What do you think caused Martin to loose his grip on the material?

[Morte]

14 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

...but if Daenerys Targaryen shows up with three full-grown (and still growing) dragons, Tyrion Lannister, the Unsullied, the Second Sons/the Stormcrows, a bunch of red priests, every Dothraki screamer known to man, thousands of freedmen, her own personal archmaester and an Ironborn husband of her own to manage her massive navy...

(Potentially) you forgot a bunch of Wildlings, her personal shadow binder and Barristan the Bold!

SCNR

[argonak]

How credible of a threat are the ironborn at this point in the story?  They raided (with little return as discussed at the kingsmoot) the North when all its men were away.   They still lost men and ships in that war.  What's left of their fleet has gone on a 'wild dragon' chase halfway across the world.  They've fought and captured other crappier ships on their way to Slaver's bay, which means they've taken casualties and worn down their strength.  More ships isn't necessarily a good thing, as they're certainly not getting more men (except maybe enslaved rowers).  Back on the Iron Islands, Euron is left with his own ship, and the much smaller raiding longships that the small captains have.  Even if Victarion finds Dany, she's probably just going to take his ships the way she took her unsullied, and everything else she's taken, with Victarion ending up in a dragon's belly.  

The Ironborn just aren't worth it as allies.  nobody likes them, and they're not half as strong as they think they are.  Their islands are small, poor, and far from the action in Westeros.  Frankly I've never understood how they can be represented as a real threat to anyone in Westeros.  And where the heck do they even get wood for their ships at this point?

[The Sleeper]

7 hours ago, argonak said:

How credible of a threat are the ironborn at this point in the story?  They raided (with little return as discussed at the kingsmoot) the North when all its men were away.   They still lost men and ships in that war.  What's left of their fleet has gone on a 'wild dragon' chase halfway across the world.  They've fought and captured other crappier ships on their way to Slaver's bay, which means they've taken casualties and worn down their strength.  More ships isn't necessarily a good thing, as they're certainly not getting more men (except maybe enslaved rowers).  Back on the Iron Islands, Euron is left with his own ship, and the much smaller raiding longships that the small captains have.  Even if Victarion finds Dany, she's probably just going to take his ships the way she took her unsullied, and everything else she's taken, with Victarion ending up in a dragon's belly.  

The Ironborn just aren't worth it as allies.  nobody likes them, and they're not half as strong as they think they are.  Their islands are small, poor, and far from the action in Westeros.  Frankly I've never understood how they can be represented as a real threat to anyone in Westeros.  And where the heck do they even get wood for their ships at this point?

Euron doesn't want to conquer. He wants to destroy. Think of the Basilisk Isles or the Stepstones. He wants to turn all of Westeros into that where he can play reaver, exact tribute and not bother with actually governing anything. For that he needs Dany and her dragons, not the Ironborne. Which is why he is leaving them behind. With the storm he is calling he will leave the Redwyne fleet in tatters and many nests of Ironborne scattered around that will be a bitch to clear out. That is the real threat of the Ironborne. Disruption. 

Victarion is his stalking horse and guinea pig on how the dragonhorn works. He probably sent him away because of the threat to his authority and to test the waters before his arrival. 

[The Coconut God]

16 hours ago, argonak said:

How credible of a threat are the ironborn at this point in the story?  They raided (with little return as discussed at the kingsmoot) the North when all its men were away.   They still lost men and ships in that war. 

The ironborn didn't suffer big losses during the Wot5K. They lost Theon's crew, the token force Victarion left behind at Moat Cailin and Asha's crew at Deepwood Motte, all of which were small groups, totaling something like 300 men at the absolute most, and more likely half of that, which is negligible considering the armies of the other great houses consists of thousands or tens of thousands of soldiers. And they didn't lose any naval battle, so the core of their forces is intact. They are pretty much at full strength now and ready to enter the scene, just like Dorne and the Vale.

[BlackLightning]

On ‎8‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 11:27 AM, Morte said:

(Potentially) you forgot a bunch of Wildlings, her personal shadow binder and Barristan the Bold!

SCNR

 

What wildlings? And her personal shadowbinder...you mean Quaithe?

