Renly was a dummy

[Bernie Mac]

25 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

It is surprising Tarly that would love him.

Is it? He participates in tourneys, he surrounds himself with warriors and he is a confident charming young leader who he would have liked both his sons to emulate

[Lee-Sensei]

"He is a child still," Stannis declared, his anger ringing loud in the empty hall, "a thieving child who thinks to snatch the crown off my brow. What has Renly ever done to earn a throne? He sits in council and jests with Littlefinger, and at tourneys he dons his splendid suit of armor and allows himself to be knocked off his horse by a better man. That is the sum of my brother Renly, who thinks he ought to be a king. I ask you, why did the gods inflict me with brothers?"

I thought he preferred more martial people.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

What does that mean?

Meaning that I thought he loved and valued his sister that he wouldn’t pimp her out to someone like Robert Baratheon.

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Meaning that I thought he loved and valued his sister that he wouldn’t pimp her out to someone like Robert Baratheon.

I really don't see how this could be worse than many arranged marriages; sons and daughters are bartered off for their family's benefit. Robert is the king. Marrying  to him is the highest thing a noblewoman like Margary could hope to do. 

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Meaning that I thought he loved and valued his sister that he wouldn’t pimp her out to someone like Robert Baratheon.

You mean the king? That is the best possible match.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

You mean the king? That is the best possible match.

A king who is 2.5 times her age and would likely abuse her because she’s not Lyanna Stark.

[Lee-Sensei]

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

A king who is 2.5 times her age and would likely abuse her because she’s not Lyanna Stark.

The age difference is irrelevant and did Robert ever hit a woman aside from Cersei? Why would he hit her?

[Angel Eyes]

5 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

The age difference is irrelevant and did Robert ever hit a woman aside from Cersei? Why would he hit her?

What makes you think he wouldn’t? 

[Lee-Sensei]

9 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

What makes you think he wouldn’t? 

Do you have examples of him hitting any other woman?

[Varysblackfyre321]

16 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

A king who is 2.5 times her age and would likely abuse her because she’s not Lyanna Stark.

The age difference isn't really controversial. And likely Robert would not abuse Margary. Cersi was very confrontational. No excuse for domestic abuse but Margary would stroke Robert's ego, and likely try to get Robert to like her through participating in his hobbies,. And, Robert didn't abuse Cersi because she wasn't Lyanna. We don't see him beating or hear of him beating  her in a drunken stupor over her not being Lyanna. 

[FictionIsntReal]

On 6/22/2018 at 8:31 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

The age difference is irrelevant and did Robert ever hit a woman aside from Cersei? Why would he hit her?

I think it's worth noting that Cersei typically did her best to hide any bruises to prevent Jaime from seeing them and killing Robert. The Tyrells presumably wouldn't know about this when angling to set Margaery up with him.

[Lee-Sensei]

14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I think it's worth noting that Cersei typically did her best to hide any bruises to prevent Jaime from seeing them and killing Robert. The Tyrells presumably wouldn't know about this when angling to set Margaery up with him.

From trying to kill him. I still can't think of another woman that he had hit.

[Peach King]

On 6/22/2018 at 3:56 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Not really, look at the time timeline.

• Renly warns Ned that Cersei will destroy them,
• Ned refuses his offer and from Renly's perspective thinks Ned is going to support Joffrey
• leaves the city and hears the loyal Ned has been arrested, possibly revealing to Cersei Renly's idea to arrest her
• Joffrey demands Renly and other lords come to Kings Landing and swear fealty or forfeit their lands
• Renly has no choice, go and likely be arrested or declare himself king. 

Obviously Renly is ambitious and loves the prospect of becoming King, but he was kind of forced into it. 

He didn't, nor the authority, but if he knew the truth he would inform Ned and be rid of a woman he is aware wants him dead, and she actually does as she reveals as much in AFFC

he kind of is, well at southern politics at least, a more intelligent man would have informed Renly and others rather than rely entirely on Littlefinger. 

that is not lying, that is being polite. Everyone else thinks Brienne is absurd, for that time period she most definitely is,  Renly has the decency to treat her like she wants to be treated and even respects her as a knight (to some degree)

You can argue it is two faced, but is really the better thing to say the things he, and everyone else believes, to her face and treat her less than, like the majority of people do? 

no, look at his reaction after the meeting.

"You have a cheerful way of grieving," said Catelyn, whose distress was not feigned.

"Do I?" Renly shrugged. "So be it. Stannis was never the most cherished of brothers, I confess. Do you suppose this tale of his is true? If Joffrey is the Kingslayer's get—"

"—your brother is the lawful heir."

"While he lives," Renly admitted. "Though it's a fool's law, wouldn't you agree?

 

he seems happy with the news as he should be. Renly knows that keeping the realm happy is important to keeping the crown and kings who usurp their nephews and niece are likely to be vilified.  Usurping one person instead of four is better for Renly, not worse. 

