What do you think caused Martin to loose his grip on the material?

[sifth]

1 hour ago, The Coconut God said:

Same as what I said about Cat. Theon starts on a mission and things only start changing after he meets with Balon. With Arianne the end goal is more of a mystery for her and she has to process the possibilities and weigh them against the Master Plan.

It's not that I find her particularly interesting, I guess it's the opposite of that, really. There are plenty of the original characters I never found all that interesting as individuals, for various reasons, but I still enjoyed the overall story and the way it was put together.

Catelyn is a great example. Her grief and inability to control the situations she was in made her chapters oppressive in ASoS. Especially since I, as a reader, knew her children weren't really dead. But that desperation, that sense of dread, those vain attempts to control Robb, ultimately make the Red Wedding that more effective. I also felt that the impact of Doran's Master Plan was increased by Arianne's naivete and shallowness in AFFC, so that worked for me.

I wonder if people truly dislike these characters, though, or if there's a new character bias in play. Sansa, Bran, Catelyn, even Dany, Jon and Arya, all have dragging chapters in the first three books. But then it's not a problem because they are protagonists. New arrivals are deemed unworthy, even though it's natural to bring some new characters in with a new arc.

I can't speak for everyone here, but I personally love being in Victarion, Cersei, Asha and Ser Barry's head. Park of it's because I've always loved those characters from the start and another part of it is it was fun see how interesting they were from another prospective.

First off Vic and Cersei, place us inside the heads of two villainous characters, something GRRM usually doesn't do. The guy usually likes to keep things grey for most characters. It was fun see that Cirie was nowhere near as smart as she thought she was and seeing all of her master plans go up in smoke was wonderful. In fact Cersei was the only major character to have an actual story arc in AFFC. Everyone else story felt like "meanwhile in Dorne" and meanwhile in the Iron Islands" and so on. Like was Vic being just a dumb as everyone said he was, but still never the less still a capable commander was also a lot of fun.

I've always loved Asha and Ser. Barry, so seeing them become POV's was a dream come true for me. Asha's first ADWD chapter and all of Ser. Barry's were possibly some of my favorites.

 

It sort of has more to do with the fact that I hate the POV characters who were half assed into existence; looking at you Quenten Martell and Jon Con. Circie and Ser. Barry were pretty important supporting characters in the first 3 books and Asha and Vic have a connection with Theon and the Iron Island plot, which was going on since the second novel, so they therefore have relevance as a result of that. I have no idea why I'm suddenly suppose to care about Quenten and Jon Con, the latter of which was some random dead guy for the past 4 novels, who hardly even got talked about. 

 

Also you're right, Cat had a mission, Theon had a mission and guess what Arriane has a mission as well. There's no need for 2 entire chapters of her self reflecting for her mission to begin. I can't even say she has an amazing cast of supporting characters during her travel log, because I can honestly not remember anyone by name from those two same chapters, until she finally meets the half maester at the very end of the second one. It feels like GRRM is scarred for this story to even begin, for some odd reason.

[Cas Stark]

I don't see puzzles, but maybe what you see as a puzzle I see as a loose thread that may or may be satisfactorily resolved, but then I am of the opinion that many people see things, clues, foreshadowing in the story that isn't there, like your Essos theory, I can't even think off the top of my head of any puzzles in the last two books.

[The Coconut God]

8 minutes ago, sifth said:

I can't speak for everyone here, but I personally love being in Victarion, Cersei, Asha and Ser Barry's head. Park of it's because I've always loved those characters from the start and another part of it is it was fun see how interesting they were from another prospective.

I love all of those characters! And yes, Jon Con and Areo Hotah are a bit boring, but they only have a few chapters, and if you put it like that, half the Prologue and Epilogue people are a bit bland (except Pate, Pate is the best one).

The thing is, with such a huge cast it makes sense that not everyone is special, compelling and great. Quentin in particular is awesome precisely because he isn't any of those things. He's the non-hero who nevertheless does something very brave and stupid because he doesn't want to disappoint his dad, and gets killed horribly for it. He's every teenage boy who dreams of being a hero in a fantasy world if he actually got to be a hero in fantasy world without the tinted glasses.