I doubt Quaithe will come. She'll probably help Daenerys from afar, she's too smart.

8 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

The Ironborn didn't suffer big losses during the Wot5K. They lost Theon's crew, the token force Victarion left behind at Moat Cailin and Asha's crew at Deepwood Motte, all of which were small groups, totaling something like 300 men at the absolute most, and more likely half of that, which is negligible considering the armies of the other great houses consists of thousands or tens of thousands of soldiers. And they didn't lose any naval battle, so the core of their forces is intact. They are pretty much at full strength now and ready to enter the scene, just like Dorne and the Vale.

 

Exactly.

18 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Euron doesn't want to conquer. He wants to destroy. Think of the Basilisk Isles or the Stepstones. He wants to turn all of Westeros into that where he can play reaver, exact tribute and not bother with actually governing anything. For that he needs Dany and her dragons, not the Ironborne. Which is why he is leaving them behind. With the storm he is calling he will leave the Redwyne fleet in tatters and many nests of Ironborne scattered around that will be a bitch to clear out. That is the real threat of the Ironborne. Disruption.  

Victarion is his stalking horse and guinea pig on how the dragonhorn works. He probably sent him away because of the threat to his authority and to test the waters before his arrival. 

Well, Euron does want to conquer. It's just that his definition of conquer includes wholesale, near-indiscriminate destruction.

Westeros and the Iron Throne are just the absolute beginning.

I would also add that Victarion is also serving as a test dummy and a scapegoat for Euron. Someone needs to test out Daenerys...

[Morte]

21 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

What wildlings? And her personal shadowbinder...you mean Quaithe?

I doubt Quaithe will come. She'll probably help Daenerys from afar, she's too smart.

The comment wasn't mend too seriously.

I, too, think that Quaithe will most likely stay behind (through it is possible for her to come alone). It is quite likely however, No, not just likely, just looked it up: Cotter Pyke says that much: At least parts of Mother Mole's group was taken by slavers to Essos, just as she prophesied (the visions did not mention the slavery part, I presume) ...

[The Coconut God]

8 minutes ago, Morte said:

At least parts of Mother Mole's group was taken by slavers to Essos, just as she prophesied (the visions did not mention the slavery part, I presume) ...

I still think her vision was of Jon & Co leaving White Harbor and it hasn't come to pass yet (I have a thread about it on Reddit if you want to check the details). She saw a fleet a the Lyseni only brought two ships.

[BlackLightning]

37 minutes ago, Morte said:

The comment wasn't mend too seriously.

I, too, think that Quaithe will most likely stay behind (through it is possible for her to come alone). It is quite likely however, No, not just likely, just looked it up: Cotter Pyke says that much: At least parts of Mother Mole's group was taken by slavers to Essos, just as she prophesied (the visions did not mention the slavery part, I presume) ...

23 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

I still think her vision was of Jon & Co leaving White Harbor and it hasn't come to pass yet (I have a thread about it on Reddit if you want to check the details). She saw a fleet a the Lyseni only brought two ships.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot about those wildlings. I think the Sealord of Braavos saved them and they are in his custody.

Should prove interesting once Arya finds out and/or when Daenerys (and maybe Tyrion) comes to Braavos. I wonder how Daenerys will react to them though.

[The Coconut God]

43 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Oh yeah, I forgot about those wildlings. I think the Sealord of Braavos saved them and they are in his custody.

Should prove interesting once Arya finds out and/or when Daenerys (and maybe Tyrion) comes to Braavos. I wonder how Daenerys will react to them though.

I'm not sure Dany will get to react to them directly, more likely she will do so through Jon.

I think their purpose is to provide a frame of reference for the Sealord for when Jon finally arrives with more of them.

[Morte]

1 hour ago, The Coconut God said:

I still think her vision was of Jon & Co leaving White Harbor and it hasn't come to pass yet (I have a thread about it on Reddit if you want to check the details). She saw a fleet a the Lyseni only brought two ships.

Sorry, I was sarcastic again: Yes, her vision was about something different, as she saw a fleet, I read your theory about the story shifting to Essos, and while I don't agree with you on the Exodus scenario as a whole, I do agree that she does interpret her prophesy wrong, as she only sees a fleet coming to a snowy harbor. But at the time Daenery's big fleet will come to Westeros almost any harbour north of Dorne would be more or less snowy.

