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Tyrion Counsel to Aegon (Young Griff)


Chris Mormont

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Reading Dance again and noticed something.  Aboard the Shy Maid, Tyrion advises Aegon to go to Westeros instead of seeking out Dany in Meereen.  Tyrion is then taken by Jorah, but when he learns that Aegon was following his advice, he seemed very surprised.  I thought it was a better plan than going to Meereen, where so much could have gone wrong.  But Tyrion's reaction made me wonder if he is shocked that they listened to his wise advice or shocked they fell for some plot he was trying to hatch, even if it was to cause discord between Griff and Young Griff.

Any thoughts?

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There's not too much to flesh out.  Tyrion knows that Dragons are a cheat code.  Traditional warfare, armies and castles, terrain and supplies, go right out the window when someone attacks you with a flying Abrams tank.  Even Tyrion's play during the actual game of cyvasse, is a lesson to fAegon about staying close to the dragons.  Tyrion is amused by fAegon and JonCon's turn west.  fAegon is young and foolish, JonCon is desperately working against the clock due to his Greyscale. 

Tyrion had two motivations for advising fAegon such:

1.  Tyrion obviously wanted to remove fAegon as a suitor, companion, or ally with Dany before Tyrion actually reached Slaver's Bay.

2.  Tyrion was in a dark, angry, and ultimately petty place.  He tricked fAegon into heading west for the joy of having another army attack Cersei.  Basically tricked the boy (who Tyrion knows is a good lad) into committing suicide so Tyrion could annoy his sister.  Childish, at best.

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2 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

Tyrion was in a dark, angry, and ultimately petty place.  He tricked fAegon into heading west for the joy of having another army attack Cersei.  Basically tricked the boy (who Tyrion knows is a good lad) into committing suicide so Tyrion could annoy his sister.  Childish, at best.

I would go with this. Tyrion doesn't have anything against Aegon beign suitor or ally to Daenerys

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No it isn't sincere advice.

He's in a destructive mood. He's impatient to get to hurting Cersei. It is a bit of a fuck you to JC who he sees as a bit of a Tywin. He's throwing a bit of a wedge between Aegon and JC and worming his own way in there. He's carving out a place for himself, raising himself from the petty dragon adviser he would remain if their current plan goes ahead.

But JC gets greyscale and so rather than fighting against Aegon when he regurgitates Tyrion's impatient flawed plan, he jumps aboard. Only the impatient flawed plan will prove successful, and Aegon will win the IT and be ever grateful to Tyrion for his advice. This should be the important take away from that scene and Tyrion's whole time with the Aegon crew, Tyrion will be friendly to both Aegon's and Dany's camps before the Dance. They will each be trying to court him to their side.

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The real issue with this plan is that makes no sense whatsoever at the point George has put that scene in the end.

If it had been a suggestion Tyrion had made at the meeting with the Golden Company (or at evening thereafter, when Aegon and Tyrion happened to have a chance to talk to each other) it would have made some sense.

But on the Rhoyne they were still operating under the assumption that Daenerys was on her way to them. They were only going to Volantis where they would meet Daenerys and then they would go west together. Tyrion's entire speech about going west instead of east makes no sense at this point, and neither does the choice between going to Daenerys like a beggar or to Westeros directly.

To make the scene work, George should have included a scene prior to the Aegon-Tyrion conversation where the gang on the ship had learned that Daenerys Targaryen was not, in fact, coming west and instead remained at Meereen. But they learn that only much later. By the time they have the conversation Aegon should have ridiculed Tyrion for his trite and nonsensical scenario because nobody was planning to visit Daenerys Targaryen in Meereen.

People (apparently the author, too) usually miss that because we have known for a long time that Dany settled down in Meereen.

Within the framework of the story the advice is not sound advice at the point Tyrion makes it. But it becomes sound advice when Aegon decides to follow it. Going to Dany would mean a long delay with an uncertain welcome/end and the their enemies back in Westeros most certainly would have regrouped by the time they got to Westeros. In fact, with the things happening that Tyrion didn't know when he was giving his advice Westeros is even much riper for conquest than Tyrion actually imagined, meaning that Aegon is likely to have much more success much faster than anybody could have imagined.

Tyrion's intention likely was to get Aegon to go to Westeros as soon as possible and cause havoc by attacking Cersei and her allies now while they are weak so as to hurt his sister and his brother. At the same time it would have also ruined Varys/Illyrio's grand plans for Aegon and ensured his eventual demise - something Tyrion would have relished at at this point because Varys/Illyrio was treating him as their little pawn. We know he understands that to crown Myrcella means to kill her, and he clearly should know/assume that to crown a dragonless Aegon might also have the potential to kill him. It most certainly would if he isn't a real Targaryen and his aunt doesn't exactly come to save him but rather to put him down as a usurper and impostor.

Now, Tyrion himself had no plans to get to Daenerys without Aegon or any of that crap. He is still rightfully afraid of the dragon queen considering who and what he is. He would have gone to Westeros with Aegon - or he would have died in Volantis at the hands of Jon Connington when he had outlived his usefulness knowing that he had planted a seed that might ruin their careful little scheme. If he had lived he may have thought to relish in Aegon's victory over Cersei - or who knows? Perhaps he would have rediscovered his Lannister allegiance and would have ended up betraying Aegon. We cannot really know.

