Can you think of a series more complex/immersive than ASOIAF?

[Mwm]

Complex: I wouldn’t consider Malazan because of the lack of firm POV characters...and I hear there’s quite a few inconsistencies. ASOIAF is so complex it could feature alternate realities in an actually viable way that comic books never could. Change one thing, it changes everything into something just as interesting(Ned and Robert living to repel Dany) I’ve never seen a series with that breadth.

Immersive: I’ve never had an experience like reading ASOIAF. The dialogue, the characters... I wouldn’t consider LOTR more so, in that Martin really makes you live it through the characters eyes and it’s so real and raw. I think Dan put it perfectly when he said it’s crack on paper...

You can see the opinion I’m trying to express...any thoughts?

 

[Vaughn]

My reaction is not meant to be trolling but I think I have the opposite take away - the complexity and excessive detail are in aggregate things which degrade the author's ability to actually tell a complete set of stories. I enjoy the books well enough but honestly I skim read through the endless descriptions of the gore or the mud or food or whatever other thing Martin has fixated on at that time. Some characters are great and carry me through reading the chapters with characters like Cersei which have devolved to mustache twirling villain status. This is my basic complaint about so much modern fantasy writing really - it would all be better if you cut 30% out and the authors could learn to live with a slightly slimmer book. 

For example, what makes 'Dune' so great is that there are copious details of the things which are unique to that story and setting but Herbert will throw in a description of the smell and close quarters of the sietch in one paragraph instead of padding it out to a full chapter with repetitive descriptions. And for me it's just as evocative without having to detail a character having to use the bathroom, etc... like Martin would. The story told in that one (fat) book is just as epic and sweeping as whatever it is that Martin is trying to land. 

[Mwm]

10 minutes ago, Vaughn said:

My reaction is not meant to be trolling but I think I have the opposite take away - the complexity and excessive detail are in aggregate things which degrade the author's ability to actually tell a complete set of stories. I enjoy the books well enough but honestly I skim read through the endless descriptions of the gore or the mud or food or whatever other thing Martin has fixated on at that time. Some characters are great and carry me through reading the chapters with characters like Cersei which have devolved to mustache twirling villain status. This is my basic complaint about so much modern fantasy writing really - it would all be better if you cut 30% out and the authors could learn to live with a slightly slimmer book. 

For example, what makes 'Dune' so great is that there are copious details of the things which are unique to that story and setting but Herbert will throw in a description of the smell and close quarters of the sietch in one paragraph instead of padding it out to a full chapter with repetitive descriptions. And for me it's just as evocative without having to detail a character having to use the bathroom, etc... like Martin would. The story told in that one (fat) book is just as epic and sweeping as whatever it is that Martin is trying to land. 

Hey, that’s an extremely viable point-I rather enjoy some of those details, but others might rub me the wrong way on occasion. The children stuff, like Arya’s observations have never been a high point for me, but I’m wondering if we’re having a minconception on complexity.

Complexity for me is the very intricately plotted tapestry, and the “core” world building. I don’t consider description as such, when I say that I mean along the lines of Martin have a different name for bastard in every kingdom.

When I said immersive; I was primarily talking about the dialogue/certain characters. The Bronn and Tyrion scene right after his trial is pure magic for me.

[Corvinus85]

For comparison's sake, what books/series have you read?

[Rhom]

Oh sweet summer child... welcome to the lower levels of the board.  Stick around.  You’ll learn something and you will never venture up into the book/show boards ever again.

[Mwm]

54 minutes ago, Corvinus of Teranga said:

For comparison's sake, what books/series have you read?

Not sure what this has to do with the thread...

Nonetheless; fantasy, historical fiction....?

I can’t think of a mainstream series I haven’t familiarized myself with...

Heres others I’ve loved/liked. I’m not listing stand alone books or books I’ve downright hated.