 

the Reach lords have already agreed to support him in usurping Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella and Stannis. Why would they object to him only usurping Stannis? 

Besides, we know that Renly is loved by the Reach lords

"If that is so, why is the Knight of Flowers not among you? And where is Mathis Rowan? Randyll Tarly? Lady Oakheart? Why are they not here in your company, they who loved Renly best? Where is Brienne of Tarth, I ask you?"

and we know Stannis is not exactly popular with them, due to the belief that he carries a grudge and the Reach army starving him when he was a teenager. 

Renly has already been declared, already has the largest army. Any rumor that lessens Lannister support is great for him, they are the threat, not Stannis and his 5k.  

People believing that Joffrey and his siblings are the true heirs is bad for him, as the Lannisters have the means to carry on fighting a lot longer than Stannis, their wealth should have brought the Golden Company and 10 others to Westeros to win the crown. 

I agree. Cersie and Renly think otherwise. 

Characters are allowed to make plans that might not work, you know. 

Well that was established. 

"He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"

Cersie is well aware of Robert's fetish, as is Renly

 Inside was a miniature painted in the vivid Myrish style, of a lovely young girl with doe's eyes and a cascade of soft brown hair. Renly had seemed anxious to know if the girl reminded him of anyone, and when Ned had no answer but a shrug, he had seemed disappointed. The maid was Loras Tyrell's sister Margaery, he'd confessed, but there were those who said she looked like Lyanna. "No," Ned had told him, bemused. Could it be that Lord Renly, who looked so like a young Robert, had conceived a passion for a girl he fancied to be a young Lyanna? That struck him as more than passing queer.

Renly was counting on Margaery, who he thought looked like Lyanna, would be able to seduce him and make him put Cersei aside. if he knew the truth he would not need a Lyanna lookalike. 

And to reiterate; I also don't think the plan would have worked, but many plans don't. 

He's not. He declared for Renly early, he killed Stannis royalists at Bitterbridge before making a deal with the Crown and as soon as Aegon invaded the North he was on his merry way to fight him without even knowing what kind of force he has. 

He is not a cautious man. The small council meeting when Balon offers an alliance and the only price being the North both Mace and his best friend Redwyne agree to the deal.  Giving away a huge chunk of the kingdom after the first offer is not caution, its reckless. 

then the plan does not go ahead as we know the plan was for her to seduce him

The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen.

either he agrees to the plan or not, but there is no wedding until Margaery can make him fall in love with her and she can't do that from Highgarden. 

 

and to reiterate once more, I'm with you, its not a great plan with no guarantee of success, but that is what the plan was and many plans are gambles. 

Joffrey does not become king when he comes of age, he becomes king when his father dies. The potential decades between that would see the Tyrells trying to secure as much power as they need to. 

I don't want to be rude, but do you read much history?  Kings with heirs married or took on mistresses from powerful houses. Obviously Henry VIII is the most well known one but there were others such as the two hugely influential paramours of Francis I of France, Anna Jeanne de Pisseleu d'Heilly and  Françoise de Foix, Comtesse de Châteaubriant or even Cnut the Great who despite having two sons with his paramour (marriage was more lax in scandanavia than the mainland) he decided to marry the wife of the english king he defeated, Athelred the Unready, who she already had two sons with and they would marry to produce one son, a huge mess of three different factions with a claim on the crown after Cnut died. 

History is full of shit like this, nobles wanted power and influence, they wanted the best possible marriage and they wanted it as soon as possible as medieval life was short. 

Again, history is notorious for ambitious but short sighted people. They don't turn down power and influence, they accept it and hoard it so the likes of Cersei and Tywin are not in a position to get retribution. 

Possibly. Again, flip open a history book, it is chock full of people who were ambitious and took chances, for some it worked out and for others it didnt.

Except thanks to Varys spy network we know what the plan was, bed and wed. Not the other way round. 

that sounds like a great reason to start a conflict with the crown's largest debtor. Again, Robert won't be the first king who choose war over paying a debt. 

 

Indeed, you giving reasons why it was a poor plan does not stop it from being a plan. 

Sure, but Kings can do as they please. In the Rogue Prince Daemon was asking his brother to annul his marriage to the Lady Royce as he was sick of her - and the sheep. In the Blood of the Dragon the High Septon was offering, then demanding that he annul his marriage to his niece and there was the time Quentyn Ball was so eager to join the kingsguard he made his wife join the silent sisters so he would be eligible.  Marriages can be broken in Westeros and Robert, who killed the last heir and disinherited the people before him in the line of succession, was the kind of man who would. 

Alright.... 

It wasn't like that was his only choice. He could have supported Stannis, supported Robb, spent his days in hiding, left Westeros.

Why is Renly so sure Cersei would want him dead? Renly having knowledge of the incest would make Cersei fear for her life and that of her children.

I thought about it and edited my answer, with more reasons why Renly wouldn't reveal the truth to Ned. 

