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What do you think caused Martin to loose his grip on the material?


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3 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

If there is anything to be optimistic about the splitting of the book, it would be him admitting he needs 3 more instead of 2 more, and the splitting of the POV's giving him a little more wiggle room on the timelines within certain POV's to make stuff line up properly.  In simpler terms, it could mean they have found a solution to the problems he is having.

Exactly. His publishers know there are completed story arcs. This is a great news. Yes, he needs two books before ADOS, but that doesn't mean he'll start writing the "seventh" book, he already had. What does that mean in terms of publishing? I don't know, maybe we'll get a two-volume Winds or two books six months apart. But, I think he won't publish till he reaches the point he envisioned for all the POVs. The fact that his publishers want to split the book indicates he's finishing the remaining POVs. So, to reiterate, I believe there are completed POVs and the rest he's finishing them up, not starting from scratch. 

I get people's pessimism and its compounded by his reticent tendencies. But, the year is not over. I think we'll get more posts where he will state "I'm still working on Winds." I posit we'll get some news around his birthday, I don't know what it will be. He's turning 70 this year which means he'll be reminiscing about his life, success, and ASOIAF.

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32 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

If there is anything to be optimistic about the splitting of the book, it would be him admitting he needs 3 more instead of 2 more, and the splitting of the POV's giving him a little more wiggle room on the timelines within certain POV's to make stuff line up properly.  In simpler terms, it could mean they have found a solution to the problems he is having.

or 4.  Winds. Winds. Spring. Spring.  

*Back to the op, I remain fully convinced that the thing that made him lose his grip was abandoning the 5 year gap.  That's when the massive rewriting and the problems with timing came up, and when he started adding povs to take up space while the main characters treaded water until he figured out how to move it forward w/no gap.

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10 minutes ago, Quaithe from Asshai said:

Exactly. His publishers know there are completed story arcs. This is a great news. Yes, he needs two books before ADOS, but that doesn't mean he'll start writing the "seventh" book, he already had. What does that mean in terms of publishing? I don't know, maybe we'll get a two-volume Winds or two books six months apart. But, I think he won't publish till he reaches the point he envisioned for all the POVs. The fact that his publishers want to split the book indicates he's finishing the remaining POVs. So, to reiterate, I believe there are completed POVs and the rest he's finishing them up, not starting from scratch. 

I get people's pessimism and its compounded by his reticent tendencies. But, the year is not over. I think we'll get more posts where he will state "I'm still working on Winds." I posit we'll get some news around his birthday, I don't know what it will be. He's turning 70 this year which means he'll be reminiscing about his life, success, and ASOIAF.

Except Feast and Dance had very few completed story arcs. Many storylines simply ended randomly with cliff hangers as if Martin figured he had written enough to fill a book. Several storylines even ended without their climaxes, the most notable being the absence of the Battle of Ice and Battle of Fire. The publishers wanting Martin to split Winds may mean he has enough material for one book, but it in no way indicates that he has complete storylines.

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15 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

Except Feast and Dance had very few completed story arcs. Many storylines simply ended randomly with cliff hangers as if Martin figured he had written enough to fill a book. Several storylines even ended without their climaxes, the most notable being the absence of the Battle of Ice and Battle of Fire. The publishers wanting Martin to split Winds may mean he has enough material for one book, but it in no way indicates that he has complete storylines.

Here's my argument, yes Feast/Dance did not end as George wanted, and yes the five year gap caused more problems, but he's not susceptible to his publishers demands of publishing as he was back in 2005 and 2011. He won't publish unless ALL the POVs reach the point he wants them to be at before ADOS. Maybe he has enough material for one book without finishing any of the story lines, but I'm hopeful that's not the case. 

Did he loose his grip on the material?

I don't think so. He's still writing the penultimate books. Remember it took him 11 years to write Feast/Dance. 

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

or 4.  Winds. Winds. Spring. Spring.  

*Back to the op, I remain fully convinced that the thing that made him lose his grip was abandoning the 5 year gap.  That's when the massive rewriting and the problems with timing came up, and when he started adding povs to take up space while the main characters treaded water until he figured out how to move it forward w/no gap.

Even though we clearly have differences of opinion on some things, I agree with you. That isn’t to say that abandoning the gap wasn’t a good choice, but It caused him to rethink how to get his pieces in line. 

