account but his contribution is hardly what you say:

that at best you've made a mistake and are in a situation that doesn't have any easy solution in a society such as that of the Seven Kingdoms, where divorce simply isn't common.

Uncommon is not "practically non-existent." So it is possible but uncommon and Cersei is worried about it. Seems to me like it's something Renly could have used in protecting himself.

[Bernie Mac]

23 minutes ago, Peach King said:

It's not clear what Renly was thinking then. I agree he was acting somewhat  out of self-preservation but who knows if he wanted the crown for himself too after Ned acted as Regent? Even Littlefinger voices this idea to Ned. Renly certainly makes it seem like he wanted to be king all along in ACOK. 

Not really, look at the time timeline.

• Renly warns Ned that Cersei will destroy them,
• Ned refuses his offer and from Renly's perspective thinks Ned is going to support Joffrey
• leaves the city and hears the loyal Ned has been arrested, possibly revealing to Cersei Renly's idea to arrest her
• Joffrey demands Renly and other lords come to Kings Landing and swear fealty or forfeit their lands
• Renly has no choice, go and likely be arrested or declare himself king. 

Obviously Renly is ambitious and loves the prospect of becoming King, but he was kind of forced into it. 

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You got me here, maybe Renly didn't have enough swords to imprison Cersei. 

He didn't, nor the authority, but if he knew the truth he would inform Ned and be rid of a woman he is aware wants him dead, and she actually does as she reveals as much in AFFC

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Ned is not a stupid man, despite popular opinion. He'd put two and two together, Cersei and Jaime + fucking = Cersei's kids are not Robert's. 

he kind of is, well at southern politics at least, a more intelligent man would have informed Renly and others rather than rely entirely on Littlefinger. 

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There is that time he secretly thought Brienne was absurd behind her back, while acting cordial in front of her. 

that is not lying, that is being polite. Everyone else thinks Brienne is absurd, for that time period she most definitely is,  Renly has the decency to treat her like she wants to be treated and even respects her as a knight (to some degree)

You can argue it is two faced, but is really the better thing to say the things he, and everyone else believes, to her face and treat her less than, like the majority of people do? 

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He absolutely had a reason to lie. Catelyn was listening in,

no, look at his reaction after the meeting.

"You have a cheerful way of grieving," said Catelyn, whose distress was not feigned.

"Do I?" Renly shrugged. "So be it. Stannis was never the most cherished of brothers, I confess. Do you suppose this tale of his is true? If Joffrey is the Kingslayer's get—"

"—your brother is the lawful heir."

"While he lives," Renly admitted. "Though it's a fool's law, wouldn't you agree?

 

he seems happy with the news as he should be. Renly knows that keeping the realm happy is important to keeping the crown and kings who usurp their nephews and niece are likely to be vilified.  Usurping one person instead of four is better for Renly, not worse. 

 

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so are the Reach Lords.

the Reach lords have already agreed to support him in usurping Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella and Stannis. Why would they object to him only usurping Stannis? 

Besides, we know that Renly is loved by the Reach lords

"If that is so, why is the Knight of Flowers not among you? And where is Mathis Rowan? Randyll Tarly? Lady Oakheart? Why are they not here in your company, they who loved Renly best? Where is Brienne of Tarth, I ask you?"

and we know Stannis is not exactly popular with them, due to the belief that he carries a grudge and the Reach army starving him when he was a teenager. 

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Who knows if he lost her support and that of the North and the Riverlands? He's making Stannis look like a self interested liar, and putting them on the same level. The truth of Joffrey's parentage only helps Stannis and hurts Renly. 

Renly has already been declared, already has the largest army. Any rumor that lessens Lannister support is great for him, they are the threat, not Stannis and his 5k.  

People believing that Joffrey and his siblings are the true heirs is bad for him, as the Lannisters have the means to carry on fighting a lot longer than Stannis, their wealth should have brought the Golden Company and 10 others to Westeros to win the crown. 

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Even if Mace wanted it, Robert isn't just going to make Margaery his queen without good reason.

I agree. Cersie and Renly think otherwise. 