13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't see puzzles, but maybe what you see as a puzzle I see as a loose thread that may or may be satisfactorily resolved, but then I am of the opinion that many people see things, clues, foreshadowing in the story that isn't there, like your Essos theory, I can't even think off the top of my head of any puzzles in the last two books.

It's less foreshadowing and prophecies (although I'll take them if they're there!) and more "What would the plot be if all the filler matters and we ignore the outcomes everyone expects?" and "Is there enough backstory for X to feel like it was always planned on a re-read, or would it be a total ass-pull if it happened?".

[Cas Stark]

Just now, The Coconut God said:

I love all of those characters! And yes, Jon Con and Areo Hotah are a bit boring, but they only have a few chapters, and if you put it like that, half the Prologue and Epilogue people are a bit bland (except Pate, Pate is the best one).

The thing is, with such a huge cast it makes sense that not everyone is special, compelling and great. Quentin in particular is awesome precisely because he isn't any of those things. He's the non-hero who nevertheless does something very brave and stupid because he doesn't want to disappoint his dad, and gets killed horribly for it. He's every teenage boy who dreams of being a hero in a fantasy world if he actually got to be a hero in fantasy world without the tinted glasses.

It's less foreshadowing and prophecies (although I'll take them if they're there!) and more "What would the plot be if all the filler matters and we ignore the outcomes everyone expects?" and "Is there enough backstory for X to feel like it was always planned on a re-read, or would it be a total ass-pull if it happened?".

All the filler can't matter, it's impossible, Martin would need another 5 books to make even half of Brienne's chapters have any meaning, same for Tyrion's travels, and Quentyn [ok, if he's alive, which he isn't, then giving him a POV might make sense], if he's dead then his POV was 100% filler, unless you are correct and Dany never leaves Essos, then Meereen is all filler.  By my count about 1/3 of the last two books was filler, which is the exact reason why I came to believe he had lost control of his story. And there is nothing in any of the released chapters for Winds that gives me a sense that he has regained control and isn't still stuck in the weeds. But, we can agree to disagree, as it's very unlikely that there will ever be a clear resolution, because no final determination can be made until the series is finished, which is very unlikely to happen.

[The Coconut God]

17 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

All the filler can't matter, it's impossible, Martin would need another 5 books to make even half of Brienne's chapters have any meaning, same for Tyrion's travels, and Quentyn [ok, if he's alive, which he isn't, then giving him a POV might make sense], if he's dead then his POV was 100% filler, unless you are correct and Dany never leaves Essos, then Meereen is all filler.  By my count about 1/3 of the last two books was filler, which is the exact reason why I came to believe he had lost control of his story. And there is nothing in any of the released chapters for Winds that gives me a sense that he has regained control and isn't still stuck in the weeds. But, we can agree to disagree, as it's very unlikely that there will ever be a clear resolution, because no final determination can be made until the series is finished, which is very unlikely to happen.

I've turned the Exodus scenario on all its faces during the last year, and I am 100% certain it can work and would tie almost everything together, including Brienne as the Last Hero/Azor Ahai to justify her slow burn character development. I'll have to find the time to make an updated mega thread about it at some point, the version in my signature is old and lame. That being said, I am considerably less certain that George is actually going to do it. I don't want to get my hopes up.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, The Coconut God said:

I love all of those characters! And yes, Jon Con and Areo Hotah are a bit boring, but they only have a few chapters, and if you put it like that, half the Prologue and Epilogue people are a bit bland (except Pate, Pate is the best one).

The thing is, with such a huge cast it makes sense that not everyone is special, compelling and great. Quentin in particular is awesome precisely because he isn't any of those things. He's the non-hero who nevertheless does something very brave and stupid because he doesn't want to disappoint his dad, and gets killed horribly for it. He's every teenage boy who dreams of being a hero in a fantasy world if he actually got to be a hero in fantasy world without the tinted glasses.

 

I don't know if I can agree with this. I mean what am I suppose to feel seeing a guy who is a bit of a screw up, actually screw up. I think I'd have felt more had he actually succeeded, it would have at least given his POV some relevance, which by the end of ADWD it desperately needed.

 

I sort of hate when some of these characters feel like cameras like Jon Con and Areo Hotah, but at least they're around interesting people so I'm able to feel something. Maybe not for the POV themselves, but at the very least the people around them. With Quentin though, I just felt nothing. It was honestly "ohh the very predictable thing, that I expected to happen actually happened", and very little else. You call him a non hero, but I think he's closer to being a non character, because in his life as a POV he did very little if anything to advance the plot or even to provide us with information that we could have easily gotten from someone else.