Tyrion wasn't making a lot of sense in this self-destructive mood he was in until he finally realized that he did not want to die.

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6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I wonder If team (f)Aegon had followed through with their original plan when they would have arrived in Meereen? Before Quentyn? Before Dany married? Before she went missing on Drogon? 

That would have depended on how many men would have gone to Meereen. If they had taken a fleet and moved the entire Golden Company to Slaver's Bay they would likely have arrived too late. Quentyn left much earlier and he, too, came nearly too late.

Aegon and the Golden Company could have seized all of Meereen in Dany's absence, crushing her enemies, and making Aegon a dragonrider. What they would have done then is rather intriguing - would they have just left for Westeros, or would they have tried to find her?

10 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

But JC gets greyscale and so rather than fighting against Aegon when he regurgitates Tyrion's impatient flawed plan, he jumps aboard.

The greyscale thing is indeed the crucial element there. Without that, Connington wouldn't have tolerated any rash actions, insisting they secure Dany and the dragons first. And since Strickland was of the same mind that would have been what they would have done.

But now it is more important for Connington to see Aegon on the Iron Throne than to ensure the boy will remain there forever. He is not going to be around for much longer, and he lives for revenge, not for building a new peaceful world. He might long be dead by the time Dany and Aegon rip each other to pieces.

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Apart from Tyrion being Tyrion, it was a thorough lesson in distrust. Not only does he tell Aegon to his face. He makes a demonstration as well. It is also a lesson about assumptions. What he says about Dany being suspicious of Aegon is something to at least being considered.

I don't believe that Tyrion actually wanted to turn their course. After all the Golden Company is simply not enough and Dany was Aegon's best chance at legitimacy. I think he was auditioning for becoming Aegon's proverbial little devil on the shoulder, gaining some influence and trying to make things so that he was a councilor of an independent party rather than an offering to Dany.

Half of his strategy worked. The Aegon has chosen a path independent of Dany. 

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17 hours ago, Chris Mormont said:

Reading Dance again and noticed something.  Aboard the Shy Maid, Tyrion advises Aegon to go to Westeros instead of seeking out Dany in Meereen.  Tyrion is then taken by Jorah, but when he learns that Aegon was following his advice, he seemed very surprised.  I thought it was a better plan than going to Meereen, where so much could have gone wrong.  But Tyrion's reaction made me wonder if he is shocked that they listened to his wise advice or shocked they fell for some plot he was trying to hatch, even if it was to cause discord between Griff and Young Griff.

Any thoughts?

So much more could go wrong going to Westeros directly.  Aegon can never prove who he is.  His credentials will be questioned.  He doesn't have enough men to fight the Lannisters.  Because, unlike on that other work, the Lannisters are still powerful.

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21 hours ago, Chris Mormont said:

Reading Dance again and noticed something.  Aboard the Shy Maid, Tyrion advises Aegon to go to Westeros instead of seeking out Dany in Meereen.  Tyrion is then taken by Jorah, but when he learns that Aegon was following his advice, he seemed very surprised.  I thought it was a better plan than going to Meereen, where so much could have gone wrong.  But Tyrion's reaction made me wonder if he is shocked that they listened to his wise advice or shocked they fell for some plot he was trying to hatch, even if it was to cause discord between Griff and Young Griff.

Any thoughts?

Tyrion wanted to use Aegon to strike at Cersei. I think he was surprised that Aegon and Jon Connington followed the riskier plan suggested by Tyrion. 

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4 hours ago, Princess Daenerys said:

So much more could go wrong going to Westeros directly.  Aegon can never prove who he is.  His credentials will be questioned.  He doesn't have enough men to fight the Lannisters.  Because, unlike on that other work, the Lannisters are still powerful.

Not really, they dismissed all their soldiers. Portrayed as faaaar more powerful than reality on the other work

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

To make the scene work, George should have included a scene prior to the Aegon-Tyrion conversation where the gang on the ship had learned that Daenerys Targaryen was not, in fact, coming west and instead remained at Meereen. But they learn that only much later.

Actually, Haldon and Tyrion leave the Shy Maid that evening after Tyrion suggests the idea to Aegon to confirm that Dany was still in Meereen.  They had already heard the rumors

 

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1 minute ago, Chris Mormont said:

Actually, Haldon and Tyrion leave the Shy Maid that evening after Tyrion suggests the idea to Aegon to confirm that Dany was still in Meereen.  They had already heard the rumors

They only hear the rumors after the guys who left return, and Tyrion and Aegon talk before that. Prior to that they only heard rumors about 'war', not that Dany remained in Meereen.

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6 hours ago, Princess Daenerys said:

So much more could go wrong going to Westeros directly. 

One of the biggest problems they had was transportation.  It proved much easier to go to Westeros than Meereen.  They would have had a lot of trouble finding ships to get the entire Golden Company to Meereen.

 

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1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I think people have touched on this but not really highlighted the point, that Tyrion had every reason to suspect he would be killed by Danaerys.  If he did believe that, the advice makes sense in terms of self preservation.

I disagree. He has one helluva calling card in being Lord Tywin's murderer. And by then, surely Turion could expect Jon Connington to vouch for him. 

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43 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

What I was surprised by, was that everyone just blindly followed Aegon when he decided to head west. Not JonCon nor anyone else tried to convince him to stick with the original plan and go to Dany.

That can be used to support the Blackfyre theory. 

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