Characters are allowed to make plans that might not work, you know. 

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Looking pretty's not enough. He's had mistresses for years, what makes this one special?

Well that was established. 

"He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"

Cersie is well aware of Robert's fetish, as is Renly

 Inside was a miniature painted in the vivid Myrish style, of a lovely young girl with doe's eyes and a cascade of soft brown hair. Renly had seemed anxious to know if the girl reminded him of anyone, and when Ned had no answer but a shrug, he had seemed disappointed. The maid was Loras Tyrell's sister Margaery, he'd confessed, but there were those who said she looked like Lyanna. "No," Ned had told him, bemused. Could it be that Lord Renly, who looked so like a young Robert, had conceived a passion for a girl he fancied to be a young Lyanna? That struck him as more than passing queer.

Renly was counting on Margaery, who he thought looked like Lyanna, would be able to seduce him and make him put Cersei aside. if he knew the truth he would not need a Lyanna lookalike. 

And to reiterate; I also don't think the plan would have worked, but many plans don't. 

Quote

 

Mace is a cautious man

He's not. He declared for Renly early, he killed Stannis royalists at Bitterbridge before making a deal with the Crown and as soon as Aegon invaded the North he was on his merry way to fight him without even knowing what kind of force he has. 

He is not a cautious man. The small council meeting when Balon offers an alliance and the only price being the North both Mace and his best friend Redwyne agree to the deal.  Giving away a huge chunk of the kingdom after the first offer is not caution, its reckless. 

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and unless he was sure she's going to be queen he's not going to go through with it.

then the plan does not go ahead as we know the plan was for her to seduce him

The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen.

either he agrees to the plan or not, but there is no wedding until Margaery can make him fall in love with her and she can't do that from Highgarden. 

 

and to reiterate once more, I'm with you, its not a great plan with no guarantee of success, but that is what the plan was and many plans are gambles. 

Quote

There's also the fact that if they do succeed somehow (How? Were they just banking on Margaery looking like Lyanna? Falsely accuse Cersei of treason?) when Joffrey comes of age he's going to do something bad. 

Joffrey does not become king when he comes of age, he becomes king when his father dies. The potential decades between that would see the Tyrells trying to secure as much power as they need to. 

I don't want to be rude, but do you read much history?  Kings with heirs married or took on mistresses from powerful houses. Obviously Henry VIII is the most well known one but there were others such as the two hugely influential paramours of Francis I of France, Anna Jeanne de Pisseleu d'Heilly and  Françoise de Foix, Comtesse de Châteaubriant or even Cnut the Great who despite having two sons with his paramour (marriage was more lax in scandanavia than the mainland) he decided to marry the wife of the english king he defeated, Athelred the Unready, who she already had two sons with and they would marry to produce one son, a huge mess of three different factions with a claim on the crown after Cnut died. 

History is full of shit like this, nobles wanted power and influence, they wanted the best possible marriage and they wanted it as soon as possible as medieval life was short. 

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

You think he's not going to hold a grudge against the Tyrells for kicking his mother out? And Tywin?

Again, history is notorious for ambitious but short sighted people. They don't turn down power and influence, they accept it and hoard it so the likes of Cersei and Tywin are not in a position to get retribution. 

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

 

The Queen holds no political power, she only exercises it through her husband and children. Margaery's reign would be short and possibly end disastrously for the Tyrells. 

Possibly. Again, flip open a history book, it is chock full of people who were ambitious and took chances, for some it worked out and for others it didnt.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

The Lyanna thing was so that Margaery would be the most attractive option. If Robert gets rid of Cersei, all the Lords would be clamoring for their daughters to marry him. Margaery has to get there first. 

Except thanks to Varys spy network we know what the plan was, bed and wed. Not the other way round. 

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Cersei is delusional and paranoid, she's fixated on the prophecy of a younger and more beautiful queen. He's not going to divorce her if the Lannisters owned a sizable chunk of the Iron Throne's debt,

that sounds like a great reason to start a conflict with the crown's largest debtor. Again, Robert won't be the first king who choose war over paying a debt. 

