What do you think caused Martin to loose his grip on the material?

[Three-Fingered Pete]

On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 7:00 AM, Cas Stark said:

I don't think it does, the original 'dance of dragons' was the Targaryen civil war which had people on dragons fighting each other....so, the second 'dance' would be the same....and since Aegon isn't even in the show, it is strongly suggestive that he doesn't get a dragon....and none of that changes the fact that unless the meaning of the term is stretched beyond recognition there was no dance with dragons in the book that has that title.

 

A small distinction, but valid I think. True, there was no dance of dragons in the sense that we saw no flying/fighting dragons with their dragon lords astride them duking it out, but I believe that the title does reflect the little minuet being done by Varys, Illyrio and Doran et al to jockey their protégées into position. The dance is with the dragons, not of the dragons.

[BlackLightning]

1 minute ago, Trefayne said:

 

Yes, because that was the plot she was given to follow to get her back to LSH. Unfortunately, many readers find this plotline unfulfilling for one reason or another or, like me, just treat Brienne's chapters like a Dunk 'n Egg story to be enjoyed for the characters and events until she actually gets somewhere.

Brienne could have hooked up with LSH much earlier and then had Jaime come along. If GRRM didn't want to give too much of that situation away (which would at least have been interesting and productive) he could have just limited her chapters. Bran only had three chapters in all of ADwD when we could of had pages of dreams and visions and warging etc, so it was a conscious choice of the author to do it like that.

Barring that idea, GRRM could have gone a radical new direction and had Brienne go to Dorne on Jaime's behalf to see about getting Myrcella back and then getting involved in the Dorne plot for awhile. After either being somehow involved with or hearing about Myrcella's fate, she travels back north to report (w/o Myrcella), only to hear before reaching KL that Jaime is in the Riverlands, so she travels there to eventually meet up with LSH and Jaime. Given all the chapters devoted to her, I think Brienne could have done all that in the time given.

...

I think that fAegon is a replacement for Renly plot-wise in many ways. There was nothing motivating anything south of KL to get more involved than they already are (barring Dorne sitting on their hands until recently) and at this point I don't think the realm realizes the threat that the Ironborn are now going to pose. Now that they are getting hit from both sides in an, up until now, peaceful region, we may get a Riverlands style travelogue out of there too from someone.

The realm - at large - won't realize the threat that Euron Greyjoy and the Ironborn loyal to him are going to pose until it's too late.

A few characters know that Euron is baaaaaad news but the characters who do know don't know how exactly bad Euron will be. And, more importantly, nobody is listening to them.

The Ironborn are the sleeper threat.

Nobody who wasn't northern cared when they reaved and raided the North. Instead of dealing with the problem that is Balon Greyjoy (this isn't just Cersei's fault, it's Tywin and Tyrion's fault too), the Iron Throne let the problem fester to the point where they now have to juggle the Ironborn terrorizing the #1 breadbasket/fruitbasket of the country with another invasion just south of them in the Stormlands, the arrival of winter and a religious revolution in their own backyard.

Aegon doesn't have the time and resources to fight the Ironborn until after he takes the Iron Throne. And when that happens, he's likely (or rather his Small Council is likely) to, once again, sleep on the Ironborn to concentrate on what's happening in his own backyard: namely the Faith Militant and Daenerys Targaryen.

Daenerys Targaryen is likely to find out early on from Moqorro and Victarion that Euron is probably the worst thing since cheap dance-pop. But she's just as likely to get distracted by the Others, the Targaryen-Martell regime and Tyrion's personal vendettas.

If we get a Riverlands-style travelogue in the Reach, it'll likely be from Samwell. Narratively speaking, he has to go back to Horn Hill and have some words with his father. He probably can't do that until the Citadel falls, Euron Greyjoy sacks Oldtown and (maybe) the Hightower family bites the dust.

[Cas Stark]

13 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

 

A small distinction, but valid I think. True, there was no dance of dragons in the sense that we saw no flying/fighting dragons with their dragon lords astride them duking it out, but I believe that the title does reflect the little minuet being done by Varys, Illyrio and Doran et al to jockey their protégées into position. The dance is with the dragons, not of the dragons.

Others have said similar things, but it feels like a rationalization to me, like readers who can't admit that the author is so lost that he leaves the title, when the story in that book never reaches the title event(s).  So we will have to disagree.

[BlackLightning]

12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Others have said similar things, but it feels like a rationalization to me, like readers who can't admit that the author is so lost that he leaves the title, when the story in that book never reaches the title event(s).  So we will have to disagree.