I wouldn't trust Renly either...but the point is Renly couldn't have just told Ned of the incest without Ned figuring out the rest.

Never mind the morality of it, it shows Renly is capable of being deceptive and putting on false appearances.

If Renly is aware that the incest accusations would strengthen his claim, why doesn't he agree with Stannis? Be all "That's great news Stannis. 
No one likes you anyway so I get to be king YAY". Then steamroll him and the Lannisters. It seems like he wants to undermine Stannis. It could be because he views him as the bigger threat. 

Renly is usurping a monster, two kids, and a false claimant to the throne. The Lannisters are also hated, so it's not like anyone will care about taking up arms against them. Even if Stannis is unpopular, if he is the heir, that changes a lot. 

Renly is passing off his act of usurpation as being a rehash of Robert's Rebellion, the glorious and heroic King (in his mind) overthrowing the other Kings who would bring destruction to the realm. But how would these young lords and knights look if they're actually overthrowing the rightful king Stannis, who is doing it out of a sense of duty or honour, instead of being a usurper like Renly? Renly says he doesn't buy the incest, and is amused. He dismisses Stannis' claims,and no one else seems to buy it either. I don't see how he's happy about the news either. He makes a casual mention of it maybe being true, then brushes it off with "YEAH WELL I'LL BE THE BETTER KING ANYWAYS" and boils it down to their personal qualities. And Catelyn is wavering yet. Renly might have counted on her support like he counted on the Dornish.

No I've not read a lot of history. But Mace is Lord Paramount over the Reach, are those other Lords that powerful? Margaery is one of House Tyrell's most valuable assets, she has a sizable number of much better marriage prospects than an Anne Boleyn hack job. There are safer ways to gain influence. And Olenna mentions it's the throne that Mace wants.

Renly had overwhelming support and looked to be the best claimant out of the 5 Kings. Nothing short of magic would have stopped him. And I would argue Mace's whole war strategy during Robert's Rebellion was structured on being cautious. Batter Storm's End without actually battling anyone, so he doesn't lose men, or have major repercussions if either side wins. And he doesn't. He's been able to jump from Renly to Joffrey to Tommen without losing much in the process, which is a credit in his favour. He also only agreed to marry Margaery to Joffrey on the condition that Loras was made Kingsguard, whom he figured was sufficient protection. Mace loves his children - he immediately abandons his siege and races to King's Landing with an army when he hears Margaery has been arrested. Doesn't Tywin have a fearsome reputation? I doubt Mace would risk his ire. He doesn't have a habit of making enemies out of Great Houses without worthwhile reason. There is no way he is going to just throw Margaery at Robert when there's a chance of her getting hurt and the plan having so many liabilities. Honestly, the whole thing hinges on Mace being dumber than a doorknob , I know he's an oaf - but this much?

Margaery would look the best out of all available contestants. Robert was already sleeping with a number of women. If she looks like Lyanna AND is sleeping with Robert, she's perfect wife material.

Robert only did that because the last king was a tyrant. He's had an opportunity to get rid of Cersei for 15 years and so far he hasn't, I don't know why Renly and Mace would think he suddenly would. Unless their whole plan was just "LYANNA" . 

Renly also had Edric Storm living with him in Storm's End, and he and Loras got their amour done at Tobho Mott's, where Gendry works. If Renly is smart (which I think he is), surely he (or Loras) would have noticed a kid looking exactly like himself, as Gendry does according to Brienne, and figured he's one of Robert's bastards. Surely he would contrast the Lannister bastards with Edric and made the whole Baratheon = black of hair connection.

[Peach King]

On 6/22/2018 at 3:42 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

I am not telling you that. Renly says it twice himself. Don't get me wrong. He definitely warms up to the idea, though his speech is more about how Stannis sucks than how awesome he is. He needed allies and the only effective way to that while saving his life is to rebel. He holds power and land at the discretion of the king. Cersei can easily strip him of both as queen regent and she wants him dead ASAP. Hell she complains that Robert died before she could off Stannis and Renly. 

Possibly but there is literally no textual support for it. Renly clearly doesn't give a shit if he has to jump one person or four people in the line of succession. If he knew about the incest, he'd have been involved with Jon Arryn and Stannis. He'd have mentioned it to Ned. He gains literally nothing and fears the Lannisters.

I'm ever so sorry for making a joke about GRRMs typing speed. Never again shall I show such blatant disrespect to the alpha and the omega of A Song of Ice and Fire.

Oh for sure she is. However you can't really be unreliable with respect to your own thoughts. She might well be mistaken on how easy it is, but she literally cannot unreliably narrate her own thoughts or words. Her words and thoughts are canon. GRRM's opinion on the matter is important to take into account but his contribution is hardly what you say:

that at best you've made a mistake and are in a situation that doesn't have any easy solution in a society such as that of the Seven Kingdoms, where divorce simply isn't common.