 

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Jaime was about to be named Warden of the East, and Robert Arryn was going to be sent to Casterly Rock. It would be a huge political scandal and Robert wouldn't risk Tywin's wrath- unless, of course, the queen had committed some horrible crime.

Indeed, you giving reasons why it was a poor plan does not stop it from being a plan. 

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

 

And quoting GRRM: "Divorce is pretty much unheard of (In Westeros)"

Sure, but Kings can do as they please. In the Rogue Prince Daemon was asking his brother to annul his marriage to the Lady Royce as he was sick of her - and the sheep. In the Blood of the Dragon the High Septon was offering, then demanding that he annul his marriage to his niece and there was the time Quentyn Ball was so eager to join the kingsguard he made his wife join the silent sisters so he would be eligible.  Marriages can be broken in Westeros and Robert, who killed the last heir and disinherited the people before him in the line of succession, was the kind of man who would. 

[FictionIsntReal]

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Mace is not mentioned, Rowan, Tarly and Oakheart are. There is no reason for either Penrose or the author to include this information if it was not true. This kind of misinformation serves no purpose for a dead character and until some other evidence is revealed to show that Penrose was wrong we can assume that  he was sincere.  We even find out that one of the Florent children is named after him. 

GRRM is pretty clear that Renly was loved, I'm pretty sure the reason he was given Storm's End was to mend fences with the Reach rebels, something he would be more capable of doing than Stannis 

How? 

Do people in this fandom really think gay or bisexual men are not capable of having children? That many real life gay/bisexual nobles throughout history have not done their duty and created heirs? 

I'd guess that Renly would be having more hetero sex in his marriage than Stannis has in his.

Mace's approval was required for Margaery to marry Renly, and Olenna was explicit about Mace backing Renly's kingship. He wasn't personally out there, but he didn't need to be. Mace has no particular desire to put himself near harm's way, and plenty of underlings more eager for glory.

GRRM has explicitly said that Stannis was given Dragonstone because Robert was carelessly generous and saw that as an indication that Stannis was his heir (prior to Joffrey's birth). Renly wasn't given Storm's End because Robert ceased being carelessly generous, he just had an additional castle and an additional brother (and didn't think of how that would look to Stannis). Renly's support from the Reach is stems from Loras squiring for him, Renly had already been lord there as a child.

Renly also jested to Stannis about the latter avoiding his wife's bed, but he didn't deny that his wife was still a maid. And I agree that he could have had children with her, but he didn't care enough to do his marital duties on his wedding night and I think that like Laenor Velaryon he may not have minded if Margaery had the politically necessary children with someone else (and note I used the word "likely" rather than "definitely"). Hopefully Margaery would not be as reckless as Rhaenyra in having children with someone who looks completely different, but I could see an argument that a cautious queen wouldn't be doing that at all even with an unwilling husband (Aerys I's wife had no bastards, but not Baelor the Blessed's did).

[Bernie Mac]

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Mace's approval was required for Margaery to marry Renly,

yup, at no point have I claimed differently, I was just disagreeing with your notion that the only reason the Reach lords rebelled was because of Mace. The books are pretty clear on the fact that some of those Reach lords are very fond of Renly.  

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

and Olenna was explicit about Mace backing Renly's kingship. He wasn't personally out there, but he didn't need to be. Mace has no particular desire to put himself near harm's way, and plenty of underlings more eager for glory.

Again, all great points, but not sure why you are telling me them. I would have thought they were fairly well known. 

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

GRRM has explicitly

You may want to brush up on the meaning of the word 'explicitly'

Stannis always resented being given Dragonstone while Renly got Storm's End, and took that as a slight... but it's not necessarily true that Robert meant it that way.

He gave it as a possible reason, but that does not mean it was the reason or the only reason. I'd guess decisions on this magnitude are done for various reasons. 

An important factor was that Stannis was given Dragonstone because Robert needed someone he could both trust and was strong enough to command the lords who would have been the biggest Targ supporters. He also needs a strong leader to command his navy as his biggest worry, even still in AGOT, is an attack from Essos. 