Yes, this was the book where the dragons - Daenerys and Aegon - were supposed to meet and either:

• fail to get along and go to war
• fail to get along and intrigue / politic against each other
• somewhat get along and agree to a (tentative) alliance
• get along really well and make plans to marry

At least, until the other shoe dropped.

Except this became the book where people only started to include Daenerys and/or Aegon in their games of thrones. The book where the Westerosi characters started to dance with the two dragons.

[The Coconut God]

9 hours ago, Amris said:

Once I notice that a character is used by the author not to tell their story in it's own right but rather as a tool to enhance other storylines later on that takes the tension and grip out of this particular character. Because it means the character is constructed around the premise of getting her to certain locations (that we readers are supposed to be shown or told about) at certain times. In other words: The char is basically (ab)used as an infodump. Which leads to the feeling that the char's story is not dependent on her own actions but rather on what info the author wants to show us at any give moment.

I have to agree with @Jabar of House Titan here in that this is a consequence of George's writing style. and it's not really something that becomes more prevalent in Feast and Dance. There are plenty of situations in the earlier books when this happens, not just with Arya, but with Cat, Sansa, Bran and Sam as well. Hell, Davos was created specifically for this reason. But we don't feel it as strongly because:

A. Most of these characters were there from the start (or from the second book at the latest) so we perceive them as "valid" protagonists.

B. Overall they tell a complete story, that of the War of the Five Kings, so at the end we can put most of the pieces together.

What I like most about these books is precisely the depth created by the puzzle-like nature of this style. I like that I can go back over a volume and discover an important plot point hidden in the corner of a character's eye which I had previously ignored because the character's driving motivation in that particular chapter was something completely different. And I don't think you can have both. If you get the story up-front, that kills the puzzle.

2 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

You don't really need to have Brienne's chapters to deduce this- Jaime's chapters imply this as well as a dream by Dany IIRC.  The Others will make it to the Riverlands.

What you are saying is just a bare minimum of information (and I don't even think Dany's dream was really a vision of the Trident). This isn't so much about informing the readers about what's going to happen next, it's about preparing them with enough information so that when something happens they have enough background knowledge and emotional investment to allow you to go all in on the action without trying to explain the setting as it happens. George isn't above drilling things into our heads repeatedly when he wants us to know something prior to a scene (e.g. the importance of guest rights prior to the Red Wedding).

Just like we were deeply invested in Robb's campaign without even seeing Robb for most of its duration, George might not want to show us in great detail what happens in the Riverlands once the Others arrive. We'll get raven messages and third party stories from the refugees pouring in King's Landing or in the Vale, we might even have a PoV on the ground for a chapter or two, but the rest of it we'll likely have to infer by combining these tidbits with the prior information from Brienne's chapters.

Why do it like that? For one, it's not going to be the only place that is overrun - almost by default, the North will be overrun before the Riverlands - and he can't show every single location being invaded by zombies, it would get monotonous. Second, much like Hardhome, but on a grander scale, it would be a lot more ominous if you didn't have a PoV there. It would truly give you a sense that this place is lost beyond recovery, there's no going there anymore.

Of course, we'll have to see if this was really the point of Brienne's chapters - and if it was, how well it works. All I'm saying is that criticism may be misguided at this point.

2 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I think it's still a valid argument whether Brienne becomes hyper important or not.  Look, Brienne can end up becoming Azor Ahai for all I care but it still doesn't make the time spent with Nimble Dick any more worthwhile.  Especially factoring in that up-front, we know Brienne is following a false lead since we know where Arya and Sansa are.  And like I said above, I actually find Nimble Dick to be an entertaining character and there is something to like about seeing Brienne's hardened suspicious attitude soften towards the guy before he is tragically killed.  And on his own, Nimble Dick isn't too bad as far as Brienne's overall arc goes in AFFC.  The issue is that you then add Septon Meribald, Ser Illifer and that other hedge knight, and all these other minor characters, all while we know up-front that Brienne is on a fool's errand, it becomes pretty tiring for me, especially on re-read but almost just as bad first read where you just want stuff to happen.

I disagree that the characters Brienne encounters are necessarily irrelevant. I stand by what I said before: it all hinges on where her story is headed, and to a lesser degree on how that information plays out in future plot lines.

