What do you think caused Martin to loose his grip on the material?

[BlackLightning]

On 9/27/2018 at 10:29 AM, argonak said:

I don't really mind the extra POVs, as long as they're sticking with the main plot.  Its interesting to see how Cersei feels about things sometimes (and to find out she's a completly loonely narcasist), as long as its relating to the main plot.

Its easy to criticize I know, but I feel like the entire ironborn and Dorne plots should have just been completly cut out and made for a much better story.   Maybe then GRRM might have been able to finish more than a book a decade.  I want him to be sccessful and finish his story, its always a bit depressing to think about ASOIAF and remmeber its just lieing there unfinished, with the messy 4 and 5 books the most current material.

Absolutely not. The show did that and it completely fell on its face.

No, the Ironborn and Dornish plots are going to be extremely important in the final act. The War of Five Kings really hurt; if there is to be any more man vs. man conflict in addition to the man vs. nature (aka The Others) conflict that threatens to destroy the world, you need a lot of fresh soldiers. And they can't all just come in from Essos.

That's why the Ironborn are taking it up a notch, that's why the Tyrells have been OP, that's why Sansa is in the Vale, that's why Dorne is slowly beginning to take the reigns.

No soldiers, no war.

On 9/26/2018 at 11:16 AM, argonak said:

I think instead of a five year jump, he could have just written a bunch of intermittent POVs during the 5 years, and moved the timeline quickly while still keeping tabs on some of the important characters who wouldn't be standing still.  But that would require him to be a little more specific with the timeline so the reader can follow better, which he has so far not wanted to do.

But failing that, he could easily have gotten the plotline back on track; he just doesn't want to.  He clearly wants to write about Brienne meandering about on her Don Quixote quest.  He wants to write about Tyrion sinking into a mire of PTSD and depression.  He's the author, he gets to write about whatever he wants, and these are the things he wants to write about.

Some of the coolest events in the story have happened off page, because he wanted it that way.  And sometimes events which ought to be boring and pointless are sometimes really good pieces of writing.  I enjoy Brienne's questing for example, when I can put aside the fact that it appears completly pointless in comparison to the greater storyline.  Its an interesting piece of character drama.  But these are things that should have belonged in secondary books after the main plotline was completed.  Things to bring us back to the world of westeros after we've sated ourselves on the feast of high adventure. 

Not distractions on the main path that just bulk out word count.

A five year time jump is way too much for a story like this. Always was. Five years of Cersei destabilizing the country, five years of Brienne walking in circles, five years of Tyrion becoming a miniature, alcoholic version of Tywin, five years of Jon brooding about the Others (who still haven't shown up yet) and five years of Stannis doing absolutely nothing about any of it?

No way. He should have just shortened it to one year and have the established adult characters and new characters take over. It works out for everyone.

• The kids (Sansa, Arya, Bran, Jon, Daenerys) can be peripheral characters seen (or heard of) occasionally through the eyes and ears of others, honing their skills and maturing off-screen.
• Samwell, Theon, Brienne, the Martells, the Lannisters, and the Greyjoys can all do what they did in Feast and Dance (but please let Brienne come close to finding one of the girls!!!)
• Stannis' campaign can be told through the eyes of Davos, Melisandre or even Shireen
• Tyrion can spend some time in Pentos drinking his life away, think about getting revenge on all the people who wronged him, having nightmares and aimlessly taking his frustrations out on other people

This new version Feast could have taken a year to develop. The only problems here is that Daenerys, Jon and the plotlines that they carry are way too important to the story. They are also older than the Stark kids. You can fix this by having Ser Barristan can serve as a POV for the activities of the Queen of Meereen and having Melisandre/Davos/maybe Shireen be our limited POV for the Night's Watch Lord Commander.

It'd be nice if we'd get a Tyrell POV too. My vote is for Margaery but Loras wouldn't have been a bad choice.