Stannis is the very embodiment of Robert's 'stick'. he uses him to keep the Targ hardcore royalists in line while he also marries him to a Florent to warn the Tyrells that there are other options to rule the Reach. 

Renly was the 'carrot' the charming younger brother who made releations between the Crown and the Reach better through his friendship with the Tyrells, Rowans, Tarlys, Oakhearts and even, seemingly, the Florents. 

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

said that Stannis was given Dragonstone because Robert was carelessly generous and saw that as an indication that Stannis was his heir (prior to Joffrey's birth).

Yup, both good reasons. 

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Renly wasn't given Storm's End because Robert ceased being carelessly generous, he just had an additional castle and an additional brother (and didn't think of how that would look to Stannis).

Not quite. Stannis was given Dragonstone in the aftermath of the war while Robert only gave away Storms End a couple of years later, we learn in ACOK from Stannis that Renly has only had it for 13 years. 

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Renly's support from the Reach is stems from Loras squiring for him, Renly had already been lord there as a child.

It also stems from his popularity with the likes of Rowan, Tarly and Oakheart. 

"If that is so, why is the Knight of Flowers not among you? And where is Mathis Rowan? Randyll Tarly? Lady Oakheart? Why are they not here in your company, they who loved Renly best? 

And of course Loras is not the only Tyrell fond of him. 

"Renly was brave and gentle, Grandmother," said Margaery. "Father liked him as well, and so did Loras."

Now I am generalizing here, not speaking to anyone directly but there is this bizarre attitude from some corners of the fandom that Renly's support was built primarily on having a boyfriend. There is this bizarre need to discount his popularity, with both commons and nobles alike and put it all down to who he was sleeping with. Renly didn't get the raise the largest army we have seen in the history of Westeros purely on whichever Tyrell sibling he was  schtupping, he got it because he shared an awful lot of similarities with his big brother Robert, people seemed to have just been willing to follow these guys

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Renly also jested to Stannis about the latter avoiding his wife's bed, but he didn't deny that his wife was still a maid.

Why would he? We know how noble marriage work in the medieval world, and they are remarkably similar in Westeros as we saw with Edmure or were told about Tywin and Joanna' wedding. There would have been witnesses. 

Renly is surround by her father's bannerman, no answer to that question is really dignified. 

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

And I agree that he could have had children with her, but he didn't care enough to do his marital duties on his wedding night

Possibly, possibly not. I'm not sure that has been confirmed either way. We really don't know the guys sexual persuasion, he could be bi, nor do we know how seriously he would take his duties or even if he aspired to have his own children. 

Theres a lot we don't know about him, but I'd guess a man of GRRM's age would not be under the same belief that some in the fandom have that gay men would never sleep with a woman. 

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

and I think that like Laenor Velaryon he may not have minded if Margaery had the politically necessary children with someone else (and note I used the word "likely" rather than "definitely").

Again, before the incest allegations that may even be true, after the allegations it is not something either Renly or the Tyrells could take a chance on. At least one Baratheon looking child would be expected.

 

[FictionIsntReal]

28 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Renly was the 'carrot' the charming younger brother who made releations between the Crown and the Reach better through his friendship with the Tyrells, Rowans, Tarlys, Oakhearts and even, seemingly, the Florents.

Not quite. Stannis was given Dragonstone in the aftermath of the war while Robert only gave away Storms End a couple of years later, we learn in ACOK from Stannis that Renly has only had it for 13 years. 

And of course Loras is not the only Tyrell fond of him. 

"Renly was brave and gentle, Grandmother," said Margaery. "Father liked him as well, and so did Loras."

Now I am generalizing here, not speaking to anyone directly but there is this bizarre attitude from some corners of the fandom that Renly's support was built primarily on having a boyfriend. There is this bizarre need to discount his popularity, with both commons and nobles alike and put it all down to who he was sleeping with. Renly didn't get the raise the largest army we have seen in the history of Westeros purely on whichever Tyrell sibling he was  schtupping, he got it because he shared an awful lot of similarities with his big brother Robert, people seemed to have just been willing to follow these guys

Possibly, possibly not. I'm not sure that has been confirmed either way. We really don't know the guys sexual persuasion, he could be bi, nor do we know how seriously he would take his duties or even if he aspired to have his own children. 