- Let's say Brienne becomes the leader of the BwB after the death of LSH. In that context, Nimble Dick and Septon Meribald would have been important for her ability to relate to and understand the twisted morality of the broken men she will be commanding. It would allow her to empathize with them, forgive them and care about "saving" them in the first place.

- Septon Meribald and the villagers we see earlier along the way give a heart to the Riverlands so that we know exactly what will be lost once the Others invade without George explicitly showing us. Specific encounters, such as the barricaded castles she passes by with Nimble Dick also show the lack of organization and communication in the area in a way that Jaime, who is at the head of an army and is trying to deal with the most fortified great castles, couldn't have shown us.

- Illifer's chapter is probably less about Illifer and more about setting up the Mad Mouse, who appears again in the Alayne sample character and will probably play some role there. Starting out with Illifer was probably a sleight of hand meant to obscure his character until a later re-read (more knights means you're less likely to remember them individually). It also makes more sense that Brienne would accept to walk with Illifer than the Mad Mouse directly, since the latter was a shadier character.

- The Hound cameo may just be about the Hound, he is important enough to warrant it.

- Hyle Hunt is telling us more about Brienne's past, so he is important in helping us map out her overall character development. Of course, whether or not this is worth it depends on her role in the story and how poignant her past experiences are for her overall arc.

- Finally, her kills are symbolically important. She kills some remnants of the Brave Companions, two of which had helped capture her and Jaime, and at the end she kills the two monsters Arya unleashed upon the Riverlands. Whether or not this will pay off further in the future, from the reader's perspective it's still a resolution of sorts. She didn't find the girls, but she did help Arya in a sense by fixing one of her mistakes - if there was any secret tab running with the Many Faced God for the lives lost due to Arya saving Rorge and Biter, that has now stopped thanks to Brienne.

[argonak]

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Soldiers absolutely will matter in the end. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

If you think Daenerys is going to arrive and everyone is just going to bow down to her and let her sit the Iron Throne, then why has she spent so much time acquiring wealth, armies and actual real-life experience? No, man, there's clearly going to be a fight; a fight between her and the people of the Seven Kingdoms. Who's she going to pit the Unsullied and Dothraki against?

Small children with broomsticks?

 

I was referring to the Others.  I think fighting the Others with soldiers isn't a winning proposition, every man you lose becomes another wight, and wights have been shown to be pretty hard to kill.  But I could be wrong, its up to GRRM after all.

[argonak]

56 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

The realm - at large - won't realize the threat that Euron Greyjoy and the Ironborn loyal to him are going to pose until it's too late.

A few characters know that Euron is baaaaaad news but the characters who do know don't know how exactly bad Euron will be. And, more importantly, nobody is listening to them.

The Ironborn are the sleeper threat.

Nobody who wasn't northern cared when they reaved and raided the North. Instead of dealing with the problem that is Balon Greyjoy (this isn't just Cersei's fault, it's Tywin and Tyrion's fault too), the Iron Throne let the problem fester to the point where they now have to juggle the Ironborn terrorizing the #1 breadbasket/fruitbasket of the country with another invasion just south of them in the Stormlands, the arrival of winter and a religious revolution in their own backyard.

Aegon doesn't have the time and resources to fight the Ironborn until after he takes the Iron Throne. And when that happens, he's likely (or rather his Small Council is likely) to, once again, sleep on the Ironborn to concentrate on what's happening in his own backyard: namely the Faith Militant and Daenerys Targaryen.

Daenerys Targaryen is likely to find out early on from Moqorro and Victarion that Euron is probably the worst thing since cheap dance-pop. But she's just as likely to get distracted by the Others, the Targaryen-Martell regime and Tyrion's personal vendettas.

If we get a Riverlands-style travelogue in the Reach, it'll likely be from Samwell. Narratively speaking, he has to go back to Horn Hill and have some words with his father. He probably can't do that until the Citadel falls, Euron Greyjoy sacks Oldtown and (maybe) the Hightower family bites the dust.

the problem with the ironborn is that its really hard to take them as a serious threat, if you're looking at what people say about them, rather than what they accomplish.  Their islands are extremely small and we are repeatedly told they're poor in resources and manpower.  Sure they can rave and reave some other poor low population country like the North, or they can raid a few coastal settlements, but they simply don't have the manpower (by any raitonal analysis) to be a real credible threat to the majors of the seven kingdoms, except if the author simply makes them be.  They're like the fricking orkney islands trying to invade england.  Even if you assume that every man in the iron islands is a soldier, accept that they have enough ships to get them all places and don't care that home society will fall apart with 100% male mobilization rate, they're still a flea speck next to the rest of southern westeros.  

