What do you think caused Martin to loose his grip on the material?

[Cas Stark]

53 minutes ago, divica said:

I was of the same opinion until I thought of something.

We actually know that the book plot will be very diferent from the tv show because grrm said that there will be another dance with dragons.

Assuming that D&D told grrm that they didn t want to do it and that their season 6 will be very diferent from his book how should the book publishers and tv producers react?

Would it be good to have winds released and make it clear that the show and books are very diferent or would the tv producers and book publisher get to an agreement to delay the book until it doesn t hurt the show?

The show has said that they are using the ending that George gave them, they loved it, and while the 'journey' may differ and there are some other differences, in the main, it's the same ending.  Therefore, the only way I see the books will be 'very' different is if the author basically trashes the contract he made with HBO and changes the ending.  But, since I don't believe he will ever actually finish the books, it's a moot point.

As far as dance w/dragons there are only 3 dragons, the NK has one, so when the NK is riding the dead dragon and faces off with Dany...there is the dance with dragons.  Not that you can really consider anything GRRM says as wholly credible, this is after all, a guy whose last novel was called Dance w/Dragons and included nothing of the kind.

Lastly, the publisher only loses the longer the books are delayed.  There is nothing good in this for them.  Maybe the show benefits marginally, but when the original agreement was made w/HBO there was no thought that it was even possible the show would outrun the books, and this is exactly what Martin said, right up until he didnt/

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

On 9/21/2018 at 11:17 AM, Cas Stark said:

I understand people want to be optimistic, but all you have to do is read his blog and listen to what he says to see that he is not already finished, he bristles at questions about Winds, he's already made excuses for himself if he didn't finish, so I really really don't see that he has finished Winds, let alone both books.  But then I am extremely pessimistic about GRRM and I don't believe he has been writing in any meaningful way since he missed his self imposed deadline of Jan. 2016.  Plus, when has had had time to write two books given his travel schedule and activities?

The 'best time' to release Winds has already passed, it would have been before season 6, so that he would tell the story of Jon's resurrection, not the show.  

I agree with you, once he started making excuses about other works being remembered despite not being finished. I knew it was over. Because the only way this thing has any chance of being finished is if the author really wants to finish it and wills himself to do what it would take to accomplish this.

When he starts that "well, even if it's not finished it will still be great" talk, it means psychologically he's already making excuses and giving himself an out.  Which means he lacks the will to do what it takes.  The fact he has so many distractions is because he lacks the will to discipline himself and dedicate himself to the task at hand.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not even sure even if he has a will of iron and drive of Andrew Carnegie he'd able to finish the series at this point. But the fact he has far less just means he has no chance.

[Rhodan]

14 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

As far as dance w/dragons there are only 3 dragons, the NK has one, so when the NK is riding the dead dragon and faces off with Dany...there is the dance with dragons.  Not that you can really consider anything GRRM says as wholly credible, this is after all, a guy whose last novel was called Dance w/Dragons and included nothing of the kind.

I don´t know if this is supposed to be joke or not, since Dance of Dragons refers primarily to FAegon plot (so it kinde began in books, sort of) and he might never get the dragon.

[Cas Stark]

5 hours ago, Rhodan said:

I don´t know if this is supposed to be joke or not, since Dance of Dragons refers primarily to FAegon plot (so it kinde began in books, sort of) and he might never get the dragon.

I don't think it does, the original 'dance of dragons' was the Targaryen civil war which had people on dragons fighting each other....so, the second 'dance' would be the same....and since Aegon isn't even in the show, it is strongly suggestive that he doesn't get a dragon....and none of that changes the fact that unless the meaning of the term is stretched beyond recognition there was no dance with dragons in the book that has that title.

[Rhodan]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't think it does, the original 'dance of dragons' was the Targaryen civil war which had people on dragons fighting each other....so, the second 'dance' would be the same....and since Aegon isn't even in the show, it is strongly suggestive that he doesn't get a dragon....and none of that changes the fact that unless the meaning of the term is stretched beyond recognition there was no dance with dragons in the book that has that title.

OK, I meant repetion of just that - Targaryen war over succession between male and female relative, which the FAgon´s presence supposedly leads into. Of course I know this didn´t even start in ADWD, which is just another result of series being out of Martin´s control.