This new version of Feast could have ended exactly where Feast had ended with the notable additions of Tyrion, Barristan, Melisandre and Davos (maybe Shireen too). Stannis' story could have ended with Davos helping him fix up the Nightfort and then going into the mountains to treat with the mountain clans; Melisandre could have witnessed Jon's trip to Mole's Town and then revealed that Mance is alive, Tyrion could have finally gotten up off his but, Barristan's Meereen story can end with Dany getting surrounded by enemies; Tyrion can finally decide to get up off his butt and help Illyrio and Varys; and Theon returning to Winterfell with the Boltons.

Dance could have picked up from there and throw back in the Stark kids.

[Ser Maverick]

We have to consider that the first book was started after years of brainstorming. He probably had a decent layout for the beginning of the story but had little planned for where to go afterward.

And of course, his enthusiasm for the series has likely gone way down. This is a project he's been working on for over 22 years. He consistently refers to the series as a weight on his back rather than something he's excited to finish. So at that point, it doesn't really matter how many corners he's written himself into if he can't come up with anything to get himself out of them.

I also think he respects the series too much to just give us something more quickly, if he considers it unworthy. I honestly feel bad for him, but at the same time, I need some answers.

Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever get much closure with this series.

[M.Alhazred]

On 9/26/2018 at 2:22 PM, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Agreed.  I always felt that Qynten Martell, Brienne, and several other POV in the AFFC/ADWD belongs in a "extended edition" or "director's cut" version of the books but not the "theatrical release" edition.

Arya, Bran, Jon, Sam, Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Sansa, Theon, Davos, are the only POVs we needed, maybe with Aeron to see Euron. That plus a few individual chapters like Melisandre and Arriane.  The only chapter we needed from Dany is her last one, the pit scene can be told from Tyrion's perspective.

That's it.  We didnt' need Brienne, Asha, Quentyn, Victarion. And Jon, Tyrion, Cersei, Davos, and Jaime could have some of their chapters shortened/eliminated.  Put in the conclusion of the battle of ice and battle of fire. You'd have had a well paced, dynamite ADWD.

 

 

 

Ah,that's a double edged sword there.Because then there would be a ton of sites and threads here and at other places demanding to know what happened to Brienne and the others,I guess that could be saved for Dream or the publisher's coulda divided it like the UK publisher did for Storm.

[Cas Stark]

13 hours ago, Ser Maverick said:

We have to consider that the first book was started after years of brainstorming. He probably had a decent layout for the beginning of the story but had little planned for where to go afterward.

And of course, his enthusiasm for the series has likely gone way down. This is a project he's been working on for over 22 years. He consistently refers to the series as a weight on his back rather than something he's excited to finish. So at that point, it doesn't really matter how many corners he's written himself into if he can't come up with anything to get himself out of them.

I also think he respects the series too much to just give us something more quickly, if he considers it unworthy. I honestly feel bad for him, but at the same time, I need some answers.

Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever get much closure with this series.

Even if we go with the notion that he had the first three books somewhat 'outlined' in his head in the years before he started writing got...it has still been almost 20 years since Storm of swords, so even if he hadn't the rest of the story similarly laid out in his head, that doesn't' really explain how in the subsequent 18 years he still doesn't seem to have it done.  Even if Feast was a placeholder because he didn't have the rest of the story thought through, again that came out in 2005, 13 years ago, that is more than enough time to 'brainstorm ' the story from there to the end.  But it still looks as if he hasn't done it, as if he still has not regained any control over his own material.  Dance certainly didn't fix much

[Ser Maverick]

7 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Even if we go with the notion that he had the first three books somewhat 'outlined' in his head in the years before he started writing got...it has still been almost 20 years since Storm of swords, so even if he hadn't the rest of the story similarly laid out in his head, that doesn't' really explain how in the subsequent 18 years he still doesn't seem to have it done.  Even if Feast was a placeholder because he didn't have the rest of the story thought through, again that came out in 2005, 13 years ago, that is more than enough time to 'brainstorm ' the story from there to the end.  But it still looks as if he hasn't done it, as if he still has not regained any control over his own material.  Dance certainly didn't fix much

This is what I was trying to address in the rest of my post but I probably didn’t elaborate enough.

What I was trying to say was that he likely ran out of steam. This is a guy that primarily seems interested in sci-fi and comic books. I’m not gonna say he doesn’t care about the series anymore or anything, but he may have had a creative spark in the 90s that passed years ago.

