Best historical fiction for HUGE ASOIAF fan...

[Zorral]

Merle, Robert. (2016, in the US). Heretic Dawn, third novel of 13 (published between 1977 - 2003) in the French historical fiction series, Fortunes of France. 

Just yesterday in the library, having no prior knowledge of this series of historical novels, I ran into Heretic Dawn, third title. In French, Paris ma bonne ville, is the title, which gives a very different impression than the one in English. That title is exactly why I passed it by on the shelves for so long -- that and its ugly cover, which looks like yet another one of those fantasy series that look all alike and read all alike.  So I never even bothered to scan the bit of cover text the publisher bothered to provide.  These are done on the super cheap, that's for sure. And that's too damned bad.

These books, colorful, exciting, action-adventure, with a multitude of interesting figures, both fictional and historical, cover the Protestant – Catholic conflicts in Franch during the era of Spain’s Philip II and England’s Queen Elizabeth I, “1547 to 1661, shadowing the European wars of religion of the 16th and 17th centuries.” 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_de_France

Born in 1908, author is now, of course dead.  Evidently these novels began to be translated into English, only in 2014 – probably in response to the GOT enthusiasm, as were Maurice Druon’s series.  Just ran into Heretic Dawn in the library.  When the author was nearly 70, he published the frst title in 1977, The Brethren ( published in the US in 2015); the final novel in the series was published in 2003, when he was 95; the author died in 2004. Unlike here in the US, France treats its writers and intellectuals well.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/sep/20/the-brethren-robert-merle-review-fortunes-of-france-drama-series

The criticism made by the Guardian review is that the book(s?) provide educational disquistions on French history – which is perfect for me!  Also, geographically, Périgord and the capital of Languodoc, Montpellier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/31/books/review/the-brethren-by-robert-merle.html

English publication followed with, so far,  “City of Wisdom and Blood in September 2015.  The third novel was published as Heretic Dawn ... February 2016, and the fourth novel was published ... July 2018 as League of Spies.”

The French call Merle the “Alexandre Dumas of the 20th century.”  There is at least one difference between Merle and Dumas, and that is Merle’s entirely unquestioning, casual startling conviction that beautiful young women of the serving classes in one’s home are there for the delectation and satisfaction of the desires of any of the men in the owner’s family – and that they of course lustily welcome such attention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Merle#Biography

It’s exciting to have another French historical fiction series having long ago finished Druon’s series, The Accursed Kings.

Fortune de France series (1977-2003)

Fortune de France (1977)
En nos vertes années (1979)
Paris ma bonne ville (1980)
Le Prince que voilà (1982)
La violente amour (1983)
La Pique du jour (1985)
La Volte des vertugadins (1991)
L’Enfant-Roi (1993)
Les Roses de la vie (1995)
Le Lys et la Pourpre (1997)
La Gloire et les Périls (1999)
Complots et Cabales (2001)
Le Glaive et les amours (2003) (English: Love and the Sword

[Leofric]

4 hours ago, Zorral said:

Merle, Robert. (2016, in the US). Heretic Dawn, third novel of 13 (published between 1977 - 2003) in the French historical fiction series, Fortunes of France. 

Just yesterday in the library, having no prior knowledge of this series of historical novels, I ran into Heretic Dawn, third title. In French, Paris ma bonne ville, is the title, which gives a very different impression than the one in English. That title is exactly why I passed it by on the shelves for so long -- that and its ugly cover, which looks like yet another one of those fantasy series that look all alike and read all alike.  So I never even bothered to scan the bit of cover text the publisher bothered to provide.  These are done on the super cheap, that's for sure. And that's too damned bad.

These books, colorful, exciting, action-adventure, with a multitude of interesting figures, both fictional and historical, cover the Protestant – Catholic conflicts in Franch during the era of Spain’s Philip II and England’s Queen Elizabeth I, “1547 to 1661, shadowing the European wars of religion of the 16th and 17th centuries.” 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_de_France

Born in 1908, author is now, of course dead.  Evidently these novels began to be translated into English, only in 2014 – probably in response to the GOT enthusiasm, as were Maurice Druon’s series.  Just ran into Heretic Dawn in the library.  When the author was nearly 70, he published the frst title in 1977, The Brethren ( published in the US in 2015); the final novel in the series was published in 2003, when he was 95; the author died in 2004. Unlike here in the US, France treats its writers and intellectuals well.