[The Coconut God]

3 hours ago, sifth said:

I don't know if I can agree with this. I mean what am I suppose to feel seeing a guy who is a bit of a screw up, actually screw up. I think I'd have felt more had he actually succeeded, it would have at least given his POV some relevance, which by the end of ADWD it desperately needed.

Sympathy?  I dunno, people sometimes fail in this series, that doesn't make their stories less cool. Ironically, one could argue that you didn't like Quentin because he only had 4 chapters, all in fairly different places and situations, and you didn't get to connect to him as well as you could have. Perhaps we should have had another chapter or two at the start to see if he was ever optimistic about the trip and to experience the pirate attack with him. Another chapter at Astapor wouldn't have hurt either.

3 hours ago, sifth said:

You call him a non hero, but I think he's closer to being a non character, because in his life as a POV he did very little if anything to advance the plot or even to provide us with information that we could have easily gotten from someone else.

Like I said before, I hope his death will actually have an impact. Not for Arianne's story, because if it's all about that, you can argue Quentin could have been cut altogether and Dorne would have still preferred Aegon because he was Elia's kid (if you cut Quentin they wouldn't be courting Dany to begin with).

But if Quentin's death leads to Mellario doing something really horrible (like feed Jorah to some bears or kill Missandei or a dragon) which in turn leads to Dany doing something rash that results in Norvos burning down, which in turn gets the Braavosi to elect a Sealord that opposes Dany instead of one who would support her for her anti-slavery policies, which in turn leads to the Faceless Men turning their gaze on Dany and killing her or killing the dragons by the end of the series... Well, then you could say that Quentin's screw up got a very important ball rolling.

Kind of how Ned's screw up got the War of the Five Kings rolling.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, The Coconut God said:

Sympathy?  I dunno, people sometimes fail in this series, that doesn't make their stories less cool. Ironically, one could argue that you didn't like Quentin because he only had 4 chapters, all in fairly different places and situations, and you didn't get to connect to him as well as you could have. Perhaps we should have had another chapter or two at the start to see if he was ever optimistic about the trip and to experience the pirate attack with him. Another chapter at Astapor wouldn't have hurt either.

Like I said before, I hope his death will actually have an impact. Not for Arianne's story, because if it's all about that, you can argue Quentin could have been cut altogether and Dorne would have still preferred Aegon because he was Elia's kid (if you cut Quentin they wouldn't be courting Dany to begin with).

But if Quentin's death leads to Mellario doing something really horrible (like feed Jorah to some bears or kill Missandei or a dragon) which in turn leads to Dany doing something rash that results in Norvos burning down, which in turn gets the Braavosi to elect a Sealord that opposes Dany instead of one who would support her for her anti-slavery policies, which in turn leads to the Faceless Men turning their gaze on Dany and killing her or killing the dragons by the end of the series... Well, then you could say that Quentin's screw up got a very important ball rolling.

Kind of how Ned's screw up got the War of the Five Kings rolling.

I have a hard time believing Quentin's death will be as important to the plot as Ned's was. Best case scenario it will have Dorne join Faegon's side and prevent the Dornish from giving Dany any help in the future. Ned gets bonus points for also not being boring to read and having many characters that actually do advance the plot.

It was not the change of locations that made Quentin boring. It was the fact that he was just some random nobody character, who had basically no form of establishment before AFFC and even that was extremely minor. Even his two buddies who's names I can't even remember did nothing to standout, so I can't say "at least he had a strong supporting cast" like Arya did. So as a result, we're left with a random guy who is a screw up, who  does nothing to advance the plot, aside from letting the dragons free, and I'm suppose to care about him. I just have no idea how that's possible.

[Tagganaro]

16 hours ago, sifth said:

I have a hard time believing Quentin's death will be as important to the plot as Ned's was. Best case scenario it will have Dorne join Faegon's side and prevent the Dornish from giving Dany any help in the future. Ned gets bonus points for also not being boring to read and having many characters that actually do advance the plot.