 

Now if GRRM wants them to be a sleeper threat who magically has enourmous numbers of well armed and equiped men and ships and are able to sail all over westeros looting and pillaging, then thats what happens in the plot, but I gotta call BS on it if they're going to be what we see on the map.  

[The Coconut God]

4 minutes ago, argonak said:

the problem with the ironborn is that its really hard to take them as a serious threat, if you're looking at what people say about them, rather than what they accomplish.  Their islands are extremely small and we are repeatedly told they're poor in resources and manpower.  Sure they can rave and reave some other poor low population country like the North, or they can raid a few coastal settlements, but they simply don't have the manpower (by any raitonal analysis) to be a real credible threat to the majors of the seven kingdoms, except if the author simply makes them be.  They're like the fricking orkney islands trying to invade england.  Even if you assume that every man in the iron islands is a soldier, accept that they have enough ships to get them all places and don't care that home society will fall apart with 100% male mobilization rate, they're still a flea speck next to the rest of southern westeros.  The bloody Arbor is larger than the iron islands on the map.

 

Now if GRRM wants them to be a sleeper threat who magically has enourmous numbers of well armed and equiped men and ships and are able to sail all over westeros looting and pillaging, then thats what happens in the plot, but I gotta call BS on it if they're going to be what we see on the map.  

This is why I say the Ironborn won't really become a major player until the Others crush Westeros to dust. Euron is never going to be a serious threat on land, but once you board your family and all you have on the first vessel you can find and you set sail towards Essos because you're desperate to escape the cold and the dead, the reavers who control the Narrow Sea will be kings.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

48 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Others have said similar things, but it feels like a rationalization to me, like readers who can't admit that the author is so lost that he leaves the title, when the story in that book never reaches the title event(s).  So we will have to disagree.

Well, you tend to have a negative attitude on this subject, but I'll wait for the payoff (if ever) to make my final judgment. The dance is a political one, so therefore more subtle and boring in a high adventure story. Let's face it, A Feast For Dragons With A Crows Dance is GRRM's "The Phantom Menace". It would seem to be important and necessary to the overall storyline, but nobody likes it much. I guess that makes Areo Hotah the Jar Jar Binks of this mess.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

1 hour ago, The Coconut God said:

I have to agree with @Jabar of House Titan here in that this is a consequence of George's writing style. and it's not really something that becomes more prevalent in Feast and Dance. There are plenty of situations in the earlier books when this happens, not just with Arya, but with Cat, Sansa, Bran and Sam as well. Hell, Davos was created specifically for this reason. But we don't feel it as strongly because:

A. Most of these characters were there from the start (or from the second book at the latest) so we perceive them as "valid" protagonists.

B. Overall they tell a complete story, that of the War of the Five Kings, so at the end we can put most of the pieces together.

What I like most about these books is precisely the depth created by the puzzle-like nature of this style. I like that I can go back over a volume and discover an important plot point hidden in the corner of a character's eye which I had previously ignored because the character's driving motivation in that particular chapter was something completely different. And I don't think you can have both. If you get the story up-front, that kills the puzzle.

What you are saying is just a bare minimum of information (and I don't even think Dany's dream was really a vision of the Trident). This isn't so much about informing the readers about what's going to happen next, it's about preparing them with enough information so that when something happens they have enough background knowledge and emotional investment to allow you to go all in on the action without trying to explain the setting as it happens. George isn't above drilling things into our heads repeatedly when he wants us to know something prior to a scene (e.g. the importance of guest rights prior to the Red Wedding).

Just like we were deeply invested in Robb's campaign without even seeing Robb for most of its duration, George might not want to show us in great detail what happens in the Riverlands once the Others arrive. We'll get raven messages and third party stories from the refugees pouring in King's Landing or in the Vale, we might even have a PoV on the ground for a chapter or two, but the rest of it we'll likely have to infer by combining these tidbits with the prior information from Brienne's chapters.

Why do it like that? For one, it's not going to be the only place that is overrun - almost by default, the North will be overrun before the Riverlands - and he can't show every single location being invaded by zombies, it would get monotonous. Second, much like Hardhome, but on a grander scale, it would be a lot more ominous if you didn't have a PoV there. It would truly give you a sense that this place is lost beyond recovery, there's no going there anymore.

Of course, we'll have to see if this was really the point of Brienne's chapters - and if it was, how well it works. All I'm saying is that criticism may be misguided at this point.

