What do you think caused Martin to loose his grip on the material?

[Ninefingers]

I'm a long time lurker, infrequent commenter to this board, and I'd just like to add a few thoughts in no particular order:

 

1. I'm really happy to see a thread like this be allowed to exist. As a more casual fan, it's nice to have a place to find links to the latest bits of info and the speculation that comes along with it. Hopefully the civil tone continues and these sorts of threads can be a regular thing.

2. I think the calls for 'George to reexamine his style' or 'do things differently', while they come from a place of love, are misplaced. He's been doing this a long time, and is one of the most successful authors ever published.  It seems unlikely at best that he would want or be willing to change. 

3. I think that most of the speculation that he works less hard on ASOIAF than he used to due to the crowding out of other things is probably correct, and definitely OK. I know that if I suddenly became rich and famous, and had all of the opportunities that he has, I'd be availing myself of more than a couple. It's OK. He's earned it. 

[Quaithe from Asshai]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

It is a literal cabin in the mountains.

Wait. What happened to the DOS computer that he cannot work without?

Strange! I thought he does not like laptops!

Now I'm more hopeful that winds is coming.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Quaithe from Asshai said:

Wait. What happened to the DOS computer that he cannot work without?

I think he brought said computer with him.

[Quaithe from Asshai]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think he brought said computer with him.

I hope the cabin helps him finish.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think he brought said computer with him.

 

How many wights with giant frozen chains did it take to drag up there?

[Cas Stark]

The most hopeful way to read it, is that Fire and Blood has re energized him to get back to work on Winds of Winter, and that he has created a space that minimizes distractions in order to do so.  It still seems based on this same rounds of interviews that Winds is years away, since he said that deciding what to do after Winds was too far in the future for him to consider, which suggests it's not coming out in 2019.

[YouKnowNothingJonSnow]

8 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

On the other hand, it could mean that he'll be forced to split TWoW in two books, which his publishers have urged him to do. Which is not a good sign.

I get where yoy are coming from here, considering Feast/Dance, but I will maintain it is a GOOD thing.

1) I would prefer Feast/Dance part deux to years more of nothing as GRRM tries to do the impossible and finish this in 2 books. I think the story would be streamlined too quickly and would feel like a hatchet job. Or we'd get nothing.

2) Hopefully they do it better than last time.

A) Do not cut main characters entirely out of WoW1, especially Dany, Tyrion, & Jon. Cut back on some if you must (Sam, Theon, Sansa, Davos, Bran, Arya, Jaime, Brienne, Asha, Arrianne), but keep the ball rolling forward.

2)  Try to integrate the timelines better. No more book 2 happening before book 1.

3) FFS, give us some conclusion to the main arcs. No waiting for TWO books so you can supposedly complete all the arcs & then have a bunch of cliffhangers. In both books. That was awful. 

Complete the main ones, whichever they are for Winds (Dany, Winterfell, Wall, Jon/Con, Cersei?). Stop most of the others short of tune in next week territory. 1-2 cliffs at most. Or none. Fine with Kevan's killing type stuff.

 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

7 hours ago, YouKnowNothingJonSnow said:

1) I would prefer Feast/Dance part deux to years more of nothing as GRRM tries to do the impossible and finish this in 2 books. I think the story would be streamlined too quickly and would feel like a hatchet job. Or we'd get nothing.

 

I am of the belief that a good part of the problem is that GRRM doesn't have a good stopping point for all his POVs again, yet he is determined not to do another Feast/Dance chop. Sometimes stubbornness can halt all work just as well as an actual literary problem, especially if a solution is not quick in forthcoming.

 

7 hours ago, YouKnowNothingJonSnow said:

2) Hopefully they do it better than last time.

 

Practically anything would be better than last time.

 

7 hours ago, YouKnowNothingJonSnow said:

A) Do not cut main characters entirely out of WoW1, especially Dany, Tyrion, & Jon. Cut back on some if you must (Sam, Theon, Sansa, Davos, Bran, Arya, Jaime, Brienne, Asha, Arrianne), but keep the ball rolling forward.