And these are off the top of my head, if your really that interested I’ll have to check my goodreads page:

Middle-Earth(everything with the fucking name mentioned-even history of middle earth series)

Foundation(all seven, no robots or empire)

Dune(only Herbert’s)

Hyperion

Black Company

Malazan(Only Erickson’s)

The Wheel Of Time(Not all yet)

Conan Stories

Saxon Stories

Once And Future King

Earthsea

Gene Wolfs New Sun

Jack Vance’s Dying Earth

 

[Mwm]

4 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Oh sweet summer child... welcome to the lower levels of the board.  Stick around.  You’ll learn something and you will never venture up into the book/show boards ever again.

Oh? Curious...

[Rhom]

3 minutes ago, Mwm said:

Oh? Curious...

I’ve not clicked up there in at least 8 years.  There’s plenty of great options you will find down here.

Check the recommendation threads.  Some of them are a bit old, but they have good material in there.  Just click through a few pages.  I’ve not had any time for rereads of any series since I started picking up recs here.

Personally, I’ve found that anything by Dan Abraham, Joe Abercrombie, and Mark Lawrence have been recent favorites that have never let me down.

There are so many more.  Many far more complex.  Many with great characters.

And most importantly, many that are now or will one day be complete.  We should all accept that HBO is going to give us the only ending to this series.

[Rhom]

I also recommend the Entertainment thread.  Great TV, movie, and sports discussions with some of the most knowledgeable fans I’ve ever seen collected on the internet.

[Mwm]

4 hours ago, Rhom said:

And most importantly, many that are now or will one day be complete.  We should all accept that HBO is going to give us the only ending to this series.

Don’t I know it...tragic....

I don’t judge the preexisting material on that fact though. I do judge it as a reflection of the authors character , work ethic, and values however.

[Darth Richard II]

Character and values? Cause he writes slow?

[Mwm]

4 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Character and values? Cause he writes slow?

I simply said his writing process is a reflection of his character and values. You are actually the one that is implying the process reflects negatively on such. So...lol

As far as can be inferred based on his lengthy blog musings, he hasn’t been spending much time writing ASOIAF at all; with one of the biggest fan bases in the world waiting nigh on a decade for the next volume.

A television program, with hundreds of millions invested in it, waiting on his next volume...

He has himself stated that he refuses to write away from his home and his ancient computer, yet that has not impeded him in his decision to take excess trips which he details extensively on his blog.  

https://deadline.com/2016/01/outlander-starz-diana-gabaldon-calls-out-george-rr-martin-over-missed-deadline-tca-1201678526/

So yes, I was quite confident with my use in that nomenclature before posting it, thanks very much.

[Darth Richard II]

Haha wow, don’t even know where to start with this one. 

[Mwm]

2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Haha wow, don’t even know where to start with this one. 

Feel free not to bother. I’m not looking to argue against what I have said is my favorite series, seems counterproductive to me, and it is clearly not why I opened this thread. Have a nice evening.

[polishgenius]

I'm not saying you would or should like Malazan because you like aSoIaF because they're really, really different series but I'm puzzled about the suggestion that Malazan is less complex than aSoIaF, or what 'no firm PoV' actually means. Sure, your example of changing any little detail wouldn't necessarily work in Malazan and is a fair valid reason to enjoy aSoIaF more - it's one of the things GRRM does do really well, that balance of things- but I'd argue that that's not got a lot to do with complexity. In fact I'd say it's the opposite- aSoIaF has that quality because although there's a lot of threads it's all ultimately serving two main plots (the political war for the Seven Kingdoms and obviously the Outsiders, one of which is an outside threat without so much balancing going into it), whereas Malazan off the top of my head is serving about six or seven all crashing together.
I'd suggest that what you're enjoying so much isn't necessarily complexity itself but elegance in complexity.

And with that in mind, although his stories aren't as massive, I'd definitely second the recommendation of Daniel Abraham.