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4 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

But it is important to keep in mind that we have gotten World of Ice and Fire and will be getting Fire and Blood during that time as well.  If there is anything to be perturbed about, I would say I wish he would have just finished the series and then worked on these side pieces

I am not saying that he hasn’t run into issues. But people are attacking a perfectly valid approach and Martin for using it. The same approach got us a story we are all enthralled in, and I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. 

I agree about him managing or delegating his distractions much better. The history books could have been handled by someone else with him overseeing and editing the whole thing. I don't begrudge him other creative works like jumping into Dunk n' Egg-ville for a spell or writing scripts for his hit TV show or his editorial/writing work for the anthologies, though. The mind needs a break if you want the entire saga to feel fresh and alive throughout.

As far as his structural writing style, it is not so much an attack as it were, but an objective acknowledgement that by using that style a gardening writer has to let the plot and characters grow as organically as possible, but not wild and weedy. You want your garden lush and full of life, but at some point you need to pluck and prune and guide it to the vision you want your garden to be.

In "unflowery" terms, Martin needs to set up his finishing goals and actively write toward them. Tilling in the garden time is over. He needs to build a trellis. ;)

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1 minute ago, Trefayne said:

It "unflowery" terms, Martin needs to set up his finishing goals and actively write toward them. Tilling in the garden time is over. He needs to build a trellis. ;)

I do appreciate the continuation of the analogy and can agree with you here :)

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5 hours ago, Quaithe from Asshai said:

Here's my argument, yes Feast/Dance did not end as George wanted, and yes the five year gap caused more problems, but he's not susceptible to his publishers demands of publishing as he was back in 2005 and 2011. He won't publish unless ALL the POVs reach the point he wants them to be at before ADOS. Maybe he has enough material for one book without finishing any of the story lines, but I'm hopeful that's not the case. 

Was it his publishers’ decision? It was my impression that the split was a joint decision by Martin and his publishers. He was already an accomplished writer at that point and I can’t see him allowing himself to be pressured into a decision he didn’t agree with.

 

5 hours ago, Quaithe from Asshai said:

Did he loose his grip on the material?

In my opinion, he seems to be struggling quite a bit.

 

5 hours ago, Quaithe from Asshai said:

Remember it took him 11 years to write Feast/Dance. 

As if I could forget.

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2 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

Was it his publishers’ decision? It was my impression that the split was a joint decision by Martin and his publishers. He was already an accomplished writer at that point and I can’t see him allowing himself to be pressured into a decision he didn’t agree with.

 

In my opinion, he seems to be struggling quite a bit.

 

As if I could forget.

He was reluctant at first, but his publishers swayed him. He's not swayed now, otherwise we would've gotten something in 2016 before S6. Even a shorter book would've quenched his fans and his publishers.

In terms of struggle, its nothing new. That's my point. The wait is not getting longer, its not 11 years after dance. The main difference is that we are not getting half of the story ahead. We are getting the whole story at once.

I hope I'm right.

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1 hour ago, Quaithe from Asshai said:

He was reluctant at first, but his publishers swayed him. He's not swayed now, otherwise we would've gotten something in 2016 before S6. Even a shorter book would've quenched his fans and his publishers.

In terms of struggle, its nothing new. That's my point. The wait is not getting longer, its not 11 years after dance. The main difference is that we are not getting half of the story ahead. We are getting the whole story at once.

I hope I'm right.

Best case it will be 8 years after Dance, more likely 9 or 10.  

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20 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Martin needs to set up his finishing goals and actively write toward them

Of course.  Unfortunately, discipline of this sort is just where he has no noticeable gifts, nor has he ever had any.

Assume what Werthead wrote on the first page was accurate: that the first three books -- that we know as AGOT, ACOK, and ASOS -- were originally supposed to be one book.

Well, if so, that was just a ludicrous plan. 

It was far too much material for one book, and that should have been evident from the start.  

At this point, if he really means to finish in two more books -- and he better, if he means to finish ASOIAF at all -- then he simply must write to a target wordcount.  He must know what he's going to accomplish in the narration, and get it done inside that space, certainly at a book level and probably at a chapter level as well. 