 

This goes back to my first response. He may be trying to do that and the solution is still eluding him. Sequestering himself away may be his nuclear solution to that issue.

 

7 hours ago, YouKnowNothingJonSnow said:

2)  Try to integrate the timelines better. No more book 2 happening before book 1.

 

Can you elaborate? When was ADwD happening before AFfC? If you mean the split storyline/timeline, well then, that was the problem in the first place or they would have just continued the story in two books instead of them coexisting in the same space.

 

7 hours ago, YouKnowNothingJonSnow said:

3) FFS, give us some conclusion to the main arcs. No waiting for TWO books so you can supposedly complete all the arcs & then have a bunch of cliffhangers. In both books. That was awful. 

Complete the main ones, whichever they are for Winds (Dany, Winterfell, Wall, Jon/Con, Cersei?). Stop most of the others short of tune in next week territory. 1-2 cliffs at most. Or none. Fine with Kevan's killing type stuff.

 

I believe that GRRM would settle for that, even if it meant writing more than seven books. Again, I think the major problem stems from the fact that he doesn't have a good place to stop for all twenty or so POVs he has to juggle. Even if some of our protagonists are killed or chopped out of the POV club (say five or so), that's still a lot to handle and tie it all up in a semi pretty bow.

[Lady Rhodes]

I have been doing a lot of thinking about what could have caused the delay (not necessarily losing grip, but a delay in writing.)  I think I came up with a possible reason, based on a few things he has said, some deductive and inductive reasoning, and a couple of assumptions.  I try to avoid talking about the show on book forums, but part of my reasoning involves the show, so I will only briefly allude to it.

The Meereenese Knot is STILL a problem
Yes, it delayed Dance.  I went back and read the Dance of Dragons Not a Blog posts, and Martin frequently mentions that the Meereenese Knot was a big problem.  We all know this - this is not new information.  Things Martin has mentioned as contributing to the Meereenese Knot are: POV issues, and timeline/causation/arrival issues.  By adding Barristan, the POV issues were presumably solved.

But out of all the people arriving to see Dany, ONLY QUENTYN ARRIVED.   There are still people trying to get there.

Now, we know that he wrote three versions of Quentyn's arrival - Way before the wedding, the day before the wedding, and after the wedding.  That is a lot of writing and rewriting, for each scenario he chose.  That isn't just a couple of chapters.  He presumably wrote Quentyn arriving before the wedding, some Dany chapters following, possibly a Barristan, only to discover he did not like it, so not only does he have to scrap one chapter, but restructure entire sections.  That is a lot of rewriting.  And that is only for the character that we are aware of having arrived.

How many times did he rewrite Victarion? Tyrion? Marwyn?

I suspect that he had a variety of options for each of those characters.  But the chief issue, I think, is Tyrion.

This is where it gets into possible show spoiler, so I am going to hide it and you can click to reveal.

Spoiler

Whether you like the show or not, it does not matter.  Martin is an executive producer, so while he may not be involved in day-to-day decision making and story running, he certainly has input that he can provide.  I suspect that when Dan and Dave abridged the Feast/Dance story by omitting Griff, Young Griff, and Moqorro, they edited a previous version of Tyrion's storyline.  With the exception of those three (which, I grant you, are large) and Penny, Tyrion's storyline isn't too different - He is traveling to Daenerys, he is captured by Jorah, they are then captured by slavers.  The broad strokes are the same.  I suspect that there is a version that Martin wrote that involved Tyrion reaching Meereen before Drogon returning at the fighting pits and Daenerys leaving.

My guess is that Martin cut it for a few reasons: he thought Tyrion could provide too much information too fast, he did not like Daenerys meeting Quentyn and then meeting Tyrion (or vice versa) in too quick succession, he didn't like Tyrion meeting Griff and Young Griff, Jorah, Moqorro, Dany and Quentyn in too quick succession (I am leaning more towards this possibility, because when framed this way, that is a LOT of people for Tyrion to encounter in a relatively short span of time.)   All valid reasons, and possibly some others that I haven't thought of. But...

