Who will Sansa marry?

[Nevets]

On 7/29/2018 at 12:36 PM, Angel Eyes said:

3. Sandor says that he came up to Sansa's room during the Battle of the Blackwater to rape her, but her song stopped him. He also did put a knife to her throat.

He said that to Arya, who he was trying to anger so she would kill him.  It's not clear if he really intended to harm Sansa.  And considering that he was traumatized and drunk, he may not have known what his intentions were himself at the time.  I will admit that the whole episode is a bit troubling, and Sansa had good reason not to go with him when he left KL.

While I detect a certain fondness for each other, I am ambivalent as to whether it will end up romantic.  I can't quite see them as a happy couple, for some reason.

[Angel Eyes]

29 minutes ago, Nevets said:

He said that to Arya, who he was trying to anger so she would kill him.  It's not clear if he really intended to harm Sansa.  And considering that he was traumatized and drunk, he may not have known what his intentions were himself at the time.  I will admit that the whole episode is a bit troubling, and Sansa had good reason not to go with him when he left KL.

While I detect a certain fondness for each other, I am ambivalent as to whether it will end up romantic.  I can't quite see them as a happy couple, for some reason.

He seems to see her more as an object of pity, not love.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 7/29/2018 at 6:47 PM, Angel Eyes said:

I wouldn't think that having one love interest attempt to rape another is part of a good relationship. Makes me wonder why people like Fifty Shades of Grey.

During the scene at the Blackwater Sandor does not try to rape Sansa. And using hyperbole doesn't strengthen your argument. 

What he does is go to her room; after he has decided to abandon the Lannisters following the incident at the gate with Tyrion attempting to force him back into the fires, where finding her absent he lays down on her bed to wait for her. 

Upon her return she lays on her bed and finds him there, he reaches out for her and  he threatens to kill her if she screams. But the thing is we already know that she won't. Because the author has taken the time to set up their relationship and on several occasions prior he surprises her in a similar way. In fact he does so at their first meeting; when she thinks he is her father, anyway the point is the reader knows there is no threat to Sansa and she immediately calms. They begin to speak and he tells her he is lost. She realises he was sleeping in her bed and wonders what he wanted. That's a big part of the dialogue here, her youth means she isn't aware fully of the physical relationship between man and woman. She knows the mechanics as she lets us know after her wedding. But she has not understanding yet of desire.  Which again is part of her story, it is about her sexual awakening. But right here in this scene she is not awake to that. So she misses much of his innuendo. 

They discuss Tyrion, Sandor wants him burnt in retaliation for him trying to force him back into the fires. 

He says he is going, then and says he is going away from the fires; ie away from all that has hurt him, he says North somewhere, which implies towards her home. So to leave behind his pain he will go to her lands, he's about to ask her to go with him. 

Sansa says the gates are closed and he says not to me, she asks why he came to her room, and he replies that she promised him a song. She doesn't understand this obviously and says let me go you are scaring me. He says everything scares you and asks her to look at him. 

This whole exchange is about facing your fears, and the fact she is too young yet to be with him. he says look at me, and she takes in all the detail of his ruined face and then he declares that no one would ever hurt her again if she were to go with him, he pulls her closer and this is when she thinks he will kiss her. A kiss she later realises she wanted. This becomes the basis for her fantasies, so much so that she convinces herself he did kiss her and she centres that kiss in her sexual awakening. Referring back to it repeatedly and imagining scandalising her peers.  

This is when he mistakes her readying herself to be kissed for her still being unable to look upon his face. And he pulls his dagger.  Now you can act all outraged about that if you like. But that doesn't change the symbolism GRRM has used here and elsewhere in the book with daggers and desire. Nor the fact it is a common writing device. She can't recall the love song that she had sort of promised him earlier, of Jonquil and Florian. But she instead sings him the Mothers song, this coming after she prayed for the Mother to gentle his heart.  After the song he tosses his cloak to her and leaves. She then climbs under the cloak and that in itself is symbolic. Twice he has given her his cloak. Cloaks are an integral part pf westerosi weddings and three is the magic number!  The third time he gives her his cloak will be their wedding in my opinion. 

