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Decline in gravitas among major characters as series progresses


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35 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I forgot to mention Tyrion Lannister and Barristan as characters with gravitas.

And Euron Greyjoy, Willas and Garlan Tyrell, Yohn Royce, the Blackfish, Roose Bolton, Howland Reed, and Greatjon Umber could all play important roles in future books.  Any of them would bring gravitas to the proceedings. 

Barristan the Bold is among the most storied and famous people in Westeros. I can't think of anyone with equal gravitas to him outside of Tywin and Robert who we see in the series, and I think his name may pop up the most of all for the commonfolk

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11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So Gabaldon asked Martin how things were going with “the newest book.” Quoth Martin, via Gabaldon:

GRRM: I’m having all kinds of trouble. Have you ever killed somebody off that you later realized that you needed?…I just painted myself into a corner. (video below, but sorry that it is from Reddit as I cannot find the original video a friend showed me.)

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/8rumol/spoiler_main_diana_gabaldon_author_of_outlander/?ref=share&ref_source=embed&utm_content=title&utm_medium=post_embed&utm_name=3a707b6f287643779b7935d988e37fa0&utm_source=embedly&utm_term=8rumol

 

I think that is probably Kevan. He is the only character who can speak for the Lannisters with any authority in King's Landing. Martin probably needs someone to hold the Tyrell-Lannister alliance from falling apart immediately.

I can't think of any other characters who an irreplaceable role in the plot, major characters apart. 

I believe the one character that has the potential to play this part is Margaery, that is keep things together in King's Landing for a while longer. 

Eta the other that is possibly irreplaceable is maester Aemon. There are various aspects of the plot and particularly threads that have been previously unconnected that only he could bring together. 

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This topic seems to have veered off its original premise, into which remaining characters have the most gravitas to which character does Martin regret killing off.

To get closer to the original topic: I think that a story of middle-age characters having to, in a crisis, confront the unspoken and unconscious truisms that they lived their lives by and take (or not) the steps to rearrange themselves and their society would make for a very good story.

I also think that a story of young characters who are warped and mistreated by a society's unspoken and unconscious truisms and the steps they take (or not) to change their society would make for a very good story.

The second story seems to be the one Martin is telling. I would like to have read either one of these stories. I'm beginning to not give a shit about them any more, though.

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This is partly a coming of age story and the old guard, the ones who made a mess of things, are killed off to make way for the youngsters.  Of the names you mentioned, only Tywin Lannister didn't make a mess of things.  

So anyway, the story is expanding beyond Westeros and beyond the threat of the Others.  I see this as a positive development to the story.   The story shifts to the east as major characters make their way to meet the Dragon Queen.  

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Most of the characters with real gravitas needed to go to make the story he is telling work.

Eddard and Catelyn so that their children would be on their own, and forced to rely on their own resources.

Robert so the resulting power vacuum would set the story in motion.

Khal Drogo so that Daenerys could take over the remnants of his khalasar and start her path toward being a ruler.

Jeor Mormont so that Jon Snow could take over the Night's Watch.

Tywin Lannister so that there wouldn't be a competent ruler to run things during peacetime.

However, we still have the Lannisters (Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei), Barristan, Littlefinger, and Stannis, Melisandre, and Davos, all of whom add some gravitas to the story,  Plus a sizable group in the wings who could potentially do so.

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I get what OP is saying and I definitely notice a diffrent 'feel' to the series in the later books. For me, though, it's not really about the gravitas of the characters, but the fact that the plot used to be more concetrated while now plot threads are more diluted, slow-paced, and bigger in number. Just compare the plot of books 1-3 to the plot(s) on Feast and Dance (which, true, haven't been resolved yet). The age of the characters is also a factor, I agree.

edit: Oh, and adding a bit to this, there's also a sort of...disconnect between plots. Like in Dance when you read a Jon Snow chapter, and then read an Arya chapter, and then a Dany chapter.....it's like 3 different books at times. I mean by book 5 of a 7-book series you'd think characters would already be aware of each other and working together to defeat the Evil (which, by the way in book 5 is still just as inscrutable and unkowable as book 1, including the fact folks in King's Landing barely know about it).

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On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 10:32 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Does anyone else feel that the loss of major characters of significant stature, presence and gravitas has weakened the series as it approaches its latter stages? Personally, I find the vacuum left by characters such as Tywin Lannister, Eddard Stark, Robert Baratheon, Oberyn Martell, Jon Arryn, Rickard Karstark, and other influential characters remains unfilled.

As more experienced characters are killed off, the series feels increasingly cheapened as teenagers become the focal point of the plot. As much as I like Jon, Arya, Bran etc, I would find the series much more gripping and, call it the dreaded word "realistic", if you had characters of Eddard, Benjen, Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister's gravitas and experience leading the varioius factions, rather than the Jon's and Dany's of this world.