[T and A]

21 hours ago, divica said:

Assuming that D&D told grrm that they didn t want to do it and that their season 6 will be very diferent from his book how should the book publishers and tv producers react?

Would it be good to have winds released and make it clear that the show and books are very diferent or would the tv producers and book publisher get to an agreement to delay the book until it doesn t hurt the show?

Sorry, but this is just bogus. Not trying to be mean or anything but this is just a desperate try to overlook the obvious. The showrunners, the producers, the publisher, the fans have waited for years for this book. It would be way easier for the showrunners to have a book from which they could adapt their script. They still could deviate from it, if they wanted to, like they allready did in the past seasons, but they would still have a complete written source from which they could copy. No one is happy what GRRM has done. He has just showed that he is completely unreliable and not able of finishing a story. In short: not the best author out there.

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, Rhodan said:

OK, I meant repetion of just that - Targaryen war over succession between male and female relative, which the FAgon´s presence supposedly leads into. Of course I know this didn´t even start in ADWD, which is just another result of series being out of Martin´s control.

I really don't think he has time to give Aegon a dragon and have he and Dany square off in a huge battle, so, as much as I wanted the Aegon plot to matter, I think it won't, it's another blind alley designed to waste time in the story.  It's even possible that Cersei will best Aegon and he will be totally irrelevant.  It's still theoretically possible Aegon gets a dragon and that dragon will die, but I think it is much more likely that the 'dance' is between the Others who will get a dragon, and Dany's remaining two dragons and it will happen more similar to how it did in the show. 

[kissdbyfire]

5 hours ago, T and A said:

Sorry, but this is just bogus. Not trying to be mean or anything but this is just a desperate try to overlook the obvious. The showrunners, the producers, the publisher, the fans have waited for years for this book.

The showrunners, the producers, the publisher(s), the fans wait because they want to, no one is making them wait. There are shitloads of books and shows out there, some of them pretty good. I can only speak for myself, but I've waited for years for AFfC, then ADwD, and now TWoW and whatever else may follow. And for my part, I have no regrets. 

5 hours ago, T and A said:

It would be way easier for the showrunners to have a book from which they could adapt their script. They still could deviate from it, if they wanted to, like they allready did in the past seasons, but they would still have a complete written source from which they could copy. No one is happy what GRRM has done. He has just showed that he is completely unreliable and not able of finishing a story. In short: not the best author out there.

Pardon me, but

D&D had books to guide them for series two, three, four, five, and all of those sucked manky dog's balls. The only thing that would make it easier for the showrunners is if they had actual writers, who know how to write, write everything for them. 

"You want th good girl, but you need the bad pussy", or whatever. I rest my case.

[T and A]

51 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The showrunners, the producers, the publisher(s), the fans wait because they want to, no one is making them 

Pardon me, but

D&D had books to guide them for series two, three, four, five, and all of those sucked manky dog's balls. The only thing that would make it easier for the showrunners is if they had actual writers, who know how to write, write everything for them. 

"You want th good girl, but you need the bad pussy", or whatever. I rest my case.

Pardon me, but this coment is utterly trash, if we are at "manky dog's balls". The number of fans of the show, the number of countries that show the show, the number of awards this show got (national and international) prove you otherwise. Or are you a special internet snowflake thinking you can judge the quality better than more then 100 Million people including people who work in this field? That speaks a lot for you, not about the show.(Also, also, five prequels). If you don't like it, that's fine, but don't be ridicoulous to state such generalized bullshit. Who are you to judge a TV Show anyhow? Has Hollywood forgot to call the almighty "Kissedbyfire" on how to write succesful tv shows? If they needed one..well they would probably call D&D since, you know...success, money and stuff. 

57 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The showrunners, the producers, the publisher(s), the fans wait because they want to, no one is making them wait. There are shitloads of books and shows out there, some of them pretty good. I can only speak for myself, but I've waited for years for AFfC, then ADwD, and now TWoW and whatever else may follow. And for my part, I have no regrets. 

What the actual f* are you talking about? I am not arguing that the persons above are waiting for the books as fans, but for business purposes. Do you think the publishers can't wait to know what happens to little Arya or what? How can you compare yourself to the interest groups above? 