The cloak is white and spattered with blood. This is representative of the wedding sheet, displayed after a marriage to shwo the brides virginity. Then their are bells ringing out just like in our world where wedding bells are rung, and then she places the cloak in her cedar chest with her summer silks. The chest represents a Hope Chest an American tradition made from cedar and heavily advertised and popularised in GRRM's youth. The idea being that you place items that you hope to use in your married life in it in preparation. Placing it with her summer silks represents hope for the future just as Summer's name does. GRRM has used a hope chest and explained what it is in another B&TB inspired story of his. The Skin Trade. So We know for certain he knows what they are and what he was symbolising in this scene. 

But no where in that scene did Sandor try to rape her. 

ETA: an interesting fact is this. Sansa prayed for Sandor's heart to be gentled, She then sang him the Mothers song a song all about finding a better way, of stilling the rage and the violence, and Sandor is now on the QI being ministered to by the Elder Brother who says The Hound is no more. The hound of course being his fierce persona the one who is full of rage and violence. He's not fully tamed as we see via Stranger's refusal to be gelded. But what this whole thing does imply is that he is no longer consumed by his anger and hatred for his brother. His heart has been gentled just as Sansa asked for. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

He seems to see her more as an object of pity, not love.

Except that when he hears that she has been married to Tyrion he flies into a rage, kills a bunch of people and ends up sobbing and talking about where the heart is begging her sister to end his pain. 

Remember when Loras flew into a frenzy and killed his brothers after Renly's death.....

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 7/29/2018 at 11:11 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Yep, poor Sansa, with her fantasies of princes is now in the clutches of LF.     LF, the owner of brothels.  --- Sansa, the 13 year old orphan fugitive now know as Alynne is safe and secure in the Vale.

And she kinda digs the small man, doesn't she? 

[Clegane'sPup]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And she kinda digs the small man, doesn't she? 

It has been a while (two years) since I read the entire five book uncompleted series.

Off the top of my head I would say in the beginning of the tale Sansa dinna much like LF or are you refering to Tyrion?

Martin's books move slowly. The opening book Sansa was ll years of age. Book five Sansa is 13. If the pace of WoW and DoS keep pace Sansa will be approximately 14-15 years of age at most.

Truthfully I am not much interested in what is transpiring in the Vale. I am under the impression LF is hoarding grain and/or food stuffs. I am also under the impression LF has network of trading ships that carry information be twist Westeros and Bravoss.

Back to Sansa. The girl is dependent upon LF for her well being. Unless there is grand Vale conspiracy to rid the Vale of LF that Sansa gets sucked into. Keep in mind Sansa has participated in the lie concerning the death of Lysa.

Until such time that Lannister is removed from the throne Sansa is the fugitive wife of Tyrion wanted as an accomplice in the death of the King of Westeros.

The Citadel has sent out the white ravens. Winter has arrived.

It is my opinion that brothel owner LF is telling Sansa what Sansa wants to hear when her tells her:

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II      Petyr arched an eyebrow. "When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?"/

I just dunna see LF letting Sansa go easily especially since Sansa reminds him of Cat. BUT then again LF might serve Sansa up if it serves his needs.  I dunna know what martin has in store for Sansa but I would venture to say that given her past experiences it is going to be not pleasant.

LF has told Sansa to seduce Harry. The girl (martin's character) might find herself caught in a precarious position ---- Sansa is the baseborn or bastard child of LF ---- according to the lie that is being spun by LF and Sansa.

 

 

 

[Angel Eyes]

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And she kinda digs the small man, doesn't she? 

It’s more Stockholm, I think. (Definitely not Helsinki)

[Angel Eyes]

On 7/29/2018 at 11:11 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Yep, poor Sansa, with her fantasies of princes is now in the clutches of LF.     LF, the owner of brothels.  --- Sansa, the 13 year old orphan fugitive now know as Alynne is safe and secure in the Vale.

Little girls aren't exactly safe with Littlefinger. Jeyne Poole can tell tales about that.

[Clegane'sPup]

19 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Little girls aren't exactly safe with Littlefinger. Jeyne Poole can tell tales about that.

I can agree with that.

 

This is what I don't understand.

Sansa Lannister is married to Tyrion. Tyrion and Sansa are fugitives.

My main point is ---- Sansa is married.

How does Sansa get unmarried?

One way is her marriage to Tyrion was not consummated meaning it can be set aside by the High Seton.

How does Sansa petition this annulment from the High Septon in KL?

Another way for Sansa to get unmarried is that Tyrion dies and she becomes a widow.

This my dilemma --- until such time that Lannister/Baratheon is removed from the Iron Throne Sansa Stark Lannister is a married fugitive in hiding.