We have become used to it since we have known these youngsters since they were 13 years old or younger, in some cases, but that doesn't mean that it is as convincing as older characters would have been in these roles.

I mean, it will do, and we will enjoy it as it plays out. But I think it would have been a better story with adults in these roles, and not even young adults in their twenties, but experienced men in their thirties and up making all these world shaping decisions.

But that's the point.

When people who are exceptionally gifted or well-seasoned die in real life, they die. As in, what they brought to the table can no longer be brought to the table. That's part of the reason why the deaths of people like Michael Jackson, Albert Einstein or Sara Josephine Baker are so devastating. Humanity permanently loses things that are difficult - if not outright impossible - to replace.

And so the living have to just get their bearings, pick up the pieces, continue the work/carry on the legacy of the dead.

That's just the way it is.

I applaud GRRM for keeping it 100.

Besides, whether you like it or not (I don't much like how cliché and tropey it has become but...), children, teenagers and especially young adults ARE the future. Everything - absolutely everything - depends on their instruction, cultivation and protection.

To their credit, kids and young adults (this applies to me too) are a lot more flexible than the older adults and the elderly are also unlikely to be put in the positions where miscalculations, shortcomings and randomness get them and everyone else associated to them killed--or worse. They also don't have the responsibilities and the privileges of power and experience that tend to bog down the adults. More often than not, they can just get up and go.

So, it makes sense why they would last longer.

But yeah, the young characters (particularly Sansa, Arya and Bran) are way too young for their storylines.

What Martin should have done is:

  • turn the 5 year gap into 1-2 year gap
  • make Feast about the adult characters (including Theon, Asha, Arianne and maybe Sam)
  • reincorporate Daenerys, Jon, Sansa, Bran, Arya and Sam (if he didn't appear in Feast) back into the narrative with Dance which would pick up where Feast left off place 1-2 years later
  • do what the show did and have everyone under the age of 17 start off 3 years older (Sansa-11 to 14, Bran-7 to 10, etc.)
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This topic kind of sounds to me like the clichéd lamentations about the good old days. Like stories of how my grandfather fed his family by grounding rock into gravel with his bare hands. 

There issues with the gravitas of the characters mentioned. Robert had more girth than gravitas by the time we got to know him, Ned was at heart a family man, Jon Arryn's gravitas owed a lot to his absence and Tywin's was pure artifice. The point is that gravitas is a matter of perception and as such no-one's survives close scrutiny intact. They were also never protagonists, with the exception of Ned, but rather generated situations for the protagonists to deal with. Neither were they the main agents of the plot. 

In contrast, there is an influx of many more characters with both experience and agency like Jon Conington, the High Sparrow and Euron. I won't speak to their gravitas as that is relative. 

More importantly I think is that as established leaders of their factions they had to go. The theme of the series is deconstruction and the following destruction. And that includes the factions that the aforementioned led. The protagonists are individuals whose life was defined by what these older characters represented and has been upended as a result. They still have their legacy to contend with. That has been the bulk of the series so far. 

So keeping them alive would make for a very different series. 

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I just see GRRM telling a coming of age story in many ways.  Certain characters need to die so there are roles that our main protagonists can step into.  Additionally, GRRM in many ways seems to be telling the downfall of the Westerosi system, as this War of 5 Kings and ensuing chaos has left the realm completely shattered and unprepared for the real shit that's about to go down with the White Walkers.  With those two things in mind, key characters with "gravitas" that were a major part of holding the "old world" together must die so the new world can be built.  

Plus, to be fair, there are still a ton of older characters hanging around playing key roles or about to play key roles.  Jon Connington, Euron, Doran Martell, Marwyn, Roose, Stannis, many of the Northern lords, Randyll Tarly, Mace Tyrell, etc.  

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Also worth pointing out that the age of the characters isn't crazy.  People don't live to crazy old ages in these kinds of settings.  Throughout history, it's often young people in their late teens or early twenties who do great things (not only, but it isn't unheard of).  Alexander the Great was only 20 or 21 when he started on his campaigns.

And what, exactly, is presence supposed to mean?  Jon Arryn wasn't alive at any part in the narrative, so how does losing him cost the story something?  Rickard Karstark was at best a tertiary characer.  Characters like Robert Baratheon were childlike to begin with.  Ned is only in his early to mid thirties.  I think we see some of these characters as being older than they really are, especially in the context of the show, which (perhaps intelligently) adds about 5 years on to everyone's age, across the cast.