We can think of this as painting inside a given canvas.  However creative the artist may be, it just will not do to paint off the canvas, and onto the wall, and around the corner, and down the halls.  You must always know where the boundaries are and operate inside them.  It's a major part of being a skilled artist.

Has GRRM suddenly developed this skill?  We'll see, I guess...

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I get the sense he was initially almost writing for himself, he must not have cared that it expanded, but yes book 1 of the trilogy=3 books, which suggests 9 total.  Not 7, not even 8, and he sure didn't speed the story up in books 4 and 5.

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On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 4:13 AM, Luddsthirdmorph said:

I think it was because of competing series that undercut his tale

 

I am certain that GRRM started out to tell the tale of Ragnarok but derailed when others stole(used) his plot line.

 

He has failed to really either change it or get on with the job.

About a year ago I sat down and wrote out a detailed essay about how we can thank Peter Jackson for sabotaging the completion of ASOIAF.   When you start comparing release dates of the books vs. the movies, and really looking at the underlying plotlines and characters, it seems pretty obvious that GRRM set out to write the next LOTR but Peter Jackson beat him to the punch by bringing the actual LOTR/Hobbit to the big screen.   Because of the movies, the character arcs and storylines are now freshly in the minds of the public and GRRM's recycled version of it is no longer "new".

This, plus his gardening approach  - which is apparently the need to plant every single vegetable and fruit known to mankind in a single acre of space, despite its usefulness or amount of care required to grow it to harvest - has led us to this point.   Another poster a long time ago remarked that ASOIAF is an homage to everything that GRRM finds interesting...which is why in this "garden" we have jackfruit growing next to purple corn and kohlrabi - i.e. the mishmash of references to other fantasy works, football, the Muppets, old TV shows and comics, British history, etc.   As GRRM's Renaissance Man fascinations grow, his ability to control his "kitchen sink" story shrinks.

 

All that being said though, we will probably discover years from now that the entire ending to ASOIAF is subtly buried in the last 6 Wild Cards books.  LOL

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22 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Best case it will be 8 years after Dance, more likely 9 or 10.  

I'm expecting 8... after all grrm said "Whether WINDS or the first volume of FIRE AND BLOOD will be the first to hit the bookstores is hard to say at this juncture, but I do think you will have a Westeros book from me in 2018… and who knows, maybe two. A boy can dream…"

We are getting F&B this year, Winds is hopefully next year, and hopefully in two volume tomes.

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9 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

All that being said though, we will probably discover years from now that the entire ending to ASOIAF is subtly buried in the last 6 Wild Cards books.  LOL

That wouldn't be such a bad PR idea. Have people go on a worldwide scavenger hunt for TWoW chapters. It would be bigger than Pokémon Go and The Amazing Race combined! The first to find all the chapters and place them in the correct narrative order, as per instructions sealed in a secret envelope provided by the author, wins the grand prize; the job of standing over GRRM with a cattle prod and a whip to make him write ADoS in two years. :whip:

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I really hope we get to see "The cutting room floor of Ice and Fire" one day. Because if GRRM thought in May 2015 that he could have the book finished by the end of October, and in August 2015 figured he could complete it by the end of the year, there must have been a version of TWoW that was close to being finished (missing a couple hundred pages, at most, unless GRRM estimated an unprecedented writing speed), but which for some reason turned out to be imperfect enough to delay its completion by three years. At some point, that almost-finished version must have had so much content scrapped that the four months assumed to be required to complete it grew into three years.

This week, it was thirty months since he made that post, detailing deadlines imposed on him seven months earlier. If the remaining work at one point looked like a four-month job, and it turned out to be a forty-month one, something major must have happened. More than just a slow-down of writing speed, or being busy with travel, or work on other projcects, or a few chapters that needed more polish than one could fit into half a year. Between then and now, he could have been travelling the world for a whole year, devoted a full year to his other projects, and still had twice as much time to spare as the four months between August and New Year's Eve of 2015. The almost-complete 2015 manuscript, at one time looking like it was mere weeks from completion, must have had something major happening to it, a process that's still going on. I really wonder what that version was like, and why it wasn't good enough.

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On 7/28/2018 at 11:35 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

[snip] ...

