Decline in gravitas among major characters as series progresses

[Free Northman Reborn]

Does anyone else feel that the loss of major characters of significant stature, presence and gravitas has weakened the series as it approaches its latter stages? Personally, I find the vacuum left by characters such as Tywin Lannister, Eddard Stark, Robert Baratheon, Oberyn Martell, Jon Arryn, Rickard Karstark, and other influential characters remains unfilled.

As more experienced characters are killed off, the series feels increasingly cheapened as teenagers become the focal point of the plot. As much as I like Jon, Arya, Bran etc, I would find the series much more gripping and, call it the dreaded word "realistic", if you had characters of Eddard, Benjen, Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister's gravitas and experience leading the varioius factions, rather than the Jon's and Dany's of this world.

We have become used to it since we have known these youngsters since they were 13 years old or younger, in some cases, but that doesn't mean that it is as convincing as older characters would have been in these roles.

I mean, it will do, and we will enjoy it as it plays out. But I think it would have been a better story with adults in these roles, and not even young adults in their twenties, but experienced men in their thirties and up making all these world shaping decisions.

[Valyrian Lance]

28 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Does anyone else feel that the loss of major characters of significant stature, presence and gravitas has weakened the series as it approaches its latter stages? Personally, I find the vacuum left by characters such as Tywin Lannister, Eddard Stark, Robert Baratheon, Oberyn Martell, Jon Arryn, Rickard Karstark, and other influential characters remains unfilled.

As more experienced characters are killed off, the series feels increasingly cheapened as teenagers become the focal point of the plot. As much as I like Jon, Arya, Bran etc, I would find the series much more gripping and, call it the dreaded word "realistic", if you had characters of Eddard, Benjen, Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister's gravitas and experience leading the varioius factions, rather than the Jon's and Dany's of this world.

We have become used to it since we have known these youngsters since they were 13 years old or younger, in some cases, but that doesn't mean that it is as convincing as older characters would have been in these roles.

I mean, it will do, and we will enjoy it as it plays out. But I think it would have been a better story with adults in these roles, and not even young adults in their twenties, but experienced men in their thirties and up making all these world shaping decisions.

I hear what you are saying, but I think one of the main points of the series is the evolution that a new breed/generation of leaders can bring to Westeros. We will obviously have to wait until the end of the series to know how that evolution plays out, but it is pretty much guaranteed that the world will not look like it did at the beginning of the series.

 

Whether it is more compelling to see old men change or new men and women do new things is in the eye of the beholder.

[Leonardo]

Of course. But the series is making moves to replace them; Jaime, JonCon, Wyman, Roose, Blackfish, Willas Tyrell, Doran, Euron... I like highlighting some of the badass Westermen as well, like Addam Marbrand. 

 

There are still a lot of badasses strolling around. Let us not forget Walder Frey or Stannis Baratheon, who is poised to get a lot more done than Robert did with a lot less. All of these people were young men in the company of betters at one point, we're seeing a change of the guard. The pace of the fault of writing, and the more and more I favored the time skip.

[Cas Stark]

Yes.  It isn't so much for me that the younger characters are the focus, but that the supporting cast of new characters...Euron, Arienne, Doran, JonCon, Snakes, Damphair,  aren't as compelling or 'deep' as the originals.

[Leonardo]

Also I don't see how Jon Arryn makes the list, or Karstark...

[Lord Varys]

I see the issue in principle, but I rather criticize the fact that there are very few characters of advanced in the series at all, especially no women.

Most of the characters @Free Northman Reborn mentioned don't really have gravitas of that type. Ned and Robert are in their early thirties when they die, just shy of middle age. They don't have the gravitas that comes with age, and in setting where people only come of age at 18 (or 21) and not 16 they would be even younger.

Even a man like Tywin is just in his fifties.

And citing the likes of Jon Arryn (whom we never met and don't know much about) Rickard Karstark or Oberyn Martell doesn't make a lot of sense, either. Those are all secondary or tertiary characters.

In part, the reason for this obviously is that this is a harsh world and people don't get that old, but at times it is too damned convenient that families are as small as they are.

The plan was to have the main characters age as the story progresses, but that never worked, creating a setting that isn't all that realistic (especially if you take Arya's story as an example).

[JaneSnow]

To be fair, life expectancy in that time isn't very high so you have to grow up pretty fast. I mean, Barristen Selmy is considered old and he's only sixty(no spring chicken, but by no means elderly) so not a lot of characters would be what he'd consider old

[Lollygag]

I’ve noticed the same things as the OP and I extend the criticism to the show as well as the younger actors just don’t draw like the more experienced actors did.

While I’m a Stark fan and root for them despite some of my gut inclinations about the Starks, I have to admit that I look forward to the richer, more adult characters like the Lannisters, Barristan and Stannis than I do to the children and teenagers.