Theres a lot we don't know about him, but I'd guess a man of GRRM's age would not be under the same belief that some in the fandom have that gay men would never sleep with a woman. 

Again, before the incest allegations that may even be true, after the allegations it is not something either Renly or the Tyrells could take a chance on. At least one Baratheon looking child would be expected.

 

Renly was about 9 and had been raised at Storm's End rather than fostered in the Reach, he would not have had much in the way of political connections at the time. That may have started around the time he made his lord's progress at 16.

Those reacher lords are named because they were in Renly army at Bitterbridge, making their absence later noticeable. Perhaps they liked Renly, but they were there for a political reason: they were supporting his attempt to become king just as their lord paramount did. Stannis is able to absorb the Stormlander part of Renly's army after his death because he's their lord paramount (Renly being lord of Storm's End had indeed undermined him, aside from being personally dislikeable). It's not a coincidence that those lords who didn't switch over are from the Reach, where the ruling Tyrells still oppose Stannis.

I'm glad you're not speaking to me directly, because that's not what I claim. Renly & Loras are not openly gay, but they ARE openly allied. This relationship began when Loras squired for Renly, and that's part of the point of squiring & fostering. Robert, Ned & Jon Arryn were allies because the former two were fostered at the Eyrie. Olyvar Frey (yes, a Frey of all people!) was kept away from the Red Wedding because squiring for Robb made him too loyal, even after Robb's breaking of the betrothal led to him being sent back & replaced by a Westerling. Squiring & marriage together across families seems to be a common thing: Edric Dayne goes to serve Beric when his sister gets betrothed, king Robert had two Lannister squires in A Game of Thrones. It's not at all odd that Mace liked Renly, even in the eyes of people unaware Renly sexuality you'd expect that for Mace to hitch his horse to Renly via Margaery. I won't deny that Renly is politically skillful either, but I don't think it because he got various lesser reacher lords to support him. Instead it's that during his tenure as lord of Storm's End he got many stormlords to support him, even though Stannis should have come first. Then after that he got Mace Tyrell to support his schemes to make Margaery into Robert's mistress and then Renly's queen. But once he got Mace on board, the other reachlords follow.

The bedding ceremony is normative in westeros, and there are even witnesses for that reason. Even today, it would be considered very unusual if a married couple had a chaste wedding night. That Renly didn't consummate his marriage despite those norms and the political importance in this situation is strong evidence to me that he was not sexually interested in her. He could have overcome that disinterest to do his duty, but on that occasion when he was expected to do so, he didn't.

Renly wasn't publicly supporting the incest allegations, but it would indeed be sensible for the kids to look legitimate. That doesn't mean he has to be the father though.

[Trigger Warning]

It's simply unrealistic to expect whoever's backing an attempt to usurp the throne to have no personal ambition. They're using Renly to gain more power and Renly's using them to gain the throne. Every power structure in history has been made up of the intertwining ambitions of different people and besides Renly's not at the mercy of the Tyrells, Penrose lists half of the Reach's most prominent nobles as "those that love Renly best". The guy's been grooming friends in the Reach for a while evidently, what do the Tyrells gain from making Renly their enemy when they're getting nothing but benefits from having him as an ally, how can Renly getting one of the most powerful houses in the Seven Kingdoms that have personal ties to him to back his attempt to usurp his nephews be viewed as a bad decision. 

[Trigger Warning]

On 6/20/2018 at 8:00 PM, LindsayLohan said:

Renly might have been a poor decision-maker, but his plan was solid.  You can't expect your brother to show up with a fucking witch who kills you using magic.  Renly was doing the right thing:  Chilling out, unifying the Reach and Stormlands, letting the Stark/Tully alliance battle the Lannisters.  Renly's pitch to Catelyn was solid, too. 