During his Livejournal post at the beginning of January 2016, where he says that Winds would not be out in time for season 6, he talks about how he met with his editors and they had worked up a timeline, but he doesn't like deadlines and he grew unhappy with some choices that he made.  I am guessing that ventures not only to Winds, but a choice he made in Dance, which now cannot be fixed. I think when the show aired in 2015 and he saw how Dany and Tyrion meeting unfolded, he regretted his choice, and grew depressed.  For all the shows flaws, having Tyrion show up in Meereen and meeting Dany prior to her fleeing the fighting pit offers a lot of benefits: 1) they have established a tentative impression of one another; 2) Tyrion, I presume, can facilitate a cordial relationship with Barristan, and can show Dany his worth by governing and bringing peace to Meereen while she is away.  It keeps them in each other's arcs even if they are not together. 

You don't have to like the shows choices and I am not saying that the events would transpire in the same way (Tyrion governing in the same way, etc.) but I am guessing that writing became delayed because he grew depressed at his choice to not have Tyrion arrive sooner in Meereen.

Like getting a knot out of a necklace, I think Martin thought he had The Meereenese Knot figured out, only to realize the knot was indeed still there.  (But can you blame him for resisting to say that out loud!?)

[Cas Stark]

I have to say, unless the crackpot idea that Quentyn Martell is still alive is true, I literally cannot fathom why he would have rewritten that chapter, especially since it's a POV that we never needed in the first place, we already had Dany and Selmy.  And the same goes for the Meereen knot, that this fairly unimportant set of actions, since everyone is eventually going back to Westeros, so everything that happens in Meereen is a tangent, would have caused such a massive delay, rewriting and headache for the author is all the proof needed that he can no longer see the forest for the trees.  He's stuck in the weeds and can't differentiate between important story strands and ancillary ones.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

Hindsight being 20/20, I just realized what a lost opportunity there was if GRRM had been more format oriented and less gardening oriented. Not that I'm really complaining since I really like his writing in any case.

However, GRRM started out wanting to write a trilogy that expanded into five and then seven books. Let's say that he had decided to write seven books from the beginning. With the constructs of having seven kingdoms and a religion set with seven gods he could have had used each book to move the series forward with the POVs coming from characters in one of the seven kingdoms, i.e. one book set in the North, one in the Vale, one in Dorne etc. (something might have actually happened in Dorne!). Dany's Essos chapters could be interspersed throughout the seven books to keep a single thread for the story to piggyback on while she makes her way home.

Additionally, each book could have a theme or tone related to one of the seven gods; warrior, crone, maiden etc. to bring the saga to a rousing climax (with the Stranger being defeated in the last book no doubt).

[Lady Rhodes]

38 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I have to say, unless the crackpot idea that Quentyn Martell is still alive is true, I literally cannot fathom why he would have rewritten that chapter, especially since it's a POV that we never needed in the first place, we already had Dany and Selmy.  And the same goes for the Meereen knot, that this fairly unimportant set of actions, since everyone is eventually going back to Westeros, so everything that happens in Meereen is a tangent, would have caused such a massive delay, rewriting and headache for the author is all the proof needed that he can no longer see the forest for the trees.  He's stuck in the weeds and can't differentiate between important story strands and ancillary ones.

With respect, I could not disagree more.

While, yes, everyone will presumably be going back to Westeros, there are huge implications due to the order in which Daenerys meets her visitors.  Consider:
 There is a strong bias against the ironborn from mainland Westerosi and how and when Victarion arrives is going to heavily impact his reception there.
Moqorro and R'hllor are going to be met with a different reception than, say, Marwyn of the Citadel.

Now, perhaps I have misunderstood you and you are saying that it does not matter because the whole Meereen plot is pointless.  Again, I disagree.  The Meereen plot, I feel, is to complement the Wall plot.  That is - Jon and Dany are learning to rule, to command, to guide.  There may be little Iron Throne/Others stuff going on, but there is extremely important emotional changes going on in the characters that can only be brought on by something like this.  I would compare it to the Jaime and Brienne Riverlands arc in Storm. It seemed like a lot of pointless bickering and walking until you see how deeply it has changed Jaime.