Also the fact that this is his most significant work, and he probably wants it to be as perfect as it can be, is likely a factor. 

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

22 hours ago, M.Alhazred said:

Ah,that's a double edged sword there.Because then there would be a ton of sites and threads here and at other places demanding to know what happened to Brienne and the others,I guess that could be saved for Dream or the publisher's coulda divided it like the UK publisher did for Storm.

Brienne would still show up at the last Jaime chapter,  and what happened to her can be summed up with "I looked for Lady Sansa in many places, and I was eventually captured by the BWB."  

We didn't need 9 chapters of her fumbling around.  Now I'm not saying those chapters are bad. I would have enjoyed reading them as part of an "extended cut" version of the books. But those chapters, among others, have been hell on the pacing of the story and not to mention take author's time and attention away from the central plot, which all fans want him to "get on with it" at this point.

[Amris]

32 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Brienne would still show up at the last Jaime chapter,  and what happened to her can be summed up with "I looked for Lady Sansa in many places, and I was eventually captured by the BWB."  

We didn't need 9 chapters of her fumbling around.  Now I'm not saying those chapters are bad. I would have enjoyed reading them as part of an "extended cut" version of the books. But those chapters, among others, have been hell on the pacing of the story and not to mention take author's time and attention away from the central plot, which all fans want him to "get on with it" at this point.

[argonak]

On 9/29/2018 at 9:31 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Absolutely not. The show did that and it completely fell on its face.

No, the Ironborn and Dornish plots are going to be extremely important in the final act. The War of Five Kings really hurt; if there is to be any more man vs. man conflict in addition to the man vs. nature (aka The Others) conflict that threatens to destroy the world, you need a lot of fresh soldiers. And they can't all just come in from Essos.

That's why the Ironborn are taking it up a notch, that's why the Tyrells have been OP, that's why Sansa is in the Vale, that's why Dorne is slowly beginning to take the reigns.

No soldiers, no war.

A five year time jump is way too much for a story like this. Always was. Five years of Cersei destabilizing the country, five years of Brienne walking in circles, five years of Tyrion becoming a miniature, alcoholic version of Tywin, five years of Jon brooding about the Others (who still haven't shown up yet) and five years of Stannis doing absolutely nothing about any of it?

No way. He should have just shortened it to one year and have the established adult characters and new characters take over. It works out for everyone.

• The kids (Sansa, Arya, Bran, Jon, Daenerys) can be peripheral characters seen (or heard of) occasionally through the eyes and ears of others, honing their skills and maturing off-screen.
• Samwell, Theon, Brienne, the Martells, the Lannisters, and the Greyjoys can all do what they did in Feast and Dance (but please let Brienne come close to finding one of the girls!!!)
• Stannis' campaign can be told through the eyes of Davos, Melisandre or even Shireen
• Tyrion can spend some time in Pentos drinking his life away, think about getting revenge on all the people who wronged him, having nightmares and aimlessly taking his frustrations out on other people

This new version Feast could have taken a year to develop. The only problems here is that Daenerys, Jon and the plotlines that they carry are way too important to the story. They are also older than the Stark kids. You can fix this by having Ser Barristan can serve as a POV for the activities of the Queen of Meereen and having Melisandre/Davos/maybe Shireen be our limited POV for the Night's Watch Lord Commander.

It'd be nice if we'd get a Tyrell POV too. My vote is for Margaery but Loras wouldn't have been a bad choice.

This new version of Feast could have ended exactly where Feast had ended with the notable additions of Tyrion, Barristan, Melisandre and Davos (maybe Shireen too). Stannis' story could have ended with Davos helping him fix up the Nightfort and then going into the mountains to treat with the mountain clans; Melisandre could have witnessed Jon's trip to Mole's Town and then revealed that Mance is alive, Tyrion could have finally gotten up off his but, Barristan's Meereen story can end with Dany getting surrounded by enemies; Tyrion can finally decide to get up off his butt and help Illyrio and Varys; and Theon returning to Winterfell with the Boltons.

