Best historical fiction for HUGE ASOIAF fan...

[Zorral]

Regarding fantasy inspired by roughly the same period of GOT -- I'd forgotten Mary Gentle's Ash: A Secret History.  It's as gritty as one get -- in comparison with Ash, Arya's character looks like dress-up.

A Secret History (in 1999), Carthage Ascendant, Wild Machines, and Lost Burgundy (all in 2000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash:_A_Secret_History

 

[Ran]

Brilliant writer, Gentle. Her 1610: A Sundial in a Grave is also terrific. Ilario is a bit slighter but fun as well, and ties into Ash.

 

[Zorral]

5 hours ago, Ran said:

Brilliant writer, Gentle. Her 1610: A Sundial in a Grave is also terrific. Ilario is a bit slighter but fun as well, and ties into Ash.

 

Thanks!  I haven't read 1610, and I should check it out.

[wolverine]

On 9/1/2018 at 11:53 AM, nah said:

Shogun by James Clavell is really worth reading. The setting is a little different than ASoIaF, but the character work, the worldbuilding, the political scheming and interplay may scratch that TWoW itch.

Shogun: Seconded.  One of my favorite books.  Great ending as well.  Wish there were another in this series.  Tai-Pan also pretty good from Clavell.

Dunnett hard to get into IMO, very dense read, can be very rewarding as well.

Masters of Rome seems to fit well.  

Lover Cornwell's Saxon tales, King Arthur stuff, and even Archer's Tale is alright.

I, Claudius is nothing like GRRM so I don't know if you just want recs of books that inspired him or ones also similar to his writing?

The Walking Drum for light medieval adventure by Louis L'Amour that has a certain nostalgic spot for me (very entertaining).

 

I can't recommend Iguulden at all...

[The Marquis de Leech]

On 5/25/2019 at 1:53 AM, wolverine said:

I, Claudius is nothing like GRRM so I don't know if you just want recs of books that inspired him or ones also similar to his writing?

I, Claudius is one of Martin's more blatant influences, I thought. Tyrion is Claudius, Joffrey is Caligula.

There's also the less-remembered sequel, Claudius the God.

[Zorral]

The best is probably the primary inspiration -- Maurice Druon's The Accursed Kings fiction series. 

Of course, one would not wish to miss the endless fictionalized narrative chronicles of France by Alexandre Dumas!  They will keep a reader reading for decades! considering how little time for reading if left after work, taking care of kids and so on allows.  But it's sure worth it, or so it feels to me.

List of Dumas's books and their chronological arcs of French history are here:

https://www.biblio.com/alexandre-dumas/author/398

For people who love history though, these non-fiction books are even better reads than Druon (who is a pretty darned good historical fiction read):  the biography of Thomas Malory by Christina Hardyment, Malory: The Knight Who Became King Arthur's Chronicler (2005), the  biography of Joanna: The Notorious Queen of Naples, Jerusalem and Sicily (2010) by Nancy Goldstone, and Great and Terrible King: Edward I and the Forging of Britain (2008) by Marc Morris.  Another terrific history - biography in this tradtion is Isabella The Warrior Queen (2014) by Kirstin Downey

They are colorful, vivid and lively histories, that provide a great deal of the immense scope of history that are the 14th and 15th centuries of England, France and much of Europe, the history that is are reflected, pale and lite [stet], in ASOIAF.  Plus the reader learns how things end, and why.  Also the reader will learn there were many very powerful women in Europe's middle ages. 

ETA: Check out this medieval historians' twitter feed here, to see many powerful women, going back even to prior the Norman Conquest:

This is one of the sites that point out too, how out-of-date, incorrect, so much of GRRM's 'history' is.

[SeanF]

It seems to me that Tywin Lannister is pretty clearly Philip the Fair and Cersei, his daughter, Isabella, from The Accursed Kings.  Robert of Artois is someone who combines the qualities of Robert Baratheon and Littlefinger.

[SeanF]

On 5/25/2019 at 6:01 PM, The Marquis de Leech said:

I, Claudius is one of Martin's more blatant influences, I thought. Tyrion is Claudius, Joffrey is Caligula.

There's also the less-remembered sequel, Claudius the God.

I agree.  We even get a version of everyone laughing at Claudius when he weds a woman so much taller than he is, in the wedding of Tyrion and Sansa.

[HexMachina]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

It seems to me that Tywin Lannister is pretty clearly Philip the Fair and Cersei, his daughter, Isabella, from The Accursed Kings.  Robert of Artois is someone who combines the qualities of Robert Baratheon and Littlefinger.