I often thought about where Daenerys could possible land with her fleet - there aren't that much places/harbours big enough (Dragonstone for example would be too small for that many ships). If the fleet will indeed get that big as it seems now, she would need a big natural bay...

Anyway: Thanks for sharing! If GRRM had more time, the Exodus-idea could be a way to smoothen the story and entangle his knots, but I don't think it is very likely at this moment

41 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Oh yeah, I forgot about those wildlings. I think the Sealord of Braavos saved them and they are in his custody.

Should prove interesting once Arya finds out and/or when Daenerys (and maybe Tyrion) comes to Braavos. I wonder how Daenerys will react to them though.

In fact, they can even meet with both of them without Arya and Daenerys seeing each other till much later, as only one of the two ships came to Braavos, the second (Elephant) is said to have succeeded in getting to Lys with it's "cargo".

For Arya they may provide a way to get out of the psychopath-killing-thing and remember who she is and that she still has people she can care about, so I could see her going with them.

As for Daenerys: They are almost all women and children, taken as slaves in a situation of peril - she will most likely welcome them with open arms. They will however be crucial for spreading the news on what is happening beyond the Wall in Essos, backing Maerwyn's words and maybe even get the Sealord to take the situation more serious.

It get's more interesting the more people are on the move or actually manage to get somewhere and talk to each other ... We need the next book!

[The Coconut God]

8 hours ago, Morte said:

I do agree that she does interpret her prophesy wrong, as she only sees a fleet coming to a snowy harbor. But at the time Daenery's big fleet will come to Westeros almost any harbour north of Dorne would be more or less snowy.

I often thought about where Daenerys could possible land with her fleet - there aren't that much places/harbours big enough (Dragonstone for example would be too small for that many ships). If the fleet will indeed get that big as it seems now, she would need a big natural bay...

I'm not sure if there is a snowy harbour... the text specifically says that the fleet will take the wildlings to Essos, but it is a third party retelling, so we don't know exactly what Mother Mole saw or said ("[...] she had a vision of a fleet of ships arriving to carry the free folk across the narrow sea"). My assumption, in context of my theory, was that these would be Tormund's wildlings leaving from White Harbor with Jon, and that Hardhome is just a red herring.

There may be more references to the prophecy that I missed, in which case it could be Dany's landing (with the argument that Mother Mole saw the ships as a "salvation" for the free folks, and simply made an assumption that it would take them away), but obviously I'll stick to the first option until Winds comes out and proves me wrong!  

[BlackLightning]

19 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

I'm not sure Dany will get to react to them directly, more likely she will do so through Jon.

I think their purpose is to provide a frame of reference for the Sealord for when Jon finally arrives with more of them.

Umm...I'm still not convinced by your theory on this massive exodus to Essos that's going to happen either at the end of The Winds of Winter early on in A Dream of Spring. 

I'm not saying there won't be an exodus to Essos. However, no offense, I think the idea of moving the story to Essos this late in the game when literally EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER has been waiting for Daenerys and friends to show up Westeros is stupid. Why would you spend 20 years doing that only to take a hard left and have everyone come to her?

Like we have been actively building towards a massive Daenerys vs. Aegon confrontation since A Game of Thrones (or if you didn't pick up on the conversation Arya overheard, since A Clash of Kings). Aegon has nothing to fight for in Essos because everything about him is about being the perfect king to sit the Iron Throne--which is in Westeros. In any case, Daenerys will be the de facto ruler of all Essos by the time he comes back. If he's running back to Essos with his tail between his legs, why on Earth would he refuse to submit to Daenerys?

And it's clear that the Stark kids are clearly taking the long way back to Winterfell. What's the point of all of that if they don't even reunite in Winterfell? Or what's the point if they do reunite in Winterfell but only have enough time for a 10-minute meet-and-greet.

But I do think that Mother Mole's interpretation of her vision is wrong...and that she likely knows that there is a huge chance it is wrong. Her depictions of a snowy harbor can mean almost any harbor from the Weeping Town to Lannisport to Hardhome once winter really kicks in.