Uncommon is not "practically non-existent." So it is possible but uncommon and Cersei is worried about it. Seems to me like it's something Renly could have used in protecting himself.

Oh yeah Renly definitely wanted some Lannister payback, but that's not his primary motivation. "Look at me I'm a king!" remember? Though I think he wanted acclaim more than power. 

What if he's just a sneaky guy... Who wants to help his lover's family and himself over his brothers. Not that I blame him (they suck). If he reveals the incest early, the Margaery plot doesn't go through, and so does Renly's gateway to a faboo life. 

Oh sorry, I read that wrong. 

Sure she can. Cersei is literally mentally ill. "Put aside" is very vague anyways. And there's another quote where GRRM says it's unheard of. Even though I can't find it right now. 

Renly wasn't being hunted down by big bad Cersei. He and Stannis started sniffing around first and she felt threatened. 

You may be right though, and he did not know. I am certainly being swayed by this thread. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Oh yeah Renly definitely wanted some Lannister payback, but that's not his primary motivation. "Look at me I'm a king!" remember? Though I think he wanted acclaim more than power. 

A quote from when he was 7? Bold start

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

What if he's just a sneaky guy... Who wants to help his lover's family and himself over his brothers. Not that I blame him (they suck). If he reveals the incest early, the Margaery plot doesn't go through, and so does Renly's gateway to a faboo life. 

There's, once again, literally no textual evidence for that 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Oh sorry, I read that wrong. 

Sure she can. Cersei is literally mentally ill. "Put aside" is very vague anyways. And there's another quote where GRRM says it's unheard of. Even though I can't find it right now. 

You won't find it. I literally quoted it in my post:

that at best you've made a mistake and are in a situation that doesn't have any easy solution in a society such as that of the Seven Kingdoms, where divorce simply isn't common.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Renly wasn't being hunted down by big bad Cersei. He and Stannis started sniffing around first and she felt threatened. 

That's a half truth. We know she wanted them dead before Robert. But either way, she had committed treason four times over. Stannis and Renly have absolutely moral and legal justification to do as they did, even if Renly didn't know why.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

You may be right though, and he did not know. I am certainly being swayed by this thread. 

I just don't see anything that points to Renly knowing. The story would be much more different if he had known.

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Alright.... 

It wasn't like that was his only choice. He could have supported Stannis,

Stannis only declared himself King after Renly had. Stannis was silent doing nothing at Dragonstone. There was nothing to support. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

supported Robb,

supported him for what? Robb was the son of the still living Lord of the North, why would Renly choose to support someone of a lower rank, especially as he tried to support Ned and Ned refused him. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

spent his days in hiding, left Westeros.

sure, so could Robb and Stannis. 

Would you choose to become an exile or would you stay and fight for what was yours?

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Why is Renly so sure Cersei would want him dead?

They did not like eachother, hated each other. He was convinced she wanted him dead and thanks to Cersei's pov chapter we know that was the case

his meddling had forced her to rid herself of Robert sooner than she would have liked, before she could deal with his pestilential brothers. 

 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Renly having knowledge of the incest would make Cersei fear for her life and that of her children.

but she is not fearful for her life, she is fearful that she is going to be put aside. Being put aside is the least of her worries if Robert knew the truth, she'd be headless. 

"He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"

At no point do Cersei or Jaime think that Renly knew about them, at no point does Renly's words or actions make it appear that he did know. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

I thought about it and edited my answer, with more reasons why Renly wouldn't reveal the truth to Ned. 

That is great, but I am not  rereading four pages to find them, do you have a link to what these reasons are? 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

I wouldn't trust Renly either...but the point is Renly couldn't have just told Ned of the incest without Ned figuring out the rest.

Of course he could.  Ned I believe the Queen has been cuckolding the King. Affairs happen. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Never mind the morality of it,

sorry, you want to explain this? 

Do you really think that the more moral thing to do is be hurtful to someone? The moral thing is to not say shitty things to a person. Jaime telling her she was a freak and a monstrosity is not more moral than Renly treating her with respect. 

People seem to be desperate to find blame with Renly, but he was one of a handful of people who treated her with respect and dignity even if he shared the same views of her lifestyle choice as the rest of Westeros. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

 

it shows Renly is capable of being deceptive and putting on false appearances.

You mean being polite? 

Again, you are reaching. All of Westeros view the idea of a noble woman becoming a knight as a joke, it would be the same if Ned decided that he wanted to be a seamstress. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

If Renly is aware that the incest accusations would strengthen his claim, why doesn't he agree with Stannis? Be all "That's great news Stannis. 

To highlight to the reader that he did not know. Considering that Renly is not a POV, none of his inner circle are POV's then the only way the author can convey the fact that Renly did not know is by having the character tell the reader that he did not know. 

And why would Renly need to lie? 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

No one likes you anyway so I get to be king YAY". Then steamroll him and the Lannisters. It seems like he wants to undermine Stannis. It could be because he views him as the bigger threat. 