I disagree that the characters Brienne encounters are necessarily irrelevant. I stand by what I said before: it all hinges on where her story is headed, and to a lesser degree on how that information plays out in future plot lines.

- Let's say Brienne becomes the leader of the BwB after the death of LSH. In that context, Nimble Dick and Septon Meribald would have been important for her ability to relate to and understand the twisted morality of the broken men she will be commanding. It would allow her to empathize with them, forgive them and care about "saving" them in the first place.

- Septon Meribald and the villagers we see earlier along the way give a heart to the Riverlands so that we know exactly what will be lost once the Others invade without George explicitly showing us. Specific encounters, such as the barricaded castles she passes by with Nimble Dick also show the lack of organization and communication in the area in a way that Jaime, who is at the head of an army and is trying to deal with the most fortified great castles, couldn't have shown us.

- Illifer's chapter is probably less about Illifer and more about setting up the Mad Mouse, who appears again in the Alayne sample character and will probably play some role there. Starting out with Illifer was probably a sleight of hand meant to obscure his character until a later re-read (more knights means you're less likely to remember them individually). It also makes more sense that Brienne would accept to walk with Illifer than the Mad Mouse directly, since the latter was a shadier character.

- The Hound cameo may just be about the Hound, he is important enough to warrant it.

- Hyle Hunt is telling us more about Brienne's past, so he is important in helping us map out her overall character development. Of course, whether or not this is worth it depends on her role in the story and how poignant her past experiences are for her overall arc.

- Finally, her kills are symbolically important. She kills some remnants of the Brave Companions, two of which had helped capture her and Jaime, and at the end she kills the two monsters Arya unleashed upon the Riverlands. Whether or not this will pay off further in the future, from the reader's perspective it's still a resolution of sorts. She didn't find the girls, but she did help Arya in a sense by fixing one of her mistakes - if there was any secret tab running with the Many Faced God for the lives lost due to Arya saving Rorge and Biter, that has now stopped thanks to Brienne.

You still don't get it. The argument isn't that the Brienne story is worthless in of itself, the issue is that it didn't need to be in *this* book at *this* time.

GRRM is a good enough writer I'm sure he could have written 10 chapters on the life of Septon Merribald and made is thematically interesting. But that's not this story. That's a side story he could write later.  He's interrupting the momentum of the main plot with these detours, when (and if) he gets done with the main series, if he wants to work on these side stories about  Brienne, about Quentyn, about whomever, I'd gladly read them.   But I dislike the fact he's doing it now and delaying pushing the main plot of the story forward.   

 

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, argonak said:

the problem with the ironborn is that its really hard to take them as a serious threat, if you're looking at what people say about them, rather than what they accomplish.  Their islands are extremely small and we are repeatedly told they're poor in resources and manpower.  Sure they can rave and reave some other poor low population country like the North, or they can raid a few coastal settlements, but they simply don't have the manpower (by any raitonal analysis) to be a real credible threat to the majors of the seven kingdoms, except if the author simply makes them be.  They're like the fricking orkney islands trying to invade england.  Even if you assume that every man in the iron islands is a soldier, accept that they have enough ships to get them all places and don't care that home society will fall apart with 100% male mobilization rate, they're still a flea speck next to the rest of southern westeros.  

Now if GRRM wants them to be a sleeper threat who magically has enourmous numbers of well armed and equiped men and ships and are able to sail all over westeros looting and pillaging, then thats what happens in the plot, but I gotta call BS on it if they're going to be what we see on the map.  

What people say or think about think a person ≠ what said person actually accomplishes

The Ironborn are a massive destabilizing force. At least, for all of her destabilization her campaign in Slaver's Bay has wrought, Daenerys Targaryen has the purest of intentions; unfortunately, she's very clumsy and inexperience.

The Ironborn are, however, terrorists.

The fact that the lords and knights of the Seven Kingdoms do not pay attention to them just speaks to how unfit said lords and the feudalism system. The highborn of Westeros are seldom jeopardized by Ironborn raids but the lowborn? Ugh.

One of the five times I have ever nodded in agreement with Cersei is when she said that Robert was far too lenient to the Ironborn at the end of the Greyjoy Rebellion. If his life had to be spared, Balon should have lost his lordship status as Lord Paramount and a nice fraction of his lands and incomes. And why were both Victarion and Euron allowed to live?

