Renly was a dummy

[Hugorfonics]

Just now, Peach King said:

Renly knew about the incest. 

He says he doesn't. He mocks Stannis for the idea of it

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, Peach King said:

Renly knew about the incest. 

Did he? I thought he thought it was just an excuse by Stannis to be king. And Stannis doesn’t help his case by not providing evidence.

[Angel Eyes]

And there I was, thinking that Loras valued his sister.

[Peach King]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

He says he doesn't. He mocks Stannis for the idea of it

 

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Did he? I thought he thought it was just an excuse by Stannis to be king. And Stannis doesn’t help his case by not providing evidence.

Well yeah at the time it would make him look bad to admit he knew about it since it would give Stannis the better claim. If he paints Stannis as the same usurper as he is, it levels the playing field a little. Renly's allll about PR.

I say this because the plan to wed Margaery to Robert would never work without knowledge of the incest. You could just say, well, Renly's just a dumb ass who had no workable plan, but the problem is Mace Tyrell. He's not going to throw his daughter into the den of lions unless he's sure she would be made Queen, and with Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen out of the line of succession. 

I guess this is another reason the Tyrells sided with Renly, since Joffrey was an incest baby.  

[Peach King]

7 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And there I was, thinking that Loras valued his sister.

Littlefinger does say Loras would kill Joffrey if he so much as laid a hand on Margaery. I'd say that's a little too devoted... 

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, Peach King said:

Littlefinger does say Loras would kill Joffrey if he so much as laid a hand on Margaery. I'd say that's a little too devoted... 

Well, I meant valued her enough to not pimp her to Robert Baratheon.

[Hugorfonics]

3 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Well yeah at the time it would make him look bad to admit he knew about it since it would give Stannis the better claim. If he paints Stannis as the same usurper as he is, it levels the playing field a little. Renly's allll about PR.

I say this because the plan to wed Margaery to Robert would never work without knowledge of the incest. You could just say, well, Renly's just a dumb ass who had no workable plan, but the problem is Mace Tyrell. He's not going to throw his daughter into the den of lions unless he's sure she would be made Queen, and with Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen out of the line of succession. 

I guess this is another reason the Tyrells sided with Renly, since Joffrey was an incest baby.  

Robert was unhappy. And Cerseis insane. If Robert truly wanted to replace his queen, well a king can do anything.

Renly may have not been that smart, but compared to Mace, he was

[Peach King]

9 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, I meant valued her enough to not pimp her to Robert Baratheon.

That does reflect pretty bad on Loras... Maybe he thought Margaery really wanted to be queen?   

[Angel Eyes]

5 minutes ago, Peach King said:

That does reflect pretty bad on Loras... Maybe he thought Margaery really  wanted to be queen?   

Varys mentions it in Arya III in AGOT while Arya is listening to him and Illyrio.

[Peach King]

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Robert was unhappy. And Cerseis insane. If Robert truly wanted to replace his queen, well a king can do anything. 

Not unless he wanted a war or to go bankrupt. He's put up with Cersei for over a decade, no way he's going to dump her just for some girl he could just take as another mistress. 

[Angel Eyes]

Marriage is more than just marriage in Westeros, it’s politics. Setting Daena aside for Baelor, which if I recall is the only time a King has set aside a marriage under the Targaryens, is guilt-free because there’s nothing to lose because they’re part of the same family... except this left Baelor without heirs. Having Robert set Cersei aside on the other hand would have financial repercussions, for one, since the Lannisters foot half of the Crown’s bill. 

Plus, of the various mistresses a King has taken (that we know of), none were from a Lord Paramount’s family.

[Hugorfonics]

1 minute ago, Peach King said:

Not unless he wanted a war or to go bankrupt. He's put up with Cersei for over a decade, no way he's going to dump her just for some girl he could just take as another mistress. 

It's not the best plan( like she looks that much like Lyanna? It's crazy and overly romantic), but a mistress and bastards won't be safe under a Queen Cersei.

As for war, Lannister would crumble, and for bankruptcy, take another loan out, Braavos doesn't seem to care

[Angel Eyes]

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's not the best plan( like she looks that much like Lyanna? It's crazy and overly romantic), but a mistress and bastards won't be safe under a Queen Cersei.

As for war, Lannister would crumble, and for bankruptcy, take another loan out, Braavos doesn't seem to care

A Reek can spot a Jeyne Poole at ten paces, what was Renly thinking that Robert would mistake Margaery for Lyanna?

[Peach King]

17 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Varys mentions it in Arya III in AGOT while Arya is listening to him and Illyrio.

Yeah I know, just trying to excuse/make sense of his actions. 

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's not the best plan( like she looks that much like Lyanna? It's crazy and overly romantic), but a mistress and bastards won't be safe under a Queen Cersei.

As for war, Lannister would crumble, and for bankruptcy, take another loan out, Braavos doesn't seem to care

Robert is not that dumb. He's not going to take such a huge risk. Tywin's wrath would be immense and the kingdom would suffer greatly.

You're forgetting that none of this actually benefits Renly or the Tyrells unless Cersei’s children could be disinherited as well, which is only possible if they knew of Cersei x Jaime. 