19 hours ago, Morte said:

I often thought about where Daenerys could possible land with her fleet - there aren't that much places/harbours big enough (Dragonstone for example would be too small for that many ships). If the fleet will indeed get that big as it seems now, she would need a big natural bay...

4

If you want to make Daenerys' return to look more like a scary invasion, you have multiple landing points.

Dragonstone will probably be Daenerys' base of power. For many, many obvious reasons.

But have you thought about the Vale at all? The Andals launched their own very successful invasion of Westeros that way -- which is a point that was not lost on Tyrion when he passed through Andalos in Dance. Also, Sansa and Littlefinger (if they have their way) are likely going to be taking 70-90% of the Vale's might to Winterfell. So, there's likely not going to be anyone of note there. And then, Tyrion has connections (to say the least) in the Vale that he can use. Sure, the Vale might be snowed in but snow can melt.

So Gulltown - and maybe even Littlefinger's own holdfast LOL @ the irony because Tyrion really would be that petty - is a good spot.

And, unlike the show, Daenerys could very well be at the point where she just doesn't give a fuck. So she could just drop off her Dothraki super-khalasar off in the Crownlands, the Stormlands or worse...the Riverlands. Life generally already sucks at Maidenpool and Duskendale but poor Saltpans just can't get a break.

But let's talk about the bold part...

I think that, similar to the show, there will be this massive naval battle between Victarion and Euron before Daenerys even gets to Westeros. Euron will likely win because Victarion is an idiot and Euron is basically a sorcerer at this point. Daenerys will end up getting away (maybe) but...she loses up to a third - or, God forbid, half - of her fleet.

If she loses even a quarter of her fleet, she'll have that much more room.

19 hours ago, Morte said:

For Arya they may provide a way to get out of the psychopath-killing-thing and remember who she is and that she still has people she can care about, so I could see her going with them.

As for Daenerys: They are almost all women and children, taken as slaves in a situation of peril - she will most likely welcome them with open arms. They will however be crucial for spreading the news on what is happening beyond the Wall in Essos, backing Maerwyn's words and maybe even get the Sealord to take the situation more serious.

It get's more interesting the more people are on the move or actually manage to get somewhere and talk to each other ... We need the next book!

2

It'll be interesting to see how Arya reacts to the arrival of a bunch of wildlings. Because Arya's reaction to Samwell and Daeron/Dareon (???) is quite telling. I'm LOL'ing about it right now but if Arya starts cutting them down like the Stark kings and wardens used to have to do...then I just don't know.

I'm also looking to see how Tyrion reacts to this as well. Because Tyrion has been to the Wall and has personally heard some very distressing things from high-ranking officers of the Night's Watch. If wildlings are running for their lives so much so that they are starting to appear in Essos, that should be absolutely alarming to Tyrion.

If the Sealord takes the situation with the Others in Westeros as seriously as I hope/think he will, then the Iron Bank won't be too far behind. All of their assets in Westeros will be in immediate danger, with their Essosi assets potentially next on the chopping block. And that probably triples the chance of that the Faceless Men are probably going to get involved - remember, death is holy, precious to them. It'd be very easy to perceive Others as a foul abomination.

OMG....what if Arya is contracted out to assassinate the Night's King/the leader of the Others? It'd make sense: as a Stark of Winterfell, she is fulfilling the role of the Kings of Winter, she is a skinchanger in more ways than one, her fighting style might be an anathema to the Others. All she needs is Valyrian steel and a dagger or a smallsword suits her better than a longsword. She's called the Cat of the Canals and there's a Valyrian steel dagger out there that's called the Catspaw.

LOL, I wonder how Illyrio will react.

[Tagganaro]

10 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

I'm not sure if there is a snowy harbour... the text specifically says that the fleet will take the wildlings to Essos, but it is a third party retelling, so we don't know exactly what Mother Mole saw or said ("[...] she had a vision of a fleet of ships arriving to carry the free folk across the narrow sea"). My assumption, in context of my theory, was that these would be Tormund's wildlings leaving from White Harbor with Jon, and that Hardhome is just a red herring.