The Ironborn have not suffered any real major losses in the War of the Five Kings. Unlike the Lannisters, they are still very fresh. Currently, they are robbing the Reach of the foodstuffs and wealth that the Reachmen would need to survive winter. They are also effectively blockading Oldtown, the second-most important city in Westeros, and have complete control of the mouth of the Mander River.

With a leader like Euron, they are very, very dangerous. Except the movers and shakers in Westeros don't know it yet because they are so preoccupied with their outdated perception of the Ironborn. The Lannisters and the Baratheons neglected the North in its time of need because the North was allied with an enemy of theirs and the Iron Islands are of no consequence to them; the Lannisters neglected the Reach in its time of need because the Reach is allied with the Tyrells, an "enemy" of theirs and the Iron Islands are of no real consequence; Aegon, the Golden Company and - soon - the Martells are likely going to neglect the Reach some more because it is allied with the current holders of the Iron Throne, enemies of theirs.

See the trend?

If you add the riches of, say, I don't know, Casterly Rock to the Ironborn machine, then the Ironborn under Euron's leadership becomes that much more dangerous.

[The Coconut God]

30 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

You still don't get it. The argument isn't that the Brienne story is worthless in of itself, the issue is that it didn't need to be in *this* book at *this* time.

GRRM is a good enough writer I'm sure he could have written 10 chapters on the life of Septon Merribald and made is thematically interesting. But that's not this story. That's a side story he could write later.  He's interrupting the momentum of the main plot with these detours, when (and if) he gets done with the main series, if he wants to work on these side stories about  Brienne, about Quentyn, about whomever, I'd gladly read them.   But I dislike the fact he's doing it now and delaying pushing the main plot of the story forward.   

With respect, you're the one who "doesn't get it". My whole point was that we don't know yet what the "main plot" will be, so we can't tell whether all this is important set-up or just filler. We need to wait for Winds to find out for sure. And yet you act like you already know they're side stories.

[BlackLightning]

19 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

You still don't get it. The argument isn't that the Brienne story is worthless in of itself, the issue is that it didn't need to be in *this* book at *this* time.

GRRM is a good enough writer I'm sure he could have written 10 chapters on the life of Septon Merribald and made is thematically interesting. But that's not this story. That's a side story he could write later.  He's interrupting the momentum of the main plot with these detours, when (and if) he gets done with the main series, if he wants to work on these side stories about  Brienne, about Quentyn, about whomever, I'd gladly read them.   But I dislike the fact he's doing it now and delaying pushing the main plot of the story forward.   

 

What is the main plot of the story?! There is no main plot of the story.

The story has three - maybe four, depending how you view the plight of the Stark kids - main plots. As in more than one.

Sure, the Brienne story in Feast is too long. It can be whittled down from eight chapters to five. But it needed to happen. Because if you view the plight of the Stark kids as one of the three/four main plots, then someone has to go out, look for them and try to reunite them under his/her protection.

I don't know the relevance of Quentyn's travels in Lys and his relationship with the Tattered Prince but I absolutely believe that it will be important. It already is important considering that Arianne is leery of Daenerys because she already thinks Daenerys let her husband kill her brother only to turn around and let her husband die. She doesn't know how to feel about Quentyn outranking her as a king. So she also doesn't know if she wants Quentyn to succeed.

When she finds out that Quentyn was killed by dragonfire and that Daenerys is coming to Westeros after all, Arianne's mind is going to interpret that as: "oh crap, she's coming here to kill us all." And that's not even taking in account that Arianne is likely to hear what Daenerys is going to do to the slavers and say "yikes, this woman is dangerous."

[Cas Stark]

6 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

What is the main plot of the story?! There is no main plot of the story.

The story has three - maybe four, depending how you view the plight of the Stark kids - main plots. As in more than one.

Sure, the Brienne story in Feast is too long. It can be whittled down from eight chapters to five. But it needed to happen. Because if you view the plight of the Stark kids as one of the three/four main plots, then someone has to go out, look for them and try to reunite them under his/her protection.

I don't know the relevance of Quentyn's travels in Lys and his relationship with the Tattered Prince but I absolutely believe that it will be important. It already is important considering that Arianne is leery of Daenerys because she already thinks Daenerys let her husband kill her brother only to turn around and let her husband die. She doesn't know how to feel about Quentyn outranking her as a king. So she also doesn't know if she wants Quentyn to succeed.

When she finds out that Quentyn was killed by dragonfire and that Daenerys is coming to Westeros after all, Arianne's mind is going to interpret that as: "oh crap, she's coming here to kill us all." And that's not even taking in account that Arianne is likely to hear what Daenerys is going to do to the slavers and say "yikes, this woman is dangerous."