[Hugorfonics]

19 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

A Reek can spot a Jeyne Poole at ten paces, what was Renly thinking that Robert would mistake Margaery for Lyanna?

Lol I don't think they were trying to make believe she's Lyanna. Just the she reminds her of her.

Did Renly ever meet Lyanna? Or he just heard they were both pretty with darkish hair? I like the part where Renly asks Ned who this picture reminds him of, Neds like idk and Renly sulks off lol. 

9 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Robert is not that dumb. He's not going to take such a huge risk. Tywin's wrath would be immense and the kingdom would suffer greatly.

You're forgetting that none of this actually benefits Renly or the Tyrells unless Cersei’s children could be disinherited as well, which is only possible if they knew of Cersei x Jaime. 

Balon tried to fight Robert's kingdom by himself, didn't go well. Now Tywins no Balon, but still, 1 kingdom vs Westeros =no brainer

It doesn't really help them at all, aside from getting Cersei away from anything murderous. But yea your probably right that he knew. Stannis Jon Arryn Pycelle Petyr and Varys knew. So if 90% of the small council knew, what's the chance Renly didn't. (I wonder what Barri has to say about that(

[Peach King]

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I wonder what Barri has to say about that(

Probably: "D'oh!" 

Does Barri notice anything? 

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Probably: "D'oh!" 

Does Barri notice anything? 

Idk, he's also an idiot. ( Maybe that's harsh. Let's say he's constantly forgetting things which we can chalk to him being an old man who's been wacked in the head more times the Julien Edelman)

He hears Ned say that Joffrey isn't the true king, but doesn't seem to agree. Then again being a kg is different then being on the council, so that may not be the best example

[Tagganaro]

18 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Robert is not that dumb. He's not going to take such a huge risk. Tywin's wrath would be immense and the kingdom would suffer greatly.

You're forgetting that none of this actually benefits Renly or the Tyrells unless Cersei’s children could be disinherited as well, which is only possible if they knew of Cersei x Jaime. 

This is really interesting.  For one thing, I disagree that it would be dumb of Robert to risk Tywin's wrath at this point- assuming Robert wants to put aside Cersei the Lannisters would be extremely isolated and not really have much recourse.  You'd have this Reach-Stormland power bloc with implicit support from the North and the Riverlands who have no cause to love the Lannisters here.  The Lannisters would maybe have to turn to Dorne but even if they did and could gain Dornish support (highly unlikely) they could not take on the Baratheons and Tyrells on their own. 

I think from Renly's perspective he doesn't really care about whether Cersei's children are disinherited.   If we take Renly at his world in ACOK, he never considered the incest.  So his motivation would be purely political, and I think it makes sense from that end- He's always been worried about the Lannisters and wants to secure his place at Court and his brother's rule even further.  Add in that Renly secures having Loras around court as well and that's an added benefit.

But the Tyrells- they'd have to have a plan to remove the Lannister children from the line of succession I would think.

[Peach King]

18 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

This is really interesting.  For one thing, I disagree that it would be dumb of Robert to risk Tywin's wrath at this point- assuming Robert wants to put aside Cersei the Lannisters would be extremely isolated and not really have much recourse.  You'd have this Reach-Stormland power bloc with implicit support from the North and the Riverlands who have no cause to love the Lannisters here.  The Lannisters would maybe have to turn to Dorne but even if they did and could gain Dornish support (highly unlikely) they could not take on the Baratheons and Tyrells on their own. 

I think from Renly's perspective he doesn't really care about whether Cersei's children are disinherited.   If we take Renly at his world in ACOK, he never considered the incest.  So his motivation would be purely political, and I think it makes sense from that end- He's always been worried about the Lannisters and wants to secure his place at Court and his brother's rule even further.  Add in that Renly secures having Loras around court as well and that's an added benefit.

But the Tyrells- they'd have to have a plan to remove the Lannister children from the line of succession I would think.

Yeah, you're right. Still, he would be heavily in debt. 

Now I'm not really saying it's canon that Renly knew about the incest. It's also probable he just wanted Cersei gone, and the Tyrells had something up their sleeve.

(EDIT: Except that I did state it like it was canon, didn't I...) 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Robert is not that dumb. He's not going to take such a huge risk. Tywin's wrath would be immense and the kingdom would suffer greatly.

well yeah, Renly had a plan, that does not mean it was guaranteed to work, It was always something of a long shot. 

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

You're forgetting that none of this actually benefits Renly

it benefits Renly, Cersei hates him and wanted him dead and Renly was aware of this as he warns Ned that if Cersei gains power she will destroy the both of them 

and as an aside if Renly actually knew about the incest this is when he would come clean, he is clearly scared of Cersei gaining power, his silence as well as his later claims of not knowing are clear evidence that he did not know. 

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

 

or the Tyrells unless Cersei’s children could be disinherited as well, which is only possible if they knew of Cersei x Jaime. 

the Tyrells get a queen and royal grandchildren. that is huge. When Henry VIII has a son and two daughters the nobility of England and Europe were still desperate to get him. being the wife, or even paramour of a king, brings a lot of influence. Look at all the lordly father's willing for their daughters to be Aegon IV's mistress.