Dance could have picked up from there and throw back in the Stark kids.

I don't think soldiers are going to matter in the end, they're not likely to win against the others with brute force.  you don't beat a glacier by pouring water on it.

Anyway, we're free to dissagree, some people like differnet things.  Personally, I consider all the digression from the main storyline to be monotous on a first read.  It was only after finishing book 3 and waiting 6 or 7 years that I was able to put up with Feast, and then Dance still bored me to tears.  In places they're just so tedious and meandering with so little pay off that I keep putting the book down and never going back to it.

[nickdt]

I think the introduction of the (F)Aegon plotline has caused him to lose grip, since it is to late in the series that he can fully flesh him out without running into other problems with already established storylines, which basically also makes the Dornish Plotline potentially problematic. 

He wrote all those things with the 5-year gap in mind. Now that doesn't exist anymore, he has a problem tying things together. 

He has to speed up training for Bran with The Three Eyed Raved, he has to speed up Arya's training, he has to speed up Sams training in the Citadel. 

But he also has too work in battles that would potentially would have happened partially off-screen, like with the Iron Born and (F)Aegons landing. 

[Cas Stark]

4 hours ago, nickdt said:

I think the introduction of the (F)Aegon plotline has caused him to lose grip, since it is to late in the series that he can fully flesh him out without running into other problems with already established storylines, which basically also makes the Dornish Plotline potentially problematic. 

He wrote all those things with the 5-year gap in mind. Now that doesn't exist anymore, he has a problem tying things together. 

He has to speed up training for Bran with The Three Eyed Raved, he has to speed up Arya's training, he has to speed up Sams training in the Citadel. 

But he also has too work in battles that would potentially would have happened partially off-screen, like with the Iron Born and (F)Aegons landing. 

I agree the Aegon plot is challenging...if he doesn't devote enough time to it, it will feel rushed and inconsequential, if he does devote a lot of time, assuming Aegon still isn't end game material, then its still a red herring/dead end of sorts and taking away time and energy from the key characters.

[M.Alhazred]

9 hours ago, nickdt said:

I think the introduction of the (F)Aegon plotline has caused him to lose grip, since it is to late in the series that he can fully flesh him out without running into other problems with already established storylines, which basically also makes the Dornish Plotline potentially problematic. 

He wrote all those things with the 5-year gap in mind. Now that doesn't exist anymore, he has a problem tying things together. 

He has to speed up training for Bran with The Three Eyed Raved, he has to speed up Arya's training, he has to speed up Sams training in the Citadel. 

But he also has too work in battles that would potentially would have happened partially off-screen, like with the Iron Born and (F)Aegons landing. 

Ageon wasn't even supposed to show up this early?

[Rhodan]

19 minutes ago, M.Alhazred said:

Ageon wasn't even supposed to show up this early?

Well, he was supposed to show up after the gap, I think. But generally... Would it have been so much different?

[M.Alhazred]

18 hours ago, Rhodan said:

Well, he was supposed to show up after the gap, I think. But generally... Would it have been so much different?

I never knew the gap messed with the storyline that much.GRRM downplayed it alot.

[The Coconut God]

On 10/1/2018 at 7:03 AM, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Brienne would still show up at the last Jaime chapter,  and what happened to her can be summed up with "I looked for Lady Sansa in many places, and I was eventually captured by the BWB."  

We didn't need 9 chapters of her fumbling around.  Now I'm not saying those chapters are bad. I would have enjoyed reading them as part of an "extended cut" version of the books. But those chapters, among others, have been hell on the pacing of the story and not to mention take author's time and attention away from the central plot, which all fans want him to "get on with it" at this point.

That would be a valid argument if we knew for sure what the central plot will be and what role Brienne will play in it. That's my problem with most of the criticism against Feast & Dance. People assume they can tear apart certain characters and arcs because they "know" they won't be important. The proper approach is to say that they should be important in order for the series to be good.

Brienne's chapters in Feast achieve two things besides leading to the LSH vs Jaime plot: character development for her and a detailed description of the current situation in the Crownlands and Riverlands. In order for this to pay off, and potentially be a lot more enjoyable on re-reads, the following things need to happen:

- Brienne needs to play a more important role in Winds & Dream than simply being a satellite to Jaime.

