What do you think caused Martin to loose his grip on the material?

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

Never heard the Jordan theory before, but I think that is beyond crackpot!

I agree with the rest of what you wrote.  I said elsewhere in this thread that it all started to go wrong when the five year gap got scrapped.  Actually, it was wrong before that because the reason the five year gap got scrapped was when GRRM realised the age of the characters vs some sitting around doing nothing wasn't going to work.  Basically the pacing of the story was awry due to the youth of the characters involved.

That point the story was lost and GRRM started to find it a chore.

 

See I'm one of the few people who's happy GRRM didn't go with the time skip. Crazy as it might sound I view it as one of the laziest forms of story telling, because it skips over character development and is a very easy way for a character to act differently or be stronger, in the here and now, without having to put any effort into your story telling.

The only real good that comes from a time skip, is the fact that it makes child characters relevant. It would have certainly helped Rickon and possibly Tommon's character development, but int he process hurt everyone else's.

[Lady Rhodes]

6 hours ago, Trefayne said:

 

You're welcome. Too bad you are already reading Dance.

I just got to the first Arya chapter in Dance, too, so Feast is pretty much done. Alas! Next time!

[Three-Fingered Pete]

3 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I just got to the first Arya chapter in Dance, too, so Feast is pretty much done. Alas! Next time!

 

Actually, Feast is done by the time Areo Hotah shows up in Dance. Asha is the only real early crossover and she pretty much takes up Bran's spots after his measly three chapters.

[Heartofice]

10 hours ago, sifth said:

 

See I'm one of the few people who's happy GRRM didn't go with the time skip. Crazy as it might sound I view it as one of the laziest forms of story telling, because it skips over character development and is a very easy way for a character to act differently or be stronger, in the here and now, without having to put any effort into your story telling.

The only real good that comes from a time skip, is the fact that it makes child characters relevant. It would have certainly helped Rickon and possibly Tommon's character development, but int he process hurt everyone else's.

I feel the opposite. Time skips are actually one of my most favourite devices. Whether it’s a book or tv show, a time skip for me shows that the writer is prepared to look at a story long term and is willing for characters to change and evolve. Those changes in life are usually gradual, they do not happen over night. A time skip is a good way to demonstrate the ever changing quality of life. 

 

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

I feel the opposite. Time skips are actually one of my most favourite devices. Whether it’s a book or tv show, a time skip for me shows that the writer is prepared to look at a story long term and is willing for characters to change and evolve. Those changes in life are usually gradual, they do not happen over night. A time skip is a good way to demonstrate the ever changing quality of life. 

 

See I think it's even worse on tv shows. I'm a huge fan of the "show don't tell" approach, when it comes to visual media and tv shows that use a time skip are sort of forced to use the latter, when it comes to filling in blanks. They're filled with chats of "remember adventures X, Y and Z, we had last year, man those sure were fun".

From time to time, you'll try to find a show get around this by using flashbacks, but it's not something very common anymore, aside from maybe one episode. Even with flashbacks you run into issues, because you know who is completely safe and who isn't and you know certain story points that "have to happen" for the present time skip timeline to even make sense.

They are also completely horrible for introducing new characters, because they skip over their introduction and formation of said friendship and again are forced to have characters tell us what happened in the in between, without ever showing us. Usually it happens by characters just randomly saying "remember 5 years ago when we first met Mr/Ms. X, man that sure was a crazy day wasn't it", again telling us what happened while never showing it. 

The only good I can find that comes from a time skip in visual media, is the same one that exists in literature and that's the simple fact that it allows infant and child characters to become more relevant in the story.

But if your more a fan of the tell don't show approach that's cool.

[Heartofice]

11 minutes ago, sifth said:

See I think it's even worse on tv shows. I'm a huge fan of the "show don't tell" approach, when it comes to visual media and tv shows that use a time skip are sort of forced to use the latter, when it comes to filling in blanks. They're filled with chats of "remember adventures X, Y and Z, we had last year, man those sure were fun".

From time to time, you'll try to find a show get around this by using flashbacks, but it's not something very common anymore, aside from maybe one episode. Even with flashbacks you run into issues, because you know who is completely safe and who isn't and you know certain story points that "have to happen" for the present time skip timeline to even make sense.

They are also completely horrible for introducing new characters, because they skip over their introduction and formation of said friendship and again are forced to have characters tell us what happened in the in between, without ever showing us. Usually it happens by characters just randomly saying "remember 5 years ago when we first met Mr/Ms. X, man that sure was a crazy day wasn't it", again telling us what happened while never showing it. 

The only good I can find that comes from a time skip in visual media, is the same one that exists in literature and that's the simple fact that it allows infant and child characters to become more relevant in the story.