[Cas Stark]

I don't think it's a coincidence that the show lost it's grip on the material about the same time as Martin did. ...which bringing it back to the topic happened when he was writing Feast, he lost control when he abandoned the 5 year gap and the more time there is to reflect on the inferiority of books 5 and 6, the clearer that becomes to me.  The delays on Winds just extra evidence.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 9/23/2018 at 1:00 PM, divica said:

Assuming that D&D told grrm that they didn t want to do it and that their season 6 will be very diferent from his book how should the book publishers and tv producers react?

Good question. The show did not pop up suddenly. There were talks, meetings, contracts. and a pilot that was reworked. During that time martin perhaps espoused he could deliver a complete saga. Did that pan out? It didn't.  Martin sold an incomplete story that is still incomplete.

I will not know until martin ends his saga whether the show and his books reach the same conclusion. Nor will I know what adaptions have been made.

That being said, I will accept the HBO ending because it is an ending and I sincerely question if martin finishes his saga.

[SuperMario]

Martin sold the rights to HBO back in 2007. Since that time he has published the second half of a single book in the series and is nowhere close to releasing any others. He hasn't had a grasp on the book series throughout the entire time HBO has been involved.

Martin will never finish his book series. And he has said himself that the show's version is just as legitimate as the book's. Just different. So when the author says the show is legitimate, and we will never get the book ending, sadly I put full stock in the show's ending as the only legitimate ending we will get - as shitty as it will be.

[Tagganaro]

19 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't think it's a coincidence that the show lost it's grip on the material about the same time as Martin did. ...which bringing it back to the topic happened when he was writing Feast, he lost control when he abandoned the 5 year gap and the more time there is to reflect on the inferiority of books 5 and 6, the clearer that becomes to me.  The delays on Winds just extra evidence.

Well, as has been discussed I'm not sure the 5 year gap would have solved everything or anything really- hence why it was abandoned.  There are simply way too many characters for which the 5 year gap wouldn't work.  That leads me to believe he really "lost his grip" in A Storm of Swords, which introduced many of these new plotlines and characters.  If I'd really want to simplify things in an insanely theoretical speculative moment  in which he'd lost his grip, I'd probably focus on Dany's decision to stay in Mereen at the end of ASOS.  That had the snowball effect of creating the Mereeneese Knot and forcing these long meandering travelogue chapters like Tyrions, Quentyns, Victarions, etc.  

Just focusing on that particular decision, I could come up with a major snowball effect that had GRRM had Dany make a different decision, many of the major issues with AFFC and ADWD could have been solved rather easily and simply.  

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

Well, as has been discussed I'm not sure the 5 year gap would have solved everything or anything really- hence why it was abandoned.  There are simply way too many characters for which the 5 year gap wouldn't work.  That leads me to believe he really "lost his grip" in A Storm of Swords, which introduced many of these new plotlines and characters.  If I'd really want to simplify things in an insanely theoretical speculative moment  in which he'd lost his grip, I'd probably focus on Dany's decision to stay in Mereen at the end of ASOS.  That had the snowball effect of creating the Mereeneese Knot and forcing these long meandering travelogue chapters like Tyrions, Quentyns, Victarions, etc.  

Just focusing on that particular decision, I could come up with a major snowball effect that had GRRM had Dany make a different decision, many of the major issues with AFFC and ADWD could have been solved rather easily and simply.  

He never had much of a grip to begin with, but it seems to me it's the aftermath of Storm where the problems started, as for 5 year gap, I think it works fine for most characters.  Arya:  5 years of training;  Bran: 5 years in the cave; Jamie and Cersei: 5 years of ruling; Tyrion: 5 years in Essos, Jon 5 years as LC, Stannis is a problem, he would have needed a different storyline, like going to Essos to get an army or having died off page during the gap, Theon, same, died off page, or a different story, Dany, in 5 years she would have gotten her army and ready to sail to Westeros, Sansa: plotting in the Vale w/LF.  It seems that the majority of characters would have been fine w/ the gap and a few reminiscences of the high points of the missing years.

What we ended up with was 2 books in 18 years and counting that did little to nothing in moving the story forward.  

[Tagganaro]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

He never had much of a grip to begin with, but it seems to me it's the aftermath of Storm where the problems started, as for 5 year gap, I think it works fine for most characters.  Arya:  5 years of training;  Bran: 5 years in the cave; Jamie and Cersei: 5 years of ruling; Tyrion: 5 years in Essos, Jon 5 years as LC, Stannis is a problem, he would have needed a different storyline, like going to Essos to get an army or having died off page during the gap, Theon, same, died off page, Dany, in 5 years she would have gotten her army and ready to sail to Westeros, Sansa: plotting in the Vale w/LF.  It seems that the majority of characters would have been fine w/ the gap and a few reminiscences of the high points of the missing years.