I can brush all that above ^ stuff aside by saying this is a fantasy fictional story and if martin wants to martin can magically push aside Sansa's marital status.      Because Sansa Stark Lannister isn't truly  married.    Because Sansa and Tyrion were not officially married by the old gods in the godswood in front of the heart tree.

If martin wants to do what is written above ^ Sansa is free to marry. BUT until Lannister/Baratheon is removed from the Iron Throne Sansa is still a fugitive.

As it stands Sansa (13 years of age) and companions have descended from the Eyrie to the Gates of the Moon due to the arrival of winter. LF has been keeping Sansa busy helping to plan a tourney and Sansa has been instructed by LF to woo Harold.

Instead of asking who Sansa is going to marry I would be interested in reading what people think happens at this tourney.      What is the outcome of this charade?      What relevance does this tourney have in relation to what is happening in grand scheme of goings on?

I have asked multiple questions. Someone pick one and carry on.

Thanks

 

 

[Angel Eyes]

3 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I can agree with that.

 

This is what I don't understand.

Sansa Lannister is married to Tyrion. Tyrion and Sansa are fugitives.

My main point is ---- Sansa is married.

How does Sansa get unmarried?

One way is her marriage to Tyrion was not consummated meaning it can be set aside by the High Seton.

How does Sansa petition this annulment from the High Septon in KL?

Another way for Sansa to get unmarried is that Tyrion dies and she becomes a widow.

This my dilemma --- until such time that Lannister/Baratheon is removed from the Iron Throne Sansa Stark Lannister is a married fugitive in hiding.

I can brush all that above ^ stuff aside by saying this is a fantasy fictional story and if martin wants to martin can magically push aside Sansa's marital status.      Because Sansa Stark Lannister isn't truly  married.    Because Sansa and Tyrion were not officially married by the old gods in the godswood in front of the heart tree.

If martin wants to do what is written above ^ Sansa is free to marry. BUT until Lannister/Baratheon is removed from the Iron Throne Sansa is still a fugitive.

As it stands Sansa (13 years of age) and companions have descended from the Eyrie to the Gates of the Moon due to the arrival of winter. LF has been keeping Sansa busy helping to plan a tourney and Sansa has been instructed by LF to woo Harold.

Instead of asking who Sansa is going to marry I would be interested in reading what people think happens at this tourney.      What is the outcome of this charade?      What relevance does this tourney have in relation to what is happening in grand scheme of goings on?

I have asked multiple questions. Someone pick one and carry on.

Thanks

 

 

My first guess: the marriage has to be consummated. She can possibly annul it if she can prove it was unconsummated.

My second guess: Littlefinger is trying/will try to get Tyrion assassinated on the side. One man in the right spot, and a good line of sight; I made a reference to Private Jackson a while back.

Now maybe Littlefinger is waiting until Tyrion is dead before having Sansa marry Harry.

I think it was here.

[Clegane'sPup]

31 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

My first guess: the marriage has to be consummated. She can possibly annul it if she can prove it was unconsummated.

My second guess: Littlefinger is trying/will try to get Tyrion assassinated on the side. One man in the right spot, and a good line of sight; I made a reference to Private Jackson a while back.

Now maybe Littlefinger is waiting until Tyrion is dead before having Sansa marry Harry.

I think it was here.

I like it. I ain't clicking the link.

Seriously though you would need to bring some textual information forward that LF has eyes and ears on Tyrion's escapades.

[Angel Eyes]

57 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I like it. I ain't clicking the link.

Seriously though you would need to bring some textual information forward that LF has eyes and ears on Tyrion's escapades.

I’m not saying that he is, but I think he says something when Alayne/Sansa is betrothed to Harry Hardyng. Anyway, I would not be surprised that Petyr is sending people after Tyrion. He’s got just as much reason to have Tyrion killed to further his plans for Sansa.

[Clegane'sPup]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I’m not saying that he is, but I think he says something when Alayne/Sansa is betrothed to Harry Hardyng. Anyway, I would not be surprised that Petyr is sending people after Tyrion.

Because I like to watch old movies, spaghetti westerns being one of the genres I'm gonna give you a

 

[Angel Eyes]

15 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Because I like to watch old movies, spaghetti westerns being one of the genres I'm gonna give you a

 

Did you get my remark about Die Hard?

[Clegane'sPup]

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Did you get my remark about Die Hard?