.....

May have to check these out.  The only book I've ever read by Robert Merle was Malevil.  Which is about a group of friends who survive a Nuclear attack because they were in the wine cellar of a castle in France during the nuclear strike, and then it follows their efforts to survive and rebuild using the castle as their base.     His interest in history is evident in Malevil as his characters use their knowledge of history to help them rebuild. 

[SeanF]

On 5/29/2019 at 7:36 PM, Demetri said:

I thought the show was excellent, personally, but could see other readers finding it to the contrary. Keeping to the source material was somewhat required given the longitudinal value of certain characters (both as legend and as genetic contributors) but it also was a masterclass in how to take a large, somewhat dense book and adapting it to screen in ways that make the medium an enhancement not a burden. Fully agree with you on the possibility of the show being better.

I do have to slightly disagree with you on one of your two points regarding the substance. I didn't have a problem with the actions of characters, but do agree that the handling of suspense left something to be desired. I tend to think that the sense of immersion in a setting that resonated as historical but being imbued with life by exceptionally lifelike characters redeems some of the plot advancement issues. We could have a very decent discussion here, I think, because I bet we're thinking about the same things. But I don't want to derail the thread. I will say that I disagree in general, but absolutely see why you'd lodge such a complaint. I'll simply say that the fact that you felt able to predict the likely response of a character to a certain stimulus suggests that the author is doing something very, very right. Hence why I think reasonable minds can disagree on this point. 

As someone who is a casual fan of historical fiction but a voracious reader, Follett had satisfactory literary quality to outweigh the inevitable shortcomings of any given series by any given author. Subjectivity abounds, but I definitely see it as a valid jumping off point into the genre and found it generally enjoyable. There is also a fair amount of it without a clear drop-off in quality. Certain authors have caused me to perhaps overvalue this quality, but given how many lovers of books of my generation (or even in the current times) read books from past greats with a sense of promised closure. For me (and I think many) we moved from the greats to the contemporary and the concept of solvency in a story dissolved. I consider Follett's handling of his material to be a major point in his favor. 

As a parting thought, I think that he grew a lot as an author within that genre over the course of the series. If memory serves, he was a renowned writer of thriller/spy stories who weirdly pivoted into "Pillars of the Earth." For instance, I thought his most recent book was maybe the best offering in the series but was certainly the most mature entry as an author.

Follett is very readable, and it may seem churlish  to criticise such a popular author, but my main criticism is that his characters are late twentieth century people in medieval costume.  Alienore simply doesn't act as a Countess would, in such a society.  She would never have married someone outside her own class, whatever her circumstances. Nor would she want her son to learn a trade, rather than be an Earl.  Nor would she and her brother simply be left to their own devices, after the arrest of her father.  The pair of them would be far too valuable as hostages, either in the hands of King Stephen, or his enemies 

Philip's story, and the description of the building of the Cathedral, is fascinating, however.

 

[Zorral]

17 hours ago, Leofric said:

May have to check these out.  The only book I've ever read by Robert Merle was Malevil.  Which is about a group of friends who survive a Nuclear attack because they were in the wine cellar of a castle in France during the nuclear strike, and then it follows their efforts to survive and rebuild using the castle as their base.     His interest in history is evident in Malevil as his characters use their knowledge of history to help them rebuild. 

He was a prolific writer, who wrote in many genres about different themes and subjects -- like Dumas, that's for sure!

Those who have criticized Rothfuss for his sex wish fulfillment preposterosities might find the same thing in this series -- women fall all over the narrator of the first group of the series (different evidently in the later books, which aren't yet translated / published in English), no matter what age, class, etc.  They adore him!  They give him money! and presents! etc. But somehow it isn't offensive, or not so offensive, perhaps, within the context of the age?  I dunno -- but there is charm, in the same way that Dumas's characters exhibit charm -- that singular French characteristic that got translated into ballet terminology, as 'ballon.' (Ballet is essentially a French invention too.)