You even get Cersei/Isabella trying to prove adultery on the part of Margaery and her cousins/Marguerite Jeanne and Blanche. And iirc Cersei even tries to get a confession that one of Marg’s cousins was only complicit in the crime, just as with Blanche.

I was struck by those similarities first time I read those books

[BigFatCoward]

Accursed Kings started really well, but fell of a bit of a cliff quality wise.  Not as much as Masters of Rome did with Anthony and Cleopatra.  Actually since GRRM was specifically mentioned that fits quite well, his writing has hardly maintained its initial quality either.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

You even get Cersei/Isabella trying to prove adultery on the part of Margaery and her cousins/Marguerite Jeanne and Blanche. And iirc Cersei even tries to get a confession that one of Marg’s cousins was only complicit in the crime, just as with Blanche.

I was struck by those similarities first time I read those books

The Tour de Nesle affair is certainly the basis of the plot involving Margaery's arrest.

At the time, I though it was utterly stupid for the two squires who were having affairs with the princesses to go around wearing the embroidered purses that Isabella had given, but now I've learned that it was very common for nobles to pass on such gifts to servants.

[Demetri]

Let me echo the recommendations for Ken Follett's "Pillars of the Earth" series. A new one was released somewhat recently so if you like it you have a couple thousand pages to look forward to. Starz (I believe) did a pretty decent adaptation too. 

If you're specifically honing in on historical fiction, Follett is a good one. I like the genre but I'm no expert or great lover of the style (in particular) and I found all of them quite enjoyable. I really like what he does with time both as defining/differentiating and as unifying with his themes, settings and characters.

[Zorral]

Also the series by Sharon Kay Penman that feature the Plantagenets through Richard the Lion Heart.  These are also cited by GRRM as sources.

 

On 5/28/2019 at 10:22 AM, SeanF said:

I was struck by those similarities first time I read those books

Not to mention a version of the Red Wedding (though history going back at least to the Sumerians is filled with guests being locked in at a feast and slaughtered), and so many characters' names, the dwarves, the Big Twins, and so much more.  Best of all, the Banks.  I really liked how Druon made sure to personalize via characters just how instrumental the Banks were, even before Phillip destroyed the Templars and stole their treasure -- and accounts of loans outstanding ....

On 5/28/2019 at 9:24 AM, BigFatCoward said:

Accursed Kings started really well, but fell of a bit of a cliff quality wise. 

Depends on what one looks for in such books.  I liked it very much the final volume was told in a narration by a cardinal to a younger churchman - relative and so much of it -- and the book before it -- have to do with the Avignon papacy, and the families fighting over the throne of the Kingdom of Naples and Sicily.

What I would have liked to have included to a much larger degree in The Accursed Kings series, is how the monarchs dealt with the Black Death.  It's just mentioned and skipped over to resume the wars.  Considering how many died in Spain, France and Italy, and the Kingdom of Naples, perhaps the richest and certainly most populous and 'civilized' court in Europe, never recovered from the first round of the plague and continued to be hit by successive waves -- where in the world did they find the men to continue these wars -- and to feed them?  France lost proportionally more people than either Spain or England too.

So far I haven't dug up a good source that talks about this aspect of the 4th century and the Hundred Years War.

[wolverine]

On 5/25/2019 at 12:01 PM, The Marquis de Leech said:

I, Claudius is one of Martin's more blatant influences, I thought. Tyrion is Claudius, Joffrey is Caligula.

There's also the less-remembered sequel, Claudius the God.

Sure.  I didn't mean it did not inspire GRRM I just meant the writins/style of the books is very dissimilar.

I really don't see Tyrion corresponding to meek, shy, almost a-sexual Claudius though?

[wolverine]

3 hours ago, Demetri said:

Let me echo the recommendations for Ken Follett's "Pillars of the Earth" series. A new one was released somewhat recently so if you like it you have a couple thousand pages to look forward to. Starz (I believe) did a pretty decent adaptation too. 

If you're specifically honing in on historical fiction, Follett is a good one. I like the genre but I'm no expert or great lover of the style (in particular) and I found all of them quite enjoyable. I really like what he does with time both as defining/differentiating and as unifying with his themes, settings and characters.

I can't really recommend Follett.  Very readable but he drives me nuts.  Characters seem to do stupid things out of character to advance the plot and try create false suspense.  

I think I liked the show better.

[Zorral]

14 minutes ago, wolverine said:

I think I liked the show better

Cynthia Nixon as the witchy eviLe scheming mother of the guy who abuses our heroine!

[SFDanny]

On 5/25/2019 at 11:57 AM, Zorral said:

The best is probably the primary inspiration -- Maurice Druon's The Accursed Kings fiction series. 