[Mwm]

15 minutes ago, Fellaining Da Bruyne said:

I'm not saying you would or should like Malazan because you like aSoIaF because they're really, really different series but I'm puzzled about the suggestion that Malazan is less complex than aSoIaF, or what 'no firm PoV' actually means. Sure, your example of changing any little detail wouldn't necessarily work in Malazan and is a fair valid reason to enjoy aSoIaF more - it's one of the things GRRM does do really well, that balance of things- but I'd argue that that's not got a lot to do with complexity. In fact I'd say it's the opposite- aSoIaF has that quality because although there's a lot of threads it's all ultimately serving two main plots (the political war for the Seven Kingdoms and obviously the Outsiders, one of which is an outside threat without so much balancing going into it), whereas Malazan off the top of my head is serving about six or seven all crashing together.
I'd suggest that what you're enjoying so much isn't necessarily complexity itself but elegance in complexity.

And with that in mind, although his stories aren't as massive, I'd definitely second the recommendation of Daniel Abraham.

Well...Erickson plays very fast and loose with his characters. It’s a jumble of some showing up for a page or more. When your that loose interveaving is out the window for a large amount... There are a few concrete throughout each of the books, but it varies volume by volume. And they take place ages apart.

I would call that a shared universe rather then a long running series.

Regarding elegance, you probably got me there... I can think of a few other complex books I don’t overly care for...

I actually really like Malazan; I just feel like it’s a clusterfuck rather then a long form series...

I gotta try Abraham because of how highly Martin recommendeds him-I just hope it’s not bungled by bias.

[Errant Bard]

Just for reference, are you asking for a Fantasy series (Discworld?), a SFF one (the Baroque cycle?), or any series can do? You know, like Hugo's Les Misérables? Or less literary, like one long lived manga, say, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure?

Series are not that common compared to standalones, aren't they? Would a standalone recommendation work? Would a duology like Duncan's Vellum and Ink work?

[Mwm]

4 minutes ago, Errant Bard said:

Just for reference, are you asking for a Fantasy series (Discworld?), a SFF one (the Baroque cycle?), or any series can do? You know, like Hugo's Les Misérables? Or less literary, like one long lived manga, say, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure?

Series are not that common compared to standalones, aren't they? Would a standalone recommendation work? Would a duology like Duncan's Vellum and Ink work?

I was curious as to the scale, particularly the characters and intricately interwoven plotlines, if ASOIAF is the most complex in those terms because I can’t find another one. I don’t consider Malazan as more so because of reasons I listed, particularly it’s loose with everything, not intricate.

Recommendations are always lovely; don’t particularly care if a series of single novel...

[Errant Bard]

1 minute ago, Mwm said:

I was curious as to the scale, particularly the characters and intricately interwoven plotlines, if ASOIAF is the most complex in those terms because I can’t find another one. I don’t consider Malazan as more so because of reasons I listed, particularly it’s loose with everything, not intricate.

You already said that, and don't take it badly, but you don't actually answer any of my questions.

[polishgenius]

Sure, that's fair. I don't think it's a complexity thing, but setting the semantics aside, that is a key difference in how they tell their stories. I don't think you could tell Malazan if you approached it like GRRM, though- he needs to be able to leap, even within the same scene, to edit what information is coming at you and when, and certainly in the battle scenes he couldn't tell them the way he does if he was limited to a 'one PoV per chapter' structure.

The 'shared universe' characterisation is quite a neat summation of what Malazan actually feels like but the fact that the plots keep running into and directly affecting each other means I'd still say it's pretty definitely a fully-on series. You couldn't read it out of order, and even missing ICE's books you miss a lot of stuff. It's not Discworld, where you legitimately can present it that way.



You definitely do need to read Abraham. It's not bias. Like I say, the series aren't as huge- Long Price in particular isn't a great deal longer as a whole than Storm of Swords is on its own, and even Dagger and Coin - much more similar in style and structure to aSoIaF- is five relatively short (for epic fantasy) books.

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Errant Bard said:

Series are not that common compared to standalones, aren't they? Would a standalone recommendation work? Would a duology like Duncan's Vellum and Ink work?

I loooooooooooove Vellum and Ink... but if OP wasn't fond of the character skipping in Malazan, fuck knows what he's going to make of the character-skipping-actually-no-different-iteration-same-character-wait-now-we're-in-ancient-Syria-what-the-fuck-is-going-on madness of Vellum.