What we ended up with was 2 books in 18 years and counting that did little to nothing in moving the story forward.  

yeah, I don't think it really would have worked for anyone except for Arya, Sansa, Dany and maybe Bran (I have issues with Bran hanging out in the tree for 5 years in a post-apocalyptic wasteland hell on earth North), besides for aging everyone up.  To me it could never work because a lot of issues had to be dealt with immediately- I for one would not be happy with it just cutting 5 years ahead with no effort made to deal with the ramifications of TWO5K or the Battle at the Wall...which is what Cersei, Jaime, Brienne, Theon and Jon's chapters deal with.  I don't think the 5 year gap would work with the imminently approaching threat of the Others either, which you begin the novels with the wildlings fleeing south due to it and then it's just like "nope, 5 years later and the Others still chilling up there." (to be clear I still even have issues with the glacial pace the Others seem to be moving at and that's with no time skip .

I think it would be pretty weak for Tyrion to jump 5 years ahead as well with him just fresh off murdering Tywin, and IMO Theon's chapters are some of the best in the series in ADWD so it would be a shame to lose those as well.

[Greg B]

15 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

If I'd really want to simplify things in an insanely theoretical speculative moment  in which he'd lost his grip, I'd probably focus on Dany's decision to stay in Mereen at the end of ASOS.  That had the snowball effect of creating the Mereeneese Knot and forcing these long meandering travelogue chapters like Tyrions, Quentyns, Victarions, etc.  

Yes, and it had the added feature of also being ridiculous. Daenerys decides she must "learn to rule" before she can become queen of Westeros. How will she "learn to rule"? She will...rule a conquered foreign city-state backed by an occupying army. Brilliant!

To add insult to injury, after all the brutal slog of aDwD, what do we get? Daenerys realizes that "Meereen will never be her home" and she should have left Meereen and returned to Westeros, as Jorah advised!

“I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl.” [Delirious, she has evidently forgotten the whole idea was to "learn to rule" by ruling the occupied foreign city-state.]

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

“Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass. [Oh gods if only you'd remembered that 2,000 pages earlier...]

Ahhhhhhhh!!! We had to suffer through the whole bloody "knot" and the metric ton of crap it produced only for Daenerys to wind up exactly where she should have been at the end of Storm! I guess it really is a "knot" since we wind up right back where we were...

It's so freaking awful and tragic it's literally painful to think about.

[argonak]

I think instead of a five year jump, he could have just written a bunch of intermittent POVs during the 5 years, and moved the timeline quickly while still keeping tabs on some of the important characters who wouldn't be standing still.  But that would require him to be a little more specific with the timeline so the reader can follow better, which he has so far not wanted to do.

But failing that, he could easily have gotten the plotline back on track; he just doesn't want to.  He clearly wants to write about Brienne meandering about on her Don Quixote quest.  He wants to write about Tyrion sinking into a mire of PTSD and depression.  He's the author, he gets to write about whatever he wants, and these are the things he wants to write about.

Some of the coolest events in the story have happened off page, because he wanted it that way.  And sometimes events which ought to be boring and pointless are sometimes really good pieces of writing.  I enjoy Brienne's questing for example, when I can put aside the fact that it appears completly pointless in comparison to the greater storyline.  Its an interesting piece of character drama.  But these are things that should have belonged in secondary books after the main plotline was completed.  Things to bring us back to the world of westeros after we've sated ourselves on the feast of high adventure. 

Not distractions on the main path that just bulk out word count.

[Tagganaro]

8 hours ago, Greg B said:

Yes, and it had the added feature of also being ridiculous. Daenerys decides she must "learn to rule" before she can become queen of Westeros. How will she "learn to rule"? She will...rule a conquered foreign city-state backed by an occupying army. Brilliant!

To add insult to injury, after all the brutal slog of aDwD, what do we get? Daenerys realizes that "Meereen will never be her home" and she should have left Meereen and returned to Westeros, as Jorah advised!

“I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl.” [Delirious, she has evidently forgotten the whole idea was to "learn to rule" by ruling the occupied foreign city-state.]