It was not the change of locations that made Quentin boring. It was the fact that he was just some random nobody character, who had basically no form of establishment before AFFC and even that was extremely minor. Even his two buddies who's names I can't even remember did nothing to standout, so I can't say "at least he had a strong supporting cast" like Arya did. So as a result, we're left with a random guy who is a screw up, who  does nothing to advance the plot, aside from letting the dragons free, and I'm suppose to care about him. I just have no idea how that's possible.

Yeah, this continues to be my issue with Quentyn.  I did actually enjoy his chapters for the most part, but it's so pointless.  Even assuming that it leads to Dorne turning against Dany or Mellario and causes a whole series of events, it could have just as easily happened off-page.  I've said in this thread before, but you've already established everything you need to establish in Arriane's chapters- that Quentyn is on a mission to Dany to try and get her to marry him.  Then you can just pick up right where you do anyway in Dany's chapters when Quentyn first shows up.  There is no need for a POV and multiple chapters here- if you really think the dragon burning Quentyn is such a cool moment and needs to be on the page then make him a prologue or epilogue.  

And Vic is one of my favorite POVs, he's hilarious and bad-ass and the perfect mix of awful irredeemable villain and very slightly sympathetic but it's another POV that is entirely unnecessary to me.  And I get that we're only talking about a few chapters for each POV, but these chapters add up- in light of all the issues finishing ADWD and not even being able to include the climactic fight the book seems to want to build up to, I can't seriously defend the inclusion of multiple POVs for these characters, when GRRM needed to be putting in serious work in Winterfell and Mereen to get to where he needed to be.  

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Yes, the problem isn't that Quentyn's chapters or Victarions or Brienne's chapter's are bad.  I think they'd have made interest reads as separate novellas on their own.  But they don't form a coherent narrative arc with the other chapters and all they do is damaging the pacing of the main storyline.. 

Imagine if there is a whole separate Act of MacBeth where Shakespeare wrote about some side adventure of Malcolm on his way to England.  Sure, it maybe well written, and maybe we learn more about Malcolm and he's an interesting character.  But the story is not about Malcolm, it's about MacBeth, and whatever we learned about Malcolm doesnt' really affect the main story.  That act needs to be cut from the play.

[sifth]

4 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

 

And Vic is one of my favorite POVs, he's hilarious and bad-ass and the perfect mix of awful irredeemable villain and very slightly sympathetic but it's another POV that is entirely unnecessary to me.  And I get that we're only talking about a few chapters for each POV, but these chapters add up- in light of all the issues finishing ADWD and not even being able to include the climactic fight the book seems to want to build up to, I can't seriously defend the inclusion of multiple POVs for these characters, when GRRM needed to be putting in serious work in Winterfell and Mereen to get to where he needed to be.  

 

I think what I love most about Vic is the fact that he feels like a Robocop or Starship Troopers character and is completely desensitized by violence. He's not out for power like Tywin or Cersie and he doesn't do it because he enjoys human suffers like Joffrey and Ramsay; violence is just part of his every day life and it's become something no different than putting a shirt on for him. It really makes for some great comedy, all be it in a very strange and even messed up way at times.

[The Coconut God]

3 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Yeah, this continues to be my issue with Quentyn.  I did actually enjoy his chapters for the most part, but it's so pointless.  Even assuming that it leads to Dorne turning against Dany or Mellario and causes a whole series of events, it could have just as easily happened off-page.  I've said in this thread before, but you've already established everything you need to establish in Arriane's chapters- that Quentyn is on a mission to Dany to try and get her to marry him.  Then you can just pick up right where you do anyway in Dany's chapters when Quentyn first shows up.  There is no need for a POV and multiple chapters here- if you really think the dragon burning Quentyn is such a cool moment and needs to be on the page then make him a prologue or epilogue.  

And Vic is one of my favorite POVs, he's hilarious and bad-ass and the perfect mix of awful irredeemable villain and very slightly sympathetic but it's another POV that is entirely unnecessary to me.  And I get that we're only talking about a few chapters for each POV, but these chapters add up- in light of all the issues finishing ADWD and not even being able to include the climactic fight the book seems to want to build up to, I can't seriously defend the inclusion of multiple POVs for these characters, when GRRM needed to be putting in serious work in Winterfell and Mereen to get to where he needed to be.  