- Something needs to happen in the Crownlands and Riverlands that capitalizes on the set-up from Brienne's chapters.

The first thing I can deduce from this is that the Others will reach at least that far south. A lot of the imagery in Brienne'd chapters seems to foreshadow this, and in fact she goes through a progression of encounters that seem to be leading up to the Others: the specter of poverty, ghost stories about squishers and talking heads, her witnessing and causing death perhaps for the first time, corpses strewn around everywhere, an inhuman, flesh-eating monster and in the end an actual wight.

The second, more daring prediction is that Brienne will serve as our impromptu Hero with a blazing sword and she will be the one to bring back the dawn, not Jon or Dany (they have large enough political roles to play). Think about it. The only way for Brienne and Jaime to get away from LSH is if they kill her, and the only way not to get killed by the BwB if they do that is if it looks like R'hllor himself sanctioned the act. Therefore, I believe that Brienne will kill LSH with Oathkeeper, and because of a combination of random factors - the processes used by Tobho Mott to make the sword ripple red, Brienne's anguish at breaking her vows and the fact that it's Ned's valyrian steel going through Cat's heart - the sword will catch fire the same way Lightbringer did. If that happens, her chapters will be viewed in a new light.

[Amris]

14 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

[snip]

Brienne's chapters in Feast achieve two things besides leading to the LSH vs Jaime plot: character development for her and a detailed description of the current situation in the Crownlands and Riverlands. In order for this to pay off, and potentially be a lot more enjoyable on re-reads, the following things need to happen:

- Brienne needs to play a more important role in Winds & Dream than simply being a satellite to Jaime.

- Something needs to happen in the Crownlands and Riverlands that capitalizes on the set-up from Brienne's chapters.

[snip]

Like you I think that GRRM uses her as a spotlight to show us certain events in the Riverlands where he otherwise wouldn't have a POV.

And that's exactly one of the problems I have with the Brienne story!

Once I notice that a character is used by the author not to tell their story in it's own right but rather as a tool to enhance other storylines later on that takes the tension and grip out of this particular character. Because it means the character is constructed around the premise of getting her to certain locations (that we readers are supposed to be shown or told about) at certain times. In other words: The char is basically (ab)used as an infodump. Which leads to the feeling that the char's story is not dependent on her own actions but rather on what info the author wants to show us at any give moment.

When I notice such a thing the tension goes away for me. The story makes me yawn and think 'awww - give me the damn info already and get on with the real story.'

On a sidenote: There was a similar thing going on with the Arya storyline when Arya was wandering about in the Riverlands. It felt like Arya had no agenda over her own story at that point and rather being shoved this way and that whereever a POV was needed. GRRM needed a POV in Harrenhal? So that's where Arya had to show up. He needed a POV at High Heart? So that's where she had to show up. He needed to tell about the Hound? Let's have Arya run into him. Once as a reader I notice such a pattern that kinda takes the fun out of it for me.

Luckily that's gone now that Arya is in Braavos and onboard her own story again.

[BlackLightning]

On 10/1/2018 at 10:19 AM, argonak said:

I don't think soldiers are going to matter in the end, they're not likely to win against the others with brute force.  you don't beat a glacier by pouring water on it.

Soldiers absolutely will matter in the end. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

If you think Daenerys is going to arrive and everyone is just going to bow down to her and let her sit the Iron Throne, then why has she spent so much time acquiring wealth, armies and actual real-life experience? No, man, there's clearly going to be a fight; a fight between her and the people of the Seven Kingdoms. Who's she going to pit the Unsullied and Dothraki against?

Small children with broomsticks?

On 10/2/2018 at 3:02 AM, Rhodan said:

Well, he was supposed to show up after the gap, I think. But generally... Would it have been so much different?

No, not really.

But, it all depends. Would it had been Daenerys who was ruling from the Iron Throne when Aegon showed up? Then, yeah, that's a pretty big difference.

