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Loyal Houses


Corvo the Crow

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As the title suggests, who(is this the correct use for it?) are some of the houses that proved loyal through the course of history? From which region they hail from? Which houses/titles they have been loyal to?

Crownlands: Masseys, Bar Emmons, Celtigars, Velaryons and Crackclaw men proved loyal first to Targaryens for all those hundreds of years and then to Stannis, despite the fact he has, at start, no hope of winning and he somewhat "usurped" Dragonstone from previous holders.

 So, can we say their loyalty is to whomever holds Dragonstone?

 

 

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We have no clue about any of that. Not every rebellious house is attainted or destroyed whenever it tries to rebel and fails. The Peakes rebelled again and again and they are still there.

And smart rebels keep a foot in both camps. There is no reason to believe the history of the Reeds and Starks or the Manderlys and Starks was a history of love and peace and happiness is pretty unlikely in this world. Sure, they likely never tried to supplant the Starks as the rulers of the North, but we do know that there were hard and cruel Stark kings, and there would have been many a war or struggle where this or that Stark pretender or usurper fought against his kin, with various Northern houses (or branches thereof) backing the winner and the loser.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We have no clue about any of that. Not every rebellious house is attainted or destroyed whenever it tries to rebel and fails. The Peakes rebelled again and again and they are still there.

And smart rebels keep a foot in both camps. There is no reason to believe the history of the Reeds and Starks or the Manderlys and Starks was a history of love and peace and happiness is pretty unlikely in this world. Sure, they likely never tried to supplant the Starks as the rulers of the North, but we do know that there were hard and cruel Stark kings, and there would have been many a war or struggle where this or that Stark pretender or usurper fought against his kin, with various Northern houses (or branches thereof) backing the winner and the loser.

Yes, yes Lord Varys. You love to emphasize how little we know about pretty much every topic. Fact is, this is a theory board, and most theories will be based on the little bit we do know. So either we stop theorizing altogether or we decide that based on the hints we have, we can put together a fair picture of events,  until such time as it is disproven.

The oath of the Reed children sound like it could very well be an affirmation of a loyalty that goes back to Rodrik Stark’s first conquest of the Marsh King’s realm.

The loyalty of the Neck also played a great role in the Starks’ ability to repell southron invaders since then.

So no, we don’t have a statement 100% saying the Reeds have been ever loyal, but the evidence would certainly fit with such a deduction. Until proven otherwise.

Similarly the Mandely affirmation of their eternal debt to the Starks makes it sound pretty likely that they have been steadfastly loyal these last 1000 years.

Not everything need be an argument just for the sake of arguing.

 

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10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

or the Manderlys and Starks was a history of love and peace and happiness is pretty unlikely in this world. 

I assume that the Manderlys, having been kicked out of one realm for overreaching, are not likely to make the same mistake again. Whichever Stark king gave them White Harbor seems to have been a pretty clever guy, as outsiders they themselves are never going to be able to rule the north while they are not going to get a better deal from any Stark rival. 

This means that they are always going to be on the Stark side in a civil war or other conflict, even if they try to profit from it as much as possible (such as Wyman's meeting with Bran and Rodrik suggested)

 

7 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

The oath of the Reed children sound like it could very well be an affirmation of a loyalty that goes back to Rodrik Stark’s first conquest of the Marsh King’s realm.

it could also go back to  their fathers, who were best friends. 

On one hand the Crannogmen have little reason to rebel, they are not interfered with, seem to pay little in the way of taxes and also don't seem to have to contribute much military support outside of their region. 

On the other, they were once their own kingdom it is only natural from time to time some prominent crannogmen nobles are going to be pissed at being second class citizens to a kingdom who does not really respect them. In a thousand years they have probably heard their fair share of speeches like the Greatjon gave in agot, who knows if they have ever acted out on it. 

Given that the Lord of the Necks own children have been raised to catch their own frog supper I don't think they are really in much of a threat to challenge the winterfell. 