For all we know, George did try to tell the story using other PoVs and it didn't work out. Let's say he didn't give Quentin any chapters. You keep expecting him for the e book because you have no idea where he is, and when he shows up you know next to nothing about him. He doesn't interact with Dany much; whatever reasons she finds to spurn him feel like they were made up on the spot. In fact, you can read Dany VIII in ADwD and try to imagine that's the first time you see Quentin. Wouldn't that trigger an even bigger "what the fuck was the point" reaction? And then you don't get to see how the dragons are loosed, but someone awkwardly explains it in one of Barristan's chapters.

Having Quentin as a PoV just lets you understand that side of the story better, as opposed to simply being slapped with the plot points. At the end of the day it's only 4 chapters.

But, like I said, I expect some of these "questionable" PoVs to provide essential twists later on:

1. Quentin as a lead in to Mellario, who I believe will be the perfumed seneshal and Dany's treason for blood. She'll start out as a distant ally because Andrey Dalt would have delivered her news about the Master Plan from Doran, only to concoct a brutal and vile betrayal when she finds out how Quentin died. And, like I said, this will directly lead to Braavos losing faith in Dany as a potentially positive force for Essos.

2. Brienne will be Azor Ahai. If Jon leaves Westeros and Dany never arrives, it makes a lot more sense. She already has a "magic sword" "fit for a hero". Oathkeeper was already infused with an undisclosed substance intended to tint it read. Who knows what properties it gained from that? Who knows how it will react in contact with a fire wight's blood? Maybe it will steal that flame that kept Beric alive and was later passed to Cat. Ned's valyrian steel going through Ned's wife's heart would also be a technical (if not complete) parallel to Nissa Nissa. And there is Jaime's dream as well, so it could totally work.

3. Victarion will be the valonqar. Not obvious right now, but if Cersei marries Euron it would suddenly be on the table. Victarion wants Euron to pay for making him kill his wife, and it frustrates him that his brother is older and thus is owed respect and obedience according to the laws of the land. Think about it, why would Maggy have called Cersei's killer "the valonqar"? Likely because she didn't know how else to identify him. "Little brother" could be something he indirectly identifies himself as while killing Cersei, by ranting about his "older brother", or blaming his "older brother" for his actions. If Euron is part of the vision too, Maggy could have taken him for a valyrian because of his armor and/or the dragon Victarion will steal for him, so she assumed the killer was valyrian as well and named him in that language.

[Nevets]

The big problem is that there are too many story lines and too many POVs whose stories have to be serviced.  If you want an exercise in futility, try dividing the 20(!) current POVs among 73 chapters (the number in ADWD).  It doesn't work.  Somebody's story (probably several somebodies) is going to get short shrift.  Wrestling with this dilemma is probably what is taking so long.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, The Coconut God said:

3. Victarion will be the valonqar. Not obvious right now, but if Cersei marries Euron it would suddenly be on the table. Victarion wants Euron to pay for making him kill his wife, and it frustrates him that his brother is older and thus is owed respect and obedience according to the laws of the land. Think about it, why would Maggy have called Cersei's killer "the valonqar"? Likely because she didn't know how else to identify him. "Little brother" could be something he indirectly identifies himself as while killing Cersei, by ranting about his "older brother", or blaming his "older brother" for his actions. If Euron is part of the vision too, Maggy could have taken him for a valyrian because of his armor and/or the dragon Victarion will steal for him, so she assumed the killer was valyrian as well and named him in that language.

I'm 90% certain Victarion is doomed in the next book. Moqorro is clearly playing him like a fiddle and I'm almost certain that he's rigged the dragon horn. I'd honestly be shocked if he returns from Essos.

[divica]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

I'm 90% certain Victarion is doomed in the next book. Moqorro is clearly playing him like a fiddle and I'm almost certain that he's rigged the dragon horn. I'd honestly be shocked if he returns from Essos.

If victarion survives being poisoned by euron's maester, moqorro's treatment, the magical horn twice rigged, the dragon's reaction and the shit show happening in meereen then the guy is unkilable. I think only tyrion would have a bigger plot armor.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

I've heard that GRRM had to rewrite Jon's storyline almost completely in ADWD. What was that about?

[Lady Rhodes]

21 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I've heard that GRRM had to rewrite Jon's storyline almost completely in ADWD. What was that about?

I've never heard this. Was this in an interview?