When one looks at the remaining characters, they are bastardized or rejected by Westeros’ system to a significant extent. They will not be maintaining or restoring any status quo/restoring past traditions upon their rise to power. For Westeros to change, the story needs characters who see advantage in that change, who will reject traditions which rejected or failed them. Those who benefited from the traditional ways would only put it back the way it was, and the fact that they are dead more often than not tells me a great deal about where the story is headed.

[Bael's Bastard]

We've definitely lost some great characters over the span of the novels, and perhaps the story might have been better if some of them had stuck around longer. But I think the turnover is consistent with the world GRRM has created. Eddard, Robert, Oberyn, Catelyn, and Benjen were in similar positions to where some of our young main characters are now before, during, and after Robert's Rebellion, while their "elders" or other notable characters were killed or died off.

Lord Steffon Baratheon
Lady Cassana Estermont
Lord Rickard Stark
Brandon Stark
Lyanna Stark
Elbert Arryn
Denys Arryn
King Aerys II Targaryen
Queen Rhaella Targaryen
Prince Rhaegar Targaryen
Prince Aegon Targaryen
Princess Rhaenys Targaryen
Martell Princess of Dorne
Elia Martell
Ashara Dayne
Lewyn Martell
Arthur Dayne
Oswell Whent
Lord Commander Gerold Hightower
Jonothor Darry
 

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As more experienced characters are killed off, the series feels increasingly cheapened as teenagers become the focal point of the plot. As much as I like Jon, Arya, Bran etc, I would find the series much more gripping and, call it the dreaded word "realistic", if you had characters of Eddard, Benjen, Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister's gravitas and experience leading the varioius factions, rather than the Jon's and Dany's of this world.

It's probably deliberate. Some books immerse you in an alien world, but GRRM seemingly wants you to keep your head above water, so as best to see the plots and the arcs and the literary games and so on.

I'd guess the game here is inversions: we've got wise fools, heroic cravens and dangerous, powerful children (not just Dany, but SR, and the little birds, and the children of the forest). We've got a war of opposites: fire against ice; day against night; maybe also young against old. Ice preserves, so it's possible the Others are very, very old.

[Lollygag]

Adding, it doesn't hold for me that older characters are being killed off for the sole reason of it being realistic to the setting. There’s no shortage of plot armor in the series (not really complaining, some degree of plot armor is needed sometimes IMHO as long as it’s handled well). It doesn’t make sense to kill off older characters just because it’s realistic in a brutal society and yet have little kids survive tremendous obstacles over and over in the same brutal society. I'm left to believe that who lives and who dies is dictated more by narrative requirements.

 

[The hairy bear]

The abandonment of the five-year gap may have some of the blame of this. We were supposed to start the fourth book of the series not only with all the characters five year older (Jon and Dany in their early twenties, Jaime and Cersei in their early forties), but all of them already well established in the new positions that they earned at the end of book 3.

So we were supposed to start with already a five-year experience for Jon as Lord Commander, Dany as queen of Mereen, Cersei as regent, etc. That should have brought a lot of "gravitas" to the table. But scrapping the original plan forced George to fill the following books with scenes were the protagonists were unexperienced, insecure, questioned by everyone, and in learning stages. That is, as gravitas-less as you can get.

[Cas Stark]

I don't see it so much as the age of characters, but the depth of characterization is lacking. So to me the young characters we've had since book 1 have plenty of gravitas, its the new characters that feel less well rounded and interesting.

But, I agree, the scrapping of the 5 year gap created multiple problems, possibly creating more problems by abandoning it.  imo

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Does anyone else feel that the loss of major characters of significant stature, presence and gravitas has weakened the series as it approaches its latter stages? Personally, I find the vacuum left by characters such as Tywin Lannister, Eddard Stark, Robert Baratheon, Oberyn Martell, Jon Arryn, Rickard Karstark, and other influential characters remains unfilled.

As more experienced characters are killed off, the series feels increasingly cheapened as teenagers become the focal point of the plot. As much as I like Jon, Arya, Bran etc, I would find the series much more gripping and, call it the dreaded word "realistic", if you had characters of Eddard, Benjen, Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister's gravitas and experience leading the varioius factions, rather than the Jon's and Dany's of this world.

We have become used to it since we have known these youngsters since they were 13 years old or younger, in some cases, but that doesn't mean that it is as convincing as older characters would have been in these roles.

I mean, it will do, and we will enjoy it as it plays out. But I think it would have been a better story with adults in these roles, and not even young adults in their twenties, but experienced men in their thirties and up making all these world shaping decisions.

So Gabaldon asked Martin how things were going with “the newest book.” Quoth Martin, via Gabaldon:

GRRM: I’m having all kinds of trouble. Have you ever killed somebody off that you later realized that you needed?…I just painted myself into a corner. (video below, but sorry that it is from Reddit as I cannot find the original video a friend showed me.)