7 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The loyalty of the Neck also played a great role in the Starks’ ability to repell southron invaders since then.

Pretty certain Moat Cailin is the key role in that. The fact that so many southern invasions have made it, and failed, at MC suggests the Crannogmen are not a super effective defense. 

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4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yes, yes Lord Varys. You love to emphasize how little we know about pretty much every topic. Fact is, this is a theory board, and most theories will be based on the little bit we do know. So either we stop theorizing altogether or we decide that based on the hints we have, we can put together a fair picture of events,  until such time as it is disproven.

No, we actually can shut up about stuff we don't know anything about. We don't have to, though ;-).

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The oath of the Reed children sound like it could very well be an affirmation of a loyalty that goes back to Rodrik Stark’s first conquest of the Marsh King’s realm.

The loyalty of the Neck also played a great role in the Starks’ ability to repell southron invaders since then.

So no, we don’t have a statement 100% saying the Reeds have been ever loyal, but the evidence would certainly fit with such a deduction. Until proven otherwise.

Man, you don't understand. Were the Greens or the Blacks disloyal, or were they both loyal to House Targaryen? They were, but to different branches of said house. And from the point of view of the other branch they were the vilest of traitors.

If there were succession and civil wars in the North then treasonous branches of the Houses Reed and Manderly may have been eradicated, while those loyal to the winner of those struggles might have been rewarded with the lands and titles of the traitors.

The idea that the members of those Northern houses just magically always chose the right side - the side of 'the rightful king' as well as the side of the guy who would win the war - is fitting for a fairy-tale setting but not this series.

However, I'm reasonably confident that neither the Manderlys nor the Reeds are likely to have ever tried to crown themselves.

The idea that the Reeds rule the Neck for 4,000 years is nowhere confirmed, though, nor whether they were the house that bent the knee to the Starks or even the first house to rule the Neck after the last Marsh king gave up his crown. There could have been other houses ruling the Neck in-between, especially since the Reeds are only the first among equals not some great overlords. 

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Similarly the Mandely affirmation of their eternal debt to the Starks makes it sound pretty likely that they have been steadfastly loyal these last 1000 years.

This doesn't the Manderlys didn't involve themselves in schemes and plots to control Winterfell during the various marriages between these two houses. It is easy to be loyal to a house when it is just one dude with a bunch of kids (as it is during the series) and quite another when House Stark has a lot of brothers, uncles, nephews, cousins, etc. to contend with.

I mean, it isn't always as clear who the rightful guy in charge is, no? Not when crowns are at stake, and definitely not in the North where the men eat you alive when you are not strong.

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4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

This means that they are always going to be on the Stark side in a civil war or other conflict, even if they try to profit from it as much as possible (such as Wyman's meeting with Bran and Rodrik suggested)

See above: What when two branches of House Stark fought for control of the North. Do you assume by default the Manderlys knew magically who would win the struggle and who had the right of it in the conflict?

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Pretty certain Moat Cailin is the key role in that. The fact that so many southern invasions have made it, and failed, at MC suggests the Crannogmen are not a super effective defense. 

Nobody credits the crannogmen about keeping invasion forces out of the North.

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1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The simple fact is if the Crannogmen turn against you, then invaders don’t need to pass through Moat Cailin. The Crannogmen can lead them to the secret paths through the Neck, circumventing Moat Cailin altogether.

No, they supposedly know ways how you can get to Moat Cailin to attack it from the sides and not from behind. But you don't need the crannogmen for that, you can also just take the castle the Ironborn way, as Victarion did.

However, chances are pretty bad that either strategy would have worked while Moat Cailin was still a proper castle, manned and held by a sizable garrison.

The crannogmen are no real threat to Moat Cailin, nor is it likely that a properly armed army with armored warhorses and knights can pass through the Neck the crannogmen way. At least not without scouts seeing them. And then - getting an army north of the Neck doesn't you mean you have conquered the North. Many an Andal king would have landed armies in the North by ship, anyway. They were then defeated or retreated, and one actually assumes that the men the Arryns sent to the North after the Seven Kingdoms had formed were more numerous than the small armies of petty First Men and Andal kings.