There may be more references to the prophecy that I missed, in which case it could be Dany's landing (with the argument that Mother Mole saw the ships as a "salvation" for the free folks, and simply made an assumption that it would take them away), but obviously I'll stick to the first option until Winds comes out and proves me wrong!  

Hmmm...I've always taken it as pretty straight-forward that Mother Mole has misinterpreted the vision (shocking in these books ) and her vision is actually coming true with the Lyseni slaving ships coming to Hardhome and taking the wildlings away as slaves.  We know from Arya's chapter that a couple ships have already arrived and taken wildlings, and I think it's suggested that more and more slaving ships will be arriving.  I think this fits pretty well with the theme of prophecy and interpreting visions being really tricky.

I do think Dany will be landing at Dragonstone if she ever makes it to Westeros.  It just fits thematically as she's basically redoing Aegon's conquest.  

[The Coconut God]

20 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Umm...I'm still not convinced by your theory on this massive exodus to Essos that's going to happen either at the end of The Winds of Winter early on in A Dream of Spring. 

I'm not saying there won't be an exodus to Essos. However, no offense, I think the idea of moving the story to Essos this late in the game when literally EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER has been waiting for Daenerys and friends to show up Westeros is stupid. Why would you spend 20 years doing that only to take a hard left and have everyone come to her?

Like we have been actively building towards a massive Daenerys vs. Aegon confrontation since A Game of Thrones (or if you didn't pick up on the conversation Arya overheard, since A Clash of Kings). Aegon has nothing to fight for in Essos because everything about him is about being the perfect king to sit the Iron Throne--which is in Westeros. In any case, Daenerys will be the de facto ruler of all Essos by the time he comes back. If he's running back to Essos with his tail between his legs, why on Earth would he refuse to submit to Daenerys?

And it's clear that the Stark kids are clearly taking the long way back to Winterfell. What's the point of all of that if they don't even reunite in Winterfell? Or what's the point if they do reunite in Winterfell but only have enough time for a 10-minute meet-and-greet.

But I do think that Mother Mole's interpretation of her vision is wrong...and that she likely knows that there is a huge chance it is wrong. Her depictions of a snowy harbor can mean almost any harbor from the Weeping Town to Lannisport to Hardhome once winter really kicks in.

I think it's a misconception that moving the story to Essos would be costly in terms of book pages. Most of the locations and potential conflicts there have already been seeded; in fact, Feast and Dance would only get more cohesive on re-reads if the so-called filler in them would grow into the main story of Winds and Dance.

Daenerys vs. Aegon, on the other hand, has not been set up at all. The characters have yet to acknowledge each other as rivals, and all the multiple players on Westeros have yet to acknowledge either of them. As @Lady Anna pointed out earlier in this thread, since the War of the Five Kings took three books to play itself out, a balanced narrative would require other major arcs to be roughly three books in length as well, meaning George can't really afford to split Dany vs Aegon and Humanity vs The Others in two separate arcs, If they don't happen in parallel, he'll either end up with a lopsided story, or he'll need to write 9 books.

The Exodus theory is a Hail Mary that says ok, Dany's story is going to be conquering Essos, a single arc, and the story on Westeros is going to be about the invasion of the Others and the dissolution of the kingdom due to internal conflicts bleeding it too badly to defend itself. Again, a single arc, which then seeps into the first one as survivors seek refuge on Dany's part of the world. Aegon does fit thematically in this, because he's a conflict instigator and his arrival will destabilize the South.

Considering where Dany is in the story right now, it would be a stretch to even call her arc in Dance + Winds+ Dream an arc about invading Westeros, because half of that is already deeply rooted in Slaver's Bay. It is nigh impossible to imagine how she would have time for a meaningful, standalone conflict with Aegon as well as a conflict with the Others, in only a volume and a half, in a series where a meta-arc is three volumes deep.

Alternatives to the Exodus no doubt exist, such as killing Jon for good and drawing the curtain on the North, for example, but something radical needs to happen, or the length of the series needs to be adjusted. The Exodus scenario has the advantage of making use of the settings established rather heavily in Feast and Dance, which would be useless and would sag heavily on re-reads if Essos turns out to be irrelevant for the endgame.