Also Victarion and Aeron horrible experiences with Euron may have been mentioned or insinuated, say in Asha's POV,  but no we don't just get one of them as point of view but the two!!!  This seems to be rather unbalanced considering that say, the Lannisters, who were there from the beginning and a huge family in terms of the plot get 3 POV in total and Cersei rather later on in the series.  They have, let me count:  5! ... [snip] ... So why this overcrowding of Ironborn POVs???

[snip)

I have a theory on why GRRM added the Victarion and Aeron POVs and I think it has to do with your first sentence above:

It seems that Victarion and Aeron are the spotlights GRRM uses to illuminate Euron and build him up as a major villain without making him a POV himself.

Now I get that you are suggesting why did he not stick with for instance the Asha POV and tell it there. The reason is, I believe, that a second hand mentioning of this stuff by Asha would have had a lesser emotional impact. Someone telling someone elses experiences through hearsay (horrible as they may be) is more removed and thus insulates the reader from the full blast.

If Euron was "just another character" that wouldn't matter. But if we assume that GRRM wants Euron to become one of the top antagonists he may well have felt a more forceful treatment was in order.

I can see the advantages of this method but like you I still have a problem with it:

My problem is that when I as a reader (believe that I) notice that a POV is really only an instrument to enhance another story (Euron's) but goes nowhere in and off itself I feel less motivated to follow it.

Now one can ask why did GRRM choose this indirect approach (telling Euron through Vic and Aeron) instead of telling Euron's story directly. There are several reasons I can think of:

Quite possibly some mysteries would be unveiled too soon if we got Euron's thoughts.

The second possibility is that GRRM went a little overboard with Euron but tries to hide that by telling from a more removed angle. What I mean is that GRRM has claimed that villains aren't really guys who get up in the morning, twirling their moustaches and asking themselves 'what evil can I do today?'. Instead in his view they are the heroes in their own stories.

Euron however seems to be pretty exactly that: A moustache-twirling supervillain who gets up in the morning in order to do the maximum evil possible.

Now what?

I have a suspicion that GRRM - though he knows and has even said that real villains are not like that - secretly has some love for these types of character anyway (his love of superhero stories seems to indicate that too). Since I like superhero stuff myself I find nothing wrong with this. However it is possible GRRM feels a little guilty about this and thus does not dare to reveal Euron too closely. Instead choosing to rather telling about him from a supposedly safer distance 'second hand'.

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6 hours ago, Amris said:

It seems that Victarion and Aeron are the spotlights GRRM uses to illuminate Euron and build him up as a major villain without making him a POV himself.

I agree. There are certain characters that GRRM doesn't seem to want to write from their POV that would seem to require it from a storytelling frame of reference. I would think that Stannis would be a fascinating character to write internally, but we just get him through the impressions of others. Lots of others to be sure, so we get a pretty full picture. I think GRRM is handling Euron in the same way. Aeron is Euron's Davos and Asha and Victarion (and a few other side characters) fill in the rest of the portrait.

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On 8/4/2018 at 6:16 PM, Cas Stark said:

I get the sense he was initially almost writing for himself, he must not have cared that it expanded, but yes book 1 of the trilogy=3 books, which suggests 9 total.  Not 7, not even 8, and he sure didn't speed the story up in books 4 and 5.

Yeah, following the logic of the first 3 books being the first act of the story this should be a 9-volume series. That's why I don't agree with some saying Aegon came out of nowhere because his story would have been book 2 of the trilogy; however, that should mean his story should fill 3 books, just like the Lannister vs Stark conflict (originally book 1). But that's clearly not happening. So the pacing and structure of this series is way off. And there's only 2 more books remaining so he's attempting to include both the 2nd Dance and the war with the others in just two volumes. Why?

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18 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

Yeah, following the logic of the first 3 books being the first act of the story this should be a 9-volume series. That's why I don't agree with some saying Aegon came out of nowhere because his story would have been book 2 of the trilogy; however, that should mean his story should fill 3 books, just like the Lannister vs Stark conflict (originally book 1). But that's clearly not happening. So the pacing and structure of this series is way off. And there's only 2 more books remaining so he's attempting to include both the 2nd Dance and the war with the others in just two volumes. Why?

Because it is actually six volumes, not nine. Books four and five were really one book. One incredibly long, meandering book. I'm thinking that part of his problem is that he can't find a good cut off place again where everyone is in good position. There are arcs that will seem like they just stop mid stride. This is the only reason we have AFfC at all.

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