Stannis has an army of 5k, he does not need undermining.

The whole realm already know that Renly is usurping Stannis (as well as Joffrey and Tommen), 

"Tommen is no less a Lannister," Ser Marq Piper snapped.

"As you say," said Robb, troubled. "Yet if neither one is king, still, how could it be Lord Renly? He's Robert's younger brother. Bran can't be Lord of Winterfell before me, and Renly can't be king before Lord Stannis."

 

His followers don't care. They've already sworn their oaths to him. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Renly is usurping a monster,

We know Joffrey is a monster because of his treatment to Sansa and Tyrion after Ned's arrest, which Renly was not around for, 99.9% of the realm don't know that. To most of the realm they would see him in a similar light to how Sansa first saw him. 

the Reach lords have not crowned Renly because they think Joffrey as a monster, they are doing so because they are in favor of Renly, him being King allows them to rise. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

 

two kids, and a false claimant to the throne. The Lannisters are also hated,

not in the Reach they are not, or the Stormlands. Renly's support are from two realms who are neutral on the Lannisters. 

Not that it matters, Joffrey is thought of as a Baratheon. the reader thinks of him as a Lannister because we know the truth, the people of Westeros see him as the son of Robert. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

so it's not like anyone will care about taking up arms against them. Even if Stannis is unpopular, if he is the heir, that changes a lot. 

yet legally he is not. in the eyes of the law of Westeros Joffrey, being the acknowledged son of Robert, is the legal heir. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Renly is passing off his act of usurpation as being a rehash of Robert's Rebellion, the glorious and heroic King (in his mind) overthrowing the other Kings who would bring destruction to the realm. But how would these young lords and knights look if they're actually overthrowing the rightful king Stannis,

they already are. there is not a single person who is not aware that Stannis is ahead of Renly in the line of succession. This is covered at Riverrun when despite them all thinking Joffrey and Tommen were Robert's sons that they can't support Renly as Stannis, who had not even declared at that point, was still ahead of him. 

the Reach and Stormlords (for the most part) don't care. They have given their support to the 4th in line, that does not change if he becomes the 2nd in line. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

who is doing it out of a sense of duty or honour, instead of being a usurper like Renly?

lol come on. he has been silent on the matter and only after Robert's death and Renly and Robb declare themselves king does he speak up. 

To an outsider Stannis' actions at best look opportunistic, at worst he deliberately said nothing to warn Robert when his brother was still alive. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

 

Renly says Stannis might have the better claim, not that he may be the rightful king. Meaning Stannis maybe one step above him in the succession, but is still a traitor, like Renly. Since they're equally treasonous, it's all about who has the bigger army now. I don't see how he's happy about the incest.

and yet he is, he is giddy with the idea it is true when he brings it up to Cat. 

• Renly is scared for his life yet does not bring it up to Ned, when he is desperate to remove Cersei from power
• he laughs at the idea of the story to Stannis
• he is excited when talking about if it is true

why is the author having Renly react like this? Why are you ignoring all the actual evidence to come up with a conspiracy theory?

and what does it actually matter? Renly is dead, he died years ago, what impact on the story does it have on the story other than to convince some Stannis fans that they are justified in their hatred of the character?

 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

 

He makes a casual mention of it maybe being true, then brushes it off like "YEAH WELL I'LL BE THE BETTER KING ANYWAYS" and boils it down to their personal qualities. And Catelyn is wavering yet. Renly might have counted on her support like he counted on the Dornish.

he didn't count on either of their support. He has an army almost 100k strong. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

No I've not read a lot of history. But Mace is Lord Paramount over the Reach, are those other Lords that powerful?

yes, given the Reach can raise an army double of all the other realms, triple of some. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

 

Margaery is one of House Tyrell's most valuable assets, she has a sizable number of much better marriage prospects than an Anne Boleyn hack job. 

no she does not, the King is the best marriage option she can get. 

name all the superior marriage options to Robert? 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Renly had overwhelming support and looked to be the best claimant out of the 5 Kings.

only because of Mace's support. Without it Joffrey is the best claimant. 

Mace was the literal kingmaker of the war, whoever he supported was likely to win.  You can't claim that Mace only supported the strongest claimant when it was his support that made him so. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

. There is no way he is going to just throw Margaery at Robert when there's a chance of her getting hurt and the plan having so many liabilities.

and yet he did, it is written in the books. 

Varys spies intercepted the plan, Margaery was to seduce Robert by sleeping with him. That is the plan in the books, you not liking it does not change anything. 

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

41 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

and yet he is, he is giddy with the idea it is true when he brings it up to Cat. 

• Renly is scared for his life yet does not bring it up to Ned, when he is desperate to remove Cersei from power
• he laughs at the idea of the story to Stannis
• he is excited when talking about if it is true

He does bring it up to Ned:

“Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. “Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us.”
“Then we should pray that Robert does not die.”
“Small chance of that,” said Renly.
“Sometimes the gods are merciful.”
“The Lannisters are not.” Lord Renly turned away and went back across the moat, to the tower where his brother lay dying.”