No, I dinna. You may be like British comedian Lee Mack.

[Angel Eyes]

5 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

No, I dinna. You may be like British comedian Lee Mack.

It was the line about Helsinki Syndrome being mistaken for Stockholm Syndrome. Never heard of Lee Mack.

[Clegane'sPup]

19 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

It was the line about Helsinki Syndrome being mistaken for Stockholm Syndrome. Never heard of Lee Mack.

Okay I have never heard of the Helsinki Syndrome. I did the google search. The below is what the google search provided.

There is, strictly speaking, no such thing as Helsinki Syndrome. The original term (condition) is "Stockholm Syndrome" -- denoting some sort of emotional attachment between kidnapper(s) and kidnapee(s), which often lasts even after the incident.

I just ain't gonna go there.

 

[dmfn]

On 7/3/2018 at 2:45 AM, Faera said:

He's a little too lowkey. Besides, would she really want to marry the cousin of her father's headsman? 

If Sansa if going to pick her own man while also becoming a political mastermind, she ought to find herself a decent match with a man she can wrap around her little finger and reap benefits from an honoured and grateful family. Maybe a second-, third- or fourth-son from one of the Houses of the North, or its nearest neighbours in the Vale or the Riverlands. Someone who has way more to gain from taking the Stark name and being Sansa's consort than trying to make a name for himself and whose family will be thrilled to get off their hands.

IDK, like Edmund Blackwood? Wallace Waynwood? 

How about Edric Storm, King Robert's only acknowledged bastard? With the potential deaths of all the other Baratheon males (that i know of), a legitimized bastard and heir to Storm's End might make a good political match. Her name and rank would lend strength to his otherwise strong claim on the Stormlands. It wouldn't be a first for the Baratheons.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

9 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

This is what I don't understand.

Sansa Lannister is married to Tyrion. Tyrion and Sansa are fugitives.

My main point is ---- Sansa is married.

How does Sansa get unmarried?

One way is her marriage to Tyrion was not consummated meaning it can be set aside by the High Seton.

How does Sansa petition this annulment from the High Septon in KL?

Another way for Sansa to get unmarried is that Tyrion dies and she becomes a widow.

This my dilemma --- until such time that Lannister/Baratheon is removed from the Iron Throne Sansa Stark Lannister is a married fugitive in hiding.

That depends on events. The marriage was not consummated, as you say, so it is annullable by political or religious convenience. Also as you say, having a sympathetic party on the throne is very helpful, but not entirely necessary if the High Septon is of independent thought and action. Right now the High Sparrow is perfect for this as he is a fundamentalist and would hate the scheming involved with the entire affair.

Tyrion doesn't necessarily have to die to end the marriage. Since Sansa only has a limited time to bear children, all they would have to do is prove that he abandoned her with no intention of returning and taking up his lordly duties in regard to heirs. This was used as a perfectly good reason for annulment when no heirs were forthcoming, which was usually blamed on the woman, but in this case Tyrion is obviously at fault for being MIA.

Another way would be for a male Stark heir to show up and claim their rights as head of the family. I'll go ahead and discount Bran for the moment and speculate that Rickon reappears from exile. Since Sansa's marriage was not approved by the male head of the family (or any head for that matter) and was performed under duress by order of the Crown with the Crown acting as head of the family, the Starks could claim that the marriage was unsolicited, unwanted and unlawful. They would be obliged to get Sansa married as soon as possible and pregnant very soon after that to force the issue. Once that occurs, the High Septon would have no choice but to annul the first marriage.

But first, Sansa has to announce herself in order for any of these to occur. If she stays Alayne she will lose everything Stark (unless someone recognizes her by sheer chance), but might achieve the Vale instead.

[dmfn]

On 7/6/2018 at 5:52 AM, Tianzi said:

No, that just makes him not-a-child-rapist.

He still lusted after her, kept seeing her as a romantic option (for example on some occassion when she didn't make fun of him he thought he could love her for that) and his thoughts are more of a guy bitter because of rejection from a woman than not an adult caretaker having problems with a child.

So, yeah, I'd say that any of the adult guys (Tyrion, Sandor, LF) having hots for a 12-yo Sansa is seriously messed up.

Half the dudes in the book want to fuck Denerys.

Look past the modern stigma. If you were likely to die before 50, you probably wouldn't wait till you were 20 to start having sex. 

Biology seems to be the only factor of consideration, not 21st century morality.