On 10/1/2018 at 10:19 AM, argonak said:

I don't think soldiers are going to matter in the end, they're not likely to win against the others with brute force.  you don't beat a glacier by pouring water on it.

Anyway, we're free to dissagree, some people like differnet things.  Personally, I consider all the digression from the main storyline to be monotous on a first read.  It was only after finishing book 3 and waiting 6 or 7 years that I was able to put up with Feast, and then Dance still bored me to tears.  In places they're just so tedious and meandering with so little pay off that I keep putting the book down and never going back to it.

Main storyline? What main storyline?

There are THREE main storylines:

1. the "Winter is Coming" story (aka the song of ice) - everything dealing with the far north and the Wall from the skinchanging to the Others, the old gods and the Children of the Forest to even the importance of Winterfell and the dispossession of the Starks
2. the "Fire and Blood" story (aka the song of fire) - almost everything to do with Dany and the east: from the Targaryen family history to the dragons and the dragon dreams to the red god, shadowbinding, and the blood magic. Probably even the Faceless Men.
3. the Game of Thrones (Tully vs. Arryn vs. Stark vs. Greyjoy vs. Tyrell vs. Baratheon vs. Lannister vs. Martell)

The Greyjoys have maintained a big presence in the game of throne story, the fire-and-blood story and the winter-is-coming story.

The Dornish are obviously adding another, fresher element into the game of thrones story. Especially since Arianne - the future of House Martell - is the only one in Westeros who cares enough about Daenerys to pay attention to what's happening overseas; notably, Princess Arianne has a pretty low opinion of Daenerys Stormborn.

Daenerys is probably going to end up breaking the wheel in Essos (aka nearly obliterating everything in the process) and everyone is going to want a before-and-after pic.

[Tagganaro]

6 hours ago, Amris said:

Like you I think that GRRM uses her as a spotlight to show us certain events in the Riverlands where he otherwise wouldn't have a POV.

And that's exactly one of the problems I have with the Brienne story!

Once I notice that a character is used by the author not to tell their story in it's own right but rather as a tool to enhance other storylines later on that takes the tension and grip out of this particular character. Because it means the character is constructed around the premise of getting her to certain locations (that we readers are supposed to be shown or told about) at certain times. In other words: The char is basically (ab)used as an infodump. Which leads to the feeling that the char's story is not dependent on her own actions but rather on what info the author wants to show us at any give moment.

When I notice such a thing the tension goes away for me. The story makes me yawn and think 'awww - give me the damn info already and get on with the real story.'

On a sidenote: There was a similar thing going on with the Arya storyline when Arya was wandering about in the Riverlands. It felt like Arya had no agenda over her own story at that point and rather being shoved this way and that whereever a POV was needed. GRRM needed a POV in Harrenhal? So that's where Arya had to show up. He needed a POV at High Heart? So that's where she had to show up. He needed to tell about the Hound? Let's have Arya run into him. Once as a reader I notice such a pattern that kinda takes the fun out of it for me.

Luckily that's gone now that Arya is in Braavos and onboard her own story again.

This exactly.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of interesting characters Brienne meets and the look into the Riverlands is appreciated, but it's just so expositiony or infodumpy.

7 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

That would be a valid argument if we knew for sure what the central plot will be and what role Brienne will play in it. That's my problem with most of the criticism against Feast & Dance. People assume they can tear apart certain characters and arcs because they "know" they won't be important. The proper approach is to say that they should be important in order for the series to be good.

I think it's still a valid argument whether Brienne becomes hyper important or not.  Look, Brienne can end up becoming Azor Ahai for all I care but it still doesn't make the time spent with Nimble Dick any more worthwhile.  Especially factoring in that up-front, we know Brienne is following a false lead since we know where Arya and Sansa are.  And like I said above, I actually find Nimble Dick to be an entertaining character and there is something to like about seeing Brienne's hardened suspicious attitude soften towards the guy before he is tragically killed.  And on his own, Nimble Dick isn't too bad as far as Brienne's overall arc goes in AFFC.  The issue is that you then add Septon Meribald, Ser Illifer and that other hedge knight, and all these other minor characters, all while we know up-front that Brienne is on a fool's errand, it becomes pretty tiring for me, especially on re-read but almost just as bad first read where you just want stuff to happen.