It's not 100% explicit, but I think the meaning is pretty clear. That Renly leaves KL before Robert died and before Cersei could put her machinations into play would confirm it.

[Peach King]

On 6/25/2018 at 10:15 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Stannis only declared himself King after Renly had. Stannis was silent doing nothing at Dragonstone. There was nothing to support. 

supported him for what? Robb was the son of the still living Lord of the North, why would Renly choose to support someone of a lower rank, especially as he tried to support Ned and Ned refused him. 

sure, so could Robb and Stannis. 

Would you choose to become an exile or would you stay and fight for what was yours?

They did not like eachother, hated each other. He was convinced she wanted him dead and thanks to Cersei's pov chapter we know that was the case

his meddling had forced her to rid herself of Robert sooner than she would have liked, before she could deal with his pestilential brothers. 

 

but she is not fearful for her life, she is fearful that she is going to be put aside. Being put aside is the least of her worries if Robert knew the truth, she'd be headless. 

"He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"

At no point do Cersei or Jaime think that Renly knew about them, at no point does Renly's words or actions make it appear that he did know. 

That is great, but I am not  rereading four pages to find them, do you have a link to what these reasons are? 

Of course he could.  Ned I believe the Queen has been cuckolding the King. Affairs happen. 

sorry, you want to explain this? 

Do you really think that the more moral thing to do is be hurtful to someone? The moral thing is to not say shitty things to a person. Jaime telling her she was a freak and a monstrosity is not more moral than Renly treating her with respect. 

People seem to be desperate to find blame with Renly, but he was one of a handful of people who treated her with respect and dignity even if he shared the same views of her lifestyle choice as the rest of Westeros. 

You mean being polite? 

Again, you are reaching. All of Westeros view the idea of a noble woman becoming a knight as a joke, it would be the same if Ned decided that he wanted to be a seamstress. 

To highlight to the reader that he did not know. Considering that Renly is not a POV, none of his inner circle are POV's then the only way the author can convey the fact that Renly did not know is by having the character tell the reader that he did not know. 

And why would Renly need to lie? 

Stannis has an army of 5k, he does not need undermining.

The whole realm already know that Renly is usurping Stannis (as well as Joffrey and Tommen), 

"Tommen is no less a Lannister," Ser Marq Piper snapped.

"As you say," said Robb, troubled. "Yet if neither one is king, still, how could it be Lord Renly? He's Robert's younger brother. Bran can't be Lord of Winterfell before me, and Renly can't be king before Lord Stannis."

 

His followers don't care. They've already sworn their oaths to him. 

We know Joffrey is a monster because of his treatment to Sansa and Tyrion after Ned's arrest, which Renly was not around for, 99.9% of the realm don't know that. To most of the realm they would see him in a similar light to how Sansa first saw him. 

the Reach lords have not crowned Renly because they think Joffrey as a monster, they are doing so because they are in favor of Renly, him being King allows them to rise. 

not in the Reach they are not, or the Stormlands. Renly's support are from two realms who are neutral on the Lannisters. 

Not that it matters, Joffrey is thought of as a Baratheon. the reader thinks of him as a Lannister because we know the truth, the people of Westeros see him as the son of Robert. 

yet legally he is not. in the eyes of the law of Westeros Joffrey, being the acknowledged son of Robert, is the legal heir. 

they already are. there is not a single person who is not aware that Stannis is ahead of Renly in the line of succession. This is covered at Riverrun when despite them all thinking Joffrey and Tommen were Robert's sons that they can't support Renly as Stannis, who had not even declared at that point, was still ahead of him. 

the Reach and Stormlords (for the most part) don't care. They have given their support to the 4th in line, that does not change if he becomes the 2nd in line. 

lol come on. he has been silent on the matter and only after Robert's death and Renly and Robb declare themselves king does he speak up. 

To an outsider Stannis' actions at best look opportunistic, at worst he deliberately said nothing to warn Robert when his brother was still alive. 

and yet he is, he is giddy with the idea it is true when he brings it up to Cat. 

• Renly is scared for his life yet does not bring it up to Ned, when he is desperate to remove Cersei from power
• he laughs at the idea of the story to Stannis
• he is excited when talking about if it is true

why is the author having Renly react like this? Why are you ignoring all the actual evidence to come up with a conspiracy theory?

and what does it actually matter? Renly is dead, he died years ago, what impact on the story does it have on the story other than to convince some Stannis fans that they are justified in their hatred of the character?

 

he didn't count on either of their support. He has an army almost 100k strong. 

yes, given the Reach can raise an army double of all the other realms, triple of some. 

no she does not, the King is the best marriage option she can get. 

name all the superior marriage options to Robert? 

only because of Mace's support. Without it Joffrey is the best claimant. 