He may be stuck in a garden, but I don't think it is a garden of weeds.

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, Lady Rhodes said:

With respect, I could not disagree more.

While, yes, everyone will presumably be going back to Westeros, there are huge implications due to the order in which Daenerys meets her visitors.  Consider:
 There is a strong bias against the ironborn from mainland Westerosi and how and when Victarion arrives is going to heavily impact his reception there.
Moqorro and R'hllor are going to be met with a different reception than, say, Marwyn of the Citadel.

Now, perhaps I have misunderstood you and you are saying that it does not matter because the whole Meereen plot is pointless.  Again, I disagree.  The Meereen plot, I feel, is to complement the Wall plot.  That is - Jon and Dany are learning to rule, to command, to guide.  There may be little Iron Throne/Others stuff going on, but there is extremely important emotional changes going on in the characters that can only be brought on by something like this.  I would compare it to the Jaime and Brienne Riverlands arc in Storm. It seemed like a lot of pointless bickering and walking until you see how deeply it has changed Jaime.

He may be stuck in a garden, but I don't think it is a garden of weeds.

We just disagree.  There was already too much Meereen, too many chapters that were overly long and repetitive, and it's almost certain that Dany will take Victarian's navy, so who cares when he arrives, or what his reception is? The end result is that she will take his ships, with or without his agreement.  I don't see it.  All of it is secondary.  We could very, very easily have had half the chapters of Tyrion/Dany/Arya in Essos with no loss.  The Meereen plot isn't 'pointless' but it's secondary, it is absolutely not important enough that the author rewrote it numerous times and somehow tied himself up in the weeds of these details that are not relevant to the overall story. And for that matter, same goes for Jon's chapters in Dance, easily cut by at least a third with no loss.  This would have freed the author from getting stuck in these needless details and freed the story to move forward at a reasonable pace.  

[Lady Rhodes]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

We just disagree.  There was already too much Meereen, too many chapters that were overly long and repetitive, and it's almost certain that Dany will take Victarian's navy, so who cares when he arrives, or what his reception is? The end result is that she will take his ships, with or without his agreement.  I don't see it.  All of it is secondary.  We could very, very easily have had half the chapters of Tyrion/Dany/Arya in Essos with no loss.  The Meereen plot isn't 'pointless' but it's secondary, it is absolutely not important enough that the author rewrote it numerous times and somehow tied himself up in the weeds of these details that are not relevant to the overall story. And for that matter, same goes for Jon's chapters in Dance, easily cut by at least a third with no loss.  This would have freed the author from getting stuck in these needless details and freed the story to move forward at a reasonable pace.  

Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

For what it is worth, I shared your opinion until fairly recently, when I read the Meereenese Blot study on Dany, Jon, and Tyrion.  After that, I think not only are the Dance chapters necessary, I think when all is said and done, they will be considered pivotal.

[Werthead]

22 hours ago, Quaithe from Asshai said:

Wait. What happened to the DOS computer that he cannot work without?

I believe he stopped using that after ADWD (after the close call of it almost exploding during the writing of AFFC, as noted in the acknowledgements of that book) and switched to a modern PC running WordStar on a DOS emulator. You can see it in that John Oliver video where he talks about killing several of the interviewer's favourite characters, it's clearly not a 1980s machine anymore.

On that basis either they've either moved the machine or set up a second one with the same emulator running on it.

[T and A]

Deleted

[Casso, King of the Seals]

Do we know if he went back to the cabin after the Fire & Blood event?

[Ran]

It's the week of Thanksgiving, and George has family on the east coast, so I'm not sure I'd expect him to rush back.

[Quaithe from Asshai]

8 hours ago, Ran said:

It's the week of Thanksgiving, and George has family on the east coast, so I'm not sure If expect him to rush back.

I don't know why, but I think you know something good is coming soon.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

50 minutes ago, Quaithe from Asshai said:

I don't know why, but I think you something good is coming soon.

What makes you think that? Personally, I see no reasons for optimism.