[Joey Crows]

Recently read a great book that is not really Historical Fiction, in that it's a look back at real history done differently as opposed to being a narrative driven story with history as its base, yet it takes the facts and presents them with a decidedly fictional approach. The book is "The Time Traveler's Guide to Medieval England" by Ian Mortimer. Thoroughly fun to read, while still being extremely educational. Mortimer shows us an "on the ground" look at England between 1300 and 1400 from the POV of any one of us today suddenly thrust into medieval England. From architecture and clothing to table manners and the humor of the day, it reads like a combo of travel guide and history book. 

Anyway, just wanted to recommend this book cause I really dug it! I do realize this is a discussion of Historical Fiction, so I will say I love Edward Rutherford's work as a more recent example of the genre as well as the old standouts; Michener and Follett. 

 

[SeanF]

38 minutes ago, Joey Crows said:

Recently read a great book that is not really Historical Fiction, in that it's a look back at real history done differently as opposed to being a narrative driven story with history as its base, yet it takes the facts and presents them with a decidedly fictional approach. The book is "The Time Traveler's Guide to Medieval England" by Ian Mortimer. Thoroughly fun to read, while still being extremely educational. Mortimer shows us an "on the ground" look at England between 1300 and 1400 from the POV of any one of us today suddenly thrust into medieval England. From architecture and clothing to table manners and the humor of the day, it reads like a combo of travel guide and history book. 

Anyway, just wanted to recommend this book cause I really dug it! I do realize this is a discussion of Historical Fiction, so I will say I love Edward Rutherford's work as a more recent example of the genre as well as the old standouts; Michener and Follett. 

 

Yes, it's one of those rare books that's both extremely scholarly, and very readable.

I'd also recommend Kathryn Warner's Edward II blog, which is full of remarkably well-researched articles.  She's a friend of Ian Mortimer, and has written several good history books of her own on 14th century England.

[Zorral]

Another non-fiction medieval England history that is more than worth reading to inform oneself is A Great and Terrible King: Edward I and the Forging of Britain by Marc Morris.  Morris's The Norman Conquest: The Battle of Hastings and the Fall of Anglo-Saxon England is equally good and informative of so much information that most people don't know, even those who think they know English-French medieval history.

[Larry of the Lawn]

On 6/15/2019 at 5:00 AM, SeanF said:

Follett is very readable, and it may seem churlish  to criticise such a popular author, but my main criticism is that his characters are late twentieth century people in medieval costume.  Alienore simply doesn't act as a Countess would, in such a society.  She would never have married someone outside her own class, whatever her circumstances. Nor would she want her son to learn a trade, rather than be an Earl.  Nor would she and her brother simply be left to their own devices, after the arrest of her father.  The pair of them would be far too valuable as hostages, either in the hands of King Stephen, or his enemies 

Philip's story, and the description of the building of the Cathedral, is fascinating, however.

 

As a mason, I was very disappointed after reading Pillars of the Earth.  Friends had promised me pages of stone-porn, instead I found a rape-fest with characters about as compelling as dirt.  I did like when the one woman urinated on the Bible or whatever holy text though, that was pretty rad!

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

As a mason, I was very disappointed after reading Pillars of the Earth.  Friends had promised me pages of stone-porn, instead I found a rape-fest with characters about as compelling as dirt.  I did like when the one woman urinated on the Bible or whatever holy text though, that was pretty rad!

Bad people enjoying raping is a bit of an obsession.  At least he doesn't adopt the D & D line that treats being raped as character -forming.

[Wall Flower]

19 hours ago, SeanF said:

Yes, it's one of those rare books that's both extremely scholarly, and very readable.

I'd also recommend Kathryn Warner's Edward II blog, which is full of remarkably well-researched articles.  She's a friend of Ian Mortimer, and has written several good history books of her own on 14th century England.

I really like the Edward 11 blog and have her Edward 11 biography to read. It was actually a bad novel about Isabella of France that led me to the blog. Edward was such a poorly written caricature in the novel that I went looking for more info.