Mace was the literal kingmaker of the war, whoever he supported was likely to win.  You can't claim that Mace only supported the strongest claimant when it was his support that made him so. 

and yet he did, it is written in the books. 

Varys spies intercepted the plan, Margaery was to seduce Robert by sleeping with him. That is the plan in the books, you not liking it does not change anything. 

 

 

Hypothetically. In a situation where Renly knew of the incest:

He could have sent ravens to Stannis. He didn't even think of it as an option. Barring that, he could have raised his banners in open rebellion without declaring himself king and then given his army to Stannis. 

Supporting Robb.. OK yeah. 

You cannot compare Stannis and Robb to Renly. Stannis is doing his duty, and Robb does not want the Iron Throne, he is rebelling against the Lannisters for killing his father. How does Renly have a right to the throne? He doesn't. 

So Cersei would try to kill him merely because she doesn't like him?  Has Renly seen Cersei acting like a psychopath in the past? All he knows is she's a nasty and shrewish woman, not that she's evil. Renly doesn't have to know that Cersei knows. He just has to think she does. If he knew her secret, she'd have a legitimate reason to want him dead. 

With her brother? And you think Ned wouldn't make the connection? That's a big risk.  

Here you go:

"Theres another reason telling Ned the truth would not bode well for Renly, because there's no guarantee that Ned will believe him. He may view it as Renly's poor attempt at a coup. Ned has all the power, and Renly is trying to both ingratiate himself to Ned and trying to see if Ned would actually use the political power given to him. But because Ned remains honorable, Renly decided that the path to the throne did not lie with him and chose to escape. "

Renly did not know that Ned knew about the incest, all he knew at that point that Ned was against the Lannisters. So he suggests a "safe" plan: get rid of Cersei and her men and ensure that Joffrey is under Baratheon/Stark "protection", so he can get influence and power. He might have revealed the incest afterwards, when his position in KingsLanding would be secure and Lannisters were under control. It could even be he doesn't plan on amassing power or anything, and was fine with Ned being Regent.  However he could not have just told Ned without arousing suspicion. 

You're really whitewashing Renly right now. I don't hate Renly. But he did not treat Brienne with respect - he was using her as a meatshield. Renly didn't have a choice about letting her into the Rainbow Guard because its her reward for winning the Tourney. 

He did not have to do that. He could have:

1. Expressed surprise first

2. Agreed with the incest claims

3. Mowed down Stannis and the Lannisters

As you say it would only help him to agree with the allegations. Yet he does not. 

Joffrey was executing people for fun at the time. Of course he's viewed as a monster. Even if he's not viewed as a monster, he is controlled by the Lannisters whom the knights and lords dislike. The very fact they so easily follow Renly and Stannis is a proof of their dislike. In all honesty they don't even have to be loathed, the important thing is they're more hated than Stannis. As you said, as far as most people knew, Joffrey was a Baratheon. The Stormlords should've supported him over both Stannis and Renly. But even after Renly was killed, the Stormlords would rather support Stannis than Joffrey.

Here's why Renly would lie. Renly mostly needs to make his claim against Stannis at this point because he needs to unite the opposition against the Lannisters. He doesn't need to justify his opposition to Joffrey nearly as much as the one against Stannis, whom he's facing on the field right now. The people have already committed to overthrowing Cersei's children, they are divided into pro-Stannis and pro-Renly factions, and so the question will be who they will continue to support against the Lannisters. 

The Reach lords are already in open rebellion. None will follow Joffrey over Renly as he no doubt is aware of, but if they now discover that they can do both, oppose Joffrey and still follow (or publically appear to follow) Robert's lawful succession, it might cause them to consider Stannis.The Stormlords are Renly's to an extent, but its not guaranteed they'll back him. A number of them did consider going over to Stannis at the start but choose to side with Renly, so it's known loyalties can be changed. 

Westerosi society is built around primogeniture laws. What Renly is doing is very destabilizing, and those lords and knights mostly follow him because he looks like their best ticket to glory and riches. Even still, if they publicly support Renly's claim, its in their vested interest to uphold the right of rule by inheritance as they all draw their own power from it. Otherwise whose to say their younger brothers and cousins won't fuck them over on the basis of being more handsome, more popular, more charming? Stannis has a chance of looking like the more attractive option if he's not one of two usurpers, but Robert's rightful heir as it won't lead to succession crises in future.

To reiterate what I said: Joffrey being the rightful king means Stannis and Renly are both traitors. So why not support the cool and charismatic traitor instead of the dour and harsh one? That's Renly's entire appeal. Why is Renly popular and why is everyone following him? Because he puts on the image of being a good king - kind, generous, strong. Renly is trying to make himself the claimant most suited to the throne. That could be a reason he would undermine Stannis, to portray him as the worse deal and to uphold his own image. 