I think Renly's only tactical mistake was getting big-brother'd by Stannis during their parlay before Renly's death.  Stannis set the terms of battle (first light) and Renly never bothered to question, as Renly was used to doing as Stannis instructed.  Renly then blew off Randyll Tarly's advice about charging into a blinding sun, as Renly's forces were almost entirely mounted, with no foot.  I have always had the feeling that, outside of Melissandre's efforts, Renly would have been dealt one of the most disastrous, humiliating defeats in the history of Westeros.  Stannis needed Renly's forces intact, though, and destroying them would have done no good (hence the blood magic). 

Other than that, Renly's plan was solid.  He wasn't about to attack King's Landing, but was in position to move on King's Landing quickly, if needed.  Tywin may have smashed himself against the River lords in an attempt to protect Casterly Rock.

 

GRRM purposefully put Stannis in a horrible military position to drive home how powerful Melisandre's magic is. Getting caught between a fortress and an army that is both superior in numbers and composition is basically sitting on the anvil as the hammer strikes, everything Stannis does is under the eyes of the garrison, he's got a little camp but no significant defences and Renly would see them if he did. He's going to have to pit his small army made up of mercenaries and lords of dubious loyalty against 20,000 heavy horse, well equipped, well trained and well armoured whilst an enemy garrison sallies from his rear completely obliterating morale in an army that'd probably start breaking down before Renly's vanguard even hit, cavalry are terrifying and Renly literally has 4 times their number in cavalry alone.

Even if Stannis' men can withstand a charge that envelops them on all sides as he's attacked in the rear then Renly's forces can simply adapt, each wing has their own commanders and a reserve, 20,000 men aren't going to be defeated in one quick fell swoop. Tarly's a capable commander and knows what he's talking about, he clearly likes to have every advantage however he protests little when Renly shoots him down, if he believed it was that significant I doubt he'd be cowed that easily from everything we've seen of the man and I don't see where you're coming up with Renly being used to following Stannis, he's been the lord of Storm's End and on the small council for years, with the little respect he has for Stannis I doubt he'd follow much instruction. 

Stannis went there despite these odds because Mel had a vision of his triumph, she just so happened to be the one that provided it. I really don't see any reason that Stannis would pull this off from a realistic standpoint or a narrative one, GRRM basically has written him into one of the worst positions he could be in militarily while Renly had every advantage but that all changed in an instant through magic, what does the idea that  Stannis would have won anyway add to the narrative.

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The bedding ceremony is normative in westeros, and there are even witnesses for that reason. Even today, it would be considered very unusual if a married couple had a chaste wedding night. That Renly didn't consummate his marriage despite those norms and the political importance in this situation is strong evidence to me that he was not sexually interested in her. He could have overcome that disinterest to do his duty, but on that occasion when he was expected to do so, he didn't.

 Likely he was having sex with at least fairly regularly. There is no real confirmation that Renly was chaste on his wedding night with a lot of stuff on the line.  

Catelyn III 

"We both know your wedding was a mummer's farce. A year ago you were scheming to make the girl one of Robert's whores."

"A year ago I was scheming to make the girl Robert's queen," Renly said, "but what does it matter? The boar got Robert and I got Margaery. You'll be pleased to know she came to me a maid."

"In your bed she's like to die that way." 

I'll get a son on her within the year. Pray, how many sons do you have, Stannis? Oh, yes—none." Renly smiled innocently. "As to your daughter, I understand. If my wife looked like yours, I'd send my fool to service her as well."

 

Renly seemed to think he'd be able to father a child onto Margary within a year which if anything he's been having sex with the girl fairly regular these last few months.  Nothing really hints he was unable to consummate his marriage. Just because he didn't fire back Stannis' attempt to mock Renly's sexuality  by saying explicity that yes he(Renly), did isn't really an admission that he was unable to have sex with the girl. It al If  Renly had been unable to perform his duties, it seems very unlikely, Mace or Olenna did not hear so from Margary's own lips and would continue to support a man unable/unwilling to fully their alliance. 

 

You don't need to be sexually attracted to someone to have sex with them. 

