What do you think caused Martin to loose his grip on the material?

[sifth]

3 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I didn't mention reviews for ADWD at all (although they were pretty positive on release, often glossing over the book's weaker aspects). I pointed out that every time the wider fanbase has had a chance to comment on the quality of ADWD, they've unfailingly and consistently put up right up there at the top of the series. As a result, the "popular" consensus is that ADWD is one of the best book in the series. People saying, "the last two books are objectively crap", "the last two books were a letdown and everyone knows it" are therefore presenting their personal opinion and making an appeal to an authority and consensus that not only does not exist, but is constantly contradicting their views.

Fire and Blood is the 2012/13 text that both the World Book and the short stories drew upon, and absolutely everyone has made this clear consistently. The Conquest is verbatim pretty much the exact same text, and is then followed why what was previously published as Sons of the Dragon. The new material kicks in in force with the Jaehaerys section. The book is about 75% material never before published anywhere, by my back-of-napkin calculations, but even that material will have been summarised (to some extent) by Ran and Linda for the world book.

 

I'll have to take your word on the 75% stuff, because I've only been able to read a very small section of the story. I'm still wondering how any of this new stuff can be all that important, if was edited out of the World Book and all the other stories in the first place, but I suppose I'll see for myself soon enough. For the time being, I'll just treat Fire and Blood like the extended cut of a movie. Maybe I'll get a good story or maybe I'll just the extended cut of Aliens, only time will tell, lol

[T and A]

25 minutes ago, sifth said:

 

I'm currently only on page 40 of Fire and Blood and don't really notice any difference at all between the stuff I'm reading now and the stuff I read in the World book 2 years ago.

That's because it is a fleshed out WoIaF. I mean you could have informed yourself before buying it. GRRM himself has said that it is the texts from WoIaF but also including some texts that have been cut from it. Also including some new stuff. But the main point is, that it is the same stuff. What have you expected?

Also, to add something to the general discussion regarding Silmarion: 

The Silmarion has the complete history of Arda, including its creation. Fire and Blood is not even merely a chapter, compared to the Silmarion. I don't know why people bring this comparison.

[Werthead]

5 minutes ago, sifth said:

I'll have to take your word on the 75% stuff, because I've only been able to read a very small section of the story. I'm still wondering how any of this new stuff can be all that important, if was edited out of the World Book and all the other stories in the first place, but I suppose I'll see for myself soon enough. For the time being, I'll just treat Fire and Blood like the extended cut of a movie. Maybe I'll get a good story or maybe I'll just the extended cut of Aliens, only time will tell, lol

Most of it is probably not that important to casual fans, but to hardcore megafans who spend hours on the Wiki and so on (and there's far more of those than you'd suppose), it's all catnip. The world book I would submit was like the appendices to Lord of the Rings: useful, clarifying some timeline issues and providing more colour to episodes previously vague and murky. Fire and Blood is The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and half of The History of Middle-earth series, going into incredible detail of minutiae which will likely not be interesting to a broad audience but those of a more scholarly bent will find it fascinating.

Quote

 

The Silmarion has the complete history of Arda, including its creation. Fire and Blood is not even merely a chapter, compared to the Silmarion. I don't know why you bring this comparison.

 

George has compared this book to The Silmarillion about fifty times, I agree not entirely accurately, so that's more his fault as the author.

[Lady Rhodes]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

if was edited out of the World Book and all the other stories in the first place

Word Count. There was simply too much, so the World Book mainly says this king ruled from this date to this date and there was some issues with succession etc etc.  It is my understanding that F&B goes more in depth.

 

[T and A]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Most of it is probably not that important to casual fans, but to hardcore megafans who spend hours on the Wiki and so on (and there's far more of those than you'd suppose), it's all catnip. The world book I would submit was like the appendices to Lord of the Rings: useful, clarifying some timeline issues and providing more colour to episodes previously vague and murky. Fire and Blood is The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and half of The History of Middle-earth series, going into incredible detail of minutiae which will likely not be interesting to a broad audience but those of a more scholarly bent will find it fascinating.

George has compared this book to The Silmarillion about fifty times, I agree not entirely accurately, so that's more his fault as the author.

I know GRRM has made that comparisson, and still does (last example being the interview with Colbert). But that is just not true. If he would have written a book about the eastern empires, the Ghiscari empire, the rise and fall of Valyria, the complete history of the Targaryens, the Starks, Lannisters and the Ironborn, then we speak (nearly) about two similar books. But the history of Aegon I till Aegon III is not even enough backstory to compare it to the introduction of Arda. The WoIaF just picks the names I stated, but goes nowhere near in detaill as the Silmarrilion did. Not to mention that the Silmarrilion is not written as a wikipedia article. GRRM can use that comparison all day long, it just does not make it true. And I am not even a Tolkie fan.