Quote

 

Brienne's chapters in Feast achieve two things besides leading to the LSH vs Jaime plot: character development for her and a detailed description of the current situation in the Crownlands and Riverlands. In order for this to pay off, and potentially be a lot more enjoyable on re-reads, the following things need to happen:

- Brienne needs to play a more important role in Winds & Dream than simply being a satellite to Jaime.

- Something needs to happen in the Crownlands and Riverlands that capitalizes on the set-up from Brienne's chapters.

 

I think Brienne will become more important in her own right, I just don't think that this will justify her chapters essentially being an infodump for what is going on in the Riverlands.  If Brienne's whole journey in AFFC was devoted to setting up the LSH vs Jaime plot and you cut out a few of the extraneous chapters, I think she'd have a pretty great set-up there.  And then when you consider that LSH and all the Brotherhood is really all about a response to what happened in the Riverlands during TWO5K, you could get the description of the Riverlands anyway.  The issue for me is that it just seems like GRRM embracing his worst impulses here of going off on wild tangents about characters/locations that he should be writing short stories about.

Quote

The first thing I can deduce from this is that the Others will reach at least that far south. A lot of the imagery in Brienne'd chapters seems to foreshadow this, and in fact she goes through a progression of encounters that seem to be leading up to the Others: the specter of poverty, ghost stories about squishers and talking heads, her witnessing and causing death perhaps for the first time, corpses strewn around everywhere, an inhuman, flesh-eating monster and in the end an actual wight.

You don't really need to have Brienne's chapters to deduce this- Jaime's chapters imply this as well as a dream by Dany IIRC.  The Others will make it to the Riverlands.

 

[Cas Stark]

we already knew what was going on in the riverlands, we already saw the terrible effects of the war, in book 2, Arya's journey.  i would also dispute that we saw any 'character development' from brienne outside the last two chapters, she's the same as she ever was, honest to a fault, virtuous, uses violence only in service of a higher moral and only when necessary.  so, despite that many people liked her chapters, i don't see a way around the fact that outside of the last two, they are the story treading water, and I very much doubt that there are any bombshell secrets/revelations that will 'prove' all that wandering around looking for the red headed gal was necessary.  Brienne's chapters are Exhibit A in the case that Martin lost control of the story. Dany and Tyrion's interminable, long, dull and repetitive chapters are Exhibit B, since it shows even the main characters are damaged by his inability to move the story forward.

[BlackLightning]

7 hours ago, Amris said:

Like you I think that GRRM uses her as a spotlight to show us certain events in the Riverlands where he otherwise wouldn't have a POV.

And that's exactly one of the problems I have with the Brienne story!

Once I notice that a character is used by the author not to tell their story in it's own right but rather as a tool to enhance other storylines later on that takes the tension and grip out of this particular character. Because it means the character is constructed around the premise of getting her to certain locations (that we readers are supposed to be shown or told about) at certain times. In other words: The char is basically (ab)used as an infodump. Which leads to the feeling that the char's story is not dependent on her own actions but rather on what info the author wants to show us at any give moment.

When I notice such a thing the tension goes away for me. The story makes me yawn and think 'awww - give me the damn info already and get on with the real story.'

On a sidenote: There was a similar thing going on with the Arya storyline when Arya was wandering about in the Riverlands. It felt like Arya had no agenda over her own story at that point and rather being shoved this way and that wherever a POV was needed. GRRM needed a POV in Harrenhal? So that's where Arya had to show up. He needed a POV at High Heart? So that's where she had to show up. He needed to tell about the Hound? Let's have Arya run into him. Once as a reader I notice such a pattern that kinda takes the fun out of it for me.

Luckily that's gone now that Arya is in Braavos and onboard her own story again.

Dude: Arya wandering around the Riverlands is her own story. Frankly, it doesn't matter if she's being shoved this way and that because GRRM needed a POV there. The fact of the matter is that she WAS being shoved this way and that. And I don't see anything wrong with GRRM putting a POV where it needs to be when it needs to be there; it's his storytelling style.