But if your more a fan of the tell don't show approach that's cool.

Oh I agree most tv shows tend to do time skips very badly because they underestimate the intelligence of their audience. They assume the audience needs to know all the details of what happened in the intervening years, to explain the current situation. Often that really isn’t necessary. So yes they resort to flashbacks and explanational dialogue to set the scene. It’s a difficult thing to pull off.

The first example i really noticed was Battlestar Galactica. It did a great job I felt of showing the consequence of events that I didn’t need to actually see. The outcome of the election etc. 

And the Americans recently did a time jump that skipped over the mundane in between years to show the effects of previous events. It did a great job.

I do feel it’s perfectly possible to do time jumps well, you just have to have faith in your story and your audience to not obsess about how you got somewhere 

[sifth]

3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Oh I agree most tv shows tend to do time skips very badly because they underestimate the intelligence of their audience. They assume the audience needs to know all the details of what happened in the intervening years, to explain the current situation. Often that really isn’t necessary. So yes they resort to flashbacks and explanational dialogue to set the scene. It’s a difficult thing to pull off.

The first example i really noticed was Battlestar Galactica. It did a great job I felt of showing the consequence of events that I didn’t need to actually see. The outcome of the election etc. 

And the Americans recently did a time jump that skipped over the mundane in between years to show the effects of previous events. It did a great job.

I do feel it’s perfectly possible to do time jumps well, you just have to have faith in your story and your audience to not obsess about how you got somewhere 

 

Well in BSG's case it was only a one year time skip. So relatively speaking it wasn't that long. Also it really hurt the development of Athena's character. At the start of the season 2 final, the crew is left in an interesting situation, can we trust this person who for all intensive purposes is a clone of the man who tried to murder our captain. Only for season 3 episode 1 to start up and for the crew to 100% this person who for all intensive purposes is a clone of the man who tried to kill their captain. We're just led to believe that somewhere in that space of that year she earned their trust enough for them to let her out of prison and partake in missions that held the faith of the entire human race on the line. This is telling us something, but never showing it to us.

 

Park's and Rec had a time jump the final year as well and to be honest I think this is one of the few times it actually worked, because it was done in a way to create a sense of mystery; which is something very uncommon for a comedy show. It left us wonder why Leslie and Ron were no longer friends, how Andy of all people got his own tv show, how is Ben now a member of Congress and so on. So when flashbacks were used to fill in the blanks it actually became fun and made the final season the perfect epilogue to the series. With the final episode itself have flash forwards showing the characters having even more crazy adventures later on in life.

As much as I loved the tv show Fargo, I'm not sure if I like the one used on that show either. Gus and Molly are suddenly married, and expecting their first, without us ever seeing the formation of their relationship outside of them talking about their first date. Key and Peele's characters apparently spend the time in between doing nothing but working in a mail room. The only character the time skip really works for is Lester, who at this point thinks he's got away scot free with murdering his wife and as a result makes his eventual screw up believable.

 

[Heartofice]

15 minutes ago, sifth said:

 

  Hide contents

 

Well in BSG's case it was only a one year time skip. So relatively speaking it wasn't that long. Also it really hurt the development of Athena's character. At the start of the season 2 final, the crew is left in an interesting situation, can we trust this person who for all intensive purposes is a clone of the man who tried to murder our captain. Only for season 3 episode 1 to start up and for the crew to 100% this person who for all intensive purposes is a clone of the man who tried to kill their captain. We're just led to believe that somewhere in that space of that year she earned their trust enough for them to let her out of prison and partake in missions that held the faith of the entire human race on the line. This is telling us something, but never showing it to us.

 

Park's and Rec had a time jump the final year as well and to be honest I think this is one of the few times it actually worked, because it was done in a way to create a sense of mystery; which is something very uncommon for a comedy show. It left us wonder why Leslie and Ron were no longer friends, how Andy of all people got his own tv show, how is Ben now a member of Congress and so on. So when flashbacks were used to fill in the blanks it actually became fun and made the final season the perfect epilogue to the series. With the final episode itself have flash forwards show the characters having even more crazy adventures later on in life.

As much as I loved the tv show Fargo, I'm not sure if like the one used on that show either. Gus and Molly are suddenly married, and expecting their first, without us ever seeing the formation of their relationship out side of them talking about their first date. Key and Peele's characters apparently spend the time in between doing nothing but working in a mail room. The only character the time skip really works for is Lester, who at this point thinks he's got away scot free with murdering his wife and as a result makes his eventual screw up believable.