And sometimes the whole point is to have a less experienced character in place.  Tywin dies and Cersei takes his place, but Cersei doesn't have the experience or temperament to rule as he did.  That's part of the point (along with the fact that Tywin's view of rule by fear will lead to the corruption and destruction of everything he held dear, while Ned's view of a feudal relationship based on trust and personal interaction survives his death).

The OPs point seems to be that a measure of realism is lost because a random handful of characters have died, and it's absurd.  The novels wouldn't function without that; the whole metaphysical point being made is that we're about to see a new generation of leaders in Westeros who aren't saddled with the baggage of their parents' generation, who have learned the best and discarded the rest, and will create a better tomorrow.  It's going to be Daenerys rejecting the heritage of the Mad King and embracing the "Mhysa" part of her persona, or Tyrion rejecting the means and methods and attitudes of Tywin and the trauma inflicted on him to save the world, or Jon's love for his family triumphing over the bitterness of his bastardy and his assassination by his Sworn Brothers.  You can't have those characters rise to in-universe prominence without having the people they're replacing go away, and it's not outrageous that in the pseudo-Medieval world many people, including the well-off, don't live past their forties or fifties

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What you're describing is leadership, something that the killed off characters all had. Their deaths not only affect the story and help push it forward but they also show how the realm is descending into chaos without proper leadership. Clearly the younger generation of potential "leaders" are not ready to step into their shoes. This will obviously lead into more civil war and finally the fantasy endgame that has only been talked about but not written.

Personally, as someone who is only interested in the story itself, the plot in the later books has become really stagnant and that has little to do with the loss of so many strong characters. It feels as though GRRM is trying too hard to prove himself by expanding on aspects that hinder the story rather than aid it which is causing more problems in the long run. But of course, this forum is filled with book purists who worship the very ground GRRM stumbles on and so any sort of negativity towards the books falls on deaf ears.

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On 6/21/2018 at 10:32 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Does anyone else feel that the loss of major characters of significant stature, presence and gravitas has weakened the series as it approaches its latter stages? Personally, I find the vacuum left by characters such as Tywin Lannister, Eddard Stark, Robert Baratheon, Oberyn Martell, Jon Arryn, Rickard Karstark, and other influential characters remains unfilled.

As more experienced characters are killed off, the series feels increasingly cheapened as teenagers become the focal point of the plot. As much as I like Jon, Arya, Bran etc, I would find the series much more gripping and, call it the dreaded word "realistic", if you had characters of Eddard, Benjen, Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister's gravitas and experience leading the varioius factions, rather than the Jon's and Dany's of this world.

We have become used to it since we have known these youngsters since they were 13 years old or younger, in some cases, but that doesn't mean that it is as convincing as older characters would have been in these roles.

I mean, it will do, and we will enjoy it as it plays out. But I think it would have been a better story with adults in these roles, and not even young adults in their twenties, but experienced men in their thirties and up making all these world shaping decisions.

I have to disagree because those you listed as having gravitas inherited their power.  The young ones are having to fight, scheme, and climb themselves to power.  The young girl who walked into a burning fire and came out with dragons has a lot of gravitas.  She has more gravitas among her freed people than Robert Baratheon ever had on his best day.

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On 6/21/2018 at 4:32 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Does anyone else feel that the loss of major characters of significant stature, presence and gravitas has weakened the series as it approaches its latter stages? Personally, I find the vacuum left by characters such as Tywin Lannister, Eddard Stark, Robert Baratheon, Oberyn Martell, Jon Arryn, Rickard Karstark, and other influential characters remains unfilled.

As more experienced characters are killed off, the series feels increasingly cheapened as teenagers become the focal point of the plot. As much as I like Jon, Arya, Bran etc, I would find the series much more gripping and, call it the dreaded word "realistic", if you had characters of Eddard, Benjen, Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister's gravitas and experience leading the varioius factions, rather than the Jon's and Dany's of this world.

We have become used to it since we have known these youngsters since they were 13 years old or younger, in some cases, but that doesn't mean that it is as convincing as older characters would have been in these roles.

I mean, it will do, and we will enjoy it as it plays out. But I think it would have been a better story with adults in these roles, and not even young adults in their twenties, but experienced men in their thirties and up making all these world shaping decisions.

Well, we all know who the heroes of this story were always meant to be. It is after all cross generational saga.

I feel that as the series progresses, that emptiness will be filled with the main 6 growing into those roles. Between Dance of Dragons 2.0, Northern conundrum and War for Dawn 2.0, I do expect the main characters will become as influential and gain presence and stature as the generation before them had.

I am not sure that for Martin's story it would be better. You can't have adult men at the end of their lives changing and reshaping the world. You need youngsters for that :D 

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