On the topic of the texts as a whole, by and large, the best, most longstanding, frequently revered literary works are works that can be read with multiple lenses.  There is the view of the narrative story - the plot, counterplot, climax, and resolution.  But then there are the symbolic, thematic plots. So, what may seem unnecessary to the narrative story - not bad necessarily, but like "I would much rather you cut this out and I would have got the story two years sooner!" unnecessary - are vital to the overall thematic or symbolic plot that the author has in mind.  GRRM's views are war are not secret and I think that is what he is showing in some of the "slow" or "unnecessary" arcs in the story.  Slaver's Bay seems to be a tale in conquering people of whose traditions and customs you know nothing of (years ago, I heard it mentioned that the first Gulf War and then the Iraq war influenced the arc of Slaver's Bay, and I can see how that would apply) The overall theme in the Bay seems to be that there were grave humanitarian injustices that were occurring but was it Dany's place to fix it?
I think the same arc is happening in Dorne with Arianne and Aegon and the set up for Dance of Dragons Part II, Areo and Doran and the overripe blood oranges.  Doran has been so fixated on carefully planned justice and revenge but also saving innocent lives of children.  I, sadly, think that the theme for the Dorne plot is that innocent people suffer and die in war.
And the Others?  They are the mindless warriors that fight without any idea what they are fighting for.
This whole series is sad and somber. The worst part is I have a theory that by the end, the whole series will end with the note of pointlessness - this was all for nothing.  I think it will be revealed that in someway, the Others will eventually return, and I think it is possible for Dany to have a child with another Targaryen (maybe Jon?) and for it to end with the child having the madness.  All of the fighting, all of the deaths, everything everyone fought and gave up and died for...was for nothing.  That is the pointlessness of war in GRRM's view, I think. 

I'm sorry, I kinda went out a rant here.  But I think everyone gets where I was going.  Two plots - narrative and thematic and what seems cool but unnecessary to one is vital to the other.

[Maia]

On 17 December 2018 at 10:55 PM, Nevets said:

The big problem is that there are too many story lines and too many POVs whose stories have to be serviced.  If you want an exercise in futility, try dividing the 20(!) current POVs among 73 chapters (the number in ADWD). 

Why would every PoV need a story of their own?

IMHO, the greatest part of the problem is that 3 of the main AGoT PoVs and Sam can't do what they were supposed to do and provide us with the windows into events ditto, because the 5-year-gap that would have allowed them to gain necessessary ages and skills to become active and get places, was axed. If Arya had her 5 years with the Faceless Men, we might have been seeing a lot of events in Essos  or wherever necessary through her eyes, for instance, because she would have had skills to move around dangerous territories  without getting enslaved or killed and inveigle herself into entourages of influential figures, so that she could observe and covertly affect important events. We could have seen important events happening where there is no PoV through Bran - who at 13-14 would have had maturity to understand what is going on, unlike now when he is still a little kid.  If Sam had the 5 years to become a maester, he may have been the one going to Meereeen instead of Marwyn and we may have seen the events there through him, instead Quentyn/Barristan. Sansa may have believably built up a power-base of her own or at least attracted some useful people and learned intrigue from LF. Etc.

GRRM's biggest problem is that he seems unable to quickly progress the timeline during the narrative or to finish a book in a place where the characters could take a breather for a few years and learn enough to make their ability to play their appointed roles even remotely  plausible, instead of totally contrived. At least Bran is paired up with Bloodraven - if GRRM doesn't want to make his contribuitions into cheap deus-ex-weirwood, he should keep the 2 working together, with BR providing knowledge and maturity, while Bran provides raw talent and fresh view of things, with very judiciously doled out moments of inspiration. But Sansa and Arya seem doomed to turn into side-characters or become totally unbelievable. Ditto Sam - well, he was already a side-character, but with potential for growth that is now going to remain sadly unfullfilled.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I've never heard this. Was this in an interview?

Someone mentioned it in a discussion I read a while ago. GRRM made some changes in a Jon chapter, which led to changes in a previous chapter, which led to changes in the chapter before that, and so on.

[Lady Rhodes]

4 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Someone mentioned it in a discussion I read a while ago. GRRM made some changes in a Jon chapter, which led to changes in a previous chapter, which led to changes in the chapter before that, and so on.

Hmmm interesting. I will have to review.