Complaining about GRRM's POV shuffling and POV characters becoming glorified cameramen is like complaining that J.K. Rowling's decision to write the Harry Potter series in third person limited from Harry's point-of-view created plot holes: that's a natural side-effect of the writing style they chose.

Arya would have never left for Braavos if she hadn't been stuck in the middle of a warzone. She learned a lot from her time at Harrenhal; she learned a lot from the Hound. We learned a lot from her time at High Heart. Without all of that experience, she wouldn't have been tough enough to put up with everything that's happened in Braavos. And if she hadn't gone to Braavos, she would have never had the chance to become the psychic, almost-shape-shifting ninja that she is becoming.

Hell, the mere reason why Brienne is roaming the Crownlands and the Riverlands is because Arya roamed the Crownlands and Riverlands first. It's also a given considering that the Riverlands is -- I don't know -- right smack-dab in the middle of the country.

 

I'll tell you right now the Riverlands - which looked a lot like lawless hell-zone - are going to get screwed over even more when the weather worsens, when corpses start to walk around and when Daenerys shows up. They are also the one area that's closest to the Crownlands without any real geographical barriers. Meaning that Aegon will try to cement his rule there first as well.

On 10/1/2018 at 8:56 PM, Cas Stark said:

I agree the Aegon plot is challenging...if he doesn't devote enough time to it, it will feel rushed and inconsequential, if he does devote a lot of time, assuming Aegon still isn't end game material, then its still a red herring/dead end of sorts and taking away time and energy from the key characters.

True.

However...the basic point of any story (especially one such as this) is to create conflict for your characters, right?

Aegon's presence in the story creates conflict for: Cersei, the Tyrells, Daenerys, the Martells, Tyrion and JonCon. And that's just based off of what we read in Dance and the sample chapters from Winds.

Aegon was also first hinted at in Game and then in Clash. So, it's not like GRRM threw this in at the last-minute to inject some drama. Obviously Varys has been working his own angle for a while and he definitely wasn't telling the truth when he was saying he only cares about "the realm."

Aegon doesn't have to be endgame; he's not a POV character so everything we will learn about him is going to come to us second-hand. Red herring and dead-ends aren't necessarily a bad thing to have in a story. If they are written well, they can make a good story excellent.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

12 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Hell, the mere reason why Brienne is roaming the Crownlands and the Riverlands is because Arya roamed the Crownlands and Riverlands first.

...

Aegon doesn't have to be endgame; he's not a POV character so everything we will learn about him is going to come to us second-hand. Red herring and dead-ends aren't necessarily a bad thing to have in a story. If they are written well, they can make a good story excellent.

 

Yes, because that was the plot she was given to follow to get her back to LSH. Unfortunately, many readers find this plotline unfulfilling for one reason or another or, like me, just treat Brienne's chapters like a Dunk 'n Egg story to be enjoyed for the characters and events until she actually gets somewhere.

Brienne could have hooked up with LSH much earlier and then had Jaime come along. If GRRM didn't want to give too much of that situation away (which would at least have been interesting and productive) he could have just limited her chapters. Bran only had three chapters in all of ADwD when we could of had pages of dreams and visions and warging etc, so it was a conscious choice of the author to do it like that.

Barring that idea, GRRM could have gone a radical new direction and had Brienne go to Dorne on Jaime's behalf to see about getting Myrcella back and then getting involved in the Dorne plot for awhile. After either being somehow involved with or hearing about Myrcella's fate, she travels back north to report (w/o Myrcella), only to hear before reaching KL that Jaime is in the Riverlands, so she travels there to eventually meet up with LSH and Jaime. Given all the chapters devoted to her, I think Brienne could have done all that in the time given.

...

I think that fAegon is a replacement for Renly plot-wise in many ways. There was nothing motivating anything south of KL to get more involved than they already are (barring Dorne sitting on their hands until recently) and at this point I don't think the realm realizes the threat that the Ironborn are now going to pose. Now that they are getting hit from both sides in an, up until now, peaceful region, we may get a Riverlands style travelogue out of there too from someone.