[Lee-Sensei]

On 6/20/2018 at 4:57 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Not just Loras

"If that is so, why is the Knight of Flowers not among you? And where is Mathis Rowan? Randyll Tarly? Lady Oakheart? Why are they not here in your company, they who loved Renly best? Where is Brienne of Tarth, I ask you?"

Rowan, Tarly and perhaps even Oakheart would be members of Renly's small council, he'd be surrounded by people who liked him. 

 

That is what he was expecting. Robert choose Arryn to be his Hand and Renly choose Mace, they were expected to help him run the realm. 

Renly seems to be more of a politician than his brothers, accepting the need for compromise. I can't see why he would have a problem with this, especially as we see Mace's involvement when he becomes a member of the small council after Renly's death, he is pretty passive until Cersei has his daughter arrested.

It is surprising Tarly that would love him.

[Lee-Sensei]

18 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

And there I was, thinking that Loras valued his sister.

What does that mean?

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Renly was about 9 and had been raised at Storm's End rather than fostered in the Reach, he would not have had much in the way of political connections at the time.

At no point have I claimed he was raised in the Reach, or that he was some political genius. He was charming, from a young age, much like Robert was and Eddric is

"As she wished. As she saw." Stannis sighed. "Did the boy charm you?" He has that gift. He got it from his father, with the blood.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"As you say, my lord." Robert was a different man than Stannis, true enough. The boy is like him. Aye, and like Renly as well. That thought made him anxious.

Renly, even at a young age, was charming and a great buffer to the Reach, that is what neighboring Lords do, they interact, and with Loras as his cupbearer/squire he would have plenty of means to mingle with the Reach lords. 

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

That may have started around the time he made his lord's progress at 16.

No, much earlier. 

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Those reacher lords are named because they were in Renly army at Bitterbridge,

No, their named because Penrose thinks Brienne, Loras, Rowan, Tarly and Oakheart are the ones who loved him best. There is an awful lot of language the author could have used if he did not want to give this impression, the language is deliberate especially as we see it 100% true with two of the five. 

Not sure why you have a problem with Renly being popular with these characters. 

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

making their absence later noticeable. Perhaps they liked Renly, but they were there for a political reason: they were supporting his attempt to become king just as their lord paramount did.

they were for both. Interestingly once he is dead Houses like the Florents, Crane, both of the Fossssoways and possibly Mullendore all choose to follow their own path rather than do as their Lord Paramount did. 

The Reach houses are more divided than than that, i every major Westeros civil war we have seen the support both sides, it is notable how they are all united behind Renly, none have chosen another side or even to play it neutral, the fact that the largest army we have ever seen in Westeros is testament to how much they are behind him. 

 

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Stannis is able to absorb the Stormlander part of Renly's army after his death because he's their lord paramount

They've already been raised and declared themselves rebels against the Crown, they don't really have a lot of options and given they hunger for glory and plunder it is easy to see why 

And he does not take all the Stormlands, his army is around 20k at kings Landing, 5k Narrow Seas and 15k from the Reach and Stormlands

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

(Renly being lord of Storm's End had indeed undermined him, aside from being personally dislikeable). It's not a coincidence that those lords who didn't switch over are from the Reach, where the ruling Tyrells still oppose Stannis.

Except they are not, we are told that the after the Blackwater the Florents are his biggest contingent. We know that at the Blackwater the Reach Housses Florent, Crane, Meadows, both Fossoways, Varner, Beesbury, Mullendore, Willum and possibly others. 

Stannis may well have had more Reach support than Stormland support in the Battle of Blackwater, he may even have had more Crownland support. 

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

The bedding ceremony is normative in westeros, and there are even witnesses for that reason. Even today, it would be considered very unusual if a married couple had a chaste wedding night. That Renly didn't consummate his marriage despite those norms

wait, we don't know that he didn't consummate the marriage. You are making an assumption based on the Tyrells being desperate for Margaery to be queen. 

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

 

Renly wasn't publicly supporting the incest allegations, but it would indeed be sensible for the kids to look legitimate. That doesn't mean he has to be the father though.

If they come out looking like someone other than him or Margaery he is now in trouble due to the allegations against Cersie's children.