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/8rumol/spoiler_main_diana_gabaldon_author_of_outlander/?ref=share&ref_source=embed&utm_content=title&utm_medium=post_embed&utm_name=3a707b6f287643779b7935d988e37fa0&utm_source=embedly&utm_term=8rumol

 

[Cas Stark]

32 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So Gabaldon asked Martin how things were going with “the newest book.” Quoth Martin, via Gabaldon:

GRRM: I’m having all kinds of trouble. Have you ever killed somebody off that you later realized that you needed?…I just painted myself into a corner. (video below, but sorry that it is from Reddit as I cannot find the original video a friend showed me.)

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/8rumol/spoiler_main_diana_gabaldon_author_of_outlander/?ref=share&ref_source=embed&utm_content=title&utm_medium=post_embed&utm_name=3a707b6f287643779b7935d988e37fa0&utm_source=embedly&utm_term=8rumol

 

Not very encouraging, is it?  I'd love to know who he was talking about there.....

[Megorova]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Most of the characters @Free Northman Reborn mentioned don't really have gravitas of that type. Ned and Robert are in their early thirties when they die, just shy of middle age. They don't have the gravitas that comes with age, and in setting where people only come of age at 18 (or 21) and not 16 they would be even younger.

Even a man like Tywin is just in his fifties.

Ned and Robert died aged 36.

Previously, in Medieval Ages, average life expectancy was much lower than now (frequent wars and minor battles; many uncurable diseases; high mortality rate of females, that died in childbirth; famine; natural disasters, from which people were nearly entirely unprotected; absence or ineffectiveness of law enforcement agencies, people were frequently robbed or killed by various bands of outlaws; etc.), so at those times people were maturing much faster than now. Also people, that have potential to become someone great, usually manage to realise that potential, in their youth.

Just look at Ned and Tywin - their greatest achievents were, for Ned at age 19-20 (during Robert's Rebellion), and for Tywin at age 18 (during War of Ninepenny Kings), and 19 (during his conflict with House Reyne of Castamere). I'm not saying, that for the rest of their lifes, they were doing nothing, and were just waiting for their death, only that, in that world people realise their potential, while they are still very young (compared to our world).

Also fantasy fiction are mostly written for teenagers and young adults, so main characters in it are also mostly kids, teens and characters in their early 20s.

[Free Northman Reborn]

 I imagine reading about WW2 and instead of Churchill, Rommell, Von Manstein, Rooseveldt, Stalin, Patton, etc, we have their children running around as the key roleplayers. Would be weird.

Then again, Martin is not alone in this approach, fantasy traditionally has a younger audience. Just look at Rand al Thor and his merry band of heroes and heroines. All barely twenty during the series.

But one would have thought a series like this one might break with this tradition. It’s not like Tolkien even adhered to it. His main characters were mostly mature individuals.

Anyway, I sometimes find myself longing for characters we never even met, but just read about in flashbacks, like Rickard Stark, Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, (yes, and Jon Arryn) just to make this feel less like a battle of the leftover second rate leaders, after all the giants of the era have been killed off.

[Nevets]

I happen to be a sucker for coming of age stories, so the youth of the main characters isn't a problem for me.  Just the opposite, in fact.   Although I will admit that the abandonment of the 5-year gap has caused problems by making the main characters younger than they really should be.  

As for gravitas, we have Jaime, Cersei, Littlefinger, and Stannis in prominent roles,  And in the North, it looks likely that Melisandre and Davos will come into their own and stop being mainly appendages of Stannis.

And let's face it, characters like Eddard, Catelyn, and Robert had to go.  Eddard and Catelyn so their kids would be on their own, and Robert to set the chaos in motion.

[Back in Black-Snow]

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So Gabaldon asked Martin how things were going with “the newest book.” Quoth Martin, via Gabaldon:

GRRM: I’m having all kinds of trouble. Have you ever killed somebody off that you later realized that you needed?…I just painted myself into a corner. (video below, but sorry that it is from Reddit as I cannot find the original video a friend showed me.)

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/8rumol/spoiler_main_diana_gabaldon_author_of_outlander/?ref=share&ref_source=embed&utm_content=title&utm_medium=post_embed&utm_name=3a707b6f287643779b7935d988e37fa0&utm_source=embedly&utm_term=8rumol

 

Probably Need Stark.

[Nevets]

I forgot to mention Tyrion Lannister and Barristan as characters with gravitas.

And Euron Greyjoy, Willas and Garlan Tyrell, Yohn Royce, the Blackfish, Roose Bolton, Howland Reed, and Greatjon Umber could all play important roles in future books.  Any of them would bring gravitas to the proceedings.