[Wall Flower]

12 hours ago, Zorral said:

Another non-fiction medieval England history that is more than worth reading to inform oneself is A Great and Terrible King: Edward I and the Forging of Britain by Marc Morris.  Morris's The Norman Conquest: The Battle of Hastings and the Fall of Anglo-Saxon England is equally good and informative of so much information that most people don't know, even those who think they know English-French medieval history.

I've been eyeing this off in my local bookshop but it's only a small paperback with tiny print, so my old eyes might have to settle for the kindle version. I always feel that Edward was one of the inspirations for Tywin Lannister.

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

I've been eyeing this off in my local bookshop but it's only a small paperback with tiny print, so my old eyes might have to settle for the kindle version. I always feel that Edward was one of the inspirations for Tywin Lannister.

He was.  As is his very similar rival, Philip the Fair.  Isabella is the obvious inspiration for Cersei.

[SeanF]

20 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

I really like the Edward 11 blog and have her Edward 11 biography to read. It was actually a bad novel about Isabella of France that led me to the blog. Edward was such a poorly written caricature in the novel that I went looking for more info.

Kathryn Warner has lots of fun at the expense of bad historical novelists.

The best, in the sense of so bad she's good, is Brandy Purdy, who wrote the following stories.

1.  The fictional autobiography of Piers Gaveston, portraying him as a pagan male prostitute whose mother was burnt as a witch (obviously, such a man would be chosen as squire to the heir to the Throne!).

2.  A story about Katherine Howard in which he has a lesbian fling with Ann of Cleves. It contains the immortal lines "I've done what Henry could never do.  I've ridden the Flanders Mare."

"Ja, mein liebchen, und it vos ze best ride of my life."

[Wall Flower]

21 hours ago, SeanF said:

Kathryn Warner has lots of fun at the expense of bad historical novelists.

The best, in the sense of so bad she's good, is Brandy Purdy, who wrote the following stories.

1.  The fictional autobiography of Piers Gaveston, portraying him as a pagan male prostitute whose mother was burnt as a witch (obviously, such a man would be chosen as squire to the heir to the Throne!).

2.  A story about Katherine Howard in which he has a lesbian fling with Ann of Cleves. It contains the immortal lines "I've done what Henry could never do.  I've ridden the Flanders Mare."

"Ja, mein liebchen, und it vos ze best ride of my life."

At least these sound more fun than the book I read! Kathryn Warner did do a rather scathing review of that novel (Isabeau by N Gemini Sasson) but obviously too late to save me from a bad reading experience. I did learn a valuable lesson about trusting Goodreads ratings.

[Mark Antony]

Just randomly checked for a Mirror and the Light release date and its actually coming out March of next year. Hypeeeee

Wolf Hall and Bring up the Bodies are two of my absolute favorites 

[HexMachina]

54 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

Just randomly checked for a Mirror and the Light release date and its actually coming out March of next year. Hypeeeee

Wolf Hall and Bring up the Bodies are two of my absolute favorites 

Maybe the Beeb will finally follow up their Wolf Hall miniseries too!

[Mark Antony]

Just now, HelenaExMachina said:

Maybe the Beeb will finally follow up their Wolf Hall miniseries too!

Hope so. Shit was so well acted

[Zorral]

I have begun the first title in the suite of novels that are a fictionalized biography of Ramses II, by a life-long, French, Egyptologist, Christian Jacq.

Quote

 

The first title is Son of Light, published in 1995.

The story of the greatest Pharaoh in history

The Son of Light (1995)
The Temple of a Million Years Formerly published as The Eternal Temple (1995)
The Battle of Kadesh (1996)
The Lady of Abu Simbel (1996)
Under the Western Acacia (1997)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Jacq#The_Ramses_Series

https://www.simonandschuster.com/authors/Christian-Jacq/1786812

 

[Aldarion]

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/34131.Recommended_by_George_R_R_Martin

[Zorral]

Castles: Their History and Evolution in Medieval Britain (2017), again (A Great and Terrible King; The Norman Conquest), by scholar Marc Morris.