Main Story:  1)Starks, , 1)Targaryen,  1a) Lannisters, to a slightly lesser degree.

*We didn't need a single Quentyn chapter, we could have learned all of that from Selmy, Dany and Arienne.  

*I'm not sure we needed any Brienne chapters either, but if we did, let's whittle them down to 2.  

But I maintain a better editing job and the author who was willing, we could have had A Feast of Dancing Crows as a single book, minus most if not all of Brienne's chapters, minus all of Quentyn, minus Arys, minus Victarion, about half of the chapters for Dany and Jon and Tyrion, which would have allowed both main battles to happen.  That would have been a good book, but since the author lost control, that isn't the book he wrote and here we are, staring down 2019 as the earliest possible date for the next book, which may or may not resolve anything with the pacing.

 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Aegon doesn't have the time and resources to fight the Ironborn until after he takes the Iron Throne. And when that happens, he's likely (or rather his Small Council is likely) to, once again, sleep on the Ironborn to concentrate on what's happening in his own backyard: namely the Faith Militant and Daenerys Targaryen.

...

If we get a Riverlands-style travelogue in the Reach, it'll likely be from Samwell. Narratively speaking, he has to go back to Horn Hill and have some words with his father. He probably can't do that until the Citadel falls, Euron Greyjoy sacks Oldtown and (maybe) the Hightower family bites the dust.

We really can't tell what Euron is going to do. All we know is that it will be different from past Ironborn incursions. Aegon and the Ironborn may just take care of one another through treachery or happenstance. Cersi for treachery and inflated egos for happenstance. It would tie up two loose ends in a believable, if not satisfying, way. What would be mildly satisfying is if the two invaders meet and Euron and Aegon go at it and manage to kill each other off. Then the sellswords can go to the IT and the Ironborn go home or are wiped out for a good, long time.

...

I don't know if Sam has time to muck about in the Reach/Stormlands (plot time-wise; we only have two books to go) and isn't his father still in Maidenpool? That would make a reunion pretty hard.

[argonak]

3 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

What people say or think about think a person ≠ what said person actually accomplishes

The Ironborn are a massive destabilizing force. At least, for all of her destabilization her campaign in Slaver's Bay has wrought, Daenerys Targaryen has the purest of intentions; unfortunately, she's very clumsy and inexperience.

The Ironborn are, however, terrorists.

The fact that the lords and knights of the Seven Kingdoms do not pay attention to them just speaks to how unfit said lords and the feudalism system. The highborn of Westeros are seldom jeopardized by Ironborn raids but the lowborn? Ugh.

One of the five times I have ever nodded in agreement with Cersei is when she said that Robert was far too lenient to the Ironborn at the end of the Greyjoy Rebellion. If his life had to be spared, Balon should have lost his lordship status as Lord Paramount and a nice fraction of his lands and incomes. And why were both Victarion and Euron allowed to live?

The Ironborn have not suffered any real major losses in the War of the Five Kings. Unlike the Lannisters, they are still very fresh. Currently, they are robbing the Reach of the foodstuffs and wealth that the Reachmen would need to survive winter. They are also effectively blockading Oldtown, the second-most important city in Westeros, and have complete control of the mouth of the Mander River.

With a leader like Euron, they are very, very dangerous. Except the movers and shakers in Westeros don't know it yet because they are so preoccupied with their outdated perception of the Ironborn. The Lannisters and the Baratheons neglected the North in its time of need because the North was allied with an enemy of theirs and the Iron Islands are of no consequence to them; the Lannisters neglected the Reach in its time of need because the Reach is allied with the Tyrells, an "enemy" of theirs and the Iron Islands are of no real consequence; Aegon, the Golden Company and - soon - the Martells are likely going to neglect the Reach some more because it is allied with the current holders of the Iron Throne, enemies of theirs.

See the trend?

If you add the riches of, say, I don't know, Casterly Rock to the Ironborn machine, then the Ironborn under Euron's leadership becomes that much more dangerous.

I just still can't handle the ironborn as a credible threat.  They shouldn't have the population or the resources to take on any major power given their size and apparent wealth.  I get that its author fiat that they should be, but it just doesn't make any sense to me.  