[sifth]

15 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Word Count. There was simply too much, so the World Book mainly says this king ruled from this date to this date and there was some issues with succession etc etc.  It is my understanding that F&B goes more in depth.

 

I wouldn't go that far, the World Book has a lot of interesting stuff and details. All that being said, my favorite history story GRRM has written is still The Princess and the Queen. I've read that one quite a few times. The only down side really is the ending, where things just randomly stop. I suppose that will be handled better in Fire and Blood, once I get to the stuff on The Dance of the Dragons.

[The hairy bear]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

I pointed out that every time the wider fanbase has had a chance to comment on the quality of ADWD, they've unfailingly and consistently put up right up there at the top of the series. As a result, the "popular" consensus is that ADWD is one of the best book in the series.

Even though I do not disagree with your general point, I must confess that I don't share your perception of what "the popular consensus" is. If anything, I'd say that there's no consensus regarding ADWD.

A great majority of readers seems to agree that ASOS > AGOT > ACOK > AFFC. The first two are interchanged quite frequently, but the rest of the order is fairly standard. But when placing ADWD, I've seen many putting it in first, second, third, fourth or even fifth place. The polls I've been able to find online would support that thesis.

In this particular poll from our forums, we can see that although nearly 50% of the posters include it among the best three. But a slight majority do not. So, again, my impression is that there's not consensus in considering ADWD one of the best, and instead is a very divisive book.

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

People saying, "the last two books are objectively crap", "the last two books were a letdown and everyone knows it" are therefore presenting their personal opinion and making an appeal to an authority and consensus that not only does not exist, but is constantly contradicting their views.

Well, one think that I think that there's a consensus on, is that the first bunch of books (AGOT+ACOK+ASOS) is better than the second (AFFC+ADWD).

Still they are not "objectively crap", of course.  They are great. But the first ones are better. And as I see it, it's not a coincidence that those two are the ones that George has struggled to complete.

[Lady Rhodes]

10 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

A great majority of readers seems to agree that ASOS > AGOT > ACOK > AFFC. The first two are interchanged quite frequently, but the rest of the order is fairly standard. But when placing ADWD, I've seen many putting it in first, second, third, fourth or even fifth place. The polls I've been able to find online would support that thesis

I agree with you. There is a lack of consensus.  ASOS, I find, is normally number one, and if you think about what all occurs in the book plus its length, I can see why.  I would not count Dance as last, but I would venture that I would put it in two or three - some people prefer Game since it is the original, etc. 

I did not always feel this way, but I am rereading Dance now, and I think the emotional journey it takes the three principle characters through (Jon, Tyrion, Dany) will be considered pivotal by the end.  First reading, I found it dull. Second reading, I am watching the growth.  I venture that at the end of the series, it is going to go in this order: 1. Winds 2. Storm 3. Dance 4. Dream 5. Game 6.Feast 7. Clash

Rationale: In my opinion, what makes Storm great is all the things that happen. Jon and Ygritte falling in love and her dying, him becoming Lord Commander, Dany's run through Slaver's Bay, Red Wedding, Purple Wedding, Sansa's wedding, Lysa dying, Tyrion and Oberyn...I don't need to go on. You all know. Crucially, though, it is was all set up in Game and Clash, and now the dominos fall.  You know what two books have had a lot of set up? Feast and Dance, plus set up from the previous three novels.  Winds is going to be a crap ton of dominos falling. I think it will be the best of the series (which if the recent rumors are true that Winds is forthcoming, should be amazing news for us readers!)  So, that is my rationale for one and two.

Dance and Feast are emotional set ups. The characters have to get to a place emotionally in order for Winds and Dream to make sense and pay off. The only reason I think Feast ranks so low is that the Big Three are missing from Feast.  Thus, I think Dance will be seen as rounding out the top three. Dream is going to be the Iron Throne and the Others, I suspect. Satisfying for sure, but I don't think as much shock and wow will happen besides a few key tidbits.  Game started it all, so it is next.  Feast sets up a lot with Arya, Sansa, Cersei, Euron, and I think of particular importance, Dorne and Oldtown.  These shoes will drop.  And then Clash is last - sorry, but besides Renly dying, the introduction of Melisandre, Arya's introduction to the FM, and Jon meeting Ygritte and Tyrion learning to rule and Dany's visions in the house of the undying, it is a bland book.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

I consider Feast and Dance equally fourth because I consider them just one big, long book, but then again, I'm biased in that regard.

[Lady Rhodes]

7 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

I consider Feast and Dance equally fourth because I consider them just one big, long book, but then again, I'm biased in that regard.