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1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The simple fact is if the Crannogmen turn against you, then invaders don’t need to pass through Moat Cailin. The Crannogmen can lead them to the secret paths through the Neck, circumventing Moat Cailin altogether.

A few things wrong with this, the big one being is that Robb has never met Howland, has no Crannogmen in his army and seems a little implausible that Ned would tell his children that should any of them foolishly take the majority of their army south and a rival army takes control of the north not to worry, there are secret paths into the north.

Robb is more hoping that these paths exist than actually knowing about them, this seems clear from Glover's reaction to the plan

"I like this plan," said the Greatjon. "I like it well."

Galbart Glover rubbed his mouth. "There are risks. If the crannogmen should fail you . . . "

"We will be no worse than before. But they will not fail. My father knew the worth of Howland Reed."

It is worth noting that this would not be the only time Robb was sure about something that he could not possibly know. 

Robb looked more amused than afraid. "I have an army to protect me, Mother, I don't need to trust in bread and salt.

Secondly Robb's plan still involved attacking Moat Cailin, the majority of his army would still attack it via the south

Three hosts will leave the Twins, but only two will reach Moat Cailin. Mine own battle will melt away into the Neck, to reemerge on the Fever. If we move swiftly once my uncle's wed, we can all be in position by year's end. We will fall upon the Moat from three sides on the first day of the new century

Robb was counting on the Greatjon's attack to distract the ironborn scouts

 Greatjon, you shall lead the van against Moat Cailin. Your attack must be so fierce that the ironborn have no leisure to wonder if anyone is creeping down on them from the north."

 

Moat Cailin is still hugely important even if these secret paths exist considering the Starks are aware of them they will know to guard against them. 

 

The more I think about it the less this makes sense, House Stark is aware of secret entrances into their main defense of the north and they have not done anything to defend themselves from it?  

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8 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Reed. 4000 years

Manderly. 1000 years

Karstark. 700 years

The Umbers and a few others may date back in unbroken loyalty even further than the Reeds, but we don’t know for sure.

 

Did the Reeds succeed the other frog eaters as the dominant frog eating house 4000 years ago? mhmm

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is worth noting that this would not be the only time Robb was sure about something that he could not possibly know. 

Robb looked more amused than afraid. "I have an army to protect me, Mother, I don't need to trust in bread and salt.

Secondly Robb's plan still involved attacking Moat Cailin, the majority of his army would still attack it via the south

 Three hosts will leave the Twins, but only two will reach Moat Cailin. Mine own battle will melt away into the Neck, to reemerge on the Fever. If we move swiftly once my uncle's wed, we can all be in position by year's end. We will fall upon the Moat from three sides on the first day of the new century

 

Robb was safe when he had his army, he got killed the moment he hang his sword in the wall and trusted bread and salt for his security.

And the paths aroud moat Caillin are small, and Robb's plan rellied most on the element of surprise.

Moat Caillin is also easier take from the south but not too easy. Before Ramsey arrive with Reek the Iron borns were able to push back the Dustin and the Ryswell. Surrouding the castle and taking it from both sides was the smart move.

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7 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb was safe when he had his army, he got killed the moment he hang his sword in the wall and trusted bread and salt for his security.

half his army turned on him. if his whole 7k was loyal the smaller Frey army would not have won so easily. 

7 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

And the paths aroud moat Caillin are small, and Robb's plan rellied most on the element of surprise.

they are? by all means quote the text confirming this

 

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We have no clue about any of that. Not every rebellious house is attainted or destroyed whenever it tries to rebel and fails. The Peakes rebelled again and again and they are still there.

And smart rebels keep a foot in both camps. There is no reason to believe the history of the Reeds and Starks or the Manderlys and Starks was a history of love and peace and happiness is pretty unlikely in this world. Sure, they likely never tried to supplant the Starks as the rulers of the North, but we do know that there were hard and cruel Stark kings, and there would have been many a war or struggle where this or that Stark pretender or usurper fought against his kin, with various Northern houses (or branches thereof) backing the winner and the loser.