Of course, one would not wish to miss the endless fictionalized narrative chronicles of France by Alexandre Dumas!  They will keep a reader reading for decades! considering how little time for reading if left after work, taking care of kids and so on allows.  But it's sure worth it, or so it feels to me.

List of Dumas's books and their chronological arcs of French history are here:

https://www.biblio.com/alexandre-dumas/author/398

Thank you! I don't know how a discussion of historical fiction can go on very longwithout a mention of Dumas! It has been many years since I last read the D'Artagnan romances, but I loved every hour devoted to them. From his first encounter with Rochfort to his battlefield promotion to Marshal of France every minute is worth the read. As long as you can stand the never ending tale of equine death as the musketeers ride their steeds well past any animal's endurance. Of course, one cannot be a stickler for historical accuracy, as our four heroes are shown to be responsible for most of the grand events of their day and you get to travel through that history.

Of course, Dumas doesn't stop with D'Artagnan, Athos, Porthos, and Aramis and there is many other novels to fall into if one has the time. Just remember it is all real.

[Demetri]

3 minutes ago, wolverine said:

I can't really recommend Follett.  Very readable but he drives me nuts.  Characters seem to do stupid things out of character to advance the plot and try create false suspense.  

I think I liked the show better.

I thought the show was excellent, personally, but could see other readers finding it to the contrary. Keeping to the source material was somewhat required given the longitudinal value of certain characters (both as legend and as genetic contributors) but it also was a masterclass in how to take a large, somewhat dense book and adapting it to screen in ways that make the medium an enhancement not a burden. Fully agree with you on the possibility of the show being better.

I do have to slightly disagree with you on one of your two points regarding the substance. I didn't have a problem with the actions of characters, but do agree that the handling of suspense left something to be desired. I tend to think that the sense of immersion in a setting that resonated as historical but being imbued with life by exceptionally lifelike characters redeems some of the plot advancement issues. We could have a very decent discussion here, I think, because I bet we're thinking about the same things. But I don't want to derail the thread. I will say that I disagree in general, but absolutely see why you'd lodge such a complaint. I'll simply say that the fact that you felt able to predict the likely response of a character to a certain stimulus suggests that the author is doing something very, very right. Hence why I think reasonable minds can disagree on this point. 

As someone who is a casual fan of historical fiction but a voracious reader, Follett had satisfactory literary quality to outweigh the inevitable shortcomings of any given series by any given author. Subjectivity abounds, but I definitely see it as a valid jumping off point into the genre and found it generally enjoyable. There is also a fair amount of it without a clear drop-off in quality. Certain authors have caused me to perhaps overvalue this quality, but given how many lovers of books of my generation (or even in the current times) read books from past greats with a sense of promised closure. For me (and I think many) we moved from the greats to the contemporary and the concept of solvency in a story dissolved. I consider Follett's handling of his material to be a major point in his favor. 

As a parting thought, I think that he grew a lot as an author within that genre over the course of the series. If memory serves, he was a renowned writer of thriller/spy stories who weirdly pivoted into "Pillars of the Earth." For instance, I thought his most recent book was maybe the best offering in the series but was certainly the most mature entry as an author.

[Demetri]

1 minute ago, SFDanny said:

Thank you! I don't know how a discussion of historical fiction can go on very longwithout a mention of Dumas! It has been many years since I last read the D'Artagnan romances, but I loved every hour devoted to them. From his first encounter with Rochfort to his battlefield promotion to Marshal of France every minute is worth the read. As long has you can stand the never ending tale of equine death as the musketeers ride their steeds well past any animal's endurance. Of course, one cannot be a stickler for historical accuracy, as our four heroes are shown to be responsible for most of the grand events their day and you get to travel through that history.

Of course, Dumas doesn't stop with D'Artagnan, Athos, Porthos, and Aramis and there is many other novels to fall into if one has the time. Just remember it is all real.

So weird that I mentally organized Dumas into a completely different, unknown and unspecified, genre when he so obviously was defining the genre. It almost feels like calling Homer "historical fiction" which is jarring despite being descriptively accurate. It makes me wonder if I've read a ton more historical fiction than I realized.

[Zorral]

19 hours ago, Demetri said:

Dumas into a completely different, unknown and unspecified, genre when he so obviously was defining the genre.

He had a firm grasp of how he perceived the historical fiction work he was doing, and how it had to be organized to work properly.  He paid far more attention to historical factual veracity than he's often given credit for, as he had a mission in mind with these books, a mission that almost as much an objective to be accomplished as selling lots of copies of the newspapers (that he often owned himself -- like Dickens!) with his first serial versions, lots of books from his publishing house, and lots of tickets to the stage performances.