[The Coconut God]

10 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Hmmm...I've always taken it as pretty straight-forward that Mother Mole has misinterpreted the vision (shocking in these books ) and her vision is actually coming true with the Lyseni slaving ships coming to Hardhome and taking the wildlings away as slaves.  We know from Arya's chapter that a couple ships have already arrived and taken wildlings, and I think it's suggested that more and more slaving ships will be arriving.  I think this fits pretty well with the theme of prophecy and interpreting visions being really tricky.

That's a possibility for sure. My counter-argument to that was that no circumstance at Hardhome fits with the prophecy all that well:

- the two Lyseni ships aren't a fleet

- the fleet sent from Eastwatch is doomed, as per Mel's own visions

- any other slaver ships coming in the future probably won't find anyone alive

As such, I deemed these events red herrings meant to hide the big twist of the Exodus from White Harbor, where there is indeed a real fleet for Tormund's wildlings.

[Morte]

10 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

There may be more references to the prophecy that I missed, in which case it could be Dany's landing (with the argument that Mother Mole saw the ships as a "salvation" for the free folks, and simply made an assumption that it would take them away), but obviously I'll stick to the first option until Winds comes out and proves me wrong!  

It's good to stick to once pet theory, I do have a few on my own.

However I do thing that @Jabar of House Titan  is right here: Martin did invest too much to make the "get-people-to-Dany-no-matter-how-much-this-damages-her-storyline-by-making-her-WAIT-AND-DO-NOTHING-and-then-move-them-all-back-to-Westeros" work, for him now going the opposite route. However, maybe this was indeed one of his potential plans for a solution.

I said "Snowy" because it must have been a place she could identify or guess as "Hard Home", had she seen something that looked like a place in the south (sunny, warm etc.), she would have gone with the rest of the Wildlings and tried to reach a harbour more fitting. But again: Every place beside Dorne will sooner then later look familiar for Wildlings - it already started, as we know from - for example - Jaime.

21 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

If you want to make Daenerys' return to look more like a scary invasion, you have multiple landing points.

Dragonstone will probably be Daenerys' base of power. For many, many obvious reasons.

But have you thought about the Vale at all? The Andals launched their own very successful invasion of Westeros that way -- which is a point that was not lost on Tyrion when he passed through Andalos in Dance. Also, Sansa and Littlefinger (if they have their way) are likely going to be taking 70-90% of the Vale's might to Winterfell. So, there's likely not going to be anyone of note there. And then, Tyrion has connections (to say the least) in the Vale that he can use. Sure, the Vale might be snowed in but snow can melt.

So Gulltown - and maybe even Littlefinger's own holdfast LOL @ the irony because Tyrion really would be that petty - is a good spot.

And, unlike the show, Daenerys could very well be at the point where she just doesn't give a fuck. So she could just drop off her Dothraki super-khalasar off in the Crownlands, the Stormlands or worse...the Riverlands. Life generally already sucks at Maidenpool and Duskendale but poor Saltpans just can't get a break. 

Yes, she will take Dragonstone, but I don't think she will stay there as in the ...you know that. I did think about the Saltpans, because there are things to pick up, too (Rubies and a man and his horse, if Brienne and Jaime aren't faster for the latter).

The Bay of Crabs in general would be a good place to land, as the towns there are not too far away to land a fleet in multiple harbours.

32 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I think that, similar to the show, there will be this massive naval battle between Victarion and Euron before Daenerys even gets to Westeros. Euron will likely win because Victarion is an idiot and Euron is basically a sorcerer at this point. Daenerys will end up getting away (maybe) but...she loses up to a third - or, God forbid, half - of her fleet.

If she loses even a quarter of her fleet, she'll have that much more room.

I think we can agree that wherever she will land her fleet, the people will be like the pirate outlook in "Asterix", seeing the ships and the flags they are carrying.

41 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I'm also looking to see how Tyrion reacts to this as well. Because Tyrion has been to the Wall and has personally heard some very distressing things from high-ranking officers of the Night's Watch. If wildlings are running for their lives so much so that they are starting to appear in Essos, that should be absolutely alarming to Tyrion.