If Renly reveals he knew about the incest, only he is being traitorous however. So he is left looking really bad. He does not look like the best claimant to the throne anymore. It would look like he cares enough about primogeniture laws to rebel against Joffrey but not enough to support his elder brother. It would seem like he's some opportunistic lord rather than the saviour of the realm from the scummy Lannisters. If Renly loses his image, he would lose his entire claim to the throne, as he bases it on entirely on being well liked instead of who has the better claim. Now who is going to like Renly? He has neither the law or personal popularity on his side. Stannis is the heir, Renly is a power hungry traitor, ergo they might follow Stannis instead of Renly. Which is not good for Renly. 

Stannis does get support from houses after he sends out his letters - specifically from the Crown lands. So it can't be said that no one would support Stannis anywaaay. Renly's acknowledgement of the twincest might just be the tipping stone in his favour. 

Think of it this way:

If Renly lies 

It's 2 usurpers, (both on equal grounds, but one looks better) against the Lannisters - whom everyone has already rebelled against and hate

If Renly tells the truth

It's a usurper (looks bad) and the rightful king (looks good) against the Lannisters (unpopular bastards) 

Yes Stannis took a long time on Dragonstone. That doesn't mean Renly had to overthrow him. 

If he told Ned about the incest then Ned might have thought that Renly was lying and planning to usurp and kill his nephews and niece. Ned is known to be against killing children and is all about "MUH HONOR" so he wouldn't have supported Renly. Or Renly might even have thought that Ned would tell Cersei in an effort to keep her kids safe as Ned is wont to do, that stand-up guy..

Uh yes he laughs in Stannis' face and mocks him. That doesn't mean he's happy about it. 

He is not excited. He makes mention of it, and then dismisses it and immediately changes the subject and talks about his good qualities. 

I am not a Stannis fan. I am just trying to make sense of Renly's actions with his dumb plan of of marrying Margaery to Robert without knowledge of the incest. So now I know--he and Mace are both knuckleheads. And Mace is an abysmal father. OK then. I don't see why you have to take this so personally, It's just a discussion. And Renly is a fictional character. I do like him a lot I'm just looking at his motives and shit not trying to vilify him. 

Yes he did count on the Dornish support, he mentions it to Catelyn. 

My point here is are those lords from history as powerful as Mace who is Lord Paramount of the Reach, which is about as much power you can get without being king. Also please give me in-universe examples of Lords Paramount marrying their daughters to Kings when the previous heirs are still intact. IRL follows a different set of rules to Westeros. 

How about all the other marriage options which doesn't threaten the crown or her future or have a failure rate of 99.89%? All it would grant them is a short period of royal favour followed by a disastrous falling out. 

Yeah so- they win the war easily with Renly which means Mace is not reckless for declaring for him. 

I just don't see how they would have pulled it off. And Mace is shown as a caring father so it contradicts the text.

And why doesn't Mace just marry Margaery to Joffrey instead of all this elaborate scheming and plotting :? 

(And a late point but even if Joffrey only becomes king when Robert dies, Robert's drinking habits would lead him into the grave sooner or later. The entire thing is very low gain/high risk.) 

[Peach King]

6 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

A quote from when he was 7? Bold start

There's, once again, literally no textual evidence for that 

You won't find it. I literally quoted it in my post:

that at best you've made a mistake and are in a situation that doesn't have any easy solution in a society such as that of the Seven Kingdoms, where divorce simply isn't common.

That's a half truth. We know she wanted them dead before Robert. But either way, she had committed treason four times over. Stannis and Renly have absolutely moral and legal justification to do as they did, even if Renly didn't know why.

I just don't see anything that points to Renly knowing. The story would be much more different if he had known.

GRRM makes mention of it to prove a point. "Knights of summer". "Boys playing at war". The way he doesn't want to strike before dawn because it'll be unchivalrous. How his battle plan is simply sending Loras in a charge against the rising sun. All of it is to strike home that Renly is young and a glory seeker. To say he was just protecting himself is dishonest. 

I am giving you reasons why he might not have told his brothers. You're simply saying - he would have if he knew. OK but why? When has Renly ever been held up as some paragon of human virtue? 

So let's all agree that Renly is really stupid. Divorce only happened like 4 times in the past and it caused trouble a lot of those times. And his plan is simply.... Lyanna look-alike? 

Yeah but Renly moved against her first, so she absolutely deserves to retaliate. 

What would Renly have done differently if he knew though

[Angel Eyes]

25 minutes ago, Peach King said:

 

I am giving you reasons why he might not have told his brothers. You're simply saying - he would have if he knew. OK but why? When has Renly ever been held up as some paragon of human virtue? 

So let's all agree that Renly is really stupid. Divorce only happened like 4 times in the past and it caused trouble a lot of those times. And his plan is simply.... Lyanna look-alike? 

Yeah but Renly moved against her first, so she absolutely deserves to retaliate. 

What would Renly have done differently if he knew though

The show. That’s where he was held up as a paragon of virtue. And the Lyanna lookalike would have fallen apart anyway.