 

 

 

Spoiler

I guess we see things differently, for me Fargo is a great example of ‘you don’t have to show everything’. I totally got Gus and Mollys relationship without having to be told of all the things that happened in between. It was there in the acting, you see in just a couple of scenes how well Gus has adapted to life as a husband and Mollys frustration throughout the year. It’s clever and exactly what I’m talking about. 

The show centred on Lester so I’d expect that more focus is on him.

id forgotten about Fargo but yeah it just reminded me of how much I like time jumps! I don’t think the show could have worked without it.

 

[sifth]

14 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

  Hide contents

I guess we see things differently, for me Fargo is a great example of ‘you don’t have to show everything’. I totally got Gus and Mollys relationship without having to be told of all the things that happened in between. It was there in the acting, you see in just a couple of scenes how well Gus has adapted to life as a husband and Mollys frustration throughout the year. It’s clever and exactly what I’m talking about. 

The show centred on Lester so I’d expect that more focus is on him.

id forgotten about Fargo but yeah it just reminded me of how much I like time jumps! I don’t think the show could have worked without it.

 

I guess for me it's just a mix bag, I mean it can be done right, as stated with Parks and Rec and to a lesser extent Fargo, but I've also seen it hurt shows a great deal, like with Young Justice and Twin Peaks.

[Cas Stark]

On 11/22/2018 at 12:06 PM, Ser Gareth said:

I think it is relevant to this topic.  Clearly a lot of work has gone into it and that has clearly slowed down the writing of TWOW.

I'd also say that the subjective views of Fire and Blood, combined with the subjective views on ADWD, don't bode well for TWOW.  To get back to the level of ACOK, let alone the exceptional levels of AGOT and ASOS, there is a long way to go and I fear that we won't even get anywhere near those heights even if the book is ever released.

I agree, hes's never getting back to the form of the first three books.  And, based on the reviews I have read, the 'dull' tone that he chose has stripped Fire and Blood of all his actual strengths as an author, and doesn't seem to have been received well.  Also the numerous errors and retcons shows that far from getting a handle on the material, it's as far out of his control as ever, so that even in the book he says is easier than ASOIAF that still took years..it is replete with problems.  Not a good sign.  

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I think the only hope I have for it is that whenever the story finally leaves Mereen it will pick up again. I'm of the opinion that the problem with most of the story is caused by Mereen, the reason why other parts of plot can't get started is that it requires Mereen to be done before they can start.  Furthermore despite GRRM's valiant effort he can't get the readers to be invested in Mereen.  No one actually cares about what happens Mereen, we just all want it to be over with   And all of the chapters spent on it just feels like wasted time to the reader.

One of the main reasons I agree with the view that he should have kept the 5 year gap is that then we'd have skipped all of Mereen, and started the story again when Dany is ready to invade.

But GRRM decided he wanted to write a story about the struggles of a foreign occupation force, probably because it was a timely topic at the time with the US invasion of Iraq and and Afghanistan.    Once again it just shows storytellers should not try too hard to be "relevant", because what is timely and relevant can change very quickly.  The best way to be timely and relevant is actually to be timeless, and deal with universal human struggles and transcend what the "hot issue" is at the moment, and forcing these timely elements into one's story can actually derail it,.

[The Coconut God]

1 hour ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

I think the only hope I have for it is that whenever the story finally leaves Mereen it will pick up again. I'm of the opinion that the problem with most of the story is caused by Mereen, the reason why other parts of plot can't get started is that it requires Mereen to be done before they can start.  Furthermore despite GRRM's valiant effort he can't get the readers to be invested in Mereen.  No one actually cares about what happens Mereen, we just all want it to be over with   And all of the chapters spent on it just feels like wasted time to the reader.

I was and am very invested in Meereen. It only feels like wasted time for you because you never expected it to matter to begin with. It's your own bias preventing you from forming a different opinion. Once the Others cut through the North like a knife through butter and Jon is forced to take his people to Essos, everything will fall into place. Dany is not heading for Westeros any faster because that's not where her story is going. Meereen is ground zero of her conquest of Essos, and the Westerosi will come to her.

[Cas Stark]

9 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

I was and am very invested in Meereen. It only feels like wasted time for you because you never expected it to matter to begin with. It's your own bias preventing you from forming a different opinion. Once the Others cut through the North like a knife through butter and Jon is forced to take his people to Essos, everything will fall into place. Dany is not heading for Westeros any faster because that's not where her story is going. Meereen is ground zero of her conquest of Essos, and the Westerosi will come to her.

That might make Meereen more worthwhile, but I'm afraid that the odds of your theory that Dany doesn't go to Westeros being true are slim to none.  And if your theory is false, then Meereen is exactly the over written waste of time sink that many think it is.