That's a fair point. I thought I heard reference to a combined book that was made that basically puts things in total chronological order, but I can't remember if it exists or if it would be nice to exist haha. Long story short - I would like to read it that way and then see how I feel

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 minute ago, Lady Rhodes said:

That's a fair point. I thought I heard reference to a combined book that was made that basically puts things in total chronological order, but I can't remember if it exists or if it would be nice to exist haha. Long story short - I would like to read it that way and then see how I feel

 

LOL! See my signature. It's not a strictly chronological order since I found it impossible to reconcile certain things. My object was to improve the narrative and dramatic flow a little. I think I've read enough of your posts by now to believe you would enjoy it, but it is not for over-analysis, just pleasure.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

40 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

I consider Feast and Dance equally fourth because I consider them just one big, long book, but then again, I'm biased in that regard.

A big, long, unfinished book. I would like it much better had he put in the ending that was originally intended.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

4 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

A big, long, unfinished book. I would like it much better had he put in the ending that was originally intended.

 

A lot of things would have been better, but it is what it is. And what it is compelled me to try and make it a bit more palatable.

[Lady Rhodes]

58 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

 

LOL! See my signature. It's not a strictly chronological order since I found it impossible to reconcile certain things. My object was to improve the narrative and dramatic flow a little. I think I've read enough of your posts by now to believe you would enjoy it, but it is not for over-analysis, just pleasure.

OMG I did not see that. I am dying right now. Thank you!!!

[sifth]

27 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

 

A lot of things would have been better, but it is what it is. And what it is compelled me to try and make it a bit more palatable.

It's all about pacing and editing, which in my opinion is the biggest issue with AFFC and ADWD. For example I think GRRM could have structured the narrative a little differently. Maybe in place of having two major battles at the end of ADWD, have AFFC end with the battle of Ice and ADWD end with the battle of fire. Both books would have been literally ended with a bang and would have probably been looked better as a result.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

OMG I did not see that. I am dying right now. Thank you!!!

 

You're welcome. Too bad you are already reading Dance.

[Ser Gareth]

On ‎11‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 7:12 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

So what's the issue?

Are you saying that he is no longer a good writer?

Is writing a perishable skill?  I don't know to be honest.  I think GRRM is an exceptional story teller but the story has grown to big for him to handle.

The TV show is the best and worst thing to happen.  It gave him the recognition he craved and he is wealthy beyond his wildest dreams.  But I also think he got so caught him in the adulation.  That combined with the fact that he had already lost grip of the story meant that he just kept putting it off.  Now he also feels the pressure not only in timescales but in the quality he needs to achieve to match the recognition.

The fact is I don't believe GRRM enjoys writing ASOIAF anymore.  And that is why it will never be finished.  There will always be a reason to procrastinate.

[Ser Gareth]

11 hours ago, Werthead said:

Multiple, large-scale (as in, with thousands of responses) polls have repeatedly placed ADWD as the second-best book in the series, with ACoK consistently coming last, so I'm not sure if that's a useful point of comparison (not that I agree with that, I'd rank AGoT as the best book in the series, followed by ASoS, ADWD, ACoK and AFFC).

The negative reviews of Fire and Blood keeping bringing up The Silmarillion as a point of comparison and suggesting that is also a bad book. But since The Silmarillion is one of the greatest works of the imagination ever published, those reviews aren't very useful.

(due to publisher vagaries, I've been sent a review copy of Fire and Blood which could only be sent after the book's official release date, and still hasn't shown up, c'est la vie)

It'd be interesting to see what the polls say when its all over one way or another.  ADWD definitely divided the readership, but I also feel there are a lot of people out there who refuse to believe the series is getting worse or that GRRM won't deliver.  Out of principle they rate ADWD high because if they didn't it would prove the point of those who say otherwise.

The whole thing is very subjective.  I personally hated ADWD and rate it as the weakest book in the series.  It just didn't feel like a book in the ASOIAF series.  Theon's chapters were torture porn and felt more akin to a Saw/Hostel style movie than ASOIAF.  Then there was Tyrion & Penny on their circus roadshow.  The Meereen stuff was just a giant snooze fest.  The whole book just felt a disjointed mess.  Probably because it was split away from AFFC.  But at least AFFC primarily took place in Westeros, even if the Iron Born and Dorne chapters were a slog.