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

“Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass. [Oh gods if only you'd remembered that 2,000 pages earlier...]

Ahhhhhhhh!!! We had to suffer through the whole bloody "knot" and the metric ton of crap it produced only for Daenerys to wind up exactly where she should have been at the end of Storm! I guess it really is a "knot" since we wind up right back where we were...

It's so freaking awful and tragic it's literally painful to think about.

.  I hate Dany's ADWD chapters, every time I read about Daario's gleaming golden tooth or naked ladies sword hilts I wanted to vomit .   I will say GRRM did really stick the landing IMO with her final chapter, as well as right before that when she flies off with Drogon.  But getting there was a damn chore.  I think having an editor/outline to work with would have been great here, because I think GRRM felt like Dany the character wouldn't abandon all the slaves of Slaver's Bay after writing himself into this conundrum.  But yeah, trying to finish these books it was inexplicable to leave her there- then when you add in Quentyn, Victarion, and even some of Tyrion's chapters you're at like half a book of filler that could have and should have been avoided IMO.

 

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

4 hours ago, argonak said:

I think instead of a five year jump, he could have just written a bunch of intermittent POVs during the 5 years, and moved the timeline quickly while still keeping tabs on some of the important characters who wouldn't be standing still.  But that would require him to be a little more specific with the timeline so the reader can follow better, which he has so far not wanted to do.

But failing that, he could easily have gotten the plotline back on track; he just doesn't want to.  He clearly wants to write about Brienne meandering about on her Don Quixote quest.  He wants to write about Tyrion sinking into a mire of PTSD and depression.  He's the author, he gets to write about whatever he wants, and these are the things he wants to write about.

Some of the coolest events in the story have happened off page, because he wanted it that way.  And sometimes events which ought to be boring and pointless are sometimes really good pieces of writing.  I enjoy Brienne's questing for example, when I can put aside the fact that it appears completly pointless in comparison to the greater storyline.  Its an interesting piece of character drama.  But these are things that should have belonged in secondary books after the main plotline was completed.  Things to bring us back to the world of westeros after we've sated ourselves on the feast of high adventure. 

Not distractions on the main path that just bulk out word count.

Agreed.  I always felt that Qynten Martell, Brienne, and several other POV in the AFFC/ADWD belongs in a "extended edition" or "director's cut" version of the books but not the "theatrical release" edition.

Arya, Bran, Jon, Sam, Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Sansa, Theon, Davos, are the only POVs we needed, maybe with Aeron to see Euron. That plus a few individual chapters like Melisandre and Arriane.  The only chapter we needed from Dany is her last one, the pit scene can be told from Tyrion's perspective.

That's it.  We didnt' need Brienne, Asha, Quentyn, Victarion. And Jon, Tyrion, Cersei, Davos, and Jaime could have some of their chapters shortened/eliminated.  Put in the conclusion of the battle of ice and battle of fire. You'd have had a well paced, dynamite ADWD.

 

 

 

[argonak]

19 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Agreed.  I always felt that Qynten Martell, Brienne, and several other POV in the AFFC/ADWD belongs in a "extended edition" or "director's cut" version of the books but not the "theatrical release" edition.

Arya, Bran, Jon, Sam, Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Sansa, Theon, Davos, are the only POVs we needed, maybe with Aeron to see Euron. That plus a few individual chapters like Melisandre and Arriane.  The only chapter we needed from Dany is her last one, the pit scene can be told from Tyrion's perspective.

That's it.  We didnt' need Brienne, Asha, Quentyn, Victarion. And Jon, Tyrion, Cersei, Davos, and Jaime could have some of their chapters shortened/eliminated.  Put in the conclusion of the battle of ice and battle of fire. You'd have had a well paced, dynamite ADWD.

 

 

 

I don't really mind the extra POVs, as long as they're sticking with the main plot.  Its interesting to see how Cersei feels about things sometimes (and to find out she's a completly loonely narcasist), as long as its relating to the main plot.

Its easy to criticize I know, but I feel like the entire ironborn and Dorne plots should have just been completly cut out and made for a much better story.   Maybe then GRRM might have been able to finish more than a book a decade.  I want him to be sccessful and finish his story, its always a bit depressing to think about ASOIAF and remmeber its just lieing there unfinished, with the messy 4 and 5 books the most current material.