True

23 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As the title suggests, who(is this the correct use for it?) are some of the houses that proved loyal through the course of history? From which region they hail from? Which houses/titles they have been loyal to?

Crownlands: Masseys, Bar Emmons, Celtigars, Velaryons and Crackclaw men proved loyal first to Targaryens for all those hundreds of years and then to Stannis, despite the fact he has, at start, no hope of winning and he somewhat "usurped" Dragonstone from previous holders.

 So, can we say their loyalty is to whomever holds Dragonstone?

 

 

Loyal to whom?  I am Pro-Targaryen so I will take your question to mean loyal to the Targaryen Dynasty.  Houses Darry, Thorne, Tyrell, Redwyne, Connington are some.

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3 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

True

Loyal to whom?  I am Pro-Targaryen so I will take your question to mean loyal to the Targaryen Dynasty.  Houses Darry, Thorne, Tyrell, Redwyne, Connington are some.

Question is just that; to whom houses that have shown themselves to be loyal have been loyal to. Or to what, as in the given example these houses have been loyal to whoever held dragonstone. In Conquest, Dance, RR and Wot5K

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6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Question is just that; to whom houses that have shown themselves to be loyal have been loyal to. Or to what, as in the given example these houses have been loyal to whoever held dragonstone. In Conquest, Dance, RR and Wot5K

Very well.  So to expand on the above.  Loyalty can be fleeting.  No house wants to come out on the losing end.  The wealthier the house the more they have to lose.  Take House Martell.  They remain loyal to the Targaryens but haven't lifted a finger because they don't want to risk Robert's wrath.  There is no point in fighting a cause that you can't win.   That will all change when Queen Daenerys comes to Westeros with her dragons.  There is nothing like the threat of losing your lands and titles to make a house forget about such things as cultural differences and old alliances.   Loyalty is important and plays a part in the story.  So too do practicality and survival.

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13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

half his army turned on him. if his whole 7k was loyal the smaller Frey army would not have won so easily. 

 they are? by all means quote the text confirming this

  

“There are ways through the Neck that are not on any map, Uncle. Ways known only to the crannogmen - narrow trails between the bogs, and wet roads through the reeds that only boats can follow.”

 

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3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

“There are ways through the Neck that are not on any map, Uncle. Ways known only to the crannogmen - narrow trails between the bogs, and wet roads through the reeds that only boats can follow.”

 

Even Robb does not know that for sure, he is confident of them but when Glover points out that the Cranngmen may let him down Robb just says they will be no worse off if that is the case. Robb, as always, hopes everything will fall into place. 

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On June 22, 2018 at 1:12 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

As the title suggests, who(is this the correct use for it?) are some of the houses that proved loyal through the course of history? From which region they hail from? Which houses/titles they have been loyal to?

Crownlands: Masseys, Bar Emmons, Celtigars, Velaryons and Crackclaw men proved loyal first to Targaryens for all those hundreds of years and then to Stannis, despite the fact he has, at start, no hope of winning and he somewhat "usurped" Dragonstone from previous holders.

 So, can we say their loyalty is to whomever holds Dragonstone?

 

 

The idea they give their loyalty purely upon that of who currently holds a castle even when it's in the disinterest of  themselves  seems far-fetched.Stannis had the Royal fleet at his disposal at the moment he called upon them; enough to get these houses to offer customary tribute for the time being no? These lords are also sworn to the iron throne; unlikely they believe Stannis' claim of twincest, so I don't see why they'd think any alliegence they have to Dragonstone supercedes that of the Ironthrone.

And, I have to say, probably no longstanding house has remained loyal to who they were supposed to for all their history. Not all the lords of a house would have the same sense of ethics. For instance greatjon; fantastically disloyal to House Stark, willing to let Ned die over not getting a position in a battle; doesn't mean his grandfather had a  lack of ethics. 

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