It'd be like if at the end of Return of the King,  the Thain marches an army of Hobbits from the shire to mordor, and defeats Sauron in battle.  Nothing we are otherwise told of the Shire would imply they have the manpower or resources to craft an army.  That's the problem I have with it.  Instead we get a small force of Dunedain who show up and join Aragorn, which accurately reflects what we've been told whats left of Arnor.   

It kicks me out of the story when I'm reading things that seem to break the rules of the universe.  if the Iron islands were three times their current size, then I could accept it.  Or maybe if it was literally ireland, a green, heavily populated land sitting a ways off Lannisport.   But the iron islands are tiny, and we're repeatedly told they're just poor and lightly populated.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

6 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

What is the main plot of the story?! There is no main plot of the story.

 

Really, after 5000+ pages you don't know the main plot of the story, and claim there isn't one?  That either says something about Martin as an author or you as a reader, maybe both.

[Rhodan]

5 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Really, after 5000+ pages you don't know the main plot of the story, and claim there isn't one?  That either says something about Martin as an author or you as a reader, maybe both.

The thing is, Martin was obviously very proud of his technique to tell the story trough the characters themselves, even if there are larger plots. OTOH, that can be used to justify virtually any delaying of the plot. In a way, I sorta pity him. He obviously still knows how to write the lore and worldbuilding, as is obvious from  Fire and blood and such stuff and he is still able to pull off excellent characterization and themes... But he mostly forgot how to tell typical effective narration, as evident by his remarks about characters going into dead ends.   

[The Coconut God]

12 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Main Story:  1)Starks, , 1)Targaryen,  1a) Lannisters, to a slightly lesser degree.

Wrong. You fail to differentiate between story and characters.

The main story of the first three volumes is the War of the Five Kings, a major political and military conflict that engulfs Westeros after King Robert's death. This is primarily told from the perspective of the Starks, Lannisters and Baratheons because they are the main participants in this conflict. In parallel, we are told the stories of Jon and Dany, which don't connect to this conflict directly, but presumably will collide later into a larger plot, for which the War of the Five Kings merely serves as set-up.

This larger plot is the main story of the series, but we don't know exactly what it is yet. We know that all the major threads, Jon & the Others, Dany & her dragons and the destabilized Westeros must merge into the same story, but we don't know what form that will take. Will we be rooting for Dany to conquer Westeros? Will she be an antagonist? Will the Others play a major or a minor role? Is Aegon a major player or is he just a minor foil for Cersei or the Martells? Same question for Euron and Dany. Will Westeros survive or is this a story of its fall? Is the plot line on Essos more important than we thought? Will Jon fight for the North or will he take his part of the story in a different direction once the Others invade?

There is nothing bad or unusual in the Greyjoys and the Martells entering the story at this point. We finished an arc and stepped into a larger one. It's completely believable that some geopolitical actors will wait for a conflict to progress further or end before they play their hand. It's like reading a story about WWII and saying "I thought this was about the British, the Germans and the French, why do I have to read stuff about Russia, Japan and the USA?!?!".

[BlackLightning]

12 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

18 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

What is the main plot of the story?! There is no main plot of the story.

The story has three - maybe four, depending how you view the plight of the Stark kids - main plots. As in more than one.

Sure, the Brienne story in Feast is too long. It can be whittled down from eight chapters to five. But it needed to happen. Because if you view the plight of the Stark kids as one of the three/four main plots, then someone has to go out, look for them and try to reunite them under his/her protection.

I don't know the relevance of Quentyn's travels in Lys and his relationship with the Tattered Prince but I absolutely believe that it will be important. It already is important considering that Arianne is leery of Daenerys because she already thinks Daenerys let her husband kill her brother only to turn around and let her husband die. She doesn't know how to feel about Quentyn outranking her as a king. So she also doesn't know if she wants Quentyn to succeed.

When she finds out that Quentyn was killed by dragonfire and that Daenerys is coming to Westeros after all, Arianne's mind is going to interpret that as: "oh crap, she's coming here to kill us all." And that's not even taking in account that Arianne is likely to hear what Daenerys is going to do to the slavers and say "yikes, this woman is dangerous."

Really, after 5000+ pages you don't know the main plot of the story, and claim there isn't one?  That either says something about Martin as an author or you as a reader, maybe both.

LOL WUT

Did you read all of my post.

The story has three (or four, if you want to add in the coming-of-age story of the Stark kids) main plots. Three plots ≠ one plot

Eventually, it will hopefully converge back into one main plot but we have had three main plots since the tenth chapter (eleventh, if you count the prologue) of A Game of Thrones. I believe that was within the first hundred pages.