This will be one of the moments where we will see that truly became of Tyrion: Is he able to see his mistake in how he treated Alliser and how he dismissed the things he heared at Castle Black? Will he be pro or contra a "try-to-save-the-world-and-most-likely-dying-in-the-attempt"?

44 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

If the Sealord takes the situation with the Others in Westeros as seriously as I hope/think he will, then the Iron Bank won't be too far behind. All of their assets in Westeros will be in immediate danger, with their Essosi assets potentially next on the chopping block. And that probably triples the chance of that the Faceless Men are probably going to get involved - remember, death is holy, precious to them. It'd be very easy to perceive Others as a foul abomination.

Exactly. Sh** is hitting the fan in Westeros and not much later in Essos too (remember, the gras has started dying in the Dothraki Sea). I, too, don't see the Faceless Men siding with the Others or the Drowned Whatsoever - as you said: For them death is special and something in balance with life.

50 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

OMG....what if Arya is contracted out to assassinate the Night's King/the leader of the Others? It'd make sense: as a Stark of Winterfell, she is fulfilling the role of the Kings of Winter, she is a skinchanger in more ways than one, her fighting style might be an anathema to the Others. All she needs is Valyrian steel and a dagger or a smallsword suits her better than a longsword. She's called the Cat of the Canals and there's a Valyrian steel dagger out there that's called the Catspaw.

She isn't a fully trained assassin by now, and as Martin removed the five year gap, it's unlikely for her to become a true Faceless Man - but I also don't necessary think it's what the FM wanted her to become: For me it always seemed as if they try to get her to connect back to her self by forcing her to abandon it. I could well see her being send on a mission with another FM to Westeros however (remember: there is no Night King in the books, maybe there will never be one).

[The Coconut God]

6 minutes ago, Morte said:

However I do thing that @Jabar of House Titan  is right here: Martin did invest too much to make the "get-people-to-Dany-no-matter-how-much-this-damages-her-storyline-by-making-her-WAIT-AND-DO-NOTHING-and-then-move-them-all-back-to-Westeros" work, for him now going the opposite route. However, maybe this was indeed one of his potential plans for a solution.

I said "Snowy" because it must have been a place she could identify or guess as "Hard Home", had she seen something that looked like a place in the south (sunny, warm etc.), she would have gone with the rest of the Wildlings and tried to reach a harbour more fitting. But again: Every place beside Dorne will sooner then later look familiar for Wildlings - it already started, as we know from - for example - Jaime.

I think whatever the story is going to be in Winds, he already had that in mind while working on Feast and Dance. Just because it's difficult to go through the iterations doesn't mean he has no clue what he wanted to write about. He's a gardener, yes, but as a gardener you know what kind of seeds you plant, if not how long the growing will take.

I believe that if the Exodus theory is true, he allowed Dany to stay in Meereen on purpose, since he never had any intention for her to reach Westeros. We'll know for sure in Winds.

As for Mother Mole, keep in mind that she is a wildling and wouldn't know what a city or port is supposed to look like. Hardhome was the only real town and port north of the Wall, even though ruined, so even if she saw White Harbor, in her mind Hardhome was the closest thing to it.

[Talking Hodor]

The following issues are responsible for the current delay:

The show is confusing him and its outpacing of his story is making him subconsciously want to diverge his story even more than originally planned, leading to too many rewrites.

GRRM refuses to buy a laptop and write while on the road, and he's found that traveling all over the globe is awesome.

The story refuses to fast-travel the characters, even a little bit, and puts far too much emphasis on every meal they eat. Just starve the characters and jump from place to place more! They won't notice.

The gardening approach might be appropriate for a little garden, but GRRM created a massive farm. He needs an outline to keep himself on track.

Money apparently no longer motivates him.

His age is catching up to him.

 

 

[T and A]

7 hours ago, Talking Hodor said:

The show is confusing him

Yeah...because they actually managed to bring the story to an end . Mindblowing for him!! Right now he is like "is this even posible given the laws of physics?" 

[Talking Hodor]

Well, the show definitely defied physics. Gendry, the message raven, and dragons are now officially faster than Santa Claus, which physicists have proven is faster than the speed of light.