[sifth]

43 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

I was and am very invested in Meereen. It only feels like wasted time for you because you never expected it to matter to begin with. It's your own bias preventing you from forming a different opinion. Once the Others cut through the North like a knife through butter and Jon is forced to take his people to Essos, everything will fall into place. Dany is not heading for Westeros any faster because that's not where her story is going. Meereen is ground zero of her conquest of Essos, and the Westerosi will come to her.

You're using your own conjecture to justify Meereen. There is a very good chance the Others wont do everything you just stated and Jon wont be taking his merry band to Essos.  To be honest I don't know if Meereen will matter in the long run or it wont, but I wont use my own fan fiction to justify it's existence either. For the time being it does seem like filler, will it remain that way, well only GRRM knows for sure.

[The Coconut God]

10 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That might make Meereen more worthwhile, but I'm afraid that the odds of your theory that Dany doesn't go to Westeros being true are slim to none.  And if your theory is false, then Meereen is exactly the over written waste of time sink that many think it is.

It might not be true. I can't tell what George will write, I can only say that the twist would fit with what has been written.

However, the simple fact that I can come up with the theory shows that Meereen and other plot lines people tend to easily dismiss aren't necessarily problems, but could in fact be part of a larger twist (it might be a different one, who knows?). After all, people didn't exactly predict the Red Wedding before ASoS came out. Therefore, basing your criticism on the presumption that you know where the story is supposed to go is spurious at best.

It is far more likely that George is stuck iterating on secondary characters and plot lines, or trying to figure which PoV would be best for presenting a certain event. Both and exodus to Essos and a conquest of Westeros would present a lot of situations where multiple iterations are possible in between major plot points.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I knew when I said "nobdy cares about Meereen" there is going to be somebody who jumps in with "I care, I care, look at me!".  Yeah, you care, good for you and the 5% of the readership you represent.  

And by the way, nobody to going to Meereen or Essos.  That's not what the story has ever been about, and even without the benefit of knowing the general plot from the TV show, I could have said with confidence that your scenario of everyone going there is absurd and will not happen. 

 

[The Coconut God]

2 minutes ago, sifth said:

You're using your own conjecture to justify Meereen. There is a very good chance the Others wont do everything you just stated and Jon wont be taking his merry band to Essos.  To be honest I don't know if Meereen will matter in the long run or it wont, but I wont use my own fan fiction to justify it's existence either. For the time being if does seem like filler, will it remain that way, well only GRRM knows for sure.

I am creating a possible scenario starting from the premise that these plot lines are NOT filler. Why? Because if it turns out that they are, the quality of the series as a whole will drop regardless of how well they are written or how quickly George disentangles his characters from them in TWoW.

This series is as popular as it is because of its enormous re-read value. Its clever twists are almost impossible to see the first time around, but on a second or third read you realize that they had a ton of set-up and foreshadowing going back an insane amount of chapters. There are little things you don't even notice without reading observations from the fandom. Leaving behind dozens of useless, bloated plot lines that don't lead anywhere is anathema to this kind of storytelling. Feel free to criticize the author if something truly turns out to be filler, but as long as you don't know for sure why it's there, "filler" should never be your go-to answer.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

So your argument is "I can't imagine a good writer like GRRM writing filler so I have to operate on faith that all these things which walks like filler and talks like filler are, in fact, not filler."

I'm sorry, I'm just not willing to go there. GRRM is a good writer, but good writers screw up all the time, especially when they go big time and start ignoring other peoples' editorial input.  

[The Coconut God]

7 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

So your argument is "I can't imagine a good writer like GRRM writing filler so I have to operate on faith that all these things which walks like filler and talks like filler are, in fact, not filler."

I'm sorry, I'm just not willing to go there. GRRM is a good writer, but good writers screw up all the time, especially when they go big time and start ignoring other peoples' editorial input.  

I did not say I can't imagine him failing, of course he might, and if he does we'll see it when TWoW comes out. What I said was that this can't be our default stance when it comes to Feast and Dance, them being the set-up part of the post-Wot5K major ac. The pay-off for them is not in yet, you can't judge them based on what you were expecting from the previous three books; if we're going there, people were expecting a Robb + Dany marriage prior to ASoS.

As for what the show can tell us, butterfly wings and hurricanes and all that. They were probably waiting for Winds to come of before season 5 or season 6 at the latest so they could gauge the fan reaction to the big twist before committing to it. It didn't come out, so they cut all the risky Essos stuff and defaulted to the outline ending.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

It's 2 books, they are long enough for me to judge them on their own.  I didn't need to watch Revenge of the Sith to know that Phantom Menace and AOTC were awful. I did give Lucas the benefit of the doubt after Phantom.  But after 2 movies, I stopped.