As for Fire & Blood, it is repetitive.  So repetitive.  Maybe that's the point, to demonstrate that nothing ever changes.  But even the style is repetitive.  It's definitely for hardcore fans only as most readers of ASOIAF are casual readers who don't really give a toss beyond the tale they're reading.  It's frustrating for those fans to see this book come out before TWOW.  And many of those fans only became fans because of the TV show.  I first read AGOT in 1998 and twenty years have passed and we are nowhere near to the conclusion of the book series.  The fact is if GRRM was truly passionate about ASOIAF it would consume him.  He wouldn't procrastinate or take on other projects because he'd be obsessed with writing it.  Just like he was with ASOS which he got out in amazingly fast time (and that was also the best book, proving time take on something doesn't equate to it being better).  But instead, despite his publicly stating otherwise, it is clear to me that ASOIAF is way down on his list of things he wants to do and that is why it is taking so long.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

It'd be interesting to see what the polls say when its all over one way or another.  ADWD definitely divided the readership, but I also feel there are a lot of people out there who refuse to believe the series is getting worse or that GRRM won't deliver.  Out of principle they rate ADWD high because if they didn't it would prove the point of those who say otherwise.

The whole thing is very subjective.  I personally hated ADWD and rate it as the weakest book in the series.  It just didn't feel like a book in the ASOIAF series.  Theon's chapters were torture porn and felt more akin to a Saw/Hostel style movie than ASOIAF.  Then there was Tyrion & Penny on their circus roadshow.  The Meereen stuff was just a giant snooze fest.  The whole book just felt a disjointed mess.  Probably because it was split away from AFFC.  But at least AFFC primarily took place in Westeros, even if the Iron Born and Dorne chapters were a slog.

As for Fire & Blood, it is repetitive.  So repetitive.  Maybe that's the point, to demonstrate that nothing ever changes.  But even the style is repetitive.  It's definitely for hardcore fans only as most readers of ASOIAF are casual readers who don't really give a toss beyond the tale they're reading.  It's frustrating for those fans to see this book come out before TWOW.  And many of those fans only became fans because of the TV show.  I first read AGOT in 1998 and twenty years have passed and we are nowhere near to the conclusion of the book series.  The fact is if GRRM was truly passionate about ASOIAF it would consume him.  He wouldn't procrastinate or take on other projects because he'd be obsessed with writing it.  Just like he was with ASOS which he got out in amazingly fast time (and that was also the best book, proving time take on something doesn't equate to it being better).  But instead, despite his publicly stating otherwise, it is clear to me that ASOIAF is way down on his list of things he wants to do and that is why it is taking so long.

 

To be fair, things were a whole lot less complex back in the days of ASOS. We only had one Essos POV and to be perfectly honest, part of me wishes things were kept that way. I mean the Essos stuff, despite interesting world building seems so detached from the main plot, it almost feels like a separate novel most of the time.................which is probably why GRRM turned Dany's AGOT and ACOK's chapters into novellas. I don't think GRRM has become a bad writer in the time span between ASOS and AFFC, I just think he let the story get a little too out of hand. He had his world grow too big too fast and as a result it became insanely complex. At least with ASOS everyone aside from Dany was on the same continent and events from one POV character could often play off of events that happened in another. You can't really do that when you spread your pieces too far out, which seems to be happening with each new POV entering Essos these days. Sure they can play off the events of each others stuff, but we still have over 20 POV characters in Westeros, where the real story is taking place.

Or maybe that inane theory about Robert Jordan being the actual author of the series is true, take your pick. Yes, this is an actual thing; there are crazy yoyo's online who think Jordan was the ghost writer of the series, who based it all off GRRM's ideas, crazy as it might sound.

[Ser Gareth]

20 minutes ago, sifth said:

 

To be fair, things were a whole lot less complex back in the days of ASOS. We only had one Essos POV and to be perfectly honest, part of me wishes things were kept that way. I mean the Essos stuff, despite interesting world building seems so detached from the main plot, it almost feels like a separate novel most of the time.................which is probably why GRRM turned Dany's AGOT and ACOK's chapters into novellas. I don't think GRRM has become a bad writer in the time span between ASOS and AFFC, I just think he let the story get a little too out of hand. He had his world grow too big too fast and as a result it became insanely complex. At least with ASOS everyone aside from Dany was on the same continent and events from one POV character could often play off of events that happened in another. You can't really do that when you spread your pieces too far out, which seems to be happening with each new POV entering Essos these days. Sure they can play off the events of each others stuff, but we still have over 20 POV characters in Westeros, where the real story is taking place.

Or maybe that inane theory about Robert Jordan being the actual author of the series is true, take your pick. Yes, this is an actual thing; there are crazy yoyo's online who think Jordan was the ghost writer of the series, who based it all off GRRM's ideas, crazy as it might sound.

Never heard the Jordan theory before, but I think that is beyond crackpot!

I agree with the rest of what you wrote.  I said elsewhere in this thread that it all started to go wrong when the five year gap got scrapped.  Actually, it was wrong before that because the reason the five year gap got scrapped was when GRRM realised the age of the characters vs some sitting around doing nothing wasn't going to work.  Basically the pacing of the story was awry due to the youth of the characters involved.

That point the story was lost and GRRM started to find it a chore.